View Full Version : logging on Sumas
*update* Feb 24 2007 logging has started, go to page 4 of this thread for details*
As of October 6 2006
- Time killer and time out have had NO logging. There is logging tape and orange paint markings in the "freeway bob" section of time killer.
- the road at grafitti rock, just below the time killer road, has been widened and lengthened. there is an excavator parked on this road.
- there has been a new road cut and cleared going from the right side of the main road that heads straight towards knob gobbler (where the downed tree is). None of KG (in that area) has been touched, but there is fall line boundary tape on the other side of the trail, leading me to think at least part of the trail will be logged. I did not check any of the trail above this point.
-there is a clear-cut going through Rok Diva, right where the old bicycle was. Having only been down part of the trail once, I can't comment as to re-routing as I don't really know the line. All the trees are still lying on the ground. At least all the wood we hauled in there appears to be on the "safe" side of the cut.
- there is a new road cut and cleared that goes through noah fear, just after a skinny to drop. Having never been down that trail before, i'm not sure where it goes after that
- there is a new road cut and cleared northeast and uphill from the old logarythms entrance
- in total I saw 5 new roads, 3 of which were right off the main road. I did not travel on the main road above time killer, or below where the road that runs through time out joins the main road at the grey gate.
markings on trees on Time Killer
http://photos.nsmb.com/files/2/3/7/3/0/sumaslogging001.jpg
the "lookout" road below the time killer entrance
http://photos.nsmb.com/files/2/3/7/3/0/sumaslogging013.jpg
Rok Diva clearcut
http://photos.nsmb.com/files/2/3/7/3/0/sumaslogging017.jpg
http://photos.nsmb.com/files/2/3/7/3/0/sumaslogging019.jpg
http://photos.nsmb.com/files/2/3/7/3/0/sumaslogging023.jpg
New road heading for knob gobbler
http://photos.nsmb.com/files/2/3/7/3/0/sumaslogging027.jpg
view of end of same road from knob gobbler
http://photos.nsmb.com/files/2/3/7/3/0/sumaslogging032.jpg
fall line boundary markings on knob gobbler
http://photos.nsmb.com/files/2/3/7/3/0/sumaslogging033.jpg
noah fear
http://photos.nsmb.com/files/2/3/7/3/0/sumaslogging035.jpg
near the logarythms entrance
http://photos.nsmb.com/files/2/3/7/3/0/sumaslogging049.jpg
Hack On Wheels
10-06-2006, 06:12 PM
Oh my. I hope the logging doesn't claim too many trails/trail sections in the end. Those pictures make me sad...
Jonathan
10-06-2006, 10:29 PM
This map was updated on October 3rd from the forestry website. The areas in pink are slated for logging by Interfor at least by the looks of it. It has been a few years since this area was logged and it looks like they are taking the best of the trees out. Small area of KG is affected but it is going to make a mess. Given the small amount of undisturbed area in the general Abbotsford area it is a shame that any more areas of Sumas Mountain are being cut.
The pink area marked SS1300 is right in holiday sauce...i didn't walk down that section of the road.
stillgoing
10-07-2006, 01:09 AM
Those pictures are bad, but it's going to get worse - where there's a loggin road, there's going to be clearcut.
Well, so much for keeping us informed.
Help me, I am a bit irritated :S
I thought that a few years ago, the BC logging companies have agreed on not clearcutting any longer but rather switching to selective tree logging? was that just international media fake to appease the growing numbers of "tree-huggers" and more conservative groups such as greenpeace and the like who came to BC from all over the world?
Where is the clearcut? I don't see it.
drummer_dil
10-07-2006, 10:10 AM
some of those trees are practicly tooth picks
Right now, they're just punching in access roads...the "real" logging hasn't started yet.
