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View Full Version : Big bike vs. small bike...decisions




DaveM
04-17-2007, 05:19 PM
So I've been thinking about selling my Team DH. With the Totem on my Six it has transformed itself into a great do everything bike that I think will more than handle anything I can throw at it.

The things that I ponder about are this:
I will never break the TeamDH no matter how badly I hack it up. The Six would need a sturdier wheelset if it were to be my only bike (presently Singletracks on Deore hubs, with Kenda wire bead tires). The Six is sitting at 39lbs now, and I can pedal it all day long. If I'm going to beef it up a bit, it's likely going to get heavier and at what point have I sacrificed the benefits of a smaller bike to have something reliable enough that I don't have to worry about it. The TeamDH is about 47lbs, and while I can still pedal it anywhere, it's definitely more of a chore.

The Six is definitely strong enough, but will a smaller bike have the long term reliability that I know I have with the TeamDH when doing days at the bike parks and repeated thrashings.

For those that don't know me, I'm around the 200lb mark and smoothness is not a quality I posess. I'm not a big air guy, but am getting more courageous all the time.

Any thoughts out there? Please keep the peanut gallery comments to a minimum. If you have nothing to add, don't post.




Sharon
04-17-2007, 05:25 PM
I'd lighten up the six even more and keep the Team DH.

You won't get the money you think you deserve for it and it will be better in the bike park and for those rides when you needed the added margin of error...

If you want to try out an even lighter bike, I'm demo'ing the Brodie zealot I'd let you take it out for a day!

37lbs/Lyric/pearl - probably a better climber then the six but not as good at descending.

Nothing like have a quiver to suit your moods!

seand
04-17-2007, 05:25 PM
big bikes are for fat people who crash coming off the skinny drops on neds!

Geologyboy
04-17-2007, 05:26 PM
I have the same dilemna as you. I too am 200+ and not smooth. Not a big air guy, but slowly getting better.

I ended up with a 2007 Shore 1. I can't afford two bikes, and this was the happy medium "do everything" bike for a guy my size. In an ideal world I would have a team DH and a Six. It sounds like you are slowly turning your six into the same bike as my Shore.

I don't think there is really a solution to the problem, but rather an amont you are willing to spend. If you want to cut down to just one bike, you are probably going about it in the right way.

seand
04-17-2007, 05:28 PM
I would do as Sharon suggested. Selling bikes is a chore; and a painful one when you see how much less you get for your bike :(

Keep the DH for Cyps, bike parks...or just those days you want to haul arse on a couchy bike!

While I love using my 6/6 everywhere, sometimes having the option for the bigger bike is nice.

If you have the room, let them keep either other company!

BareFootMeshback
04-17-2007, 05:32 PM
Unless you need the $$$ I would follow Sharron's advice, and maybe drop a bit of coin and get the weight down a little more on the Six

DaveM
04-17-2007, 05:35 PM
Yeah it isn't a bad thing to have to look in the garage and have to decide which bike to ride!

The wheelset is likely the only weak link on the Six. Maybe I'll keep an eye out for a good deal on 135mm Hadley. As for the Singletracks, they seem to be pretty sturdy so far, but I'd ideally like something stronger but not heavier. Too much to ask? I guess if the DH bike collects dust all year I can revisit this again next year.

As for shedding weight on the Six, I just bought the Totem last week and love it, so it's not getting any lighter any time soon. There isn't too many other places to shed weight (using DHX Air, Hones, etc.)

DaveM
04-17-2007, 05:38 PM
big bikes are for fat people who crash coming off the skinny drops on neds!

That is just one of many places I've taken personal core samples of the local soil.

TheGiggler
04-17-2007, 05:39 PM
keep the big bike. after a 4-6 months off the big bike, you will likely want to ride it some more on Cypress or at Whistler Bike Park where the big bike is actually an advantage (not so much on Fromme/Seymour IMO). it's so nice to have multiple bikes so that if you ever feel riding is getting stale (or whatever) you can swap bikes and everything is new again.

as for the 6, i would keep it strong. you don't want to lighten it up beyond that point that it's not suitable for abuse on the shore. your 6 looked like a pretty sweet build to me when i saw it.

motion
04-17-2007, 05:53 PM
you might think about adding a pair of crossmax sx's to the six and going tubeless. If you get the mp3 insurance you can ride it like you stole it for two years then replace both bikes with a super duper future bike that you can race xc dh and road on.

biggles604
04-17-2007, 08:32 PM
Dave, as I mentioned this weekend, When I go riding, I have a hard time justifying taking the a-line out (It has 1 ride on it!) because the Six is so much more fun for just about everything, BUT, when Whistler opens, I think that the big bike will come back into it's own.
I plan on building up a burly set of wheels for the days I feel like hitting Eagle or Whistler on my Six, but you've seen what I can do on what is essentially XC rims, the Six will definitely take anything that you can throw at it.

thewwkayaker
04-17-2007, 09:47 PM
I've moved to an all around bike (Nomad with 1.5HT running Totem) instead of my usual 3 bikes because I like to travel (in BC) alot and I end up wishing I had brought the other bikes for different rides. Taking all 3 (or even 2) means worrying about the bike(s) you aren't riding. Having one bike light enough to climb and do slower technical stuff but with enough cush (6.5 rear and 7 front) to still be fun at various bike parks means I get almost the best of having two bikes without the worry.Trying to decide which bike to take on a trip that will have a mix of all types of riding is now easy. I still have another bike that is an all around bike the wife uses, or when my bro visits, or if my main bike is under repair.

