Is strength overrated?

[Ed von Schleck]

Hey!

So I was thinking how to set up my new rig and thought about ways to keep the weight in some places really low, without sacrificing the strength, and without spending a ton of money.

Anyways, my question now is in what spots you can put XC-ish parts on a freeride rig without having to worry about the parts to break?

For example, I´d never put a super-light wheelset like the Mavic Crossmax SL on a bike that I´m gonna shred down A-Line on. I wouldn´t put a light Cross Country bar on a FR bike, too. But how about the following parts:

- seatpost
- saddle
- stem
- cranks

Might sound stupid, but have you ever seen a fairly short stem break? eg I might put the 50mm version of the new Race Face Atlas AM stem, which is like 100 grams lighter than the Diabolus, on my next bike - should I be worried about the thing to break when going off a drop? Same goes for the seatpost and saddle. While I do understand that sometimes the rails of a saddle happen to bend, I honestly doubt that a lighter seatpost will break right away.

Soooo... Are Diabolus parts simply pointless? Should I be concerned about having those sort of parts on my bike? Is strength overrated?

-Moritz

(waiting for atb to respond to this)

[BareFootMeshback]

Depends on how big you are going, how much you weight and how smooth you are. But I think seatposts, saddles and stems can all be switched to All Mountain/XC parts if you want. Cranks probably as well. I don't think Diabolous parts are pointless, they just might be overkill for the average rider.

[methods]

Well, I used to ride XC seats exclusivly(Till I got a free berzerker)

If you're not prone to using the seat as support when you mess up, seat post and saddle are a great plaec to loose a little weight.

Cranks though... that's the primary support for your body weight... I try not to skimp there.

[connor]

yeah I'm with you, I try to run lighter parts where it's less crucial.

Seatpost: is a good one, especially if your riding down trails with it low.

Seat: depends what seat, I ran a ti railed WTB Rocket V on my DHR all year and it's still true. Hey Ross show him your fancy road seat for a bad choice.

Cranks: can be dicey. I wouldn't run XC cranks on a DH/FR bike except for racing only. I bent a pair of Turbine LPs about 5yrs ago, wayyy too light. AM cranks seem to be the way to go, like RF Atlas, Biggles has some, seems to like them.

Stem: yeah that Diabolus one is a tank.

Bars: again dicey, although my Chromag Flatbar is pretty damn light, but it's ment for DH/FR.

Cassette: good spot to loose weight, I have a SRAM PG970 road cassete, and it probably weighs about 200g less than a cheap mtb cassette (like a 950).

Running Tubeless is still the easiest way to save big rotational weight, that and don't run Mag30s.

[Jah]

Yeah if you huck it all you don't want broken crank arms. Haven't seen a stem break, only bars.

[Robot]

if you're even thinking about it, you've probably answered your question. have you ever plugged yourself after a bar failure at high speed? i have, and it's not cool.

you'd be better off dropping rotational weight (wheels, hubs, tires, tubes, pedals, etc) than skimping on parts that, if they fail, can contribute to massive injury.

fwiw, i run lighter weight stems (thomson, easton vice) and they hold up fine. i keep bars around for a year or so before i tank 'em. depends on how much use they see.

[Ed von Schleck]

if you're even thinking about it, you've probably answered your question. have you ever plugged yourself after a bar failure at high speed? i have, and it's not cool.

you'd be better off dropping rotational weight (wheels, hubs, tires, tubes, pedals, etc) than skimping on parts that, if they fail, can contribute to massive injury.

fwiw, i run lighter weight stems (thomson, easton vice) and they hold up fine. i keep bars around for a year or so before i tank 'em. depends on how much use they see.

That´s why I´m asking in what places you can save weight, and that´s why I also said that I´d propably never run a light XC-bar on my Freeride bike. However I´ve never ever seen a broken stem, so my assumption is that stems like the Race Face Evolve AM will hold up just fine.

But since when are pedals considered as rotational weight? You´d have to have pretty flexy ankles, wouldn´t you?

I already am planning on putting tubeless wheels on my new rig. How about the Mavic Deemax? I could run tubeless tires on them, but how light are they in comparison to a Hope Pro II laced to a Mavic EX721 with the Stan´s No tubeless? Which one is heavier?

Would be interesting to hear the thoughts of people like mattj (don´t know any other people on here who go as big as he does). I remember talking to Chris Glew about this issue and even he admitted that Diabolus parts are overkill...

Good to hear that a lightish seatpost on a FR rig will hold up fine...

Let´s hear some more thoughts!

[heckler]

I bought a "all mountain" bottom bracket that had an alloy axle and snapped the axle within 10 months. I've gone back to the DH steel axles with four bearings. It all depends how big you go on the lighter gear.

[Nelson]

Let's see, on my chromag I just built i've got:

Road seat
Thompson post
Raceface Deus XC cranks
EA70 Bars
Thompson Stem
Rhynolites
Air Sprung Nixon Fork

I'm gonna be riding mostly shore stuff on it....

I think i'll be fine ;)

[dudski]

i bent my lightish raceface cranks pedalling up a hill.. my evolve fr's are still good to go tho.

[BareFootMeshback]

But since when are pedals considered as rotational weight? You´d have to have pretty flexy ankles, wouldn´t you?



actually it could make a noticeable difference. I don't know about switching mtb flats but when I switched to some lighter pedals on my road bike I noticed a huge difference.

