cannondale gemini prototype super cool!

[.Wyper.]

ok so my boss at work has gone on and on about how cool this old cannondale Gemini prototype was. apparently, it was made just to find out the angles and where to position the rear suspension for the Gemini we all know and love today.... it had two shocks and something like a 16" box travel, so the wheel could move up and down back and forth, i totally did not believe it. so i went on the internet and did some research and found this and thought it was super cool.

from mountain bike action.....

http://www.mbaction.com/archive/CANNSIDEST.jpg

THE GEMINIS DOUBLE REAR SUSPENSION SYSTEM

Cannondales penchant for divergent designs is almost legendary, and their latest downhill chassis should startle the most calloused of the been-there-done-that crowd. Dubbed Gemini, the eight-inch-travel chassis has two separate rear suspension systems--each with its own shock. We wish that we could report on exactly how the system performs, but the prototype had not been ridden by anyone at Cannondale. Except for being short of a chain tensioner device, the bike was complete when it was rolled out on Sunday. We had a chance to spin around the hotel parking lot to check out the action of the dual-rate rear end, but that was the extent of the testing that day.

Some modifications have been made to adapt the Gemini system, beyond those details, the front section of the Cannondale DH chassis remains similar to the previous years. The fork is a pumped-up version of last years Moto DH--an inverted fork with a stroke that adjusts from six to eight inches.

Downhillers who need more facts can feast on the pictures while you read on. The following should answer most of your questions


Question 1: Why two suspensions?

When a bicycle is on level ground, bumps drive the suspension straight up. Conventional suspension geometry is designed to allow the rear wheel to travel more or less in a vertical path so it can respond to bumps easily. When a downhiller is descending a steep grade, however, braking and bump forces try to drive the back wheel in a flatter path, angled more towards the rear of the bicycle.

Cannondales head designer, Ron Litke, dreamed up the second Gemini piggy back linkage to be able to react on an angle that was more parallel with the ground. This action, he believes, will soak up sharp-edged bumps while the bike was descending steep grades--and also help keep the rear wheel on the ground when racers were dragging the rear brake through chatter bumps.

http://www.mbaction.com/archive/cann4.jpg

Question 2: How does it work?

The Geminis main rear suspension is a conventional monoshock-type swingarm that drives a Fox type-E coil/over damper with a 2.25-inch stroke. The rear axle is mounted to a small parallelogram linkage where the monoshock swingarms rear dropout would normally be. The parallelogram drives a Fox air shock via a machined-aluminum compression strut routed above the seatstays.

Because the lions share of bumps activate the suspension in a vertical direction (perpendicular to the ground), only the monoshock swingarm and its coil/over damper are activated in most situations.

When the bike is angled sharply downward, any bump that deflects the suspension at 90 degrees will tend to pitch the rider over the handlebars. This is when the Gemini linkage is designed to activate. The main swingarm remains in place, and the Gemini linkage causes the rear wheel to arc away from the bikes center of gravity, thus keeping the rider on line and in control.

Question 3: How will the new Cannondale pedal?

Because the Gemini linkage extends the wheelbase about two inches as it cycles through its travel, even the slightest amount of chain tension will yank it back in place and prevent it from activating. Theoretically, the new Cannondale downhill chassis will pedal like that company�s Super-V chassis. Its monoshock swingarm shares the same pivot geometry.

http://www.mbaction.com/archive/CANN2.jpg

Question 4: Why two shocks?

Cannondales designers wanted the system to be easily tuned. Using a second shock, driven by a separate system, enables the teams mechanics to dial in the Gemini more easily. Initially, the Geminis secondary air shock will have a lockout lever to aid in tuning the primary system. Because there are two separate linkages at work, the Geminis rear wheel can travel virtually anywhere in a rough arced path that covers 18 square inches.

http://www.mbaction.com/archive/cann3.jpg

Question 5: What about braking forces?

