Saint vs Diabolus

[DaveM]

I'm in the market for a new crankset. Saint and Diabolus seem like the best choices out there. I did a search and it seemed pretty even, but most comments were from a couple of years ago.

So what's better? I like the look of both, I'm sure they're both plenty strong, pricing is close, as well as weight.

[schoenrock]

i own 2 sets of saints and never had a problem. my first set is over 2 years old and my other is around 6 months old and theyre both still going strong, never even had to touch the bb.
what sold me on the first set was the price(you can find them cheap), the second was an easy sale after the satisfaction i received from my first set.
shop around, i bought both sets new for under $250 each.

edit:forgot to mention they're saints

[bighitter]

my dad run saints on his bullit and diabolus on his demo. he prefers the saint over the diabolus but hasn't had any problems with either. he likes the set-up on the saints because of the pinch bolts.

i've heard the bearings last longer on the diabolus.

i have both but have yet to use the RF's. i'm actually think of selling them and getting the Atlas cranks.

RF's look nice IMO

[fattirerider]

I have two sets of the Diabolus. Stiff and look sick. Never had a problem and maintenance free!

[peachy-B]

The bearings last longer on Saint... I run RF and the bearings got toast after less than 6 months. get SAINT!

[FreaK]

i ride in winter, this is their second winter and my diabolus bb seems totally fine. That's montreal winter not van winter, ie; mucho salt con sand y mas water. i ride street mostly.

[SysCo.]

Saints totally wheres it at!
mine havent had a single problem.

[SkunkworkS]

The bearings last longer on Saint... I run RF and the bearings got toast after less than 6 months. get SAINT!

Yup. I pulled my RF bearings out the other day. Totally seized with chunks of unidentified metal inside the bearings. All rusted up. 4 months of mainly street/DJ riding.

Good thing Orange has a nice catalogue stocked with bearings...

[::Liam::]

i like the doabolus over the saints becasue our shuttles hold on by the crank arm and saints are physically to wide to fit in. therefore you strap your bike on the end, or push...

my diabolus have been in and out of 3 frames in 3 years... origenal set of bearings, have been thrashed and have ben removed with a hammer becase i dont have a extractor cap anymore... flawless...


saint is the same no maintenece perfect runing but well its a long push to the top of the hill...


(saints actually do fit in the trailers but need hammering down and metal gets scraped off the crank as it goes into the crank holder thingy)

[TheGiggler]

Saint.

there was a recent NSMB review where the RF BB felt like ass on a brand new bike ... which is certainly something i remember about RF. and then you hear all these reports of people who aren't abusing their bikes and the BB lasts about 4 months.

meanwhile, getting 1 year out of a Saint BB is pretty normal.

[DaveM]

Wow, 1 year? I've been getting an average of 2-3 years on Isis bottom brackets. I thought this new outboard bearing system was supposed to be better.

What about Shimano Hone. They're alot lighter, same bearings. I'm not particularly hard on cranks, I'm on my second set since 2001. I wonder if I can get away with a lighter set. I'm using Holzfellers now.

[APT]

Another vote for Saints right here. This is the second winter on the saints and the bearings are still smooth as day 1.

[Uncle Duke]

i have had the same set of diablous on my bike for 24 months. no maitenance at all..my bearings dont feel like ass. buy local, shimano can kiss my a$$.

[slider32]

What about Shimano Hone. They're alot lighter, same bearings. I'm not particularly hard on cranks, I'm on my second set since 2001. I wonder if I can get away with a lighter set. I'm using Holzfellers now.


I have a set of the Hone cranks, 0 problems with them so far, but I change my pedals a lot, and I am a bit worried about the lack of a steel insert on the crankarm.

[TheGiggler]

Wow, 1 year? I've been getting an average of 2-3 years on Isis bottom brackets. I thought this new outboard bearing system was supposed to be better.



not everyone rides the same amount... nor all winter where the real damage gets done... water is the killer. the best i could do with any ISIS BB was 3-4 months and at this point it would be toast ...

so, anyways, outboard is much better ...

1 year is the low side anyways ... mine are still going strong after longer.

[Uncle Duke]

i ride my bike a fair bit and def all yr round..no probs w bearings at all.I think its a myth.

