Does Armour = Invincibility?

Smoke · 09-09-2004, 08:03 AM

This thread is growing out of the Mt Washington post. I thought it deserved it's own topic.

What's at issue is the mindset that seems to think that a bit of body armour and such will make it all OK.

Well it won't.

Let's pick up from the last comment:

Quote:

Originally posted by ES-OH-ES
Full face helmets are definatley going to do more good than harm. Chest protectors save lives,

Proof? Please enlighten me. Detail for me the exact injuries that a chest protector actually protects you from.

Broken back?
Broken pelvis?
Ruptured spleen?
Lacerated liver?
Broken collar bone?
Broken femur?

Does a chin guard protect you more from a concussion than a good helmet without one? Possible if you impact squarely on the face. However, the chances of that kind of crash are increased by the decrease in mental acuity experienced by overheating due to wearing too much gear. Bike park? Pretty good idea. Kamloops in 40 degrees? Not so smart. Does a chin guard do anything for a broken neck? Ummmmmm.....no.

A chin guard protects you from a very specific and small set of injuries. On a grand scale, its a very small advantage. For some situations and for some riders, it's a good idea. Racing for example. You'd have to be nuts to race without one. It's a good idea for it to be mandatory, especially for the Pro and Expert classes. Day to day riding is a judgement call. If you fall on your face a lot, I guess you need it. If you're really pretty you might want one. I fell outta the ugly tree a while back, so I'm not too worried.

I've taken one or three people to the hospital before, so I've got my experience to draw from already.

Once again, the point is that your gear does f*ck all. It stops things like cuts and bruises (a big nuisance I admit). I'm not saying don't use it. Just don't think it's a magic wand protecting you from harm. When you step off that edge, you're naked. You'd better be sticking that landing, or you're done.

Saving your life? Only good judgement can do that. If you think that your gear is saving your ass, then you are a statistic waiting to happen.

Late Bloomer · 09-09-2004, 08:14 AM

IMHO, armor is a good thing to have. It's not a cure-all by any stretch of the imagination. On its own, armor will save you from the peg-to-shin tricks (shudders) and the general brushing up upon trees, rocks, ???. Armor in conjunction with proper bailing methods can be very effective in reducing injuries/fatalities.
All the same, as this particular situation dictates, there will always be some vunerable part of your body that is likely not armored up that somehow gets exploited.
I proved this theory a little over a month ago when I chose not to wear my forearm/elbow guards and promptly washed out on a corner and peeled a few layers of skin from unguarded forearms.

Like you're saying, if you are not in control of the situation(s), you're a riding statistic. Always knowing your capabilities and limits is crucial for survival in this 'business'.

IFO hope to leave this world while riding my bike...but not any time soon

the flying moose · 09-09-2004, 08:15 AM

i think armour gives some people a false sense of security. that they will be protected and come away from falls uninjured.

Jaysin · 09-09-2004, 08:29 AM

I agree with James....you buy armour, you think you can huck whatever you want. Its all a mindset, and thats not good, you still have your limits, you are still going to get hurt if you fall, maybe not as bad, but your still going to feel it.

IMHO, Body armour is almost bad for the sport because of the false sense of security it gives you. If you suck without the gear, you still suck with it

sanrensho · 09-09-2004, 08:35 AM

Armor is no replacement for brains and knowing when to ride within your limits.

Having said that, there's a good chance of injury in this sport and no amount of protection will help if you fall the wrong way. Speaking from experience, of course.

Late Bloomer · 09-09-2004, 08:49 AM

I wear armor and know when and where I belong. I more or less use armor to protect flesh more than bone. That is all up to being able to bail properly if and when the time arises. I figure with one less item (flesh) to worry about, I can focus more on the task at hand...riding.

Most people I ride around tend to think they are invincible.

switch · 09-09-2004, 10:10 AM

Good body armor will have chest/abdomen plating and spine protection.

With spine protection, if you take a sharp impact to the spine, and the force will be exterted over a much larger area. That greatly decreases the chance of spinal damage. Plating also decreases piercing and pinpoint blows to vital organs.