Help me, I am a bit irritated :S
I thought that a few years ago, the BC logging companies have agreed on not clearcutting any longer but rather switching to selective tree logging? was that just international media fake to appease the growing numbers of "tree-huggers" and more conservative groups such as greenpeace and the like who came to BC from all over the world?
An end to clearcut logging, hahahaha. yeah right. cut it,burn it, mine it, pave it.
Niggz
10-08-2006, 04:51 PM
YAY KYE! You got it! Here's a business degree and an automatic go ahead from the government! :dead:
rewoga
10-10-2006, 03:47 PM
OK - e-mail sent to Mike Peters at MOTSA - we'll see if we get any help on this one. All you Sumas riders - e-mail the government!
Mike.Peters@gov.bc.ca
Be nice tho - Mike is on our side and he is not the guy who controls the logging - he is the MOTSA representative for BC (or Fraser Valley only - not sure). He wants to help, so e-mail him if you ride Sumas and you think the trails are worth saving. He will be able to collate and forward all of the traffic he gets to higher authorities. It all helps!
I hate to see good trails go down but on the other hand what does it say when we cry everytime there is logging that intersects a trail. these trails are built in working forests and its a privelge that we build there. Look at the DH course up at the SSC or shotgun at the woodlot for examples of how a trail through a clearcut can work.
TheGiggler
10-10-2006, 05:38 PM
I hate to see good trails go down but on the other hand what does it say when we cry everytime there is logging that intersects a trail. these trails are built in working forests and its a privelge that we build there. Look at the DH course up at the SSC or shotgun at the woodlot for examples of how a trail through a clearcut can work.
ya they work.
but its a shitload more maintenance in the open. comparing both trails you mentioned, the wear on them is very fast vs. the sections in the trees. trails in the open are better than no trails, sure, but trees do so much to protect the trails ...
I hate to see good trails go down but on the other hand what does it say when we cry everytime there is logging that intersects a trail. these trails are built in working forests and its a privelge that we build there. Look at the DH course up at the SSC or shotgun at the woodlot for examples of how a trail through a clearcut can work.
But when we work with them...we get situations like Vedder, where they agree to buffer zones.
Incorrigible
10-10-2006, 05:54 PM
What is there to say? The province is built on trees. Nobody can see past them - even when they're all cut down.
OK - e-mail sent to Mike Peters at MOTSA - we'll see if we get any help on this one. All you Sumas riders - e-mail the government!
Mike.Peters@gov.bc.ca
Be nice tho - Mike is on our side and he is not the guy who controls the logging - he is the MOTSA representative for BC (or Fraser Valley only - not sure). He wants to help, so e-mail him if you ride Sumas and you think the trails are worth saving. He will be able to collate and forward all of the traffic he gets to higher authorities. It all helps!
Done!
rewoga
10-10-2006, 06:15 PM
What is there to say? The province is built on trees. Nobody can see past them - even when they're all cut down.
True - but then again MOTSA is brand new, and the BC Forestry powers that be are beginning to realize that there are more ways to make $$ from forests than cutting them down.
So - send Mike Peters and e-mail. And remember - when you admit defeat - you are definately defeated!
What is there to say? The province is built on trees. Nobody can see past them - even when they're all cut down.
How about something like this?
While I do not object to logging, it would be a shame to see trails which have been used for as many as 20 years destroyed unnecessarily. I would urge the provincial government to work with user groups to develop buffer zones between existing trails and areas to be logged.
Incorrigible
10-10-2006, 07:39 PM
OK, you win. Short, polite, letter sent. I used to work in Abbotsford, so I guess I have some connection to the place left...
All im saying is If I owned land that was a woodlot I sure as shit wouldnt want new trails on them if I thought 5 or 10 years from now it would hinder my logging opperations. It may hurt our cause for new trails in the future no?
All im saying is If I owned land that was a woodlot I sure as shit wouldnt want new trails on them if I thought 5 or 10 years from now it would hinder my logging opperations. It may hurt our cause for new trails in the future no?