[ERregular]

The Hones are probably the best choice if you are not hard on cranks. THey are ~200g lighter than Saints (same weight as the RF Atlas) and the new Hone Double is available with a cr-mo axle and steel pedal inserts. Cheaper, too.

I have a pair of Saints sitting in a box waiting for a frame, but they are going on a more FR oriented bike - and I am really hard on cranks. If I was building a trail bike, I'd go Hone Double for sure.

[Kye]

Saints for sure, I'v always run into problems with the diablous but never had any problems with the saints, I'v never had to change bearings, and i'v probally seen a hundred sets of them.

[smoochy]

as much as i support the "buy local" notion, i vote saint for several reasons:

1) to my knowledge, they pioneered the outboard bearing systems (i'm sure if i'm wrong, i will be corrected in a hurry).
2) hollow pipe vs. I-beam. to maximize stiffness, you need to move material away from the neutral axis. both hollow pipe and I-beams are good in bending, but the hollow pipe is superior for torsion.
3) mounting. pre-load and pinch, just like your highly successful stem connection. simple and bombproof. RF's mounting system seems overcomplicated.

Overall, the shimano product is much better thought out. RF's engineers need to sharpen their pencils a bit on this one.

oh yeah, considering that the BB cups are interchangeable, don't let the bearing quality slow you down too much.

[thedude]

1) to my knowledge, they pioneered the outboard bearing systems (i'm sure if i'm wrong, i will be corrected in a hurry).

Is this fast enough.

Apparently Race Face and Shimano worked together to develop the new outboard bearing standard.

[seand]

3 of our bikes have saints on them...soon I will be adding saints to a 4th bike.

They install super easy, are reasonable with weight, and they are super stiff...not a single problem in 2+ seaons of having saints on any of our bikes.

Really it comes down to what company you want to support, how available the replacement parts are to you for both sets of cranks, and the price.

Both are great cranksets and both will last you as long as you take care of em...

My vote however, is also for saints.

[TheGiggler]

oh yeah, considering that the BB cups are interchangeable, don't let the bearing quality slow you down too much.


true enough!

[Oldfart]

I have the XTR system on my Blur which came off my Superlight in 03. Super simple set up. The only thing to watch for ir to not overtighten the preload. Snug is all you need. I recently put Saints on my VPFree but used Race Face bearings because I needed deep cups for the funky bb shell.

My buddy had tons of problems with his Diabolus but after one new crank arm and I think three or four bearings it's good now. I think his problems were all caused by the fiddly set up which led to him overloading the bearings.

By the way, none of the Shimano outboard bearing cranks have aluminum axles. All are steel. All of them. I keep seeing reference to a Hone with a Cr-Mo axle which suggests others are not steel.

[smoochy]

Is this fast enough.

Apparently Race Face and Shimano worked together to develop the new outboard bearing standard.

that was pretty fast.

it's good to hear that these two can play nicely together in the sandbox.

but that brought to mind these comments from an article in our own NSMB when Diabolous cranks first came out:

"It was a big surprise at Interbike to see Raceface seemingly chasing Shimano by serving up a bottom bracket system employing outboard bearings. After being one of the leaders of the highly successful ISIS charge I found it puzzling that Raceface would go to a new standard - particularly one developed by Microso...er - I mean Shimano."

also a bit of sniping from RF towards Shimano:

"After initially posting this I received an email from Marshall Rutman of Raceface. It turns out that the left crank is actually 'semi-permanently attached' to the spindle. This allows parts to be replaced individually if there are an problems. The Saint system on the other hand is actually on there forever - the spindle and right hand crank arm are mated for life. If you were to break a Saint spindle you would need to replace the right hand crank arm as well - an expensive proposition."

[seand]

hey dave, if you want, you can wail on my saints some time and you can see if you like their feel :)

[ERregular]

By the way, none of the Shimano outboard bearing cranks have aluminum axles. All are steel. All of them. I keep seeing reference to a Hone with a Cr-Mo axle which suggests others are not steel.

I was prety sure that the Hones (last year, when they were first introduced) had the alu. axle, which was one of the reasons so many people were questioning their durability. I know they are steel now.