Like you said in the other thread, kidney protection would be useful, which I would like to see extended to better peritoneal cavity protection.

Rib protection is also important as it's not the pain of a cracked/broken rib that you're protecting against, but also the broken rib piercing an internal organ.

You wear a big FF helmet, it deters your head from snapping far forward. That's a level of protection that you won't get from an XC helmet (or no helmet), besides the protection you get from a sharp knock to the head.

Helmets and armour doesn't just protect against scrapes, they bleeds off impact energy, and that's a good thing.

hampstead bandit · 09-09-2004, 01:06 PM

the body armour issue is an interesting one

i personally wear full body armour and a full face helmet every time i ride my big bike. The increased speed possible on a long travel bike, and potential crash situations i can get into makes me want to protect myself as best i can.

I recently went to the UK's first Freeride jam, and was shocked how many riders were wearing only dirt jump potty helmets and nothing else, including alot of inexperienced riders just starting to ride the ladder trails.

I was also shocked in Whistler how few riders wore full face helmets or body armour; Josh Bender was the only pro i saw wearing full body armour and when i asked him he said "I like to ride every day, and also if i'm riding and see something i want to go big on, i don't have to go get my armour".

I have helped out with several serious accidents this year, in the UK and 1 in Whistler, including a UK rider who is now sadly paralysed from the shoulders down, for the rest of his life.

This guy was wearing a full face helmet, knee/shin and elbow guards but no chest or spine protection. He chose to leave his Dianese at home, and ended up with 2 punctured lungs after breaking some ribs, in addition to the spinal injury.

Whilst we can't tell if his spinal injury situation would be different if he had worn his Dianese, as he hit his head on the trail, i'm sure he wouldn't have done such serious damage to his lungs with the extra protection of the body armour.

Obviously body armour has its limits, and may not prevent a serious bio-mechnical injury (such as spinal or fractured bones), but from the crashes i have survived or seen other riders survive wearing proper armour, it can make a big difference.

I have definitely "got away" with crashes that could have broken my leg, thanks to Roach FR knee/shins

or getting flipped over and landing on my back 20 feet down the trail on a log, and only getting an abrasion and a sore back thanks to wearing Dianese spinal belt and Fox Airframe "Roost" protector.

Of course there is the argument that armour makes people try more crazy things; that is true for some people.

For myself, i have to go to work to pay my rent and living costs, and would like to ride for years to come. Whatever i can wear than improves my chances of walking away from a slam, i will wear it.

Wearing armour doesn't make me wanna ride crazy stunts or ride beyond my limits, but when riding stuff i am comfortable with i want to make it safer if things do go wrong. Riding stunts with trees everywhere and the wooden stunts themselves, there is alot more danger than racing downhill or dirt jumping

The one big improvement i feel is the use of motocross full-face helmets for freeride.

Alot of the MTB full face don't seem to be much more than XC helmet with fibreglass shell and face guard

the proper MX helmets have substantially thicker shells, much thicker padding and more rigid face guard, these helmets are designed for MX crashes and my Fox Tracer helmet makes me feel safer if i crash and hit my head (which is one important part of body).

Having seen my buddy bail a dirt jump at Woburn Sands, 15 feet to flat and land on his head, and crack his MX helmet down the middle, i will always wear an MX helmet for my free riding.

Sure it's hot wearing the full face and armour sometimes, but it ain't so hot spending months in hospital either

Zedbra · 09-09-2004, 02:14 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Smoke

Once again, the point is that your gear does f*ck all. It stops things like cuts and bruises (a big nuisance I admit). I'm not saying don't use it. Just don't think it's a magic wand protecting you from harm. When you step off that edge, you're naked. You'd better be sticking that landing, or you're done.

Saving your life? Only good judgement can do that. If you think that your gear is saving your ass, then you are a statistic waiting to happen.

I'm with Smoke on this one. Save your life - no. Stop some bad cuts/puntures - yes. Saving your own skin? Only good judgement will do that.

And Smoke - I rode Kamloops in 40 degree heat. The armour was OFF and I was cursing my Troy Lee helmut.