When we fussed with the Geminis rear end, it seemed that braking forces tended to extend the secondary linkage. Cannondales project manager explained that Gemini was specifically designed to react to bumps independently from braking and bump forces. Parking lot tests are certainly not conclusive, and only after extensive field testing will anyone know for sure.

http://www.mbaction.com/archive/cann5.jpg




so there you have it... the first gemini.... kinda funny how it looks alot like the demo ah? geuss specalized did not think of it first..

[Flow]

pretty cool for a crack n fail

[jbazett]

Hmmm... sounds..... um..... expensive

[Jimmy-James]

gross

[Hoodlum]

looks and sounds pretty cool, the cost of that thing is alot im guessing. :)

[Buzom]

Its strange how the pivot position is completely different than the way it ended up on the production Gemini..

[Idun]

so we get supper??? wat we eating...im hungry

[.Wyper.]

so we get supper??? wat we eating...im hungry

haha well supper is better then super..... it tastes better....

[freerider guy]

I remember Gracia and Anne Caro shreading on those during the first grouse world cup and also in NWD 2. Sooo sick.

[Mic]

she was scary. anne caro.

[roasterthetoaster]

the first gemini.... kinda funny how it looks alot like the demo ah? geuss specalized did not think of it first..

That's what I was thinking as I read it.

[oceanseyes]

i actually have the issue that the write up on the bike was in. i thought it was prety cool.

[freerider guy]

she was scary. anne caro.

I just remember stading on the course after in the last straight downhill section before they go into the trees that went out onto the cut and I was thinking to myself... "wow the women are wayyyyyy slower than the men". I was a little disapointed. The some says that this chick Missy is coming and well... Holy crap she was fast and soooo intence on the bike. When Anne caro came after and was even faster I was really impressed. Especially how she seemed to be less intence and more flowy.

[james]

this is a totally different suspension that doesn't even come close to specialized's demo suspension platform. The secondary link is a paralelogram and the strut link is linked to the secondary shock which is linked to the main swingarm. might look a bit similar because of the top strut but it is not even close.

the demo platform is a true fsr and they just changed the position of the shock and gave the swingarm a different shape to accomodate it.. that's all there is to it!

[eric.lawrenuk]

pretty cool for a crack n fail
haha:duh:

[Cammm]

ewwwwwwwwww

[Mic]

The some says that this chick Missy is coming and well... Holy crap she was fast and soooo intence on the bike. When Anne caro came after and was even faster I was really impressed. Especially how she seemed to be less intence and more flowy.

Missy was important for the image similar to Palm's role, still have the old and beaten bike mag when she was the guest ed - Anne Caro was just as consistent as N.V. ..maybe we will see a return of her in a couple of years?

[Idun]

rearend looks like...oh i dunno...a demo??

[lukkk]

might look ugly.

[big ben]

haha ahh the good old days of team volvo/cannondale...

[freerider guy]

^^ who else was on the volvo/ cannondale team?

[big ben]

^^ who else was on the volvo/ cannondale team?
as far as I remember the main players were anne caro, cedric, lopes, and tinker juarez...

[freerider guy]

ohh yah lopes... he went to gt in 01 if i'm correct though.

[Wayne P]

Another Cannondale attempt at something "ground breaking" that ended up failing miserably. At least now they're sticking with something simplistic yet effective.

[.Wyper.]

Another Cannondale attempt at something "ground breaking" that ended up failing miserably. At least now they're sticking with something simplistic yet effective.

haha now why would you say something like that when you know nothing about cannondale. they had the gemini in mined the hole time. this bike was made to find the most efective spot for the single pivot. and they did, and it works really well. when else have they tryed something that was ground braking the failed? was it the lefty? no that is still the lightest and one of the stifest forks on the market today. the head shock? nope think that is still around. what about the systum six, using a full carbon headtube, top tube, and bottom tube, and then an aluminum rear triangle, and locking them together, instead of just bonding them? nope makes for one of the stiffest rear end road bikes out there and also lighter then a full carbon frame.

so get you facts strait beffor you come saying cannondale "attempts" to do something ground braking.

[AllShockedUp]

as far as I remember the main players were anne caro, cedric, lopes, and tinker juarez...


The REAL heyday of Volvo/Cannondale was Myles Rockwell, Missy Giove for DH, and Tinker Juarez, Allison Sydor for XC.