Uncle Duke
04-17-2007, 11:26 PM
dave im in your exact same boat. im riding a six w a 66 rc2x. def finding this setup to be very capable. that leaves me a bigger bike in the garage. what to do w the 2003 team ns and shiver? Ive decided to keep it as like sharon said you get nothing on resale, and also I will use it in the winter like I did this yr. bag on it while its cruddy out and then you have 6 months to fix everything that got broken and get it ready for the next winter season :)...

on a side note , I forget which six you are on. I have the 2005 that you scoped for me.. it came stock w a 2005 66vf. i recently put on the 2006 66 rc2x. it's like a whole new bike and for the better!!!!. that vf was way too high. this bike now is a mean machine,that I can pedal all day..IMO the perfect bike has been found and its in my bsmnt!!!!..can you hear that growl? that's my bike down in the basement.!!

gotham
04-17-2007, 11:51 PM
Not trying to hijack the thread but I guess I don't understand what's wrong with using a Six at Whistler?

Is there that big of a difference in travel/feel at the park?

the Master Plan Dan
04-17-2007, 11:58 PM
I'd lighten up the six even more and keep the Team DH.

You won't get the money you think you deserve for it and it will be better in the bike park and for those rides when you needed the added margin of error...

If you want to try out an even lighter bike, I'm demo'ing the Brodie zealot I'd let you take it out for a day!

37lbs/Lyric/pearl - probably a better climber then the six but not as good at descending.

Nothing like have a quiver to suit your moods!

I rode/ran that bike... when I took it for a spin after, it was a very capable bike.

I am in the same boat, go to a lighter... shorter travel bike and keep the Big bike (mine ain't so big) for the days when I want to go big.

I am even entertaining the idea of a hardtail... Knolly has their new one coming out... the Free Radical, and while it is a frame only... it sure looks nice!

I mean if you have seen "one of their employees" on the traildays, if the bike can with stand his hackery... than I am sure that it is a great bike. It's okay Noel... I am not referring to you!

HA!

Dan

the Master Plan Dan
04-17-2007, 11:59 PM
Not trying to hijack the thread but I guess I don't understand what's wrong with using a Six at Whistler?

Is there that big of a difference in travel/feel at the park?

I think it is for those who feel the need to have a super huge bike that withstand any amount of hucking....

Monster T's could have stopped a train...

The 6 is fine for Whistler...

The 6 is a super nice sexy bike... James' golden one is hawt!

DaveM
04-18-2007, 12:04 AM
Not trying to hijack the thread but I guess I don't understand what's wrong with using a Six at Whistler?

Is there that big of a difference in travel/feel at the park?

Nothing wrong with the Six at Whistler.

But will it stand up to a couple years of constant abuse the way my Team DH will?

Jeff M
04-18-2007, 12:06 AM
If you decided to sell the big bike you could spend some of the money on a second wheelset for the 6.

Have one burly set with 729s and DH tires for whistler and shuttling.

Then have the singletracks (or even better sell them an get something really light) with a set of 2.1" kevlar bead tires for ride with climbing.

That's another option anyways.

IMO, The Team DH might be better but the Six is a perfectly capable bike for the tech trails at whistler. On the jump trails the Six will obviously be more fun.

For riding everything in the park I think it doesn't get much better than a pimped out 6/7" travel bike.

IFO
04-18-2007, 12:23 AM
keep both and make each bike have a specific job..

make ur Six into more of a Epic ride/XC burner..

keep the team DH bikepark/ super knarly trail freindly..

that way ur dialed for whateva type of ride ur headed out to..

p.s. if u sell that frame ima have to send a hired killer after you..hahaah..

after all the work i did on that... psshh.. 8-)

syncro
04-18-2007, 12:55 AM
big bikes are for fat people who crash coming off the skinny drops on neds!

they're also for fat people who crash off 1ft high ladders on ladies only.

honestly dave, i'd say keep both bikes and leave the six as it is but just get a better wheelset that doesn't weigh a bunch, something like the 721's - a better wheel than the singletrack and lighter too i think.

the six is never going to be as plush as the team dh, and as your riding is improving soon enough you will be hitting trails where the six is going to feel pushed to it's limit for you and you will want the extra travel of the dh. i don't think you're riding is at the point yet where you will be happy with one bike for everything.

atb
04-18-2007, 01:08 AM
Keep the dh bike too. I'v been riding my six for a couple months now, and I cant wait to get back on the 8" bike.

M13
04-18-2007, 03:12 AM
I can wait to get back on the 8" bike.
you mean can't!

Dave, if you have the slack in the wallets, keep the big bike. The six will let you do everything else, but it won't be able to fill in for the DH's spot somedays. The all around tool is good at doing everything to a point, but specific tools are what really finishes the job right.

I sometimes regret getting my big bike (due to harder time throwing it around on shore, etc) but in the end, it does have that extra room for screw ups and I'm starting to get used to it. (finally)

Just beef up your six's wheels, and I think it's pretty much set for anything.

atb
04-18-2007, 03:18 AM
fixed,



Last year I had no problems flicking the big bike around, even the zigzag on cbc was a piece of cake.

henry11106
04-18-2007, 03:27 AM
yeah, Dave. keep both bikes for sure. I think you will grow on the big bike at whistler etc. this year and be thankful of the extra travel.

as for the six, just ride those wheels until they break, replace the pedals and convert to tubeless asap!

shirk
04-18-2007, 03:45 AM
Ditch the big bike. Ride the current rims on the Six till they break.

Do a little controlled study. Ride the DH on Cyps and take notes, times blah blah blah. Then ride the Six on the same trails and compare notes. How much faster do you think the DH will really be? If you are pushing a 47lbs rig around vs a 37lbs bike how much more energy do you think you'll expend? I am gunna bet you'll get just as many smile per mile on the smaller bike all season as you would switching back and forth between two bikes.

If cash is no object then keep both, but I bet the DH will collect some dust.

0_o
04-18-2007, 04:23 AM
Keep your bike. Unless you get lucky you will not get anything close to what the bike is actually worth. Just the way the market goes I'd guess.