TheGiggler · 09-09-2004, 03:36 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Zedbra
I'm with Smoke on this one. Save your life - no. Stop some bad cuts/puntures - yes. Saving your own skin? Only good judgement will do that.

i agree 100%.

but the full face i hold a little more hope for due to the extra coverage on the back and sides of the head.

and then you have to deal with stuff like a friend who crashed at whistler and has his (roach rally) armor slip down when he crashes and gets a very serious cut right down to the bone. even if you wear it there's no gurantees.

----

anyone ride better without armor?

unless the trail is really challenging for me, i normally ride much better in xc bucket and no armor. more focused and whatnot...

Uncle Duke · 09-09-2004, 04:05 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by statix

anyone ride better without armor?

ony on my sealy posturpedic..

r3volution · 09-09-2004, 04:37 PM

I completely agree with you. Armor is generally only good for protecting you from cuts/bruises. I get a shit load of scratches on my legs from pedal mishaps and I really dont care. My Hoots knee pads actually have saved my knee caps from being shattered a few times though

.

corey@nsmb.com · 09-09-2004, 04:49 PM

I am with Smoke on this one.

Lot's of people think armour makes them invincible, and gives a false sense of security. If I had a buck for every time I heard someone say "oh well, I have my armour on, let's see how it goes".

Armour is good stuff. It stops a lot of cuts and bruises and scrapes and helps you feel dialed for another day of riding when you spill.

However, the crashes that pose a threat of joint injury, broken bones or worse will do so regardless of what kind of gear you are wearing.

Full Face helmets are a good idea for fast, knarly riding, but again, don't trust that helmet to save your life when you are riding on the edge.

The best armour is in your head. Learn how to use it, ride smart and listen to your gut instinct.

Dimes · 09-09-2004, 05:07 PM

So consensus so far seems to be that armour does nothing aside from stop some brusing and cuts...but wear it anyway. Pretty mixed message. If the benefits of armour are so minimal, why not be hardcore, and just spare the expense and go without? If your gonna break your leg anyway, you might as well be comfortable leading up to the crash. Chicks dig scars, right?
While armour can not always save you from a high speed crash, or a fluke accident, what about the effects of smaller less significant crashes? I have a gouge in my helmet and cuts and bruises outlining my elbow pad from a crash this weekend. Without my gear, could this have been a broken elbow and a coma? Don't know, and don't care to find out.
Armour will not save you from significant injuries at any given time, as evidenced by the number of people who are regularly packed off football fields, hockey rinks, motocross pitches, and mountain bike trails. Who knows how many more would be packed off without any protection.
I think that notion that armour does nothing to prevent serious injury is dead wrong, and anyone who is working on the assumption that armour makes them invincible will be a product of natural selection.

Rynee · 09-09-2004, 05:17 PM

Quote:

originally posted by hampstead bandit
the body armour issue is an interesting one

i personally wear full body armour and a full face helmet every time i ride my big bike. The increased speed possible on a long travel bike, and potential crash situations i can get into makes me want to protect myself as best i can.

........
Having seen my buddy bail a dirt jump at Woburn Sands, 15 feet to flat and land on his head, and crack his MX helmet down the middle, i will always wear an MX helmet for my free riding.

Sure it's hot wearing the full face and armour sometimes, but it ain't so hot spending months in hospital either

you speak my words buddy

09-09-2004, 08:14 AM	#2
Late Bloomer Eveil Kenveil Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Seattle, WA - where all the good trails are illegal Posts: 5,196 Rep Power: 29	IMHO, armor is a good thing to have. It's not a cure-all by any stretch of the imagination. On its own, armor will save you from the peg-to-shin tricks (shudders) and the general brushing up upon trees, rocks, ???. Armor in conjunction with proper bailing methods can be very effective in reducing injuries/fatalities. All the same, as this particular situation dictates, there will always be some vunerable part of your body that is likely not armored up that somehow gets exploited. I proved this theory a little over a month ago when I chose not to wear my forearm/elbow guards and promptly washed out on a corner and peeled a few layers of skin from unguarded forearms. Like you're saying, if you are not in control of the situation(s), you're a riding statistic. Always knowing your capabilities and limits is crucial for survival in this 'business'. IFO hope to leave this world while riding my bike...but not any time soon __________________ South Sea-Tac Flowpark Gallery KEEP IT GREEN! This signature is brought to you by the letter "H" and by the number "6"

