hand-made frames?

[nick]

Originally Posted by Dean W

Nick,

I don't feel there is any need to fight about this subject. You obviously hold this topic close to your heart and will fight and defend your ideas and rightly so. They are your thoughts and ideas on the subject.

If you want to make some headway in changing peoples thoughts, don't just disagree with them and say they are wrong, tell them why your views on a subject differ from theirs. Back up you ideas with reasons.

I respect your views on this topic because they are just that, your views. If you explain your views in more detail and give reasons, you may be able to influence my and others views on this subject but without something more to back up your ideas, you will just argue and disagree with others until you are blue in the face.

All I can say without writing an article about it is go see a frame builders shop, see what he does, talk to him. He will change your mind, not me, it's not something you can talk about, you must see it. I'm not trying to fight over anything, I'm just saying that you cant compare a taiwanese (or any other country)production frame and a hand made custom one. That's it, nothing more.

[J-Kwon]

Originally Posted by nick

All I can say without writing an article about it is go see a frame builders shop, see what he does, talk to him. He will change your mind, not me, it's not something you can talk about, you must see it. I'm not trying to fight over anything, I'm just saying that you cant compare a taiwanese (or any other country)production frame and a hand made custom one. That's it, nothing more.

what exactly are you comparing with the taiwanese bikes?
-strength?
-look?
-function?
-design?

[nick]

Originally Posted by nick

What you get is quality, made to measure and service.

this

edit: if you really want to know go see and talk to a buider. I'm telling you he will change your mind, it's so much more.

[DaveM]

will it make my ride any better?

[Tdiddy]

I would offer the same argument to go and visit a taiwanese production shop and talk with the welders there (possibly through a translator?) before making an opinion. I agree the ability for custom geometry/paint is quite appealing, but there are a lot of different manufacturers out there, making the task of finding an ideal geometry fairly easy in my opinion. Especially when it comes to downhill bikes, the range of acceptable geometries is quite small, so finding a specific bike within those requirements isn't too much of a trouble.

And then I guess you have to factor in the build quality vs. cost comparison between custom hand made versus production model. Is the quality difference really that apparent that it's worth the exaggerated cost differences? I'm not arguing it's not, I don't know. I think these are just things that a consumer needs to consider before making the decision to snap up a frame.

[L. Ron Hubbard]

Originally Posted by J-Kwon

what exactly are you comparing with the taiwanese bikes?
-strength?
-look?
-function?
-design?

Souuuul broooo, looooove!

[L. Ron Hubbard]

Originally Posted by nick

I have Yet to see a defect on a independent fab frame. You obviously do not know what you are talking about.

I am willing to bet everything I have that the rate of defects of IF, Canfield, Strong, Dekerf, Tonic Fab, and the other major custom US builders are on average higher than Giant's (just as an example).

Come on. The custom little guys are BOUND to make more mistakes vs. enormous, high tech companies overseas that put a TON of money into R&D and then put together a fully automated process to bring defects to an absolute minimum.

[shorelocal]

I would think a better distinction can be made when the production of the frame is actually completed by the company selling the frame, and not farmed out to an overseas factory. For example, Trek makes their carbon road bikes (and mtn I believe) in their factory in Wisconsin. They actually know what production is, unlike Cervelo for example, who just farm production out to China. Smaller, independent builders (custom and stock) tend to also produce their own frames (Moots, IF, Naked, Dekerf, Vanilla, etc.).

As for quality coming from Asia, it covers all levels of the spectrum. Just look at the pics floating around of the IH Sunday with bondo to see how crap some production can be.

[nick]

Originally Posted by L. Ron Hubbard

I am willing to bet everything I have that the rate of defects of IF, Canfield, Strong, Dekerf, Tonic Fab, and the other major custom US builders are on average higher than Giant's (just as an example).

Come on. The custom little guys are BOUND to make more mistakes vs. enormous, high tech companies overseas that put a TON of money into R&D and then put together a fully automated process to bring defects to an absolute minimum.

If it was, they would be out of business in a flash. I know this for a fact(I'm in the business but not biking), a small production company cant scrap much before they go under.

[ESHER SHORE]

Canfield

not made in USA, made in TW by Pacific Cycles (who also make Banshee / Mythic, Astrix, Niner, etc.)

[Dean W]

This post is going south really fast. I offered my help on avoiding this.

Oh well.

[Ed von Schleck]

Quality of craftsmanship is one thing. A bike that is welded in Taiwan is certainly not of a worse quality than a US-made, Canadian-made or German-made bike.

The thing with a custom, local-made frame is that you actually get an insight into what goes on behind the scenes. You get to meet the people who put a ton of effort into your product and you can tell that they truly care about you being happy with your purchase.

Some Taiwanese welders propably don't care if the customer appreciates the craftsmanship of the new Glory. The dudes who do the entire fabrication in house and by hand propably will. That's the difference.

Whether paying extra for that is worth it or not is a different topic.

[Tdiddy]

I'm almost sorry I started this mess. Can we get back to robots and laser beams?

Serious question though, and one poster alluded to it, are there actually programmable robot welded bike frames? Maybe high production lower quality frames like you would see in an automotive plant, or are the costs too prohibitive?

I'm guessing that once the initial investment was covered, that it wouldn't be too difficult to reprogram for different frames.

[L. Ron Hubbard]

I guess I'd like to sum up my problem with the boutique frame angle: they're more about an aura, or some misguided idea of status. It's not like boutique frames ride better, or last longer, or really anything... I could understand if the boutique stuff was ahead of the curve technology wise, or at least in terms of what riders want (Tonic Fab is a good example of this), but loving a frame essentially because you get to be part of a club if you buy it is silly.

[old_school_n00b]

Country of origin aside, handbuilt frames are only as good as the design process is. Your local fabricator may not be a knowledgeable fitter. The same goes for the shop employee filling out the build sheet to send off to Independent Fabrications, Waterford, etc. Custom bikes should fit like a well-tailored suit, but it seems like there are an awful lot of them running around out there with seatpost/stem/spacer combinations that just ruin them.