Lightening the Six... Mavic wheels and tubless tires will make a big difference in weight you can actually feel. I say Mavics because I recently switched to a set of 721's after riding mostly Sun/Ringle offerings and noticed a substantial difference in weight. Hubs may lighten the bike overall but I find that difference becomes transparent in the trail. Other than that it's a matter of shaving weight bit by bit off each component until you've reached a number you are satisfied with.

Or...

You could hit the gym a few times a week and work on the best upgrade of them all... the rider. Not saying you need it. Just giving another option.

DaveM
04-18-2007, 04:23 AM
yeah, Dave. keep both bikes for sure. I think you will grow on the big bike at whistler etc. this year and be thankful of the extra travel.

as for the six, just ride those wheels until they break, replace the pedals and convert to tubeless asap!


What's wrong with my pedals?

I've thought of tubeless, but I'm running the folding bead Nevegals with XC tubes and I haven't flatted yet. The weight savings would be negligible with the Stans strips and sealand vs. XC tubes, and the chance of flatting greater in my opinion.

I've been running tubeless on the DH bike with DH casing tires for a couple of years and I'm sold on it, but not using light tires and XC tubes.

I'm not concerned with the present weight of my Six, I can pedal it anywhere all day long. The only thing holding it back is me (and yes Shin, I need some cardio work) I just don't want it to get any heavier.

Selling the DH bike has never been for the money, I know I'd take a kicking. I was just tossing around the idea of freeing up some garage space.

atb
04-18-2007, 04:28 AM
mabey get a lighter big bike.

syncro
04-18-2007, 04:30 AM
Selling the DH bike has never been for the money, I know I'd take a kicking. I was just tossing around the idea of freeing up some garage space.

if you wanna free up some garage space why don't you get rid of all that fitness equipemnt you never use that's just sitting around gathering dust?

toycdn
04-18-2007, 04:40 AM
I'm surprised you haven't killed that wheelset yet!

SdB
04-18-2007, 05:18 AM
I'd agree with the majority above-If you don't need the money keep the bikes. At least give your big bike a chance to prove itself worthy and have one last ride on it up at whistler...then just think of how little the resale is ...

I had the same kinds of issues with my Six- do I lighten it up?-and do I keep the bigger bike? (an older 03 launch worth nothing today) or do build up a hardtail for more XC/epic spins? Well i ended up doing all three. My Six is an 05, but weighs in at 36.8 lbs- i have a pearl shock that I

Tom
04-18-2007, 05:50 AM
if you wanna free up some garage space why don't you get rid of all that fitness equipemnt you never use that's just sitting around gathering dust?

FTW!

Keep both bikes. I love having two bikes and soon hope to have three!

Testy
04-18-2007, 08:23 AM
Sell a bike? Why the hell would you want one less bike?

DaveM
04-18-2007, 01:41 PM
if you wanna free up some garage space why don't you get rid of all that fitness equipemnt you never use that's just sitting around gathering dust?

It's handy to hang stuff on to dry. I'd like to cover the elliptical trainer in carpet and let the cats play on it.

TheGiggler
04-18-2007, 04:50 PM
the six is never going to be as plush as the team dh, and as your riding is improving soon enough you will be hitting trails where the six is going to feel pushed to it's limit for you and you will want the extra travel of the dh. i don't think you're riding is at the point yet where you will be happy with one bike for everything.



dude, you have this totally backwards.

the more you progress, the less you need a big bike. i've seen almost everyone hit all the stuff on the 6-7" bikes with SC that they ever hit on big bikes. i'm talking Cypress gnar, woodlot style stuff, you name it.

a 6-7" bike can ride Neds at 9/10ths to full speed of a big bike, just perhaps with a little less comfort and plushness.

there's very few trails on the shore where i find having more than 6.5" of travel is truly an advantage.

milkman
04-18-2007, 05:24 PM
Interesting thread. I'm also looking at either upgrading my hardtail to a new 6 inch frame or just buying a used DH bike to complement the hardtail. Sounds like after years on a hardtail, a nice 6 inch frame may be the "do it all" ticket....

syncro
04-18-2007, 05:40 PM
dude, you have this totally backwards.

the more you progress, the less you need a big bike. i've seen almost everyone hit all the stuff on the 6-7" bikes with SC that they ever hit on big bikes. i'm talking Cypress gnar, woodlot style stuff, you name it.

a 6-7" bike can ride Neds at 9/10ths to full speed of a big bike, just perhaps with a little less comfort and plushness.

there's very few trails on the shore where i find having more than 6.5" of travel is truly an advantage.

maybe for most people, but we're talking about dave here - he likes his travel. as he gets better, stuff he wouldn't think of doing now with the big bike will become do-able with the big bike. if he only has the small bike it'll take forever to get to the point where he might try it with the small bike. it's complicated, i know, but dave is a complex man.

DaveM
04-18-2007, 05:50 PM
my theory has always been, "have a bad ride, buy another inch of travel"

Hence the Z150SL coming off the bike and the Totem going on....

Uncle Duke
04-18-2007, 05:51 PM
the mid travel, sc bikes just feel like riding bikes. as opposed to riding a tank/couch. that 1/10 of speeed you lose you will make up in fun as the whole ride will be more enjoyable. i find the aesthetic of a single crown to be far more appealing than the big rig setups.

TheGiggler
04-18-2007, 06:17 PM
the mid travel, sc bikes just feel like riding bikes. as opposed to riding a tank/couch. that 1/10 of speeed you lose you will make up in fun as the whole ride will be more enjoyable. i find the aesthetic of a single crown to be far more appealing than the big rig setups.



well said.

in addition, it is so much easier to pedal standing up with a single crown ... i cant stand pedallign dual crowns for very long ...

