Front Page of the OUTLOOK

[tacklebox]

Seems that the Cravers are at it again,this time misinforming the public about CDNV actions in Mountainview Park.
Apparently the gravel paths and 4 foot wide boardwalks were installed to appease us riders,and she's not to happy about it.

This rag has had accuracy in reporting issues from day one.The problem is that it shows up on every voters doorstep in NV unsolicited.

discuss

[Mr Ripper]

only very recently have those boardwalks been altered to allow mountain bikes, before they had stairs And the BS about the gravel path, I am sure every moutain biker on here hates it!

Ironic this shows up the weekend before elections. I bet Bush is behind it

[Team2K]

I thought they were put him to appease her

[Team2K]

http://www.northshoreoutlook.com/por...d=324048&more=

^ Link to story

[Team2K]

relevant Craver quote:

Although all stakeholders - mountain bikers, hikers, natural users - have been invited to provide input in the District's alpine study through a series of public forums, to date Craver believes that the mountain-bike community has been catered to at the expense of other recreational users and the environment.

Everything seems to be geared towards making the mountain bikers happy," she said.

Particularly upsetting to the District resident is the fact that recent trail upgrades at Mountainview Park in Upper Lynn that opens up the environmentally sensitive area, which includes a pond area, to mountain bikers.

"[Mountain biking] doesn't need to be here because of the sensitivity of the area and there's no parking," Craver said.
This past summer, the District made upgrades in the park that resulted from a public process conducted during 2003-04.
The trail upgrades include trail restructuring, drainage and some added boardwalk bridges and ramps for bikers.

Craver said District changes made at Mountainview Park before the completion of the alpine study is "putting the cart before the horse."

She also believes that the District doesn't have an adequate number of staff members or budget to manage the sport of mountain biking.

"Mountain-biking has to be controlled, and run, preferably, by a private enterprise," she said. "It's not a low-impact sport. It basically transforms the forest. It's the highest encroachment on public land."

The sport, she said, has also been transforming her neighbourhood.

Although the District instituted a Residential Parking Only (RPO) bylaw in the area, Craver said District staff rarely enforce the parking bylaw

[Sharon]

Although all stakeholders - mountain bikers, hikers, natural users - have been invited to provide input in the District's alpine study through a series of public forums, to date Craver believes that the mountain-bike community has been catered to at the expense of other recreational users and the environment.

And we applaud democracy at work. The public forums are democracy in action imo. We are not the USA.

Mrs Craver is wrong if she believes we are getting preferential treatment. Sure the District helps us but in large part because we put so much sweat equity into trails. However, I believe we get listened to as much as other user groups.

Particularly upsetting to the District resident is the fact that recent trail upgrades at Mountainview Park in Upper Lynn that opens up the environmentally sensitive area, which includes a pond area, to mountain bikers.

Considering this area has been accessed for the last 10-15 years by Mountain Bikers, longer by Residents (and hikers prior to the parking restriction) I think that these upgrades have done wonders to protect the pond. Users now have a defined route out of Mountain View Park. This would never have happened without Mrs. Craver bringing it up at the meetings discussing parking restrictions on McNair and Mt. Hwy.

It was amazing how few people even knew about Mountain View park before it became a part of that process.

What Mrs. Craver might not realize is that she was probably the biggest factor in moving the District to put gravel paths through what was once wilderness. How ironic that the actions of someone professing to be so pro-environment could cause such a gravel path - that is disruptive to the environment - to be laid.

Its too bad the district had to pay the extra tax payer dollars outside of the Alpine Study to address this issue but I'm sure the District had their reasons.

"Mountain-biking has to be controlled, and run, preferably, by a private enterprise," she said. "It's not a low-impact sport. It basically transforms the forest. It's the highest encroachment on public land."

We totally agree, which is why the NSMBA has been active in working with the district and maintaining the trails for the last 7 years. I'm not sure if you would want to privatize Fromme though...

Could you imagine how many trails would be on Fromme if we weren't around! If there was a private company running mountain-biking in Fromme I bet there would be many more people riding Fromme and many more trails.

I'm not sure Mrs Craver understands the consequences of what she wishes for but then she didn't understand the consequences of her strident views about Mountain View Park.

You do have to admire her passion. Diversity of opinion is alive in North Van I guess

[Sharon]

Two letter to the Editor,
First from Lyle Craver, 2nd from Dave Diplock.

