Doping: eliminate it or accept it?

[wallyjames]

I believe that the war on doping as it is currently being prosecuted will eventually fail. As a practical matter it is impossible for sporting bodies to control the actions of athletes off the field of play.

Discuss.

[sAFETY]

The only thing more slippery than the slope they're on right now is the one they'll be on if doping is allowed to continue.

[sanrensho]

I believe that the war on doping as it is currently being prosecuted will eventually fail.

Every measure to catch cheating/doping will fail by a certain percentage. Doping, like cheating, can never be eliminated entirely, merely discouraged. The question is, can they catch a sufficient percentage (not necessarily a high percentage) to discourage the majority of riders to think twice about doping.

I think they can do this. Vino's positive test and forthcoming ban, as well as Rasmussen being sacked by his team (with the UCI set to start proceedings against him), are good for the sport in the long term.

"War on doping" is somewhat of a misnomer. It is a continual process of staying ahead of the cheats and cheating methods, bearing in mind that it is human nature to find ways around the system. The system itself can also be improved.

[sAFETY]

"War on doping" is somewhat of a misnomer.

Hehe, as are most "War on ______"s it seems these days.

I think of it like casino gabling. There are always going to be people who try to game the system, but cheating isn't common because the management is so vigilant and VERY tough on culprits when they're discovered.

[sanrensho]

but cheating isn't common because the management is so vigilant and VERY tough on culprits when they're discovered.

Now there's an idea: Pat McQuaid (UCI president) with brass knuckles and Louisville Slugger, and Vino+Rasmussen tied up with ball gags.

[Wayne P]

It shouldn't be accepted. It has to be made socially unacceptable by the circles of people using it.

Remember Becky Scott, the XC skier? Classy.

[gary j]

notice how most of the riders wouldn't call out rasmuson as a cheater. maybe they don't want to look foolish when their turn in the spotlight comes?

[Wayne P]

I would bet that most of the field aren't doped. I know who isn't - David Miller. Notice how when he presumably stopped doping, his results plummeted.

[Six]

I say eliminate doping. I think there are a lot of riders that wont engage in doping not only because it is illegal but for health reasons as well. I think the health reason alone should be enough to eliminate it.

[sanrensho]

notice how most of the riders wouldn't call out rasmuson as a cheater.

Did you do a poll? Care to show me the results of that poll? Other riders didn't accuse him of cheating because Rasmussen wasn't kicked out doping, and there's no evidence of it.

He's been roundly criticized for failing to meeting his testing obligations (evading doping controls).

There was plenty of anger and accusations of cheating among the peloton when Moreni and Vino tested positive.

[KenN]

We're not in Rome, and Le Tour is not the Circus Maximus. We don't expect the competitors to die for our entertainment. That's what doping is about ... risking one's health or even one's life just to win.

Kn.

[Mic]

The question is whether the non-cycling industry will be as interested in the sport as it is now. And another question is whether the level of riding can be compared.

personally I think it sucks, since they are role models (for my 5 year old nephew for example) and what can you tell them? He did drugs to win?

But since we are talking big bucks i do not think that eliminating/banning it will work in the near future.

[nouseforaname]

Riders in the tour have ALWAYS doped - merckx tested positive twice yet remains one of the best known figures - and always will do.

The only people who get caught out are the desperate (Vino, Landis) and the stupid (Moreni). Rasmussen has shown that its possible to be a doper and not suffer the consequences.

The only way to break the dopers is to have more testing and DESTROY the team when one member fails a test. Take Astana like action - remove the whole team, ban them all and see how long the wall of silence lasts. As long as doping is an "individual" act, it will continue. Make it something that all suffer at the hands of and it wont be tolerated by the "clean" riders.

[gary j]

Did you do a poll? Care to show me the results of that poll? Other riders didn't accuse him of cheating because Rasmussen wasn't kicked out doping, and there's no evidence of it.

He's been roundly criticized for failing to meeting his testing obligations (evading doping controls).

There was plenty of anger and accusations of cheating among the peloton when Moreni and Vino tested positive.

ouch! a little harsh don't cha think?

i was merely commenting on interviews with riders. they all sort of evaded making comments about doping but rather talked about how ras was the strongest racer and it was a shame he won't finish.
they didn't seem to want to say, "dopers suck, string them up". which is exactly what i would say if i got beat by a cheater. unless i was cheating too.

[Six]

notice how most of the riders wouldn't call out rasmuson as a cheater. maybe they don't want to look foolish when their turn in the spotlight comes?

I think if anyone thought to ask some of the bigger personalities in the peloton you might have heard something about Rasmussen. Take a look at this Horner's diary from stage 16 (second page)...he diplomatically calls out Rasmussen...

http://www.velonews.com/vntv/

PS: tried to embed the vid but it's not possible on this board if it's not a youtube or google video..

Edit: Not tryin' to be harsh or gang up on ya here Gary...just showing ya (and everyone else) something dude! ;-)

[Bukkake]

We're not in Rome, and Le Tour is not the Circus Maximus. We don't expect the competitors to die for our entertainment.
Kn.

At the highest level of any sport I put my own entertainment over the health of any athlete. They're pro's, their body doesn't belong to them anymore unless they want to go back to being amateurs.

hockey players, cyclists, football players I want them to perform for me and if drugs make em put on a better show then go for it! Juice it up!

[gary j]

that's what i would except to hear from a clean racer.

the disco guys interviewed didn't sound anything like that.



and no worries: i've been called out before.

[sanrensho]

ouch! a little harsh don't cha think?


Well, I've been reading the rider comments from three sites, and I didn't get the same impression at all.

I would say "most of the riders" are in fact very pissed at Rasmussen and not impressed with his trying to evade doping controls. Unlike Vino and Moreni, Rasmussen didn't get sacked for doping...at least not yet.