DaveM
04-18-2007, 06:44 PM
It's funny though, after riding only a DH bike for few years, my 6.5/7" travel Six still feels like my "little bike" and I don't have the same confidence to send it (as much as I send it). The Totem went a long way to fix that by raking the front end out and really making the small bike "feel" bigger, and the 2 step dropping down to 135mm for climbing while still remaining fully functional is a beautiful thing. I just need some saddle time to get the feel.

Rat
04-18-2007, 07:02 PM
anyone who rides alot (3 - 4 days a week) and wont tolerate downtime needs two bikes. I suppose you could have a whole wack of spare parts but personaly I find two bikes the bare minimum.

rideitall
04-18-2007, 07:34 PM
It's funny though, after riding only a DH bike for few years, my 6.5/7" travel Six still feels like my "little bike" and I don't have the same confidence to send it (as much as I send it). The Totem went a long way to fix that by raking the front end out and really making the small bike "feel" bigger, and the 2 step dropping down to 135mm for climbing while still remaining fully functional is a beautiful thing. I just need some saddle time to get the feel.

Dave

Two bikes are nice, and as pointed out in another post, downtime is minimized. Perhaps the two bikes are too close in their intended use. One is FR/DH the other FR/AM (especially with the Totem on the front of the six). I tried out a few different bike bikes and ended up switching out to more of an all round bike in how your six is setup. My bigger bike that I am running is the Nomad, with a 66 SL 1 ATA, so I have the ability to dial down the front when required, but for most rides leave it at 180. The bike is light enough at 37lbs but seems to take the abuse well. I can hit everything I used to hit on my bigger bikes with this so no worries there. In fact this bike is totally capable of way more than what I will ever be able to throw at it.

The bike I ride as my smaller bike has also changed. It has gone from full on XC to more of a XC/AM mix. The current rig has only 4.2 inches of travel and 5.5 on the front (Pike Uturn). I wanted my XC/AM ride to be able to handle long trail days with lots of climbing, but not get too twitchy for any technical or descending. The point on this is that the bike is around 30lbs, which makes climbing more bearable. I feel the extra weight when climbing on a 37 lb bike. The bike can be used for the tech XC and AM stuff like, BP, Severed, Pango, 7th, Pipeline ... If I was a better rider I could use it even more stuff.

I guess it comes down to rider ability, preference and of course $$$. Back when I had one of my big bikes running with a 888 RC2X, I ended up riding with a guy on a Heckler (coil back and 5-6 inch fork on front) we ended up riding CBC, Corkscrew, Boogie, out to Empress, we hit all the same jumps and rolls, and kept the same pace. The bigger bike allowed me to do more on the descents without being a better rider, as much as I was able possibly do more I definately was not a better rider, but to each their own.

Good luck on your choice.

IFO
04-19-2007, 12:25 AM
my theory has always been, "have a bad ride, buy another inch of travel"

Hence the Z150SL coming off the bike and the Totem going on....

Hahah i graduated from that same school..

:banana:

ESHER SHORE
04-19-2007, 02:17 PM
i had freeride suspension bike (scream with Fox 40s) and freeride hardtail (scirocco with Fox32s)

the 2 bikes were too similar, and i was riding both bikes on the same terrain, stunts, jumps as the Scirocco was still pretty heavy and felt burly with its cromoly cranks and DH wheels / tires

so got rid of the HT and got a BMX for skatepark/street/DJ, and got a Chaparral with Totem for freeriding;)

if i got another HT probably a super light weight XC type rig for blasting about on

Tom
04-19-2007, 02:41 PM
the more you progress, the less you need a big bike. i've seen almost everyone hit all the stuff on the 6-7" bikes with SC that they ever hit on big bikes. i'm talking Cypress gnar, woodlot style stuff, you name it.

Yeah, but I would think it's a lot easier to hit it for the first time on the big bike, then do it on the small bike.

Uncle Duke
04-19-2007, 03:26 PM
thats a good point. im doing that w the nyquil drop. demo'ing on the big bike and hopefully get it on the smllr bike too.

drummer_dil
04-19-2007, 03:28 PM
get a dually with 4-6" of travel. theres still lotsa give but you can feel your mistakes.

Uncle Duke
04-19-2007, 03:47 PM
for me the perfect do it all bike would be the 2006 7" shore frame. having ridden a 4x I found that wasnt quite enough cushion on bigger hits, whl base too short for hi speeds, the six is damn close but every now and then bottoms out,fairly stable at hi speeds...the bigger older shores had too long of a whl base, made the bike stable but a bitch to jump.

last yrs shore frame sits and feels like my six but w a bit more travel. watching cain and al ride lets me know its jump ready.

everybody to caps buy NORCO!!!lol.

craw
04-19-2007, 05:41 PM
It may be a bit late to add my 2 cents here. I've totally had this dilemma.

I'm a big guy (6'6", 200 lbs). I'm not that heavy but I'm strong and exert a ridiculous amount of leverage on my gear. Everything for me is re-purposed i.e. all-mountain bikes become XC bikes, freeride bikes become AM bikes and big bikes, well, big bikes are still big bikes.

The other issue is Whistler. Once your bike gets really dialled for riding the bike park, it is definitely a lot less fun to do other things with (i.e. climbing). In a Vancouver winter, I find one bike is plenty since the local rides are mostly straight up and then straight down.

The thing I notice the most when I go to a 'smaller' bike is the change in geometry. I don't care so much about the difference in travel as I do the change in head angle and wheelbase/chainstay. For a tall rider with a high centre of gravity this makes smaller bikes very unstable. I tried a bunch of 'smaller' bikes and just couldn't get happy on them. They felt like they were right at the edge of their performance on the Shore (for me). When I was 'on' they felt super-precise and very efficient (both up and down), but when I was 'off' they became very dangerous, mostly (I presume) because of the reduced margin for error and less capable descending characteristics of a steeper bike with less travel and wheelbase.

