Yet another Expresso thread

[cam@nsmb.com]

We are about to do our first Expresso Trail Day, on May 27th along with Digger and the MEC TAP crew, and I wanted to start another thread to get some more input.

Jerry and Digger did a walk through with Graham Knell from the District and the directive that came down afterwards involved removing many of the wood structures, several of which are beyond repair.

We have already received some a lot of feedback in this thread (320 posts worth) but I wanted to focus it a bit more.

We know that we won't be able to please everyone but we'd like to be able to achieve some balance rather than simply doing as we see fit. We'd also love to see those of you with strong opinions coming out to join us on the 27th.

A question I have after a walk through yesterday is, do you care what the trail looks like? There are many sections of this trail that look like Bagdad after Dessert Storm. The trail is often a wide swath with multiple lines, many of them crappy. Does this worry you or do you have no concern about aesthetics while you are riding?

My plan is to post a few images laying out some of the recommendations from Digger, Jerry and Graham. I realize that this transparency may be a serious headache but it aligns with the way we like to conduct ourselves.

Here is the first installment with text from the Trail Assessment.

Problem: 1st feature on Expresso. Stringers are rotten and slats are worn and some are missing.
Solution: Remove hollowed out wood slabs (1st pic) and smooth out line with gold. Remove ladder bridge (2nd pic) and replace with shorter bridge and stringers. (note - this ladder and virtually all of the stunts, were added long after Expresso was first built. This particular ladder, as an example, is a relatively recent addition).





Problem: This is an alternative line to the above and is not doable at present state.
Solution: Put some rocks down and crib it in after.



To reiterate; we are not going to be able to please everyone. Some of the you may lose a line you that is one of your favourites. Our hope is to create a fun, challenging and sustainable line that attracts more riders and takes some of the pressure off the other lines on that flank. Despite Expresso having a group of vocal and passionate fans, it is one of the least trafficked trails after the 5th switchback. This means trails like Ladies, Pipeline, Leppard/Krinkem and Oilcan see more riders and require more maintenance.

Hopefully we have some credibility after our efforts on Dale's as a founding member of TAP, but Expresso is a very different trail.

[CraigH]

Cam, I'm reasonably sure I have pics of when that entrance canoe & ladder were put in. It was a NSMBA trail day about 2004? The quality isn't that great but let me know if you want them for any reason.

The ladder has been rebuilt at least once since then.

[fullmast]

Originally Posted by cam@nsmb.com

Despite Expresso having a group of vocal and passionate fans, it is one of the least trafficked trails after the 5th switchback.

I walked it on Tuesday and was surprised at how much traffic had been on it in the previous 24-48hrs.

It hasn't been one of my favourite trails for some time now and in my own opinion anything and everything that happens to it will be an improvement.

Having said that, I would hope that the skinny with the anodized brake arches could be retained and used/integrated somehow. (signage?)

[clarklewis]

as with the previous TAP efforts, most people will love whatever you do. anything will be better than what's there now.

[Lorien]

Originally Posted by cam@nsmb.com

My plan is to post a few images laying out some of the recommendations from Digger, Jerry and Graham.

Hopefully we have some credibility after our efforts on Dale's as a founding member of TAP, but Expresso is a very different trail.

I don't think there is anyone more credible than this crew when it comes to renovating trails on the North Shore.

[RossputiN]

I love Expresso. For all the woodwork, I'd like to see a 1-for-1 rule; for every damaged/deteriorated wood feature removed, replace it with a similar size/difficulty wood feature. My 2-cents.

[walleater]

Originally Posted by RossputiN

I love Expresso. For all the woodwork, I'd like to see a 1-for-1 rule; for every damaged/deteriorated wood feature removed, replace it with a similar size/difficulty wood feature. My 2-cents.

Despite being a buck toothed Brit who likes 'new school' (LOL) trails, I largely agree with this even though I seemed to have regained 'the fear' when it comes to remotely hard woodwork sections. I know there are inherent maintenance issues, but the Shore needs woodwork.

I might well come along to this, but will be in disguise and will call myself Brenda.

[Jerry-Rig]

The landowner (DNV) wants to get away from wooden structures for liability and maintenace reasons. This is the terms of reference we have to work with. To create a structure it is not as simple or quick as everyone thinks either. NSMB only has 5 days as well as MEC.
When Expresso was originally built, there were no structures.