[nouseforaname]

Whats at least as important is YOU, not the parts. If you weigh 250lbs and constantly ditch your bike because you are pushing your limits then light should not be part of your equation.
But if you weigh 150 and are smooth and riding within yourself then hey you'll probably be fine.

[TheGiggler]

i say lightweight is over-rated, if anything.

breakign parts means ruined rides, wasted money and possibly injuries, even serious.

an extra 2-5 lbs on your bike will only make you work harder ... when pedalling you get a better workout and on the way down a better strength workout when working the bike through the terrain.

i'm not advocating a return to the banshee scream / monsters / 3.0 Gazzy days, but personally, i'd rather err a little on the over-built side than the other way ... and that means no xc parts on a shore bike.

[freakonaleash]

Stem and post will be fine. But id watch the saddle. I think the big question for you is, would you rather have to ride careful so your bike is slightly lighter (you wouldnt notice) or just put on the parts that are meant for waht your doing.

[Tonestar]

As far as saddles go, the lighter more expensive saddles tend to have the better quality rails (titanium). Check out the WTB Team or Stealth catagories, they are available in many models/shapes and sizes.

Stems can be light but still strong, check out things like Thompson, or a Funn SMX stem (214 grams).

For bars you need to do some research, there are strong, yet light FR/DH bars. Your best bet is going to 31.8, they tend to be lighter than the 25.4 ones, sounds wierd, but is true in a lot of cases. Look at Answer Protapers, Easton EA70's and Funn Fatboy (282 grams). I run the Funn because it is that weight at a 710mm length, so you can cut it down, the Easton that I used to run came in a 690mm length and weighed slightly more than the Funn.

Wheels is where there is the most effecient weight savings, rotational weight makes it harder to pedal. To find a good durable rim at a good weight you will need to do some research. Mavic and Sun are the big 2 brands, both will have something. I found the WTB Laserdisc Freeride, at 570 grams, $85 retail, to be a good strong/reasonable weight rim for a good value.

Tubes, tires and hubs will also save you on rotational weight. If you are running a really beafy DH tire and heavy DH tubes, tubeless would be the ultimate solution. Otherwise, go with a smaller tire (2.3) and a lighter tube, you just need to run higher tire pressure, so make sure you choose a good tire for traction.

[biggles604]

Another thing to consider is kevlar single wall tyres. I just started riding with Nevegal folding beads, and it took a few rides to get used to the increased pressure and thinner tyre, but once I did get used to it, I can't imagine switching back. Wheels are both rolling and unsprung weight, so cutting the beef there will make a much bigger impact than saving 100g on a stem.

[thewwkayaker]

Why does everyone say Tubeless weighs less???

I weighed my Stan's tubeless strip at 0.22lbs
My tube weighed at 0.24lbs

Now, unless you run Stan's without the "goop" it will actually weigh MORE. And this ignores the extra tape you need to add to your rim (According to Stan's instructions).

So going tubeless will only save you in weight IF you run DH tubes. But personally I've never felt the need to run DH tubes and I'm heavy, ride like a hack, and ride with really really low air pressure (which, apart from putting flat spots on my rims doesn't cause me to pinch).

Another interesting fact is that with a tube you could argue that you get stronger side walls.

Having run both systems I can say that (to me) there is no improvement with the grip of the tire, you have to run higher pressures in tubeless which only improves your rotation but worsens your grip (lots of claims going around but never have there been scientific proof that grip increases - hypothesis at best).

I'm not against tubeless at all but with all the false hype about tubeless.... well I couldn't resist.

As for the topic at hand...

Light weight is good not only for making climbing and long rides easier (so you can ride more - bitch less as the expression goes) but for moving the bike around (be it in the air or on the ground).

Parts breaking due to failure can hurt you so strength (not necessarily 1-1 with weight) is important for longetivity.

Bottom line: if you lighten up components you need to check them regularly for signs of fatigue and replace them more often BEFORE they break.

You could learn to make your own carbon parts and replace them often. I understand that carbon parts are actually stronger but cannot be chipped or gauged at all.

[NSTP]

Hmm...I'd say it depends on what brands you are buying. Like Thomson, they don't make XC of DH stuff, all their parts are light are strong, as light as they can be strong and they are high quality. So i would buy a thomson 50mm stem, and thomson post. I would goes as light as a carbon post by a well known brand if you were to take care of it. Depending on the bike AM, or FR/DH I would run AM cranks like Race Face Atlas or Shimano Hone on a FR bike, but on and AM bike i would run no lighter than shimano XT. To me a bar is never sacrificed that's just too nasty of a crash, but bars like easton ea70, and truvativ team bars are light and strong. I think if you spend the money on quality parts you can find light and strong parts that will last.

[nouseforaname]

Cheap
Light
Strong

Pick two.
Top marks for those who can attribute the quote.

[0_o]

Cheap
Light
Strong

Pick two.
Top marks for those who can attribute the quote.

Keith Bontrager.

[HIBuLlitT]

I have a Thompson seat post and the WTB w/ Ti rails, I don't hit my ass
very much and I keep my seat as low as it can go. Same seat for 3 years
and the rails are straight.

Crank...no way I'd skimp on that.

You can save some weight on your cranks by using the Deity stuff over Diablous.
I'm loving mine a lot.

never seen or heard of a stem breaking

And if you ever see a bar break, it's just not worth saving 50gr.