When they brought out the Super V DH with the Moto Forks at Mammoth in ?95? it pretty much changed everything in mountainbiking.

[AllShockedUp]

haha now why would you say something like that when you know nothing about cannondale. they had the gemini in mined the hole time. this bike was made to find the most efective spot for the single pivot. and they did, and it works really well. when else have they tryed something that was ground braking the failed? was it the lefty? no that is still the lightest and one of the stifest forks on the market today. the head shock? nope think that is still around. what about the systum six, using a full carbon headtube, top tube, and bottom tube, and then an aluminum rear triangle, and locking them together, instead of just bonding them? nope makes for one of the stiffest rear end road bikes out there and also lighter then a full carbon frame.

so get you facts strait beffor you come saying cannondale "attempts" to do something ground braking.

I'm pretty sure that this bike was their team's DH bike. It was the next, more simplistic step after that abomination called the Fulcrum or whatever it was called that they had before it. This bike was made to be actually competitive, compared to the fulcrum, which had dual shocks, dual chains, weighed something like 7000lbs, had the prototype moto forks that had massive seal problems, but they wouldn't let their race team be seen running anything else, so the riders often ran them without oil to avoid having the oil leak out all over the brake rotors mid-run.

I'm pretty sure that this had nothing to do with the current Gemini aside from the name. It was made like that because Cannondale was really into the whole two-shocks idea for a while. I distinctly remember, when the bike was unveiled, that they pretty much said that it was a lightened-up version of the Fulcrum (I'm 90% sure that's what it was called.).

[AllShockedUp]

haha now why would you say something like that when you know nothing about cannondale. they had the gemini in mined the hole time. this bike was made to find the most efective spot for the single pivot. and they did, and it works really well. when else have they tryed something that was ground braking the failed? was it the lefty? no that is still the lightest and one of the stifest forks on the market today. the head shock? nope think that is still around. what about the systum six, using a full carbon headtube, top tube, and bottom tube, and then an aluminum rear triangle, and locking them together, instead of just bonding them? nope makes for one of the stiffest rear end road bikes out there and also lighter then a full carbon frame.

so get you facts strait beffor you come saying cannondale "attempts" to do something ground braking.

Fulcrum, the MOTO forks that kept exploding on the race team, Raven.

[thom9719]

The REAL heyday of Volvo/Cannondale was Myles Rockwell, Missy Giove for DH, and Tinker Juarez, Allison Sydor for XC.



I have a poster on my wall from 95 with myles rockwell and the original super V dh.

"58 Myles per hour"

:D

too bad he was busted with 200,000 dollars worth of pot in his basement.....

Kyle,

[.Wyper.]

they may have had it as a race bike but it never went into prodution thay waited till the next year and came out with the one shock single pivot. althow i do not go back that far so i would not know as much as the people who where around then.

[Mic]

When they brought out the Super V DH with the Moto Forks at Mammoth in ?95? it pretty much changed everything in mountainbiking.

i can remember drooling all over the place and wanting one soo badly. The scene with Rockwell blasting some singletrack in k3 is one of my all-time favs.

[thom9719]

^^ in K3 myles is rocking the oldschool giant ATX in durrango with chris odrisscol.

Kyle,

[treezz]

I'm pretty sure that this bike was their team's DH bike. It was the next, more simplistic step after that abomination called the Fulcrum or whatever it was called that they had before it. This bike was made to be actually competitive, compared to the fulcrum, which had dual shocks, dual chains, weighed something like 7000lbs, had the prototype moto forks that had massive seal problems, but they wouldn't let their race team be seen running anything else, so the riders often ran them without oil to avoid having the oil leak out all over the brake rotors mid-run.