Illegal trail builder damages our forests :
Editor,
Re: "Defending the Watchumacalit" (Letters to the Editor, Oct. 28 issue).
So local mountain bike supporters are outraged District of North Vancouver Parks staff have said "enough is enough" concerning their illicit engineering activities on our hills! What a surprise!
The plain and simple fact is that DNV Parks staff have been extremely tolerant of the antics of our friends in the woods and have given them every latitude imaginable despite years of unsound and unsafe building practices by bikers.
Cutting of live trees, removal of dirt from tree roots thus making them unstable in winds (bikers call this "gold dirt"), "armoring" trails by replacing the earth with stones including through creek beds, creation of numerous jumps and hazards for non-bikers, diverting and re-routing natural water courses are all commonly practiced but environmentally unsound building practices that have been well documented by David Cook and Kevin Bell.
There are in fact very few decisions by DNV Parks staff that have not gone in favour of mountain bikers at the expense of the natural environment, other trail users and neighbourhood residents bordering District woodlands.
Yet other groups face a stone wall when we ask for decommissioning of worn out and environmentally un- sound trails while trails not favoured by bikers are decommissioned instead. It is difficult to feel sorry for bikers when they complain that instead of the score being 99-1 it should be 100-0.
DNV has dropped the ball on not addressing this issue and is racing hard trying to catch up. Unsanctioned trail building of the sort being done in the District Alpine area is not only creating trails but numerous jumps and other hazards to non-bikers.
Just last weekend I encountered a pit where the earth had been removed to create a jump with numerous tire tracks through it. There was no warning of any sort and the illegally built jump narrowed the trail by 80-90 per cent.
The bottom line is that what District taxpayers have is essentially a squatter's situation - you do not have the right to do whatever you want on District owned land (else I would build my own putting green in Kilmer or Carisbrooke Parks).
You particularly do not have the right to create hazards for your fellow citizens and it is especially offensive when this is done on our lands by non-DNV residents such as Mr. Dan Cowan.
DNV Parks staff is charged with the responsibility of keeping District owned lands safe and secure for the coming generations - if we as District taxpayers want a healthy alpine forest for the next generation DNV Parks are the people we count on.
If all we want is subdivided micro-habitats chopped up by unplanned and unsanctioned "trail-building," then all we need to do is continue to tolerate the existing practices.
Mountain bikers constantly claim we should give them special privileges because of their efforts in trail building and maintenance which is ironic given they are the group that does the majority of the damage to the environment. People should not be surprised that groups which do far less damage to the environment make less effort to repair damage they do not cause.
People who are interested in sustainable forests need to speak up against the "Dangerous Dan" Cowans of this world who despoil our forest for their personal pleasure.
Lyle Craver
North Vancouver


Editor,
I'm writing regarding the "Unhappy Trails" front page article in the October 20 issue.
It is disturbing that you feel sensationalizing the poor judgment and misguided actions of one individual is front page news; while it's not until the last page that you report the efforts of over 50 volunteers and collaboration of business, government and a community based association in constructing the Lester Barth Memorial Bridge.
The trail in question and bridge are only a couple hundred of metres from one another, but are miles apart when considering the benefits and legacy to this community.
What message are you providing your readers - that volunteerism and community service are not valued and the unauthorized pursuit of self-interests is rewarded?
"Dangerous Dan" Cowan is not the only one being irresponsible here.
I expect more from a community paper.
David Diplock
North Vancouver
Email letters to the editor to newsroom@ northshoreoutlook.com. Fax to 604-903-1001. Mail to #104, 980 West 1st St., North Vancouver, B.C. V7P 3N4.

[tacklebox]

Sub Divided micro habitats........I guess Lyle hasnt noticed the ski areas way up there.

I work in the ski industry and know that 30 meter wide ski runs have a limited impact on wildlife and local ecosystems......how does a 1 meter wide trail cause more damage?

Its a shame that Lyle cannot distingusigh his opinion from fact in his letter.

[DaveM]

Why can't the NSMBA get a front page interview in the "Outlook". It would be nice to read a fact-based article for a change.

[tacklebox]

that would require un "sensational" "reporting"

[Viper55]

why can't everyone just get along...........

[Team2K]

Let me know if I'm wrong about anything I say. I'm a relative newcomer to the sport, and the related issues, but am a long time North Shore resident, and had the pleasure of growing up with the forests of Fromme Mountain literally as my backyard, and accordingly, I have spent much of my youth and my adult life in these forests. I feel I need to rebut Craver's letter.

My comments are as follows:

Illegal trail builder damages our forests :
Editor,
Re: "Defending the Watchumacalit" (Letters to the Editor, Oct. 28 issue).
So local mountain bike supporters are outraged District of North Vancouver Parks staff have said "enough is enough" concerning their illicit engineering activities on our hills! What a surprise!

I never heard enough is enough, as a general blanket statement. We are talking about one trail here, which really isn't even a trail. From what I understand (and I've never even seen it) it's an elevated structure, and not even built over an existing trail.

The balance of the trails seem to be included in the District Alpine Study for further consideration, and the DNV is working with ALL recreational user groups for a solution.