As was said before, wheels wheels wheels, no tubes light tires light rims will
make the biggest diff. That said I'm running tubless w/ my mag 30s and comp 32's haha!

[nouseforaname]

Keith Bontrager.

Congrats, if only more people paid attention to that one.

[nouseforaname]

On the topic of expensive, strong, light seatposts and stems. How many people who have posted regarding the topic have actually broken a cheap stem (not the bolts) or a cheap seatpost (not the clamp or bolts)? I bet none.

Seatpost - bent and i didnt even crash. kalloy. Man i felt dumb riding home - post was up for commuting, so bent quite high and at a silly angle.
I've seen bent stems, but not many to be fair.
Bent seaposts, ive seen everything from RF - used to be fairly common though warranty took the hassle - through to a bent Thomson - that was BIG guy and riding a Ti frame.

[HIBuLlitT]

Why does everyone say Tubeless weighs less???

I weighed my Stan's tubeless strip at 0.22lbs
My tube weighed at 0.24lbs

Now, unless you run Stan's without the "goop" it will actually weigh MORE. And this ignores the extra tape you need to add to your rim (According to Stan's instructions).

So going tubeless will only save you in weight IF you run DH tubes. But personally I've never felt the need to run DH tubes and I'm heavy, ride like a hack, and ride with really really low air pressure (which, apart from putting flat spots on my rims doesn't cause me to pinch).

Another interesting fact is that with a tube you could argue that you get stronger side walls.

Having run both systems I can say that (to me) there is no improvement with the grip of the tire, you have to run higher pressures in tubeless which only improves your rotation but worsens your grip (lots of claims going around but never have there been scientific proof that grip increases - hypothesis at best).

I'm not against tubeless at all but with all the false hype about tubeless.... well I couldn't resist.

As for the topic at hand...


I had to run dh tubes, everything else popped within two maybe three rides.
Even w/ dh tubes I had lots of goo inside to stop it from leaking like a seive after a few rides. So for me it was a not brainer (I only wiegh 185)

[NSTP]

Personally I am running UST tubeless rims, they aren't the lightest, but they work great, and they're strong. The tubeless feel is great, they ride supple, and the biggest thing is that they don't pinch flat. With the right rim/strip and tire combo you can definitely be lighter than with tubes, and more reliable. With Stans ZTR flow or ZTR FR rims, DT supercomp spokes, and a quality set of light hubs, DT, Hadley, CK, HOPE, WTB you can build a strong, tubeless freeride wheelset from 1800-2000 grams plus tires.

[trail worker]

rotational weight will be the most noticable, so focus on that area exclusively at first:
run a light rim-sun singletracks are strong enough for most riders who don't huck huge. A good handbuilt wheel and the occasional true should keep the singletracks going for you. Weight savings over a doubletrack is nearly a pound at each wheel if I recall

think about running folding bead tires or a tubeless setup-I ran folding bead 2.5" Nevegals front and rear with no problems. Riding was usually high speed with loose rock, steep rolls etc. Never flatted with regular XC tubes. The folding bead will save around a pound per tire of DH casing Nevegals in the same size.

these two part swaps could potentially save you up to 4 pounds of rotational weight if you are currently running doubletracks and DH casing tires for example, even more if you are running DH tubes and switch to xc tubes. For the average rider who isn't going huge, the singletracks are plenty strong. If you are a heavier rider, you may find the folding bead tires to pinch flat easily. I wouldn't run them at whistler, but--I never had a problem and I weigh around 170lbs, if you DO have problems, run a DH tube instead of an XC tube. You'll still save nearly a half pound over the DH casings, even with the thicker DH tube.

Other areas where weight loss is easily achieved:
bottom bracket-srtong but light BB's are out there, and the weight savings is pretty drastic
seatpost-if the post is slammed down all the time, you don't really need a super beefy post
stem-don't skimp and get an XC stem, but maybe compromise on a high quality lightweight but strong all mountain stem
saddle-personal preference really..
headset-a king headset will save huge weight over a pig headset

other small things such as steel chainrings, a heavy cassette etc are all easy to swap out when the time comes and can save a bundle of weight.

[SkunkworkS]

Kevlar Nevegals, 1.9-2.25" tubes, 729s and Hope Pro2s made my bike feel like it's not a Banshee.

It made it feel like a set of supple, yet firm, large breasts with no bra for extra weight savings.

It's great. Definitely a good upgrade.

[heckler]

It made it feel like a set of supple, yet firm, large breasts with no bra for extra weight savings.



skenny's back! and i'm liking it so far.

[the Master Plan Dan]

Kenny... your just about as dreamy as Heckler... but not quite!

Dan

[ChunkyMonkey]

Hey!

So I was thinking how to set up my new rig and thought about ways to keep the weight in some places really low, without sacrificing the strength, and without spending a ton of money.


How many people read this part....the first line?

Kevlar tires and/or XC tubes sacrafice strength for weight.
Thompson posts sacrafice $$$ for strength/weight.
CK hubs sacrafice $$$$ for strenght/weight.

I think what he's looking for is which areas don't necessarily require bombproof parts.

Ed: please clarify if you will. What kind of riding is it for? Do you ride like a hack, or smooth as silk?