I'm pretty sure that this had nothing to do with the current Gemini aside from the name. It was made like that because Cannondale was really into the whole two-shocks idea for a while. I distinctly remember, when the bike was unveiled, that they pretty much said that it was a lightened-up version of the Fulcrum (I'm 90% sure that's what it was called.).


just to fill you in the Fulcrum never had 2 shocks. there were 2 variations on the fulcrum, the one that missy, david vasquez and miles raced on and then the one that anne caro, cedric and lopes on. the second one did not have 2 chains or any of that stuff. it just had the fulcrum links that were effectivly like a virtual pivot point. Just so that you know, that bike with both drive chains weighed in at 45.5 lbs. hmm that does not seem to heavy by todays standards of porky bikes. definatly portly for the race scene now but this was in 1999. the fork that they were running was made either by fox or white bros. cannot remember who at this time. I will do some digging.

[Wayne P]

haha now why would you say something like that when you know nothing about cannondale.so get you facts strait beffor you come saying cannondale "attempts" to do something ground braking.


hahaha...I know a lot more than you obviously. :P Just because you work there at BSP, don't take things to heart. I've probably been around in this industry a lot longer than you, so move on....

As someone mentioned, the Fulcrum. Nice for pushing the envelope, but uh, where is it? The Lefty, what happened with the internals? Why was Manitou brought on board? Remember the old DC fork (can't remember the name)? What happened to that piece of brilliance? Why would someone choose a Headshock over an aftermarket fork, other than stiffness? Actually, stiffness isn't even a factor with how stiff today's forks are. And then there's that hugely successful MX bike they came out with. Kind of ground breaking but was super unreliable, heavy, grossly overpriced, etc etc. Where is it now???

Then the original Gemini, the subject of this thread. Where is it now? Why didn't it make it into production? I'll give them some credit for pushing the envelope, but this design was just plain dumb. Even Gracia said so at the Grouse WC, as I over heard in the line up.

Shall I go on?

Cannondale has some nice bikes, like anything that doesn't use Cannondale integrated components, like thier road bikes and newer FR bikes. At least with a company like Giant, they change their designs every other year it seems, but at least they work well and aren't so out in left feild that it ends up being no real world advantage.

[Wayne P]

Fulcrum, the MOTO forks that kept exploding on the race team, Raven.


Oh yea, the Raven. Thanks for that. ;)

[thom9719]

^^ don't forget the Jekyll, the pong bike, their ATV's, their integrated crank/bb standard, CODA, the moto fork, 4 bolt disc hubs, etc.

Kyle,

[thom9719]

however, the fulcrum lives on in those SWEET KHS DH bikes. :D

Kyle,

[Wayne P]

^^ don't forget the Jekyll, the pong bike, their ATV's, their integrated crank/bb standard, CODA, the moto fork, 4 bolt disc hubs, etc.

Kyle,

The Jekyll wasn't entirely bad except for that odd threaded shock collar that only Cannondale used.

Coda cranks, those were so ahead of their time! Remember Coda brakes? :lol: The Beast of the East? Yea baby...

I feel bad for the customer who bought a bike with a headshock then realized he didn't like it. Instead of changing forks, he has to change his whole bike. My wife was the unfortunate owner of one of these contraptions.

If these products (like the original Gemini) were that good, you'd see them in production today.

I'll give C-Dale credit for finally accepting they should utilize what's already been proven, like a regular single pivot, and aftermarket forks.

Again, I know nothing about Cannondale.

[Wayne P]

this bike was made to find the most efective spot for the single pivot.

...which was already proven by numerous manufacturers years before. Look at the current C-Dale SP's - what's so special about that location that other manufacturers haven't been doing?

[treezz]

hahaha...I know a lot more than you obviously. :P Just because you work there at BSP, don't take things to heart. I've probably been around in this industry a lot longer than you, so move on....

As someone mentioned, the Fulcrum. Nice for pushing the envelope, but uh, where is it? The Lefty, what happened with the internals? Why was Manitou brought on board? Remember the old DC fork (can't remember the name)? What happened to that piece of brilliance? Why would someone choose a Headshock over an aftermarket fork, other than stiffness? Actually, stiffness isn't even a factor with how stiff today's forks are. And then there's that hugely successful MX bike they came out with. Kind of ground breaking but was super unreliable, heavy, grossly overpriced, etc etc. Where is it now???