That being said, a longish shorter travel bike might be just the ticket. Something like a Knolly Delirium or a SC Nomad might be the perfect compromise. Longish chainstays, 1.5 head tube for that big single crown and general toughness to make it up and down the trails in Vancouver.

THAT being said, I won't be retiring my V-Tach any time soon. I mean, it pedals great and when set up relatively light (low 40s) it makes a very capable pedalling bike, at least for dealing with Vancouver-style ups and downs. Adjustable suspension travel and lockouts help a lot here as well.

Is this a huge digression? I've lost track of what I originally wanted to say.

Yes, smaller bikes can work with a few caveats and sensible parts selection. But there will always be a home for bigger bikes that pedal well (like my V-Tach). We're already seeing a move away from sled-style DH bikes as riders gain more and more skill and get critically frustrated with not being able to raise their seats.

It's great to see riders expanding back towards climbing and incorporating everything into their riding experience rather than just having one big stupid bike that can't do anything but descend. Many of us on this board remember 'mountain biking'. It was often a door-to-door adventure that involved a huge range of skills. I miss those days and I'm glad to see that they're coming back! It's even cooler to see the new riders whose early exposure to mountain biking was New World Disorder movies (and 8" travel DH bikes) explore other parts of riding (like XC/AM-style riding).

Air Supplier
04-19-2007, 09:57 PM
haha CRAW you always have the longest (and best) replies! you work way too hard man!

connor
04-19-2007, 10:33 PM
there's very few trails on the shore where i find having more than 6.5" of travel is truly an advantage.

I'll buy that, but I still think Park riding and DH racing are faster/more fun/less fatiguing on a big bike. Most stuff I've been riding in Van get's the little bike..

thewwkayaker
04-19-2007, 11:13 PM
Sort of off topic but is it better to learn to ride on a bike with less travel so you can see your mistakes earlier or with more travel so that you can overcome your fears easier?

BareFootMeshback
04-20-2007, 12:35 AM
haha CRAW you always have the longest (and best) replies! you work way too hard man!

I totally agree that nice to see climbing coming back into fashion and more all around riding. I'm totally loving the 6 and 6 action after years on a hardtail. I think its a great way to go. I had a blast Tuesday afternoon, rode along the Trans-Canada trail out to SFU, climbed up, handed in a paper, rode Nicoles, climbed back up to the Parkway and road home to Vancouver the same way along the Trans-Canada trail.

shirk
04-20-2007, 01:06 AM
Sort of off topic but is it better to learn to ride on a bike with less travel so you can see your mistakes earlier or with more travel so that you can overcome your fears easier?

Hand down small bike wins.

Looks at the best all around riders you have ever met and I'll bet they learned on steel hardtails with crappy forks and canit or v-brakes.

PUNKY
04-20-2007, 01:34 AM
Sort of off topic but is it better to learn to ride on a bike with less travel so you can see your mistakes earlier or with more travel so that you can overcome your fears easier?

Even better would be a hardtail, so you can develope riding fluidly and learn better line selection

Bryce
04-20-2007, 08:54 PM
I've given this some thought lately and I realized that I like riding the big bike for the control and stability that it offers. Sure, my smaller bike can ride all the same gnarly stuff but it feels sketchier and thats just not my style. Personal thing.

Also, just cuz you have a big bike, doesn't mean you need monsters and steel handlebars. If you use AM parts, you end up with a DH bike thats just a few lbs heavier than an AM bike. And I'll bet a DH bike with light wheels would ride lighter than a AM bike with burly wheels.

I guess my point is that long travel isn't always a lot heavier and short travel isn't always a lot lighter.

Farmer
04-20-2007, 09:19 PM
if you'd like, I could keep the team DH at my place, ride it for a while, and let you see what life is like w/o it:)

ESHER SHORE
04-21-2007, 01:56 PM
that's something thats exciting about Devinci's new Frantik

its lighter and smaller than a "big bike" like an Ollie, Demo, Scream. etc

but they've managed to keep the longer wheelbase and chopped out angles, i've ridden the Frantik a few times and it feels just like a mini-DH bike, whereas something like an SX Trail is shorter and sharper handling

maybe Devinci has got it dialled?

motion
04-21-2007, 05:56 PM
Yeah those are probably the nicest frames going.
Personaly I would spec the bikes a bit lighter but that's just me.
The hecktic 3 is perfect for me but I wish that spec came with a 150mm rear end and 1.5 ht. I also wish it was about $2500 cheaper.

PUNKY
04-21-2007, 06:04 PM
^I agree but for me it was the Frantik 3, 7 large is just too much for my blood

jro
04-21-2007, 09:43 PM
Why is everybody turning into weight wiennies. A 45 pound bike isn't really that heavy and the only difference between 37,39,40,45 lbs that you will probably feel is when you lift it onto the truck. Weight saving is such a fad now that it is getting ridiculous with people trying to save grams here and there. What's five pounds to a 200 lb guy. Don't give me any bullshit about flickableity, riding uphill, all mountain etc... I have been riding for a long time and have seen everything come and go. Get a bike for what you like and where and how you ride it. Why is a scale a part of a mtn bikers tool set ????

motion
04-21-2007, 10:36 PM
easier
faster
funner

the nineties called. they want their grumpy old man back

biggles604
04-21-2007, 11:32 PM
Why is everybody turning into weight wiennies. A 45 pound bike isn't really that heavy and the only difference between 37,39,40,45 lbs that you will probably feel is when you lift it onto the truck. Weight saving is such a fad now that it is getting ridiculous with people trying to save grams here and there. What's five pounds to a 200 lb guy. Don't give me any bullshit about flickableity, riding uphill, all mountain etc... I have been riding for a long time and have seen everything come and go. Get a bike for what you like and where and how you ride it. Why is a scale a part of a mtn bikers tool set ????