[0_o]

Seatpost - bent and i didnt even crash. kalloy. Man i felt dumb riding home - post was up for commuting, so bent quite high and at a silly angle.
I've seen bent stems, but not many to be fair.
Bent seaposts, ive seen everything from RF - used to be fairly common though warranty took the hassle - through to a bent Thomson - that was BIG guy and riding a Ti frame.

Damn. I deleted that post because it didn't quite come out like I wanted it to. Nice catch.

[0_o]

A crash can kill any part of the bike and eventually parts and frames fatigue over time. Other than the hardware, I don't see many stems or posts failing nowadays given their intended purpose.

[ESHER SHORE]

handlebars - the Diablous bar is way heavier than the Easton EA70 - i've been using Easton for years and never had one fail / or seen a fellow rider bend one?

for more weight saving try Easton's CNT DH bar - which Easton say is stronger than their alloy bar - but that's where Bontrager $$$ part of his equation kicks in


Thompson stem / seatpost will save weight without giving up strength - in fact Thompson's post is supposed to be the strongest on the market,, but again the $$$ is higher

Having sheared the clamp on a Diablous post but failed to even get my Thompson to budge i'd be inclined to agree with their claim


saddle - if not mislanding no-footers, grabbing supermans, etc. then you could get away with a super light saddle like a WTB Ti or Selle Italia Flite Ti


cranks - try Truvativ's new Holfeller OCT crank and Howizter setup, i've also had alot of good feedback about Shimano's Hone crankset/b.b.

I found my Diablous cranks way too heavy (heavier than my Profile cromos with Ti axle)and a struggle to keep tight, then the b.b blew up!!


rotating weight is the biggest saving, try Sun Singletrack, Syncros BHT tires with Kevlar bead (700-800gms even for the 2.5/2.7" size) and Stan's No-Tubes to replace the tubes.

[biggles604]

How many people read this part....the first line?

Kevlar tires and/or XC tubes sacrafice strength for weight.

If you aren't going really huge, and you aren't a hack, then it's not much of a strength compromise. I started running kevlar Nevegals and was really skeptical, but I now don't think I will ever go back to the DH casing.

[QUOTE=SkunkworkS]It made it feel like a set of supple, yet firm, large breasts with no bra for extra weight savings.[/QUOTE=SkunkworkS]

How would you know, do girls at your age even have them? :P

[trail worker]

If you aren't going really huge, and you aren't a hack, then it's not much of a strength compromise. I started running kevlar Nevegals and was really skeptical, but I now don't think I will ever go back to the DH casing.

Agreed. I think that most people who naysay against the kevlar bead nevegals have an "uncles brother sister blawblawblaw" who ran the tires and started flatting so they just assume they are crap. For a lighter rider (sub 175lbs lets say) who doesn't go huge and who doesn't just plow into rocks full tilt, I think that most people would be perfectly happy running the kevlar folding bead neve's.

[thewwkayaker]

Kevlar tires have two issues:

1) can't run them with low psi. I like the grip low psi gets you and it also gives some small bump absorbtion
2) you can feel the tires move around on the rim when you corner etc. unless you run high psi

[biggles604]

Kevlar tires have two issues:

1) can't run them with low psi. I like the grip low psi gets you and it also gives some small bump absorbtion
2) you can feel the tires move around on the rim when you corner etc. unless you run high psi

This in response to the previous two posts. I was so totally against the idea of kevlar beads for the listed reasons until I got my new Six which came with 2.35 kevlar Nevegals. There were 2-3 rides where I ran them soft like a regular DH tyre and got rewarded with nasty pinches, and a flat spot. I then upped the pressure to 35psi and they feel amazingly stable on the corners and they grip as good as any other tyre I've used. When I swapped the front out for a 2.5" the traction was even better, They don't feel like they are harsh or lacking in traction at all.
Having thinner sidewalls makes the tyre more compliant, so to get the softer feel in a DH tyre you have to run lower pressure (A really good example is the Intense 909, I'm convinced you could ride them with no inner tube because of their stiffness).
I'm now about 25 rides in without a flat, I've hit some decent sized drops, nasty skinnnies, fast rocky sections and some good fast ripping single track and not once have I second guessed my tyres (And I am finally beginning to trust that the Syncros DP25 rims are seriously strong).

I've gone from being a low pressure, heavy, 2.8 Michelin lover, to thinking that kevlar Nevegals and kevlar Minions are bizomb!

[Ed von Schleck]

How many people read this part....the first line?

Kevlar tires and/or XC tubes sacrafice strength for weight.
Thompson posts sacrafice $$$ for strength/weight.
CK hubs sacrafice $$$$ for strenght/weight.

I think what he's looking for is which areas don't necessarily require bombproof parts.

That´s exactly what I´m looking for. That´s why I´d say that the whole "Strong, Light, Cheap - pick 2"-thing doesn´t neccessarily apply to every area.

One example would be stems, so let´s compare the Race Face Atlas AM to the Race Face Diabolus. Both 31,8mm, 50mm length, so it´s a fair comparison in terms of dimensions. Both cost about the same, approx. $99, however the at about 160 grams close to 100 grams lighter than the Diabolus.

The Diabolus is great for all sorts of freeride applications, no doubt about that. But the Atlas AM should hold up fine as well, shouldn´t it? That´s at least what I´m thinking.

So my conclusion is that the stem would be something that would have to be super-strong and super-heavy.

And the same thing, I guess, applies for seatposts and saddles... There are people who´ll break everything, but I´m assuming that a Race Face Deus seatpost will be durable enough for all sorts of freeride-applications if the seatpost is almost all the way in anyway.