[Lady Gravity]

pipeline has a fair bit of wood structures. speaking for myself i'd be happy with techy rock sections and less lumber. the old expresso has claimed a fair bit of my blood lol.

TAP is awesome, big props to nsmb for participating. i'd come out, but i'm hoping to get to a trail day a little closer to home that's on the same date.

[Knnn]

I want to see LOTS AND LOTS of rock work.

As mentioned before; I think it would be cool if the builder(s)/NSMBA could track how many hours it took to build the bridge, install sections of rock work or establish and maintain a dirt trail bed and how long each lasted. We may find that building a burly bridge or rocking in a difficult section of trail that takes 20-40 man hours to build but lasts 10-15 years is more 'time effective' than replacing dirt every 1-2 years, or may be not, who truly knows?

[CraigH]

For some history, one of the trail days in 2004:
http://nsmba.ca/traildaypics/espress...sosept1904.htm

Maybe the wooden canoe log goes back to one of the 2002 trail days? If so 10 years of life is good.

[morgman]

Originally Posted by CraigH

For some history, one of the trail days in 2004:
http://nsmba.ca/traildaypics/espress...sosept1904.htm

Maybe the wooden canoe log goes back to one of the 2002 trail days? If so 10 years of life is good.

So, we're not going to do this:

"Rungs were added on this bridge. Debris is left at the side of the bridge to keep people from riding off the bridge."

[Ship-it-fed-ex]

I have been looking into this point for 3 years now and have based my efforts on that alone. From what I have seen and personally done on the shore,squamish and coquitlam I have determined that dirt in a certain instant does stand better in non fall line trail. Yes even rock work will eventually wear away the soils in which hold it together will disperse, especially if the grade is steep no surprise Yes cribbed in sections still count in this. Yes on high brake point areas rock will hold very well after a long period of time but with any trail work it needs maintenance. To think everyone will be braking and riding the exact same line in which the trail was created is just a joke I have seen people trying to force people from braided lines onto rock to make them ride a certain line fail and end up doing what? More maintenance. The masses brains still see a trail bed thats fully armoured as a battlefield and they stay off it. Yes dirt is a heck lot more maintenance but with a trail that is a certain grade I do not see a problem with it. Does that mean rock work is not needed? Hell no it is needed our terrain determins that for sure certain sections need to be armoured but not a whole trail. When a trail is bedded in properly and it uses new standard building techniques it can withstand the masses. Dont think so? Well I have about 20 pages of photos that have worked in the sea to sky corridor and its not as different terrain that we have here. I was once told to never come into a situation with my mind closed because if you do your oppinion will be based on facts someone else created not your own. I am still learning but every situation has a different answer and as a trail builder its my job to figure out what needs to be done to create a sustainable trail not what is right or wrong.

Originally Posted by Knnn

I want to see LOTS AND LOTS of rock work.

As mentioned before; I think it would be cool if the builder(s)/NSMBA could track how many hours it took to build the bridge, install sections of rock work or establish and maintain a dirt trail bed and how long each lasted. We may find that building a burly bridge or rocking in a difficult section of trail that takes 20-40 man hours to build but lasts 10-15 years is more 'time effective' than replacing dirt every 1-2 years, or may be not, who truly knows?

[CraigH]

Originally Posted by morgman

So, we're not going to do this:

"Rungs were added on this bridge. Debris is left at the side of the bridge to keep people from riding off the bridge."

Ya, I chuckled at that too. Hazards don't stop people from riding off something narrow.

[scotter]

I definitely fall into the category of people that love this trail. Honestly, I didn't think the entrance ladder was that bad (I rode the trail on sunday and monday last week), but other than a very brief glance each time I hit the trail to make sure the ladder is actually still there, I haven't looked closely at it in ages. That picture is definitely a little dated, as the missing rung has been replaced.

I really like the idea of restoring the other entrance. I've long looked at that, a little disappointed that the spot isn't being used.

The next spot that needs some work is just a few seconds further down. After that starting ladder, you do a sharp left down some rocks and then a right. After this right is a spot that needs some better drainage. It's rock underneath, but the dirt that's there turns into a mud pit for days after any rainfall.

I'm pretty excited to see how this goes. While I've got a lot of love for E[x/s]presso, I have to admit the last few years haven't been so good to it. That said, other than a few obvious defects, I thought rode pretty well on monday.