Ride a lighter bike, especially one with a light wheelset, you'll notice the difference immediately. The other change though is that bikes are going back to steeper angles for responsiveness. It takes a little to get used to, but when you do, big DH bikes feel all floppy and slow.

BareFootMeshback
04-21-2007, 11:49 PM
Don't sell your bikes, just buy a road bike for those times where you need a few days off from mountain bikes.

Sorry about the ride, I hate days like that.

BareFootMeshback
04-21-2007, 11:54 PM
Why is everybody turning into weight wiennies. A 45 pound bike isn't really that heavy and the only difference between 37,39,40,45 lbs that you will probably feel is when you lift it onto the truck. Weight saving is such a fad now that it is getting ridiculous with people trying to save grams here and there. What's five pounds to a 200 lb guy. Don't give me any bullshit about flickableity, riding uphill, all mountain etc... I have been riding for a long time and have seen everything come and go. Get a bike for what you like and where and how you ride it. Why is a scale a part of a mtn bikers tool set ????

I think the difference between a 37 pound bike and a 45 pound one depends on where the weight is. If its in the wheels, pedals, and tires/tubes, its an amazing difference. 37 pounds is still alot of bike considering my road bike weights about 18 pounds with a fairly beefy build.

rowdy01
04-22-2007, 12:27 AM
Why is everybody turning into weight wiennies. A 45 pound bike isn't really that heavy and the only difference between 37,39,40,45 lbs that you will probably feel is when you lift it onto the truck. Weight saving is such a fad now that it is getting ridiculous with people trying to save grams here and there. What's five pounds to a 200 lb guy. Don't give me any bullshit about flickableity, riding uphill, all mountain etc... I have been riding for a long time and have seen everything come and go. Get a bike for what you like and where and how you ride it. Why is a scale a part of a mtn bikers tool set ????

I mostly agree with ya bro.....a bike should be built with what the rider is going to ride in mind (duh). All these guys coming down the mountain and complaining about broken spokes, woobly wheels and flats need to figure out that lighter may not be the most practical approach for shore type riding. Sure, super light wheels and tubless set ups feel great on the road......maybe even on the trail, but they will not last on the shore. Me....i`ve got alot of weight in my wheels and tires (and big mother tubes), Arrow DHX and Michalins, but i`m never the one stuck repairing flats or tightning spokes inbetween runs. If that`s a suitable trade-off for ya, then all the power to ya, but for me, a little extra in the right places is always the smart move.......and trust me, i`m not known for smart moves! Repairing bikes on the mountain sucks......that`s riding time.

Uncle Duke
04-22-2007, 12:43 AM
cough cough*bullshit* cough cough. huge diff between 45 and 38 lb bike. ride a couple and you will 100% agree.

big ben
04-22-2007, 01:34 AM
I mostly agree with ya bro.....a bike should be built with what the rider is going to ride in mind (duh). All these guys coming down the mountain and complaining about broken spokes, woobly wheels and flats need to figure out that lighter may not be the most practical approach for shore type riding. Sure, super light wheels and tubless set ups feel great on the road......maybe even on the trail, but they will not last on the shore. Me....i`ve got alot of weight in my wheels and tires (and big mother tubes), Arrow DHX and Michalins, but i`m never the one stuck repairing flats or tightning spokes inbetween runs. If that`s a suitable trade-off for ya, then all the power to ya, but for me, a little extra in the right places is always the smart move.......and trust me, i`m not known for smart moves! Repairing bikes on the mountain sucks......that`s riding time.
QFT. I'd rather have a heavier wheelset that lasts w/ DH tubes that never flat, than a lighter UST wheelset that'll be dead by the end of the season. Works for some, but I'll pass and save some money.

jro
04-22-2007, 02:40 AM
easier
faster
funner

the nineties called. they want their grumpy old man back

The bike shop called your rim is too warped and you will have to get a new one. Sounds just like the nineties.


I would rather sound grumpy than wussy.

PS: I like your dog.

jro
04-22-2007, 02:45 AM
cough cough*bullshit* cough cough. huge diff between 45 and 38 lb bike. ride a couple and you will 100% agree.

100% disagree. I do agree that there is a difference, sometimes there is also a huge difference in two bikes in the same class, same weight but made buy different companies. A bike can feel totally different by changing the stem and sweep of your bars.

shirk
04-22-2007, 06:18 AM
Why is everybody turning into weight wiennies. A 45 pound bike isn't really that heavy and the only difference between 37,39,40,45 lbs that you will probably feel is when you lift it onto the truck. Weight saving is such a fad now that it is getting ridiculous with people trying to save grams here and there. What's five pounds to a 200 lb guy. Don't give me any bullshit about flickableity, riding uphill, all mountain etc... I have been riding for a long time and have seen everything come and go. Get a bike for what you like and where and how you ride it. Why is a scale a part of a mtn bikers tool set ????

Let me guess you shuttle ALOT?

Go climb 3 big laps in Pembie or Fromme on that 45lbs bike...in the same day

Uncle Duke
04-22-2007, 07:32 AM
... A bike can feel totally different by changing the stem and sweep of your bars.



thats true.

each to their own.

freakonaleash
04-22-2007, 07:49 AM
Regarding dh tubes, I like Dh tube in the rear and regular in the front.

Im with the people that say weight isnt a huge issue. In my opinion, dropping 8 pounds of bike, for hundreds of dollars is useless, when those hundreds of dollars could be used for food and a gym membership, which would give you a truely noticable difference.

jro
04-22-2007, 07:56 AM
Let me guess you shuttle ALOT?