[ESHER SHORE]

Holzfeller Howizters...solving the ISIS nightmare

light yet burly as..huge outboard bearings.


seem to be several bags of sugar lighter than my old cromoly setup


Rob

[DaveM]

Thanks Sean. Honestly I've never felt the difference between any cranks. To me they are just something that connects the pedals to the bike.

I'm just building up another bike and transferring parts from the DH bike onto it and buying some new stuff cause I'm a gear junkie. I want something that will be problem free so I don't have to think about it. My Holzfellers have been hasslefree for 2 years. I just want something that will equal that, and I like how the Saints look.

One thing that surprise me is weight. My LBS was saying how much lighter the Saint stuff was. In actuality they are only 150 grams lighter than the Holzfeller set up with cranks and Giga DH bottom bracket. 150 grams.....I think my farts weigh that much.

[thedude]

In actuality they are only 150 grams lighter than the Holzfeller set up with cranks and Giga DH bottom bracket. 150 grams

HUH????

You are saying that apples for apples. No rings or other stuff included........Crank arms and bb that Saints are lighter than Holzfellers????

[DaveM]

HUH????

You are saying that apples for apples. No rings or other stuff included........Crank arms and bb that Saints are lighter than Holzfellers????

I put my Holzfellers (crankarms, bottom bracket, 2 rings and aluminum bashguard) on my fancy shmancy new digital scale last night. 1270 grams.

Saints with dual ring and bashguard are listed at 1124 grams.

I can't believe I'm even counting grams. I generally laugh at weight weenies. Oh well, I can't ride, need something to obsess over.

[seand]

saints came in MUCH lighter than my RF NSDH w/gigapipe bb...i was shocked.

[TheGiggler]

saints came in MUCH lighter than my RF NSDH w/gigapipe bb...i was shocked.

yeah call me crazy but i swear RF NorthShore + ISIS BB is noticeably heavier than Saint. we are talking about 1/3 of a pound here! ;)

[Timmigrant]

My money would be on the Diabolous stuff. Local waranty that is legendary if anything goes wrong. The differences otherwise between the two (besides looks which is personal preference) is like splitting hairs.

[peachy-B]

interesting read....

http://www.peterverdonedesigns.com/bikebottombrackets.htm

[jonny.zee]

^thanks for posting that pb.

Seems lke RF has been spec'ing some cheap ass, low quality bearings lately to save $. The inner race on the bottom bearing of my diablous headset blew apart after 3-4 months of use. That was the last RF headset I will buy.

[TheGiggler]

thanks for the link. jives with my personal experience, that is for sure.

[thedude]

interesting read....

http://www.peterverdonedesigns.com/bikebottombrackets.htm

Very, very enlightening.

This explains allot. I certainly hope that Race Face frequents these boards and listens to what is said because this is a HUGE slap in the face.

[SkunkworkS]

I certainly hope that Race Face frequents these boards and listens to what is said because this is a HUGE slap in the face.

They do. :lol:

'Tis a shame. Never had I thought that RF would be cutting corners to save a little $$$. Norco, Kona, etc. yes, but RaceFace is a new one for me to add on that list.

[sampo]

My saints are running good as new after over a years use. Haven't even looked at the BB once - haven't needed to. I am very impressed, cannot see any reason to spend more $$$ on diabolus, apart from bling factor if thats your kind of thing?

[leverfingers]

As far as this post goes, I'm spraking because I'm a mechanic and I've worked on Saint a lot. It's really good stuff.

Race Face is just frustrating. I've avoided working on that as much as possible after the first time. A frustrating waste of time to install the first time, and then just doesn't last. Last one I saw was on a buddy's bike, and he put it on himself. By the time he was done, he was ready to throw it all in the ocean. It was a travesty. They messed up the tolerance on the fit, and you need to be tarzan to get it together. An allen key bent. An allen key and a pipe bent. A 3/8" ratchet driver with thick gloves to protect the hands and a lot of swearing and sweating was what it took. They know it too! There was a bright yellow piece of paper in the box, warning about the "extreme torque" and "don't stop untill you come against the hard stop" and other such words. Obviously a quick fix when stuff came back from the heat treaters oversize or something.