Hmm...that's a good point. I never thought of it that way.
At least if we make ourselves heard, the powers that be might acknowledge the trails, and might provide assistance in rebuilding those trails, or in creating new ones. But if we say nothing, where will that leave us?
I believe in the case of the ssc the loggers cleared part of the debris from the cut. not sure though. the guys at the woodlot seem to have a good working relationship going though.
Tom P
10-10-2006, 11:11 PM
Just an FYI: all logging plans on public land go through a public consultation process before they are approved. All issues raised at the public consultation must be addressed by the licensee (logging company). Its a lot easier to get buffers along trails included in the plans at the start of the planning stage. Once areas are planned (laid out), and all the ribbon is hung, and all the maps have been approved, it is very time consuming (and therefore expensive) to get changes made.
best of luck in your efforts though.
Just an FYI: all logging plans on public land go through a public consultation process before they are approved. All issues raised at the public consultation must be addressed by the licensee (logging comany). Its a lot easier to get buffers along trails included in the plans at the start of the planning stage. Once areas are planned (laid out), and all the ribbon is hung, and all the maps have been approved, it is very time consuming (and therefore expensive) to get changes made.
best of luck in your efforts though.
Members of the FVMBA executive have been working with representatives of MOTSA and FVRD about trails on Sumas for many months now, and this came as a total surprise. All of a sudden they're punching in roads. How is one supposed to be aware of any consultation process?
Tom P
10-11-2006, 10:16 PM
All of a sudden they're punching in roads. How is one supposed to be aware of any consultation process?
Well the roads and cutblocks have to be shown on a 5 year development plan, so its not like they got approved overnight. The public meetings for development plans are advertised in local papers and at the Ministry of Forests Office, which in this case would be in Chilliwack.
The FVMBA may have been in consultation for many months, but I bet these cutblocks have been on the development plan for many years now.
Forest management occurs on a scale of years. Nothing happens quickly. It's easier to be proactive than reactive when dealing with land management issues. If they are already building roads and falling trees, I would chock it up as a learning lesson and try to be involved at an earlier stage next time. sorry if thats not what you want to hear.
An end to clearcut logging, hahahaha. yeah right. cut it,burn it, mine it, pave it.
So it was a fake....damn. :( this really depresses me - as a sensitive person you have to see a clearcut area just once to have the urgent need of beating the execs to pulp.
stillgoing
10-12-2006, 04:44 PM
Snipped from an email received this afternoon:
I just reviewed some of the logging and can advise you that some trails on the mountain especially outside of the park will have some level of impact as a result of the current activities. With blasting scheduled for as early as next week, I would advise all users to find alternative areas to ride until their work is complete. It makes no sense at this time to start working on any trails until the harvesting is done.
So..... ride somewhere else for now, I suppose. We'll see what we can do to get more info.
partswhore
10-12-2006, 04:55 PM
Blasting next week!? Not.
I was hiking up Rock Diva last Thursday the 5th, and heard/felt the blasting signal and then the blast up off the lookout road offshoot, right near the Time Killer cabin.
Kinda scary actually at the moment. We couldnt have been more than 100 meters away at the time.
Well the roads and cutblocks have to be shown on a 5 year development plan, so its not like they got approved overnight. The public meetings for development plans are advertised in local papers and at the Ministry of Forests Office, which in this case would be in Chilliwack.
The FVMBA may have been in consultation for many months, but I bet these cutblocks have been on the development plan for many years now.
Forest management occurs on a scale of years. Nothing happens quickly. It's easier to be proactive than reactive when dealing with land management issues. If they are already building roads and falling trees, I would chock it up as a learning lesson and try to be involved at an earlier stage next time. sorry if thats not what you want to hear.
I'm grateful for the "inside scoop" on how the forest industry works. I'm not really trying to stop anything...I'll just wait until the logging is done and then I'll be up there helping to re-build.