Go climb 3 big laps in Pembie or Fromme on that 45lbs bike...in the same day

Nope I don't shuttle a lot and have done 3 climbs on Fromme in one day plenty.
I'm not bashing a light bike I just think that the whole weight thing is silly when people are trying to save grams here and there and asking how they can get thier 41.285 lbs freeride bike down to 40 lbs. I had an 05 six that was great for eveything a little on the heavy side compared to a couple of other bikes in its class but riding up fromme, up woodlot and the step down step up in whistler wasn't a problem.
There isn't anything I wouldn't do on a six inch bike that I would do on an eight+ inch bike. That's not saying that everything that can be done on an eigth+ bike can be done on a six inch bike I am saying that everything that I would do.

Jeff M
04-22-2007, 09:53 AM
I had an 05 six that was great for eveything a little on the heavy side compared to a couple of other bikes in its class but riding up fromme, up woodlot and the step down step up in whistler wasn't a problem.


Agreed. Weight does matter, but geometry and tires make the biggest difference for climbing and riding long distances.

Sure you can get your DH bike to weigh 36 lbs if you throw enough money at it, but will that make it climb well? No.

By the same token a 45lb bike can still climb well if you can get proper leg extension, the tires roll well, and the suspension doesn't bob all over the place. Same thing with riding all day.

Janus
07-05-2008, 05:12 PM
Seems that everybody seems to go bigger with the big bikes. For me it was the complete opposite... With my Norco Atomik with 888 on front at 48 pounds the only thing I was able to do is hang on and follows the bike. It was a bitch to do anything technical like skinnies. I was scared for drops because it was very hard to time the preload of the bike, the fork was always dipping or I was pulling too hard and my body ended in a corny position for landing. For a-line stuff the big bike just didn t make it in the air.
then... I just get an 38 pounds SX trail !!!!!!!!!!!!
Whoaaa it was just unbelievable, my level of confidence just cranked instantly 5 level. Since I was in control I was able to do all the steep faces of upper oil can and the skinnies of espresso. (On the first run with just a cup like helmet since I was planning an sfu ride before I saw the 210 bus instead of the 135 ;) ) Same things for whistler. On a-line, no more fear of landing too much on the front or on the back since I was able to control the balance of the bike in the air. I finally completed all joy ride top to bottom. Can't wait for tomorrow to try Garbanzo!
So maybe the big bike is faster in the very rough or garbanzo, but that's it for 95% of my time on the bike, I m selling the big one I think.

Farmer
07-05-2008, 06:05 PM
I have the same dilemna as you. I too am 200+ and not smooth. Not a big air guy, but slowly getting better.

I ended up with a 2007 Shore 1. I can't afford two bikes, and this was the happy medium "do everything" bike for a guy my size. In an ideal world I would have a team DH and a Six. It sounds like you are slowly turning your six into the same bike as my Shore.

I don't think there is really a solution to the problem, but rather an amont you are willing to spend. If you want to cut down to just one bike, you are probably going about it in the right way.

no sure how many people know this, but the 05 six actually because pretty much the 06 shore, when norco started to lighten things up. not sure what year yours is, or if this info is really helpful, but I thought you might like to know it.

Air Supplier
07-05-2008, 06:37 PM
personally I love big bikes (and yes I've had 2 6 inch bikes) because you dont hold you back when you're going from big jumps/drops to rough downhill... I noticed with 6 inch bikes (and I've heard people bitching about 7 inch ones too) that its hard to find a happy medium in suspension that can be smooth over rocks yet not bottom out on drops. Keep the big bike and maybe make it lighter for pedalling (I find pedalling easier on my VP Free than my old RM switch) but what really helps is when you have a dual ring chain guide (not the normal two rings because otherwise the chain keeps skipping) that way pedalling uphill is a breeze

PUNKY
07-05-2008, 08:01 PM
lawl i weight 150 lbs so i can use whatever parts that i want too on a big bike lawl :lol: :lol:

rewoga
07-07-2008, 12:17 AM
Back to DaveM's original question - did you keep both bikes?

I would love to have a DH bike and my Six and my hardtail. I just can't afford another bike right now so I have taken a different tack. My Six is built up pretty burly (dual crown Slider Plus fork - DH wheels and tires) so for trail riding I just bought a new back wheel - singletrack with an XT hub, Kevlar tire, regular tube. I have kept my old back wheel (Mag 30 - steel dual ply DH tire) for shuttles and the bike park.
I am pretty sure I will pick up another kevlar tire for the front. That way I really have three bikes:

Six DH - Steel bead DH tire on the front, Mag 30 with a steel bead DH tire on the back. Weight - 40.14 lbs

Six Trail - Kevlar bead tire on the front, Singletrack/XT wheel with Kevlar singleply tire on the back. Weight - 36 lbs?

Hardtail - Norco Bigfoot - 5 inch fork - 30 lbs? XC and AM

Having two bikes is really nice - that way you will always be able to ride. The only upgrade I would consider for the Six would be the fork. If I could afford a 66 ATA or Totem with adjustable travel that would be sweet. However, having a dual crown is pretty confidence inspiring and mine doesn't rake the angles out too much so my bike actually climbs quite well (I have the six inch OEM version from a 2004 Giant AC). I am still considering bumping my slider to 7 inches - I only need one part (compression rod) to do this and I am getting a "flat crown" off of someone next week, so my angles shouldn't change too much. But to be honest, I freakin love my bike right now so probably won't change a thing!

DaveM
07-07-2008, 12:31 AM
Back to DaveM's original question - did you keep both bikes?

hell yeah, and added another.

The big Norco was replaced by an Orange 224. It's strictly a dowhnill ripper. I kept the Six, it's sporting a DHX air and 66 ATA. It's about the most perfect all around bike I can imagine. I added a hardtail dirt jumper/pumptrack bike but it rarely gets used.

rewoga
07-07-2008, 12:55 AM
hell yeah, and added another.

