hand-made frames?

[Tdiddy]

There seems to be a lot of talk about supporting local companies and hand-made frames being worth the extra money. Can someone show me an example of a non-hand-made frame? Are there companies putting up expenses to build and program robots to build bikes? And will these said robots turn evil and start killing puppies with laser beams?

Or is it that these people praising hand-made north american frames don't consider taiwanese people to have hands?

[zahgurim]

You've obviously never been to Taiwan/China.

Everyone welds with their feet there.

[FullMonty]

Originally Posted by Tdiddy

Or is it that these people praising hand-made north american frames don't consider taiwanese people to have hands?

asian people don't have hands... they're born with a calculator at the end of one arm and chop sticks on the other. duh.

I always laughed at that line of reasoning myself. "Buy an Intense, it's hand made!" Yeah, because the Giant that is consistently welded straight is welded by magic.

[clarklewis]

actually, most taiwanese have laser beams built into their retinas. they just have to think about the frame they want to build, then they go into a trance (looks like a lot of seizing and drooling), someone locks them in a room for an hour or so, and voila - a nice new giant glory is born!

i think "hand made" is being mistakenly used to mean "made by someone who makes enough money doing what they do to support a north american lifestyle". i have no idea if all taiwanese welders make a decent living at it. most local welders don't make as much as they should.

to me, the argument is more about supporting a north american job instead of exploiting asian labor. this is important to some people.

[nick]

Well all I have to say about this is look at a Dekerf, Independent fab, Dean, Strong etc... next to ANY Taiwanese frame and tell me you cant see the difference.

[Mic]

^ There is one?

[L. Ron Hubbard]

Originally Posted by FullMonty

asian people don't have hands... they're born with a calculator at the end of one arm and chop sticks on the other. duh.

I always laughed at that line of reasoning myself. "Buy an Intense, it's hand made!" Yeah, because the Giant that is consistently welded straight is welded by magic.

Wow, welding with chopsticks is impressive!

[L. Ron Hubbard]

Originally Posted by nick

Well all I have to say about this is look at a Dekerf, Independent fab, Dean, Strong etc... next to ANY Taiwanese frame and tell me you cant see the difference.

Yeah, they're a lot more likely to have defects and they cost significantly more. Also they'll be a few years behind the design curve (in general).

The big difference is that people somehow think their American made frames will a) make them better riders, and b) somehow make up for their totally un-American parts specs.

[shirk]

Originally Posted by nick

Well all I have to say about this is look at a Dekerf, Independent fab, Dean, Strong etc... next to ANY Taiwanese frame and tell me you cant see the difference.

That isn't a fair comparison. Kinda like comparing a Ferrari to a Yugo. Yes they are different, but they were intended to be different.

There is high quality artisan product coming from around the world, just as there is low quality product being hacked together around the world.

I am sure there are a number of small builders in Asia that are producing product to the same level as Dekerf, IF, Dean and others, you might just not know it.

A better judgement is to learn if a good living wage for that region is being paid before slagging a company based on the geographic location of it's manufacturing. There are other reasons to locate production in certain regions other than wage, such as access to raw materials and other overhead costs.

[nick]

Originally Posted by L. Ron Hubbard

Yeah, they're a lot more likely to have defects and they cost significantly more. Also they'll be a few years behind the design curve (in general).

The big difference is that people somehow think their American made frames will a) make them better riders, and b) somehow make up for their totally un-American parts specs.

I have Yet to see a defect on a independent fab frame. You obviously do not know what you are talking about.

[shirk]

Originally Posted by nick

I have Yet to see a defect on a independent fab frame. You obviously do not know what you are talking about.

Do you do ALL of their warranty and QC work?

Every product has some issued, nothing is perfect.

[nick]

I'm not debating that, I'm just saying there is a big difference with true hand built bikes and production ones.

Originally Posted by shirk

That isn't a fair comparison. Kinda like comparing a Ferrari to a Yugo. Yes they are different, but they were intended to be different.

There is high quality artisan product coming from around the world, just as there is low quality product being hacked together around the world.

I am sure there are a number of small builders in Asia that are producing product to the same level as Dekerf, IF, Dean and others, you might just not know it.

A better judgement is to learn if a good living wage for that region is being paid before slagging a company based on the geographic location of it's manufacturing. There are other reasons to locate production in certain regions other than wage, such as access to raw materials and other overhead costs.

[Mic]

What I find really interesting is that this issue/topic is coming up every odd month or so. Just sayin'

If Taiwan bikes were as bad as their reputation (at least that is what a few people think), heck, why would companies even go through the hassle and the shipping and all that?

Just take a look at Curtis Bikes from England. For years they were producing frames in their small shop in England, but now they are offering both - hand-made in England and Taiwan-made frames. According to Curtis specs.

I do not really see the issue at hand - and have to agree with Ron L. ....which is kinda odd.

[nick]

Originally Posted by shirk

Do you do ALL of their warranty and QC work?

Every product has some issued, nothing is perfect.

sure but not many leave the shop

[nick]

bottom line is REAL hand made bikes are not for every one (intense and others are production bikes). Usually they are very expensive and you do not get as much technology. What you get is quality, made to measure and service.