Ed: please clarify if you will. What kind of riding is it for? Do you ride like a hack, or smooth as silk?

The kind of riding I´m talking about is, how should I put it, descending? Freeride, downhill, jumps, technical stuff, Shore-riding... I personally ride like a hack I guess because I started riding about a year ago, however this was more of a general question to get a discussion started (which is very interesting to follow btw!).

Talking about weight savings. How much lighter would a set of Mavic Deemax wheels + Maxxis UST Minion DHs compared to a set of Mavic 729s laced to Hope Pro IIs with that Stan´s tubeless thing? Haven´t decided if I should buy Deemax wheels, they´re actually not that expensive imo (compared to other handbuilt wheelsets), but I´m not sure about the weight savings?

[JLW124]

Wow, I'm really surprised by all the positive experiences with kevlar Nevegals. I tried them (2.35s on Mavic 729s) and had lots of trouble with pinch flats and pointy-things piercing the sidewall. I also found that they rode somewhat harshly at higher pressures.

[Ed von Schleck]

Wow, I'm really surprised by all the positive experiences with kevlar Nevegals. I tried them (2.35s on Mavic 729s) and had lots of trouble with pinch flats and pointy-things piercing the sidewall. I also found that they rode somewhat harshly at higher pressures.

Which version of them did you use on your bike? I used to use them on my bike and was actually quite happy with the way they performed, then however I rode a bike spec´d with 2.5 Highroller DHs and got really used to that setup. So the next day I got on my bike that was still equipped with the single-walled Nevegals, I washed out 3 or 4 times within an hour of riding and totally hated them since then.

Btw. did you guys know that Maxxis is going to come out with a FR version of the Minion and the Highroller? One of those tires weighs in at around 850 grams, so it´s reasonably light, but they offer a lot more sidewall protection than the XC version. Depending on whether they´re available as USTs or not, I might give them a shot.

[biggles604]

Wow, I'm really surprised by all the positive experiences with kevlar Nevegals. I tried them (2.35s on Mavic 729s) and had lots of trouble with pinch flats and pointy-things piercing the sidewall. I also found that they rode somewhat harshly at higher pressures.
It's probably down to a riding style/bike setup thing. I tried some Maxxis (High roller, Minion) and I hated the way they felt, the tyre felt short so I was bottoming my rim, yet they still felt bouncy.

[JLW124]

My 2.35 Nevegals were aftermarket kevlar bead / stick-e XC version.

I actually had better luck with the orignial OEM-Kenetic 2.6 kevlar/stick-e. They worked really well for a while, then the sidewalls just couldn't take it anymore. Maybe it's just that the Nevegals were too small a size...

[TheGiggler]

My 2.35 Nevegals were aftermarket kevlar bead / stick-e XC version.

I actually had better luck with the orignial OEM-Kenetic 2.6 kevlar/stick-e. They worked really well for a while, then the sidewalls just couldn't take it anymore. Maybe it's just that the Nevegals were too small a size...


no, it's that the kevlar Nevegals are crap for the shore.

2.35" and 2.5" DH Nevegal is a great tire. ... but stay away from the Kevlar ones if you ride anything with sharp rocks

[trail worker]

no, it's that the kevlar Nevegals are crap for the shore.

2.35" and 2.5" DH Nevegal is a great tire. ... but stay away from the Kevlar ones if you ride anything with sharp rocks

have you ever ridden around Nelson? lots of steep trails with loose and sharp rocks etc. I have never ridden the kevlar nevegals on the shore, but I actually find the riding around nelson to have alot of rock and to be a bit higher speed than the shore, but that's just my opinion.
like I said, never any problems in the kootenays but never ridden the kevlars on the shore. I personally don't think I'd flat on the shore after what Ive put the tires through in the kootenays, but who knows?

what it comes down to is what works for you. I guess I'm lucky enough for the kevlars to work for me, so I'm just happy I can save 2 pounds of rotational weight over the guys who they kevlars don't work for!

[biggles604]

what it comes down to is what works for you. I guess I'm lucky enough for the kevlars to work for me, so I'm just happy I can save 2 pounds of rotational weight over the guys who they kevlars don't work for!

QFT.
A couple of years ago, kevlar wouldn't have worked for me, and they aren't for every occasion, but the shortcomings of the thin sidewalls is more than made up for the loss in rotational weight.

[TheGiggler]

kevlar Nevegals ... my take ... yea, slow day at work :)

i ran a kevlar Nevegal on the Front of my hardtail and managed to flat it about every 2-3 weeks riding some of the *mellow* shore trails. this kept going on for a few months. now, i do not flat much, and almost never the front.

this year was pretty good for me on the DH nevegals, i did not flat once all of 2006 on the shore with DH nevegals on duallies (once or twice on the rear of the HT only). this is all with xc tubes and decent 30+ PSI.

maybe i'm a hack but there's a big difference between a year flat free, and flatting on the front every few weeks on mellower trails. i could not even imagine how fast i would flat with kevlar Neve on the back, probably every second ride unless i rode super conservatively.

add to this that i know of at least 5 people who have tried to run Kevlar on the shore and flatted them probably almost every second shuttle. in the end (after pissing of the people they were riding with) they all went back to DH casing tires and now are running pretty much flat-free. now, maybe we're all hacks ... good chance of that. maybe some of you out there are smooth enough that you can run these tires and not flat. but i have yet to meet anyone in real life who rides on the shore regularly who would say this.

maybe if you run tubeless, but if you have tubes, forget it. i have a saying ... " friends dont let friends run kevlar tires on the shore".

this goes back to my first post in here ...