The original point of the thread was to update the actual conditions...there were posts in 2 other threads that stated that part of Time Killer had been clearcut, which is not the case (at least yet).
I hiked up Time Out and Time Killer today (saturday Oct 14) and there hasn't been any logging yet. I didn't see anyone else up there. I just hope the trail isn't going to be logged for a few more weeks so my broken hand can heal and I can have one last ride on the trail as we know it.
Tom P
10-14-2006, 09:11 PM
I hiked up Time Out and Time Killer today (saturday Oct 14) and there hasn't been any logging yet.
From the looks of your pictures they have just felled the trees for the road right of ways. Road building occurs under a seperate permit from the actual logging of the block. Its quite possible they wont start logging for months after the roads are finished, or they may start sooner :/ .
Jonathan
10-14-2006, 10:31 PM
The Chilliwack Forest Districts treatment of Sumas Mountain has not been exactly stellar. All the logging presently taking place is on Crown Land. Logging on Chadsey Creek resulted in a debris slide that derailed a coal train. The north park boundary has been cut into. The woodlot is a crown license as well. It would have been nice to have seen corridors for the Centennial traill whiich has been there since 1967. Instead it goes through a clearcut.
The last time consultation was done on a logging plan on Sumas mountain was the late 1980's. At the time a morratorium on logging was put in place because about 10 times the sustainable level of cutting had been done. It is pretty well time that the cutting stop as there are other uses for this area incompatible with cutting.
partswhore
10-14-2006, 11:35 PM
Hear hear! Agreed!
From the looks of your pictures they have just felled the trees for the road right of ways.
Yes, that is the case. How can I find out what exactly the plan is? I've been hunting around the MOF website, but can't find anything to do with Sumas.
More potentially bad news: my wife, who works in real estate, received a call from someone representing a group of landowners looking to DEVELOP 300 acres of property.
onepunch
10-15-2006, 01:30 PM
Yes, that is the case. How can I find out what exactly the plan is? I've been hunting around the MOF website, but can't find anything to do with Sumas.
More potentially bad news: my wife, who works in real estate, received a call from someone representing a group of landowners looking to DEVELOP 300 acres of property.
I agree,that is a much worse to losing trails. There wil be no rebuilding on housing developments. I am sure some filthy rich developer is frothing at the mouth regarding the area, and the potential big $$$ they can obtain.
partswhore
10-15-2006, 02:01 PM
So just to clarify, we work with the woodlot owners/loggers so we can have trails on said land yet all they're going to do is mass clearcut?
Why cant we build whatever we want if they're just going to mow the forest anyway.
Tom P
10-15-2006, 02:13 PM
How can I find out what exactly the plan is?
contact the Ministry of Forests and Range in Chilliwack and someone there should be able to answer your questions.
So just to clarify, we work with the woodlot owners/loggers so we can have trails on said land yet all they're going to do is mass clearcut?
Being part of the process is always better than being outside the loop. Remember that these cutblocks were probably planned before the FVMBA even existed. If the FVMBA can get involved in the process at an early stage maybe they can get the plans to include buffers on trails etc. At a minimum they will know where logging will be taking place in the future so they can reroute trails etc. and it wont come as a surprise.
And at the most these cutblocks will be less than 40 ha.
and a logged trail is better than a paved one. Trees grow back in cuts, but they dont in subdivisions.
I got a reply from Mike Peters of MOTSA:
Thank-you for your email, a number of the things have happened in the
last few days and your concerns have not fallen on deaf ears. I've been
in touch with Mr Harder of the FVMBA and also with MOF and the numbered
company which will be involved with the logging on the mountain. This
will be a complex issue that will take sometime to resolve, but I will
state that my position is to identify your concerns and assist your club
in whatever area I can. I am meeting with Mr Harder next week to go
what plans that are in place and to identify areas that will be in
conflict.
drummer_dil
10-21-2006, 04:13 PM
isnt it a "rule" that when a company clear cuts they have to clear the trail? or is that somthing that the company decides?
crucifunkin
10-21-2006, 08:10 PM
Just a thought, I'm thinking the different mtb organizations should approach the powers that be and ask for some help in restoring the trails that are impacted. I'm picturing the most experienced trail builders out there directing an operator on a machine (provided by logging co.) to rough in the parts of the trails that where disturbed. This would be a huge concession from the government, but would be a great show of good faith and would save hundreds if not thousands of man hours of manual trail work.