The plain and simple fact is that DNV Parks staff have been extremely tolerant of the antics of our friends in the woods and have given them every latitude imaginable despite years of unsound and unsafe building practices by bikers.

Since its creation, NSMBA has become a political lobbying group, on top of their mandate to preserve, and maintain the trails and ecology, and to educate other mountain bikers (many of whom unfortunately don't even know the NSMBA exists) of these issues. To say it has been an easy struggle is laughable, and I applaud the efforts of the NSMBA for all the work, dedication and 'sweat equity' that has been put into these trails.

Cutting of live trees, removal of dirt from tree roots thus making them unstable in winds (bikers call this "gold dirt"), "armoring" trails by replacing the earth with stones including through creek beds, creation of numerous jumps and hazards for non-bikers, diverting and re-routing natural water courses are all commonly practiced but environmentally unsound building practices that have been well documented by David Cook and Kevin Bell.

Let me preface my comments to this by stating that I am not an ecologist, and my comments stem only from common sense. Common sense tells me that cutting down, or nailing into live trees is not an ecologically sound practice, and as a Mountain biker and someone who cares about our forest, I do not support the practice AT ALL! I am quite sure the NSMBA would concur. Sure, there are some 'renegades' who haven't taken this into consideration, and unfortunately, it makes the rest of us look bad.

As far as the comment about purposely removing dirt from tree roots is concerned, the NSMBA practice seems to be to fill in these exposed roots with rocks in problem areas to ensure that they are indeed protected. There is no blatant disregard for the tree roots as Carver suggests. Rather, a genuine concern for said roots, and an environmentally sound approach.

Similar to this is the "armouring" of trails. Armouring of trails occurs in areas of the trail that are subject to extraordinary erosion because of the soft and wet characteristics of that section. We don't like riding through such sections, not only because of the erosion it causes, but because its not fun. If a reroute is not possible, the options are to armour the trail with rockwork, or build a ladder bridge over the section. Both situations PREVENT further erosion.

As far as the comments relating to the numerous jumps and hazard for non bikers, in my exerience, as much of the natural terrain as possible is preserved. These natural features become the jumps and hazards to which she refers to, often with the addition of ramps and ladders, using the materials which god provided us with such as deadfall and rocks to make them rideable. It is the nature of our sport.

I can't imagine that very many hikers (and even fewer of the other interest groups) use these mountainbike trails as hiking trails. Those who do, who I have met (ie. trail runners) seem to be able to get along quite well and share a common respect for each other and the trails. As an organization, the NMSBA seems to have the interest of hikers at heart as well. Hiking trails, such as the upper section of Incline on Seymour have been closed to Mountainbikers, because it is known to be used by hikers. In fact, a Corkscrew/Pingu connector is currently being built (with much thanks and praise to Mark for all of his efforts, and the NSMBA for their contributions) to get mountain bikers entirely off the Incline trail. The NSMBA volunteers spent countless hours creating the Empress reroute, as a multi-use trail on Seymour, although this may not be the best example, given the speed that most bikers are coming down this at. Just the other day, I exited Ladies Only via the Baden Powell trail (a multi-use trail) and was pleased to see an NSMBA sign pointing hikers in one direction and bikers in another direction to get back to the fireroad, preventing user conflicts. The idea of the Alpine study seems to be to designate these trails for mountain biking, hiking and multi use. Sounds like a great idea to me!

There are in fact very few decisions by DNV Parks staff that have not gone in favour of mountain bikers at the expense of the natural environment, other trail users and neighbourhood residents bordering District woodlands.
Yet other groups face a stone wall when we ask for decommissioning of worn out and environmentally un- sound trails while trails not favoured by bikers are decommissioned instead. It is difficult to feel sorry for bikers when they complain that instead of the score being 99-1 it should be 100-0.
DNV has dropped the ball on not addressing this issue and is racing hard trying to catch up. Unsanctioned trail building of the sort being done in the District Alpine area is not only creating trails but numerous jumps and other hazards to non-bikers.
Just last weekend I encountered a pit where the earth had been removed to create a jump with numerous tire tracks through it. There was no warning of any sort and the illegally built jump narrowed the trail by 80-90 per cent.

Has their not been a moratorium for several years now prohibiting the building of additional trails, which does not even sanction the maintenance of existing trails? Again, correct me if I'm wrong, but this is my understanding. To me, maintenance includes the armouring of trails, or the building of reroutes or ladder bridges over/around environmentally concerned areas. Perhaps the district's policies are not exactly enforced, per se, but the order gives the DNV the ability to retroactively do what they may to any modifications to the trails since the moratorium was in place, without reproach.

I don't think we are at 100-0, but I think we are on the right track by working WITH the district, and the other recreational interest groups. The hope is that we can all find some common ground and 'get along'.

I sure hope that this all will be resolved by the cumilation of the Alpine Study movement.