[FreaK]

well after you saying that, i'm almost glad i paid the premium and had the shop install for me. one way or another, the diabolus design is not optimal.
I'd like to make an observation about the saint arms though, somebody brought up the point that they are tubular and so resist torque better, however if you look at the shape of that tube you can see that they were really not designed for torsional forces so much.

[thewalrus]

interesting read....

http://www.peterverdonedesigns.com/bikebottombrackets.htm

that verdone article mentions Phil Wood...

phil wood is retrofitting dura ace external bottom brackets with their own kit, you send yours away with some money for them to do it. they claim several % reduction in overall drag, and longer service life. for road time trial weight-weenie types, or triathletes, a few % bearing drag might mean the difference between a top-10 placing or top-30.

[thewwkayaker]

Can the Shimano bearings be used with the RF cranks?

[SkunkworkS]

Can the Shimano bearings be used with the RF cranks?

Yes..

[MIKAS]

just buy SAINT

[nick]

well, i have been riding diabolus cranks for over a year and never had a problem. setting them up was easy, for me anyway and no maintenance, put them on and forget. all good here!

[peachy-B]

I have had zero problem w/ how the RF Diabulos came together... just whatever i mentioned before, which is the bearing being really crunchy and squeaky after 4 mons or so of summer use. i like the tool-less crank remover too... but i haven't worked on a Saint before. Looks like it just slides out when the pinch bolts are loosen.

[DaveM]

Well I'm going with the Saint. I scoured my local shops, but quite frankly Jensen's price of $175 just can't be passed up.

[smoochy]

well after you saying that, i'm almost glad i paid the premium and had the shop install for me. one way or another, the diabolus design is not optimal.
I'd like to make an observation about the saint arms though, somebody brought up the point that they are tubular and so resist torque better, however if you look at the shape of that tube you can see that they were really not designed for torsional forces so much.

good point that they aren't circular sections, which would maximize torsional stiffness, but they do have a continuous shell which helps to that end. similarly, the hollowness increases the stiffness:weight ratio by removing the material from the neutral (non-bending or twisting) axis. so some smart design (at the cost of what would appear to be more complicated manufacturing) went into these cranks rather than bigger I-beams with flames.

blah blah blah, i think we've all had some good points, intelligent discussion and surprising revelations. hopefully RF picks up on it and improves their product so we can have the best of local production and canadian quality. i'd pay a premium for that.

[James_315]

I wasn't going to mention my experience, but I decided that that more RF customers who mention faulty/problematic bearings the greater the chance that someone at RF will do something about it. My buddy and I bought a set Diablolus cranks each from Jenson in July of last year. Just two days ago I noticed he had the bearing cups out, when I asked him what was up he said one side had completely seized and he needed new bearings. That got me thinking so I pulled my cranks apart, and I'll be damned, one of my bearings is very difficult to spin (not completely seized yet). A third friend refuses to pull his cranks apart to check up on the bearings and is just going to ride his cranks until they don't spin (which I'm going to do too).

*A note to Race Face - this is CRAPPY and VERY bad for business.

[jonny.zee]

We've all been bashing on RF here, but I'd like to add that when I did have an issue and talked to their warannty dept., I rec'd good service from them. I think their customer service is pretty damn good. I've only heard mostly negative stories about dealing with Shimano warranty issues, but I haven't had to deal with them yet.

[Oldfart]

My money would be on the Diabolous stuff. Local waranty that is legendary if anything goes wrong. The differences otherwise between the two (besides looks which is personal preference) is like splitting hairs.

I take a legendary warranty service like Race Face as a huge negative. In my opinion and that of many friends, their warranty gets tested way too often. True, they stand behind their product and kudos to them for that. But I would much rather never test a warranty. The best warranty never needs to be used.

[James_315]

Good call. Well put.

[Bryce]

good thread - better than the usual "saint rules" or "diabolus or die" kind of comments. That bearing info was dope, no question which ones I'll buy when mine wear out

[peachy-B]

When your RF bearings wear out there's another option. BC Bearings will sell you a japanese-made NSK 6805 2RS for $20 each side. pop your old one and drop these industrial babies in. They are the same caged-type bearing like the Shimano.

Raeside is selling theirs at $23... close. I think Corey likes getting his at this place.

on a side note... it's nice not to hear the SHitmano comment.