09-09-2004, 08:35 AM	#5
sanrensho Registered User Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: NV Posts: 7,137 Rep Power: 592698	Armor is no replacement for brains and knowing when to ride within your limits. Having said that, there's a good chance of injury in this sport and no amount of protection will help if you fall the wrong way. Speaking from experience, of course. __________________ "The song of a bird...We used to ask Ennesson to do bird calls. He could do them. How he could do them, and when he perished, along with him went all those birds..."-Return from the Stars, Stanislaw Lem "We just walk around, and sometimes we go out and dance, and then we listen to the environment."-Ralf Hutter, Kraftwerk

09-09-2004, 08:49 AM	#6
Late Bloomer Eveil Kenveil Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Seattle, WA - where all the good trails are illegal Posts: 5,196 Rep Power: 29	I wear armor and know when and where I belong. I more or less use armor to protect flesh more than bone. That is all up to being able to bail properly if and when the time arises. I figure with one less item (flesh) to worry about, I can focus more on the task at hand...riding. Most people I ride around tend to think they are invincible. __________________ South Sea-Tac Flowpark Gallery KEEP IT GREEN! This signature is brought to you by the letter "H" and by the number "6"

09-09-2004, 10:10 AM	#7
switch two foot hucker Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Old Buck Posts: 30,096 Rep Power: 13956917	Good body armor will have chest/abdomen plating and spine protection. With spine protection, if you take a sharp impact to the spine, and the force will be exterted over a much larger area. That greatly decreases the chance of spinal damage. Plating also decreases piercing and pinpoint blows to vital organs. Like you said in the other thread, kidney protection would be useful, which I would like to see extended to better peritoneal cavity protection. Rib protection is also important as it's not the pain of a cracked/broken rib that you're protecting against, but also the broken rib piercing an internal organ. You wear a big FF helmet, it deters your head from snapping far forward. That's a level of protection that you won't get from an XC helmet (or no helmet), besides the protection you get from a sharp knock to the head. Helmets and armour doesn't just protect against scrapes, they bleeds off impact energy, and that's a good thing. __________________ It is easy to dodge our responsibilities, but we cannot dodge the consequences of dodging our responsibilities. - Josiah Stamp Every time I see an adult on a bicycle, I no longer despair for the future of the human race. - H.G. Wells

09-09-2004, 04:37 PM	#12
r3volution Banned Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Canada Posts: 1,478 Rep Power: 203	I completely agree with you. Armor is generally only good for protecting you from cuts/bruises. I get a shit load of scratches on my legs from pedal mishaps and I really dont care. My Hoots knee pads actually have saved my knee caps from being shattered a few times though. __________________ Im black on the inside. FYI: Im blacker than black. bmx>mtb

09-09-2004, 08:29 AM	#4
Jaysin Registered User Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Vernon Posts: 12,215 Rep Power: 909753	I agree with James....you buy armour, you think you can huck whatever you want. Its all a mindset, and thats not good, you still have your limits, you are still going to get hurt if you fall, maybe not as bad, but your still going to feel it. IMHO, Body armour is almost bad for the sport because of the false sense of security it gives you. If you suck without the gear, you still suck with it