Then the original Gemini, the subject of this thread. Where is it now? Why didn't it make it into production? I'll give them some credit for pushing the envelope, but this design was just plain dumb. Even Gracia said so at the Grouse WC, as I over heard in the line up.

Shall I go on?

Cannondale has some nice bikes, like anything that doesn't use Cannondale integrated components, like thier road bikes and newer FR bikes. At least with a company like Giant, they change their designs every other year it seems, but at least they work well and aren't so out in left feild that it ends up being no real world advantage.

Actually Wayne, there are 3 platforms of the lefty fork. one with manitou, one with fox and one with cannondale internals. They are all designed for different riding so they have different travel and internals.

as for a headshok fork over an aftermarket, well a headshok is lighter, stiffer and more precise steering than anyother fork. Granted they are not for everyone but for XC they are hard to beat.

that hugely successful MX bike was sold to another company and is still being sold today along with the ATV's. If you have any questions on how that bike rode and worked talk to Jude from magura about it when you see him. He has one and loves it.

The fulcrum and original Gemini were never ment for production, they were team bikes that were for testing different things.

[treezz]

The Jekyll wasn't entirely bad except for that odd threaded shock collar that only Cannondale used.

Coda cranks, those were so ahead of their time! Remember Coda brakes? :lol: The Beast of the East? Yea baby...

I feel bad for the customer who bought a bike with a headshock then realized he didn't like it. Instead of changing forks, he has to change his whole bike. My wife was the unfortunate owner of one of these contraptions.

If these products (like the original Gemini) were that good, you'd see them in production today.

I'll give C-Dale credit for finally accepting they should utilize what's already been proven, like a regular single pivot, and aftermarket forks.

Again, I know nothing about Cannondale.


true you do not, sorry wayne

[thom9719]

The Jekyll wasn't entirely bad except for that odd threaded shock collar that only Cannondale used.

Coda cranks, those were so ahead of their time! Remember Coda brakes? :lol: The Beast of the East? Yea baby...

I feel bad for the customer who bought a bike with a headshock then realized he didn't like it. Instead of changing forks, he has to change his whole bike. My wife was the unfortunate owner of one of these contraptions.

If these products (like the original Gemini) were that good, you'd see them in production today.

I'll give C-Dale credit for finally accepting they should utilize what's already been proven, like a regular single pivot, and aftermarket forks.

Again, I know nothing about Cannondale.

we had a jekyll at our shop where cannondale speced the wrong shock. it has a head tube angle of 80 degrees :damn:

the coda cranks sucked, except the magic motorcycles ones. funny how cannondale had outboard berings in 1995.....

I hated every pair of coda brakes, I can't believe missy and myles trusted those to stop them.

you could change a bike with a headshock, you just needed the adapter cups. (same as 1.5 headtubes today)

I'd still like to try the two shock gemini.

All this reminiscing makes me miss my 96 CAAD 2 F600. then my jeykll, my F 800, and the super V :D ahhh, I still remember oogling over my boss's ravens. those were so sick when they came out. to bad every single one broke. those were the days.....

Kyle,

[Wayne P]

Actually Wayne, there are 3 platforms of the lefty fork. one with manitou, one with fox and one with cannondale internals. They are all designed for different riding so they have different travel and internals.

as for a headshok fork over an aftermarket, well a headshok is lighter, stiffer and more precise steering than anyother fork. Granted they are not for everyone but for XC they are hard to beat.

that hugely successful MX bike was sold to another company and is still being sold today along with the ATV's. If you have any questions on how that bike rode and worked talk to Jude from magura about it when you see him. He has one and loves it.

The fulcrum and original Gemini were never ment for production, they were team bikes that were for testing different things.

That hugely successful MX bike that I recently read never finished a race? The one that nearly tanked the company? That one? Are you talking about ATK as the "newer" version that was around well before? I'm going to go to my local dealer and pick one up...oh wait, there aren't any. What a success! The big 5 are what I would call successful or ground-breaking.

A rigid fork is also stiffer, lighter and more precise than a suspension fork... and every bit as effective as a headshock.

I'm looking from the outside, not jaded by brand loyalty. Sorry Kev.