Gary Harder
10-24-2006, 03:59 PM
well we just finished our meeting and it looks as good as I have ever seen.
Met with the logging contractor at same time,as well as MOF/ MOTSA/FVMBA.
goal #1 we will either use our gps maps or Motsa will get a map made of the mtn with our trails. This has already started.
MOF will enter into a contract with fvmba once trails have been mapped and it's my understanding a insurance policy will be made available to us.
The logging soon to start will be done with in three weeks of start,the contractor will assist us at his cost for some equipment work to help remedy the damage. You must understand logging rights and the cut block were decided a long time ago.
MOF told us once the trails are mapped and approved a process that could quickly take place as mof /motsa have critera decided .
Once the trails are legalized (sumas should be no major problem as trails on sumas have been deliberately left out of huge laddered drops etc..)
Even stunts ,will be allowed (go arounds will be needed) signage (IMBA STANDARDS) we will have to work towards keeping liability in check ,but with go arounds ,signage it will boil down to imo risk /versus hazards
we can work within the system.
Motsa's Mike Peters has shown a letsgo attitude towards fvmba
we have a $5.000.00 grant from them which will be put towards
the mapping cost so we can start the legalizing of sumas trail network
Once legal motsa will look towards a yearly budget for fvmba to keep trails in shape and fvmba will pass a motion over stewartship of the trails.
Motsa /MOF and as luck would have it the logging contractor were all at our meeting,very productive.
in future fvmba can look to more recognition of trails and help $$ to repair /replace our trails if effected by logging.
We will simply be another party who have rights when future logging comes up.
There is room for everyone on Sumas,houses are much more of a danger than loggers,and fvmba recognizes we are building our trails in a working forest.
FVMBA AGM is coming soon, think of joining , maybe a director ? or coming out to a trail day?
Show your faith in what the fvmba is doing ,support us by getting a membership.
gary
stillgoing
10-24-2006, 04:26 PM
Just a thought, I'm thinking the different mtb organizations should approach the powers that be and ask for some help in restoring the trails that are impacted. I'm picturing the most experienced trail builders out there directing an operator on a machine (provided by logging co.) to rough in the parts of the trails that where disturbed. This would be a huge concession from the government, but would be a great show of good faith and would save hundreds if not thousands of man hours of manual trail work.
Definately... This was spoken of in the meeting today. Not only did MoTSA offer to put some $$ toward that, but the logging contractor said it was likely they'd do some of the work at no cost to us.
Hey.... wanna join our exec? I like the way you think, and our AGM is coming up soon.
mettlehead
10-24-2006, 07:01 PM
congrats on starting dialouge with motsa/mof. it is a critical first step.
this system is still being developed and in my opinion it will be at least 18 months if not 2 years before it is functing properly. sorca turned in mountain bike maps in august of last year with the promise that the "leagalizing" of the local trails would be streamlined. we are still waiting for this to take place.
motsa is attempting to create a policy for mtbing on crown land. myself and another sorca executive member sat in at these meetings. if and when this policy comes to be and it was due out in april of this year it seems like it will have the power to alter the way we know trails issues today. both in good and bad ways.