The bottom line is that what District taxpayers have is essentially a squatter's situation - you do not have the right to do whatever you want on District owned land (else I would build my own putting green in Kilmer or Carisbrooke Parks).
You particularly do not have the right to create hazards for your fellow citizens and it is especially offensive when this is done on our lands by non-DNV residents such as Mr. Dan Cowan.
DNV Parks staff is charged with the responsibility of keeping District owned lands safe and secure for the coming generations - if we as District taxpayers want a healthy alpine forest for the next generation DNV Parks are the people we count on.
If all we want is subdivided micro-habitats chopped up by unplanned and unsanctioned "trail-building," then all we need to do is continue to tolerate the existing practices.
Mountain bikers constantly claim we should give them special privileges because of their efforts in trail building and maintenance which is ironic given they are the group that does the majority of the damage to the environment. People should not be surprised that groups which do far less damage to the environment make less effort to repair damage they do not cause.
People who are interested in sustainable forests need to speak up against the "Dangerous Dan" Cowans of this world who despoil our forest for their personal pleasure.
Lyle Craver
North Vancouver

I am a taxpayer. I don't feel that I am a squatter. In fact, I feel that I have a right to enjoy the parks in any way that I see fit, as long as I am not being a detriment to the environment, and not stepping on any toes. My taxes, in part, go towards the District's funding of these areasm and I want my concerns to be represented by the governing body. That being said, If the Carvers want to put a putting green in Carisbrooke Park, I would not object. In fact, I'd probably even support it. I played on that playground as a child, and toboganned down its hills. Having a putting green there would have been fantastic. If there was one, I might be a member of a golfing forum today, rather than this one. North Vancouver, however, already has several golf courses. It also has several skate parks. How many mountainbike parks do we have? How many approved, sanctioned mountainbike trails do we have?

Now... let's talk about the influx of non-DNV residents who come and visit our trails. Can you think of anything better for our local economy than those who see the North Shore as a riding destination? Think of the related influx of dollars to the local economy that goes to the bike shops, pubs, restaurants, gas stations and even hotels. Mountainbiking FEULS the local economy. This is a good thing, especially when we have the luxury of special interest groups such as the NSMBA, and the many other volunteers who put in the hard work to make the North Shore what it is to the rest of the mountainbike world. Sure, there will be parking issues, and complaints from local residents, but hopefully the Alpine Study will address and correct all these issues. Now, if only we could find a way for a portion of the spending from these non-DNV resident mountainbikers the to be put back into the trails.

[johnnystuntrider]

I'm actually quite friendly with Lyle (if this is the same guy) and he is a genuine and sincere guy. We haven't really discussed the issue of moutain biking (and I live in Victoria now so I don't run into him), but I do see his point in the letter he wrote. The point about the ski runs vs. mountain bike trails is a good one though... I'll be sure to mention that one to him next time we meet.

I think that it is very hard for people outside of the sport to understand the passion that true mountain bikers have for the enjoyment and preservation of the environment. Our image has been tainted by rockstar dudes who could care less and have very little in the way of courtesy or environmental concerns. It's going to be a long and arduous road for us to overcome this stigma...but the efforts of NSMBA and associated individuals are what keeps the hope alive...

We just really need to try to stay positive, stay involved, and stay in communication with both supporters and opposition... let's do this and ensure that both the environment and mountain biking will thrive in the near and distant future.

Sermon over

[IP FreeLee]

Imagine your surprise when M. Craver and her letter writing campaign makes you have to spend other allocated monies to fix a park that in the same shape as dozens of others in the district, then turns around and stabs you in the back.
I feel for Susan Rogers and District staff who have worked on this project. They have been as fair as possible to the public while forced to appease a squeeky wheel that continues to call councellors and mayors at home as well as fight for their cause through the press.
I do not believe that there is a way to shut Craver up. I have bumped into her and her kind before and you cannot appeal to their sensibilities. I have seen her turn on district staff as quickly as mtb rider's. Case in point, her comment that she thinks that Mountain Veiw should have been included into the Strategic plan and dealt with instead of forcing that path through. Well SHE forced that path through, she harrassed staff and councel until she got what she wanted, now she recants without conscience.
The only way that Craver will go away is if District and press stop listening. The Outlook should be ashamed of themselves for continuing to run edited articles with her. Maybe in the spirit of free speech the Outlook could simply have her write a complete article so that the readership could see her pure insanity and greed instead of a doctored message with blips of provocation giving the illusion she has a balanced arguement/opinion.

[Team2K]

johnnystunrider:

Well said and put!

IPFreeley:

Lyle is a woman? I think you might want to correct your post, I'll delete this when you do. Or maybe I'm wrong....

The only Lyle i've ever heard of used to be married to Julia Roberts