[.Wyper.]

there mx bikes where one of the lightest 4 strokes on the market and worked really well. it is just that they wanted every part of it made in the usa. this is what made it so expensive, wich eventually lead to there bankrubsy protection. agreed they prob should not have made it a production bike. but most of the 4 strokes now a-days are modeld around the way the cannondale bike was made then. there for i would not call it a failer, just b/c companys are still using there ingenuity today, to engineer and manufacture them today.

[Kye]

Oh yea, the Raven. Thanks for that. ;)


I had one :lol: aka the Crow.

The motor bike is what made them go bankrupt.

[Wayne P]

there mx bikes where one of the lightest 4 strokes on the market and worked really well. it is just that they wanted every part of it made in the usa. this is what made it so expensive, wich eventually lead to there bankrubsy protection. agreed they prob should not have made it a production bike. but most of the 4 strokes now a-days are modeld around the way the cannondale bike was made then. there for i would not call it a failer, just b/c companys are still using there ingenuity today, to engineer and manufacture them today.


241lbs is not what I considered light. An XR650 of all bikes is ony 10lbs more. The YZ426 was about 230 and came out in '98 I believe, earlier or same as the C-dale bike, and it had more power. Although the C-dale mx bike had some cool features, Yamaha is widely accepted for delivering the modern-era 4 stroke mx race bike.

What broke the C-dale's back was unreliability, overpriced, and hard to find parts. Like I said, I read recently that the C-dale bike never finished a race (pro ranks I would assume). I even find that hard to believe, but I think it was from Jody Weisel.

[.Wyper.]

241lbs is not what I considered light. An XR650 of all bikes is ony 10lbs more. The YZ426 was about 230 and came out in '98 I believe, earlier or same as the C-dale bike, and it had more power. Although the C-dale mx bike had some cool features, Yamaha is widely accepted for delivering the modern-era 4 stroke mx race bike.

What broke the C-dale's back was unreliability, overpriced, and hard to find parts. Like I said, I read recently that the C-dale bike never finished a race (pro ranks I would assume). I even find that hard to believe, but I think it was from Jody Weisel.

there is no way a 650 is only 251. my 06 suzuki rmz 250 that was around 220 pounds, i now have a 07 rmz 212 and it has only droped by 7 pounds. oh and by the way the xr 650 is 277 pounds dry, (without gas) xr 650L is 324 dry. so i think you are wrong. dont try and out smart me with dirt bikes i no my shit.

[Wayne P]

I "no" my shit and that MX400 was a pile o' junk yo.:P

Hey I was pretty close on guessing the weight of the 650R. :lol:

Anyway, the Cannondale was still a POS and a heavy boat anchor at that.

[.Wyper.]

I "no" my shit and that MX400 was a pile o' junk yo.:P

Hey I was pretty close on guessing the weight of the 650R. :lol:

Anyway, the Cannondale was still a POS and a heavy boat anchor at that.
well it is lighter then a xr 650 oh and 231 is one dam light 400 cc bike. im just going to leave it at that. you can stick to your opinion ill stick to mine.

i really wish we could all just kiss and make up :couple: you never know, one day we could have are very own beach house. you could be out working in the yard and i will make some ice tea. then we will walk down to the deck, both put are feet up and just relax and try and make shapes out of the passing clouds. would that not just be lovely?...

then we will both ride off into the sunset with are cannondale mx 400's, or 45 pound cannondale fulcrum's (witch by the way is lighter then a stock glory dh)

[Wayne P]

I'll bring the personal lubricant if you're serious.

No hard feelings at all idun dude. I love kevin too. A friendly debate on bikes is all it is.











p.s. 241lbs by the way.

[BOWMAN]

wow, i feel old

[.Wyper.]

wow, i feel old

well i feel young and chip

[treezz]

i love you too wayne. you not at yodo anymore?

[Wayne P]

I quit December 1st. I couldn't afford the time to give the job what it deserved, having 4 kids and all. I also gave up riding MTB's in favour of MX - couldn't afford both so a descision was made in favour of something newer to me (and more fun). So why the hell am I on here damn it?