- sure i could probably get by with XT cranks, but eventually i'd probably mess them up, so i take the Saint weight penalty for totally bombproof cranks
- sure i could run lighter rims than 721/729 ... but again, i like knowing i can hack it up and my rims will take it.
- and so on ...

light weight at the expense of durability or function is over-rated ...

[Oldfart]

I bought a "all mountain" bottom bracket that had an alloy axle and snapped the axle within 10 months. I've gone back to the DH steel axles with four bearings. It all depends how big you go on the lighter gear.

As in aluminum alloy? Who makes an aluminum alloy bb axle? I have seen titanium, cheap steel alloy and better steel alloy but aluminum alloy? I don't think one exists except maybe for very special road use.

One thing if you go with lighter parts you may want to step up your retirement program. Heavier stronger parts aren't so much for the one big hit but for longevity. So with lighter parts you might want to replace more frequently.

[Oldfart]

maybe if you run tubeless, but if you have tubes, forget it. i have a saying ... " friends dont let friends run kevlar tires on the shore".


light weight at the expense of durability or function is over-rated ...


The fact that a tire has kevlar beads has zero to do with their ability to ward off pinch flats. Michelin and Maxxis are two companies that come to mind who made double walled kevlar beaded tires for dh. It's the stiff casing that helps prevent pinch flats, not the bead.

I agree with the secong quote. My weight, ability and style allows me to run really light stuff. Light weight, low ability and careful style.

[Oldfart]

Why does everyone say Tubeless weighs less???

I weighed my Stan's tubeless strip at 0.22lbs
My tube weighed at 0.24lbs



108 grams for a tube!!!!!!!!!! I think your scale is hooped. The lightest Stan's strips are about 60 grams but as they get wider...don't know what the dh weighs but you number sounds reasonable.

Tubless can be lighter if you were using a dh tube which are closer to 300-350 grams. Then if you also ditch the 1200 or more gram DH tire for a UST tire you can expect another 200 gram or more drop in weight. If you use the goo, it's about 30 grams per scoop. Single wall kevlar nevegals are aroung 800 gram for the 2.5. Do the math. It's lighter if you had heavy DH tires and tubes.

[TheGiggler]

The fact that a tire has kevlar beads has zero to do with their ability to ward off pinch flats. Michelin and Maxxis are two companies that come to mind who made double walled kevlar beaded tires for dh. It's the stiff casing that helps prevent pinch flats, not the bead.



my whole post is specific to the kevlar Nevegal as the first line stated... "kevlar Nevegals ... my take ...". i guess i was not clear enough.

[biggles604]

this goes back to my first post in here ...

- sure i could probably get by with XT cranks, but eventually i'd probably mess them up, so i take the Saint weight penalty for totally bombproof cranks
- sure i could run lighter rims than 721/729 ... but again, i like knowing i can hack it up and my rims will take it.
- and so on ...

light weight at the expense of durability or function is over-rated ...

I have two bikes, one is an AM/FR bike that I ride 90% of the time and I have sacrificed some strength for weight and it really pays off, the other bike is a big bike and weighs a ton, but is totally bomb proof. If I was to limit it to one bike only, I would have my Six 1 (The AM bike) and build up a heavier wheelset.

[thewwkayaker]

108 grams for a tube!!!!!!!!!! I think your scale is hooped. The lightest Stan's strips are about 60 grams but as they get wider...don't know what the dh weighs but you number sounds reasonable.

Tubless can be lighter if you were using a dh tube which are closer to 300-350 grams. Then if you also ditch the 1200 or more gram DH tire for a UST tire you can expect another 200 gram or more drop in weight. If you use the goo, it's about 30 grams per scoop. Single wall kevlar nevegals are aroung 800 gram for the 2.5. Do the math. It's lighter if you had heavy DH tires and tubes.

Well it's the same scale used by many shops. I run standard XC tubes. And yes I was comparing the tube with a stan strip for a Mavic 729 rim.

If you read the rest of my posting I covered the rest of your posting. In case you missed it the result is that I agree if you use DH tubes it is lighter but I don't use or need them and I run 18psi.

As for running Kevlar nevegals (I have 4 of them) they have issues (read another post I made or you can get giggler's view on them). Finally comparing single walled tires to DH tires when doing tubeless.... what has that got to do with tubeless?

Thanx for helping me with the math :rolleyes:

[Oldfart]

whan I used to use superlight xc tubes for racing, often the specialized or Ritchey light tubes, the claimed weight was around 125 g.. so actual weight was probably more. Normal standard xc tubes are around 200 grams.

It is misleading to state kevlar nevegals because having a kevlar bead has nothing to do with it. I had a pair of steel bead single wall nevegals and they will perform exactly the same vis-a-vis pinch flats as the kevlar beaded version. You are right, single wall tires are less durable and more likely to pinch.

There will almost always be a strength and durability tradeoff when you select lighter parts. Sometimes they market heavier stuff when it is un needed, sometimes not. We each have to decide on our own what works best for us.