[Duncan]

I would guess, from personal, anecdotal, unscientific exposure to people who have been involved with road racing at a high level that pretty much everyone at that level has doped, taken EPO, testosterone, HGH or something like that at some point or another. I would feel much better if someone who knows better than me would say its simply not true, but that has been my personal conclusion. D.

[sanrensho]

Rasmussen has shown that its possible to be a doper and not suffer the consequences.


You mean, "It's possible to dope and not turn up a positive test"? Because Rasmussen did suffer the consequences of trying to evade his doping controls.

It's hard to say how Rasmussen would have performed if he had actually taken those four missed tests, but he obviously felt it was important enough to try to evade the controls.

[Uncle Duke]

it'll never be elliminated.

[nouseforaname]

You mean, "It's possible to dope and not turn up a positive test"? Because Rasmussen did suffer the consequences of trying to evade his doping controls.


He was only dismissed after Casani (?) commented on the fact that he spotted Ras in Italy. His team knew he had missed the tests, and they still let him race.

Semantics ? - perhaps, but the fact is his team DID know that he had missed the tests, and they still let him race. So what consequence was there?

[Six]

He was only dismissed after Casani (?) commented on the fact that he spotted Ras in Italy. His team knew he had missed the tests, and they still let him race.

Semantics ? - perhaps, but the fact is his team DID know that he had missed the tests, and they still let him race. So what consequence was there?

Well...because Moo didn't miss the 3rd out of competition control from either the UCI or the Danish Federation there wasn't a legal reason to keep him out just an eithical one. Le Societe would have taken care of the ethical side if they had know in advance. And come on here...do we really think the team management on any PT team, other than the ones with specific anti-doping programs in place (CSC, T-Mobile..), doesn't know if their riders are doping or not? And shit...T-Mobile actually caught guys with theirs.

[Duncan]

He was only dismissed after Casani (?) commented on the fact that he spotted Ras in Italy. His team knew he had missed the tests, and they still let him race.

Semantics ? - perhaps, but the fact is his team DID know that he had missed the tests, and they still let him race. So what consequence was there?

I guess they hoped that Rasmussen wouldn't be the story of the Tour. He is supposed to be a climbing specialist. When he started to dominate the distance and TT stages they might have become nervous. I don't think anything new came out in the last few days. There had been rumbling for days before (the rider's starting line protest, former teamate saying Ras had given him doping paraphenelia to carry, Pat McQuaids statements *days before* about a Rasmussen victory being "bad for the Tour"). It seems like they might have been prepared to let it slip if Rasmussen's performance hadn't amounted to a hill of beans. Face it, not just the riders, but the system is rotten too - coaches, managers (of course nearly all ex-racers themselves), sponsors all seem to be involved as well. D.

[sanrensho]

He was only dismissed after Casani (?) commented on the fact that he spotted Ras in Italy.

I sure hope the team acted on more proof than Cassani's comments. There's that lack of transparency from within the team again.

I guess it'll all come out of the wash when Rasmussen sues Rabobank. Which he says he intends to do.

[Six]

I guess it'll all come out of the wash when Rasmussen sues Rabobank. Which he says he intends to do.


Haha! Of course he is...just like Predictor Lotto is suing Astana and Vino...

Here are the Days of Our Lives....

[trouble]

copied from another message board, so I can't substantiate yet

ANGOULÊME, Jul 27 (CP) - "Colombian Juan Mauricio Soler may be the next rider involved in a doping scandal. Danish media report that the Barloworld rider tested positive after stage fourteen.

Soler, currently the leader in the mountains classification, finished third in that stage. Alberto Contador and Michael Rasmussen came in first and second respectively.

Danish medium BT reports that police are currently raiding Barloworld's Hotel, and a press conference is scheduled for 11am on Saturday."

[wallyjames]

The big problem is that you can't prove a negative. You can prove someone did something, but it's hard to prove they did nothing. That and the fact that doping is a form of cheating that occurs off the field of play makes for a very complicated and seeming murk, untransparent process. Once the question has been asked, "Is that athlete doping?", it can't be unasked. Suspicion, both of individual riders and of the sport in general, can be just as damaging as actual busts.

Cycling is now purging itself and people are going to get hurt in the process. The anti-dope hysteria and accusations that surrounded Operacion Puerto will be nothing compared to the coming year. I'd guess that at least one or two truly innocent riders will be accused and penalized while this mess continues - maybe it's already happened, we'll never know. The Floyd decision will come down any day now and we'll be plunged deeper into the mud.

I still have a philosophical issue with doping. Some methods of increasing performance are deemed to be OK, but others aren't and there seems little logic to my untrained eye. EPO is banned because it boosts red blood cell count, and subsequently oxygen carrying capacity. Likewise with the blood transfusions that Vino and Tyler have been caught for. Sure, I see that this gives a performance advantage, but altitude tents like the one Armstrong used for much of his career produce the same result and they are considered acceptable. If high hematocrit levels are dangerous to health, then altitude tents should be banned too. For that matter, why not ban training at elevation while we're at it?

Lots of athletes, including guys who post on this board, use food and liquid supplements to help boost energy and recovery. Once again the principle of better living through chemistry is prevalent - take the right combination of stuff and you'll be ready to rip tomorrow as well. Where's the difference between that and testosterone? I don't see what the difference is between one guy having some protein shake concoction after a race (legal) and the other guy taking testosterone (illegal). Both want to recover well for the next day's race. Seems that the only difference is, testosterone works (just ask Floyd).

There are confusing signals here. The playing field is in theory level - all the products, legal and illegal, seem to be widely available, just look how many people are using them! Yet not all athletes have access to the same bike equipment - the big teams have budget/sponsorship for the very best and other teams get what they can.