WE ALL NEED TO GET INVOLVED WITH OUR LOCAL BIKE CLUBS!!!!!!
one of the biggest stumbling blocks is the liabilaty issue. as it stands motsa is wanting (insert bike club name here) to look after (xyz trail or xyz area) and to do that we would enter into an agreement with motsa and have to provide insurance. motsa does not have any insurance policy available to clubs and this is a huge part of the problem. as well xyz club would be responsible for maintance of said trails. what happens if joe tourist from podunk idaho goes down one of these club insured trails and hurts himself and then decides to sue motsa and the club. or how about miss dog walker from kits who slips on a root and sues. as a club member i could be held responsible for any settlement. sorca from the first time this idea was mentioned we have stated that no club should be responsible for liability insurance on the trails. it is just not fair to the 10% of mountain bikers who are club members to shoulder the $$ obligation for the other 90% who are not members.
as well motsa is going to start to promote mtb tourism in a big way over the next 5 years. do you want to vollinteer your trail work time on a trail you built because you love the sport so that abc tour company can come along and have 10 tourists from where ever paying big $$ and not leave anything beind except more trail maintance.
i know motsa up here has 0 budget to toss towards trails. we have been involved with mof/motsa on trails issues for over 10 years and since august 2005 when we presented the squamish mtb master plan to mof the process has slowed to a snails pace.
our motsa rep is a good guy as i am sure most if not all the motsa reps are. they are a new ministry however with little to no clout and they have been thrust into competeing for the same land base as mof used to administer. again i must say this whole motsa/mof/outdoor recreationalist issue is huge and is going to take time to figure out.
That's great news guys!
When is the AGM?
rewoga
10-30-2006, 01:58 PM
Tom - you were up the other day - any more logging news?
stillgoing
10-30-2006, 04:11 PM
I was up saturday - nothing new, other than the roads Tom already described. I GPS'd the beginning of two of them, and all of the one heading towads KnobGobbler.
I took a look also at the cut markings on TK. Yuch. Right from Freeway Bob sign, down.
Headed up Sunday, hiked up time out and time killer and then down the road. No logging yet on either of the trails. The plan was to check out the "progress" on the new roads they're punching in, but the crazy snowstorm had me double-timing it out of there!
Gary Harder
11-18-2006, 05:33 PM
NOV 18th wind storm has made plenty of windfall but Sumas is in good condition,with no snow on top.
Rode all of the trails.
TK good
KG ,some windfall but good conditons
NFear same
holiday sauce -same
RokDiva- logging slash has made this best left alone for now,don't do what I did. Suffered through slash till finally made it out,back into RD ,not a lot of fun,
top section is impassible,due to logging.
Mapping of Sumas is now completed,back to Motsa/MOF .
g
No logging yet, but there was damage to the TK cabin and a large section of the trail in the windstorms a week and a half ago. Pics are here:
http://bb.nsmb.com/showthread.php?t=88984
stillgoing
01-03-2007, 04:35 PM
Received an email from the individual managing the logging operation up there.
Summarized:
-Road construction and blasting will be starting again on January 03, 2007.
-Work will only take place weekdays from 7:00 Am to 4:30 Pm
-Logging will not start for another couple of months but I will be informed ahead of time when it starts
So - Please - Say off the mountain during those hours. We may not like the destruction, but these guys are working (somewhat) with us, and we need to stay out of their way. Besides - nobody likes to be hit with flying rock, so be safe.
JohnV
01-03-2007, 06:41 PM
i was up there today building, and man was the blasting ever loud. noah fear is now clear of all trees but watch out where it crosses the road, its really soft through there.
Feb 24, 2007 - update
Logarythms, which John V had been working on rebuilding, has been totally wiped out by logging.
The exit of Noah Fear has been blocked by logging.
There is a new road that cuts through Time Killer in the middle of the Freeway Bob section. I would expect Time Killer will be logged any day.
Not sure about Knob Gobbler as we did not go that high...there was a ton of snow up there today.
Kim took some pics of the logging and he'll post them up later.
pics are here: http://bb.nsmb.com/showthread.php?t=92963
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