With respect to tubeless I was agreeing with you. It's only lighter if you were using heavy armoured stuff. But there is a performance gain even if it's the same weight as it rolls better, can be run softer (not necesarily less psi) without risk of pinch flats. I haven't flatted in maybe three years except when I run tubes. That's why I run the Stan's system. With single wall nevegals. Won't work for everyone, works for me.

[NSTP]

That´s exactly what I´m looking for. That´s why I´d say that the whole "Strong, Light, Cheap - pick 2"-thing doesn´t neccessarily apply to every area.

One example would be stems, so let´s compare the Race Face Atlas AM to the Race Face Diabolus. Both 31,8mm, 50mm length, so it´s a fair comparison in terms of dimensions. Both cost about the same, approx. $99, however the at about 160 grams close to 100 grams lighter than the Diabolus.

The Diabolus is great for all sorts of freeride applications, no doubt about that. But the Atlas AM should hold up fine as well, shouldn´t it? That´s at least what I´m thinking.

So my conclusion is that the stem would be something that would have to be super-strong and super-heavy.

And the same thing, I guess, applies for seatposts and saddles... There are people who´ll break everything, but I´m assuming that a Race Face Deus seatpost will be durable enough for all sorts of freeride-applications if the seatpost is almost all the way in anyway.



The kind of riding I´m talking about is, how should I put it, descending? Freeride, downhill, jumps, technical stuff, Shore-riding... I personally ride like a hack I guess because I started riding about a year ago, however this was more of a general question to get a discussion started (which is very interesting to follow btw!).

Talking about weight savings. How much lighter would a set of Mavic Deemax wheels + Maxxis UST Minion DHs compared to a set of Mavic 729s laced to Hope Pro IIs with that Stan´s tubeless thing? Haven´t decided if I should buy Deemax wheels, they´re actually not that expensive imo (compared to other handbuilt wheelsets), but I´m not sure about the weight savings?

I'm almost 100% certain that the deemax would be heavier actually, deemax are not light! i would build the hope pro 2 hubs with at least double butted spokes (pretty cheap), and mavic 721's, or DT 5.1d, or something of that nature, with stans strips. light, and way cheaper than deemax!

[SkunkworkS]

I'm almost 100% certain that the deemax would be heavier actually, deemax are not light! i would build the hope pro 2 hubs with at least double butted spokes (pretty cheap), and mavic 721's, or DT 5.1d, or something of that nature, with stans strips. light, and way cheaper than deemax!

And you don't need fancy tools to tighten the spokes either. Nor will you have to buy another Deemax hub ($$$) if you happen to break it.

[Ed von Schleck]

I'm almost 100% certain that the deemax would be heavier actually, deemax are not light! i would build the hope pro 2 hubs with at least double butted spokes (pretty cheap), and mavic 721's, or DT 5.1d, or something of that nature, with stans strips. light, and way cheaper than deemax!

Ok... So a Mavic 721 is 590 grams, right? Don´t know the weight of the Hope Pro II, so I´m going with the DT Swiss 440 FR, which weighs appprox. 210 grams for the front 20mm version. 36 spokes weigh approx. 200 grams, weight of the nipples is negligable. So the wheel would weigh in at around 1000 grams, which is 130 grams lighter than the deemax 20mm frontwheel. However since my riding style isn´t the smoothest, I run the Maxxis freeride tubes, which weighs exactly 295 grams. I run the Maxxis Minion DH TCP up front and in the rear, one of those weighs 1330 grams. So the front wheel including the tire weighs in at around 2600 grams.

Now the deemax frontwheel weighs, as stated above, 1130 grams, plus 1270 grams for the Minion UST equals approx. 2400 grams, so lighter than the 721 + dt 440-setup.

As far as prices go... a Deemax wheelset costs about 480€ over here... So let´s do the math for the custom-built wheelset with Mavic 721s and Hope Pro IIs. 2 Mavic 721s = 120€, the hubs = 320€, spokes = 30€, building cost = 30€ which is a total of 480€ as well.

I have to state though that I live in Germany (which is pretty close to France), so the pricing of the mavic-stuff obviously is a little different over here. Don´t know about the cost of the Deemax over in Canada, it might be totally different.

And they´re yellow, which would look pretty cool on a bike where everything else is yellow. People will stare at me because of my fancy wheels, and I´ll be able to do moto whips like Vanderham.

Another reason for buying deemax (at least in my case) is that I might get a pretty good deal on them because I´m gonna buy a new bike soon, so my LBS should be able to give me a really low price on those...

[NSTP]

Ok... So a Mavic 721 is 590 grams, right? Don´t know the weight of the Hope Pro II, so I´m going with the DT Swiss 440 FR, which weighs appprox. 210 grams for the front 20mm version. 36 spokes weigh approx. 200 grams, weight of the nipples is negligable. So the wheel would weigh in at around 1000 grams, which is 130 grams lighter than the deemax 20mm frontwheel. However since my riding style isn´t the smoothest, I run the Maxxis freeride tubes, which weighs exactly 295 grams. I run the Maxxis Minion DH TCP up front and in the rear, one of those weighs 1330 grams. So the front wheel including the tire weighs in at around 2600 grams.

Now the deemax frontwheel weighs, as stated above, 1130 grams, plus 1270 grams for the Minion UST equals approx. 2400 grams, so lighter than the 721 + dt 440-setup.