The big Norco was replaced by an Orange 224. It's strictly a dowhnill ripper. I kept the Six, it's sporting a DHX air and 66 ATA. It's about the most perfect all around bike I can imagine. I added a hardtail dirt jumper/pumptrack bike but it rarely gets used.

What are the angles like with the 66 ATA? While I like a bike with a slack head tube every now and again, I feel there is a certain limit as I like a bit of manouverability. I am still fond of the angles my old Fluid had - 67.5 degree head angle. My Six feels about the same (I'm going to measure this as I am curious). Any slacker and I feel a bike is too slow to turn. I rode my buddy Tom's AC a few times (with the fork that is now on my Six on it) and it felt too slow to turn - too slack. The way my Six is no feels just right.

DaveM
07-07-2008, 05:50 PM
I'll measure the head angle tonight and post it up. It's pretty slack in the 180mm travel and nice and quick in the 140mm travel and is infinitely adjustable in between.

btw I'm still pondering the bike bike versus small bike for next year :lol:

The big bike was for racing this year, but honestly I didn't have much fun doing it and am questioning it for next year.

jbazett
07-07-2008, 07:13 PM
Interesting thread. I'm also looking at either upgrading my hardtail to a new 6 inch frame or just buying a used DH bike to complement the hardtail. Sounds like after years on a hardtail, a nice 6 inch frame may be the "do it all" ticket....

Don't believe the hype brotha! I just finished building a super burly HT, nothing is like pinning a sweet piece of single track on a hard tail! Pick up a DH rig and keep the HT!

biggles604
07-07-2008, 07:16 PM
The big bike was for racing this year, but honestly I didn't have much fun doing it and am questioning it for next year.

And that was why my big bike didn't get taken out much.

big ben
07-07-2008, 07:23 PM
I'm a big fan of having either a hardtail and a DH rig, or a single AM/FR bike. Last year I had the HT/DH combo, this year I'm rocking the single FR rig. Both work out nicely and I feel like I've had a suitable bike for every situation thus far.

Aeropusher
07-07-2008, 08:13 PM
And that was why my big bike didn't get taken out much.

ditto....so far this year my team DH has been an expensive piece of garage art....but I'm still not getting rid of it....

rewoga
07-08-2008, 04:28 PM
I'll measure the head angle tonight and post it up. It's pretty slack in the 180mm travel and nice and quick in the 140mm travel and is infinitely adjustable in between.

btw I'm still pondering the bike bike versus small bike for next year :lol:

The big bike was for racing this year, but honestly I didn't have much fun doing it and am questioning it for next year.

Hey - what's your head angle? Unweighted my Six (with a six inch travel Slider Plus dual crown frk) appears to be 68.3 degrees! So - weighted it would be a degree or two less - still - pretty freakin steep! I may have to seriously consider pushing the travel to seven inches!

I also measured the axle to bottom of steerer tube - 19.5". Axle to center of bar at the stem - 28". How does the 66 comapre?

DaveM
07-08-2008, 04:38 PM
Hey - what's your head angle? Unweighted my Six (with a six inch travel Slider Plus dual crown frk) appears to be 68.3 degrees! So - weighted it would be a degree or two less - still - pretty freakin steep! I may have to seriously consider pushing the travel to seven inches!

I also measured the axle to bottom of steerer tube - 19.5". Axle to center of bar at the stem - 28". How does the 66 comapre?

I'll get the numbers tonight, I forgot last night.

That seems very steep. I recall mine being around 65 degrees at 7". How are you measuring it? I'm using a digital level.

biggles604
07-08-2008, 04:56 PM
I'll get the numbers tonight, I forgot last night.

That seems very steep. I recall mine being around 65 degrees at 7". How are you measuring it? I'm using a digital level.

It does seem steep. I measured my Six with a Fox 36 on it, and it was a touch under 67.

rewoga
07-08-2008, 04:58 PM
I'll get the numbers tonight, I forgot last night.

That seems very steep. I recall mine being around 65 degrees at 7". How are you measuring it? I'm using a digital level.

Measureing tape and level - first I measured from the top of the fork straight down to the floor - this gave me 37 3/4". Next, I measured along the fork (from the same point) to the floor - this gave me 40 5/4". So - using a reverse sin - I get 68.3 degrees!?!

DaveM
07-10-2008, 06:39 AM
Ok, I finally remembered to do this.

08 66 ATA on a 2006 Norco Six.

Full 180mm travel = 65.3 degrees
Short 140mm travel = 67.2 degrees

Axle to crown height at 180mm travel = 22.5" That is measured from the center of the axle to the crown race.

HIBuLlitT
07-10-2008, 06:44 AM
That is just one of many places I've taken personal core samples of the local soil.

Truffle hunting?

rewoga
07-10-2008, 05:52 PM
Ok, I finally remembered to do this.

08 66 ATA on a 2006 Norco Six.

Full 180mm travel = 65.3 degrees
Short 140mm travel = 67.2 degrees

Axle to crown height at 180mm travel = 22.5" That is measured from the center of the axle to the crown race.

OK - what size frame is yours? This makes my numbers seem plausible. By my figuring, your axle to crown race at 140 mm travel would ba about 20.9" - so with mine only being 19.5" a head angle of 68 degrees is possible.

How do you like the 66 ATA? It's definately something I would now consider for my bike!! What does it weigh? (I can't believe I just asked that question...)

DaveM
07-24-2008, 06:01 AM
OK - what size frame is yours? This makes my numbers seem plausible. By my figuring, your axle to crown race at 140 mm travel would ba about 20.9" - so with mine only being 19.5" a head angle of 68 degrees is possible.

Medium frame

How do you like the 66 ATA? It's definately something I would now consider for my bike!! What does it weigh? (I can't believe I just asked that question...)

6.4lbs with FSA crown race installed.

I love the fork, it's fairly easy to dial in, super plush and ramps up nicely. It feels really, really good.