09-09-2004, 01:06 PM	#8
hampstead bandit Registered User Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: London, England Posts: 522 Rep Power: 10	the body armour issue is an interesting one i personally wear full body armour and a full face helmet every time i ride my big bike. The increased speed possible on a long travel bike, and potential crash situations i can get into makes me want to protect myself as best i can. I recently went to the UK's first Freeride jam, and was shocked how many riders were wearing only dirt jump potty helmets and nothing else, including alot of inexperienced riders just starting to ride the ladder trails. I was also shocked in Whistler how few riders wore full face helmets or body armour; Josh Bender was the only pro i saw wearing full body armour and when i asked him he said "I like to ride every day, and also if i'm riding and see something i want to go big on, i don't have to go get my armour". I have helped out with several serious accidents this year, in the UK and 1 in Whistler, including a UK rider who is now sadly paralysed from the shoulders down, for the rest of his life. This guy was wearing a full face helmet, knee/shin and elbow guards but no chest or spine protection. He chose to leave his Dianese at home, and ended up with 2 punctured lungs after breaking some ribs, in addition to the spinal injury. Whilst we can't tell if his spinal injury situation would be different if he had worn his Dianese, as he hit his head on the trail, i'm sure he wouldn't have done such serious damage to his lungs with the extra protection of the body armour. Obviously body armour has its limits, and may not prevent a serious bio-mechnical injury (such as spinal or fractured bones), but from the crashes i have survived or seen other riders survive wearing proper armour, it can make a big difference. I have definitely "got away" with crashes that could have broken my leg, thanks to Roach FR knee/shins or getting flipped over and landing on my back 20 feet down the trail on a log, and only getting an abrasion and a sore back thanks to wearing Dianese spinal belt and Fox Airframe "Roost" protector. Of course there is the argument that armour makes people try more crazy things; that is true for some people. For myself, i have to go to work to pay my rent and living costs, and would like to ride for years to come. Whatever i can wear than improves my chances of walking away from a slam, i will wear it. Wearing armour doesn't make me wanna ride crazy stunts or ride beyond my limits, but when riding stuff i am comfortable with i want to make it safer if things do go wrong. Riding stunts with trees everywhere and the wooden stunts themselves, there is alot more danger than racing downhill or dirt jumping The one big improvement i feel is the use of motocross full-face helmets for freeride. Alot of the MTB full face don't seem to be much more than XC helmet with fibreglass shell and face guard the proper MX helmets have substantially thicker shells, much thicker padding and more rigid face guard, these helmets are designed for MX crashes and my Fox Tracer helmet makes me feel safer if i crash and hit my head (which is one important part of body). Having seen my buddy bail a dirt jump at Woburn Sands, 15 feet to flat and land on his head, and crack his MX helmet down the middle, i will always wear an MX helmet for my free riding. Sure it's hot wearing the full face and armour sometimes, but it ain't so hot spending months in hospital either

09-09-2004, 04:49 PM	#13
corey@nsmb.com I want to ride. Join Date: Dec 1977 Location: The Darkside Posts: 10,543 Rep Power: 666	I am with Smoke on this one. Lot's of people think armour makes them invincible, and gives a false sense of security. If I had a buck for every time I heard someone say "oh well, I have my armour on, let's see how it goes". Armour is good stuff. It stops a lot of cuts and bruises and scrapes and helps you feel dialed for another day of riding when you spill. However, the crashes that pose a threat of joint injury, broken bones or worse will do so regardless of what kind of gear you are wearing. Full Face helmets are a good idea for fast, knarly riding, but again, don't trust that helmet to save your life when you are riding on the edge. The best armour is in your head. Learn how to use it, ride smart and listen to your gut instinct.

09-09-2004, 05:07 PM	#14
Dimes Registered User Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Port Alberni, BC Posts: 433 Rep Power: 12	So consensus so far seems to be that armour does nothing aside from stop some brusing and cuts...but wear it anyway. Pretty mixed message. If the benefits of armour are so minimal, why not be hardcore, and just spare the expense and go without? If your gonna break your leg anyway, you might as well be comfortable leading up to the crash. Chicks dig scars, right? While armour can not always save you from a high speed crash, or a fluke accident, what about the effects of smaller less significant crashes? I have a gouge in my helmet and cuts and bruises outlining my elbow pad from a crash this weekend. Without my gear, could this have been a broken elbow and a coma? Don't know, and don't care to find out. Armour will not save you from significant injuries at any given time, as evidenced by the number of people who are regularly packed off football fields, hockey rinks, motocross pitches, and mountain bike trails. Who knows how many more would be packed off without any protection. I think that notion that armour does nothing to prevent serious injury is dead wrong, and anyone who is working on the assumption that armour makes them invincible will be a product of natural selection.

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