As far as prices go... a Deemax wheelset costs about 480€ over here... So let´s do the math for the custom-built wheelset with Mavic 721s and Hope Pro IIs. 2 Mavic 721s = 120€, the hubs = 320€, spokes = 30€, building cost = 30€ which is a total of 480€ as well.

I have to state though that I live in Germany (which is pretty close to France), so the pricing of the mavic-stuff obviously is a little different over here. Don´t know about the cost of the Deemax over in Canada, it might be totally different.

And they´re yellow, which would look pretty cool on a bike where everything else is yellow. People will stare at me because of my fancy wheels, and I´ll be able to do moto whips like Vanderham.

Another reason for buying deemax (at least in my case) is that I might get a pretty good deal on them because I´m gonna buy a new bike soon, so my LBS should be able to give me a really low price on those...

OK so here it is: a mavic 721 weighs 530g give or take 10g, a DT 5.1d weighs
500g. A Hope pro II front hub weighs 176g, and the rear is 298g. If your build with double butted spokes you'll get a lighter more resilient spoke, they weigh 382g for two wheels. If you still want strength but maximum weight savings the DT super comps weigh 318g for two wheels. nipples for two wheels are 65g for brass, and 20g for aluminum. So for both wheels with the lighter spokes and 721's they would weigh 1872g for the pair w/o rim strips.

[Ed von Schleck]

OK so here it is: a mavic 721 weighs 530g give or take 10g, a DT 5.1d weighs
500g. A Hope pro II front hub weighs 176g, and the rear is 298g. If your build with double butted spokes you'll get a lighter more resilient spoke, they weigh 382g for two wheels. If you still want strength but maximum weight savings the DT super comps weigh 318g for two wheels. nipples for two wheels are 65g for brass, and 20g for aluminum. So for both wheels with the lighter spokes and 721's they would weigh 1872g for the pair w/o rim strips.

Lol ok, victory definitely goes to you. :) Don´t know, maybe I´m gonna end up getting handbuilt wheels instead of the deemax, but also depends on what my LBS says about that... If I can get the Deemax for let´s say 200€ I´ll definitely go for it.

Any news on your Frantik? How are you gonna set´er up?

[NSTP]

Still waiting for the frame, but parts will list as follows:
Frantik frame - DHX 5.0 coil (for now)
Totem 2-step 1.5
Wheels - DT 440/DT competition spokes/mavic823 rims
Thomson post
FSA 1.5 DH300 60mm stem
Truvativ team bar 31.8
FSA Orbit extreme pro 1.5 headset
Maxxis minion UST 2.5 F
Maxxis Highroller UST 2.35 R
Sram XO rear Derailleur
Saint Front Derailleur
Truvativ Holzfeller OCT howitzer cranks
Wellgo MG-1 Pedals
Blackspire stinger chainguide ISCG 05
Sram pg-990 cassette
Sram pc-991 chain
Sram XO shifters
ODI lock-ons
Avid code brakes 203/185
WTB devo or pure V stealth saddle

[DrewM]

Still waiting for the frame, but parts will list as follows:
Frantik frame - DHX 5.0 coil (for now)
Totem 2-step 1.5
Wheels - DT 440/DT competition spokes/mavic823 rims
Thomson post
FSA 1.5 DH300 60mm stem
Truvativ team bar 31.8
FSA Orbit extreme pro 1.5 headset
Maxxis minion UST 2.5 F
Maxxis Highroller UST 2.35 R
Sram XO rear Derailleur
Saint Front Derailleur
Truvativ Holzfeller OCT howitzer cranks
Wellgo MG-1 Pedals
Blackspire stinger chainguide ISCG 05
Sram pg-990 cassette
Sram pc-991 chain
Sram XO shifters
ODI lock-ons
Avid code brakes 203/185
WTB devo or pure V stealth saddle

That's going to be SWEET.

Personally, I'd run a Thomson 1.5 stem instead (definite weight savings), a set of Shimano XT cranks (weight savings, plenty durable for 90% of the riders out there) and either Saint or Magura Louise brakes (I don't like the feel of avids)

Small personal adjustments aside though... that bike is going to be awesome.

[DrewM]

Still waiting for the frame, but parts will list as follows:
Frantik frame - DHX 5.0 coil (for now)
Totem 2-step 1.5
Wheels - DT 440/DT competition spokes/mavic823 rims
Thomson post
FSA 1.5 DH300 60mm stem
Truvativ team bar 31.8
FSA Orbit extreme pro 1.5 headset
Maxxis minion UST 2.5 F
Maxxis Highroller UST 2.35 R
Sram XO rear Derailleur
Saint Front Derailleur
Truvativ Holzfeller OCT howitzer cranks
Wellgo MG-1 Pedals
Blackspire stinger chainguide ISCG 05
Sram pg-990 cassette
Sram pc-991 chain
Sram XO shifters
ODI lock-ons
Avid code brakes 203/185
WTB devo or pure V stealth saddle

That's going to be SWEET.

Personally, I'd run a Thomson 1.5 stem instead (definite weight savings), a set of Shimano XT cranks (weight savings, plenty durable for 90% of the riders out there) and either Saint or Magura Louise brakes (I don't like the feel of avids)

Small personal adjustments aside though... that bike is going to be awesome.

[NSTP]

I'm not running the Thomson stem because this was much cheaper, and about the same weight. The XT cranks don't come in an 83mm width, so i couldn't run them if i wanted to. I do love those Thomson stems though.
Yeah it should be sweet, i can't wait.