What is a fair price?

[NSTP]

For anyone that has been on the Boxxer vs. Travis thread, there have been some of us talking about pricing, and what's fair. Also interenet prices, esspecially from the US, and your LBS. So what is a fair price? would you buy from your LBS instead of a US internet website, or Canadian for that matter if the price was similar? The thing is that many of us are not rich, and there are plenty of us around my age 15-30 where most of us do not have EXTRA income to spend on bicycle parts. Bike parts aren't cheap but there's a love/addiction to this sports that keeps up coming back for more. So do you support your LBS? does it matter? and do you think pricing is fair?

[DaveM]

I try to use the LBS as much as possible, but there's so much variance. One shop will quote me MSRP right out of the catalog, the next will look in the same catalog and quote me much less. Of course it's a no-brainer who's getting the sale. I've bought a few things from a Canadian online store and a few from a US online store. Sometimes the deals are just too good to pass up. Even us old folks with a bit of "extra money" want that dollar to go as far as possible.

Generally if I can get it from my LBS at a reasonable price and it's in stock, I'll buy it there. If an online store has a blowout price on something I want, I'll get it there. I don't really have a shop do any work for me other than pressing in headsets and building wheels.

I'm getting to the point where if a shop has to order it in, I'll likely buy it online. I've been through too many hassles waiting for shops to order something, backorders, etc. It baffles me how I can order something from the US and get it faster and with less b.s. than a local shop can get it from their Cdn. distributor.

[Desloc]

If the LBS was even to pricing in the US no one would 'cross the line' to make a purchase. Blame the retailers or the distributors, hell, blame all the bottom feeding, blood sucking consumers that frequent Outdoors shows paying $10 for parking, $10 for a pass, and $10 for crap food just to see the lastest, greatest... just to show support for the industry and the sport we all love. Yeah, that's it... those damn frigin' consumers. [/end rant]

So what's fair? For a 06 Boxxer Team? Full retail should be $1000CAN and $850US. Anything else should be a sale price.


Des

[jonny.zee]

My 2 cents...

If the price was the same, no doubt - 100% - I would buy locally every time. Why wouldn't I support a business in my own neghbourhood and the poeple I've gotten to know over the years?

Personally, I am willing to pay about 10-15% more to buy through my North Van LBS. I feel that the "extras" I get from buying locally (convenience, service, advice, among others) justify the extra $, but not the 30-40% difference, I regularly see.

Take for example the 888 RC2X, which I was recently shopping around for.

-North Shore LBS price was $1700ish (no tax)
-US LBS price, shipping incl. for $1200ish. (Canadian with tax.)

So I would be willing to pay $1400ish for the fork, but I really don't feel I could get that price. And even if they gave it to me for $1400, I'm still looking at another $100 for GST.

To be honest, I really don't undertand how the US guys can do it for such a lower price.

[NSTP]

Do you think that there should be this difference? If us prices were the same as Canadian price (eg. higher than US prices are now) would you pay the Canadian price? because it seems like people still want a deal here all the time, i would feel bad asking a shop to give me hundreds of dollars off a retail (not keystone) price, that they are trying to sell in order to make money.

[mzx]

My 2 cents...

If the price was the same, no doubt - 100% - I would buy locally every time. Why wouldn't I support a business in my own neghbourhood and the poeple I've gotten to know over the years?

Personally, I am willing to pay about 10-15% more to buy through my North Van LBS. I feel that the "extras" I get from buying locally (convenience, service, advice, among others) justify the extra $, but not the 30-40% difference, I regularly see.

Take for example the 888 RC2X, which I was recently shopping around for.

-North Shore LBS price was $1700ish (no tax)
-US LBS price, shipping incl. for $1200ish. (Canadian with tax.)

So I would be willing to pay $1400ish for the fork, but I really don't feel I could get that price. And even if they gave it to me for $1400, I'm still looking at another $100 for GST.

To be honest, I really don't undertand how the US guys can do it for such a lower price.

I agree - not very many people can justify walking away from a several-hundred dollars savings - it is an expensive sport. What has always baffled me is this - even the stuff which is made right here, in our backyard (RF, Roach, Sombrio, etc.), is almost half-price ordered online compared to local prices - and I bet shipping it to a local shop is much cheaper that shipping it to Oregon or California.

[APT]

To be honest, I really don't undertand how the US guys can do it for such a lower price.

You can thank the CDN distributors for the inflated MSRP in Canada. I understand that they are in the business of making money and being a distributor they take on the additional risk of carrying stock. However, I really feel that they are not helping their sales channel which is the LBS for taking too much markup on the products.

[NSTP]

I also believe the US would have more buying power being htey are a bigger country?

[NSTP]

If the LBS was even to pricing in the US no one would 'cross the line' to make a purchase. Blame the retailers or the distributors, hell, blame all the bottom feeding, blood sucking consumers that frequent Outdoors shows paying $10 for parking, $10 for a pass, and $10 for crap food just to see the lastest, greatest... just to show support for the industry and the sport we all love. Yeah, that's it... those damn frigin' consumers. [/end rant]

So what's fair? For a 06 Boxxer Team? Full retail should be $1000CAN and $850US. Anything else should be a sale price.


Des

So if that's fair retail for an '06 boxxer team, what's fair for a Fox 40, because seriously $1200 for a team is cheap, last year a sherman slider plus was the same price, tell me what fork is better and warrants a higher price?
I think there's a differnce between fair worth and someone wanting a deal or being cheap

[Farmer]

I'd rather go to a LBS just because if something goes wrong, it seems like it would be easier to deal with warentee or something there, and you don't have to wait for shipping
plus my parents went to school with the owners of my LBS and I've been going there for as long as I've been ridingso they usually give me a good deal on stuff

[synchro]

for most small stuff, say a $100 or less, i'll hit the LBS or MEC. for big ticket items (HID lights for example) i've gone online. i basically look at the price difference and decide whether is worth the hassle.

[corey@nsmb.com]

The Canadian distributors have to account for shipping fees, customs and brokerage fees. A significant portion of their margin goes towards this. Another portion of it will go towards the cost that goes along with stocking these items, supporting these items and the cost of selling these items.

These guys are not getting rich.

[thewalrus]

To be honest, I really don't undertand how the US guys can do it for such a lower price.

The US is a market of 305 million people... it's the same with computer stuff, the best prices are available from californian wholesalers who buy hard drives by the 40 foot ocean container load.

[Oldfart]

I support my local shop as you well know Scottie. On-line has some great deals, but if it's something which might require service which I cannot do myself or heaven forbid, some warranty repair, it is so much better to rag on Scooter in person, than to phone and have to ship something somewhere. If the part is low cost, it is not worth the hassle of on-line. Plus I like to look and touch and try before I buy. Tires or things I have tried and like, I could do the on-line thing. But I can afford the immediate serviice I get from the LBS so that's what I do.

You don't see Kim Steed or James Wilson driving a Cadillac ( Although I believe Simon has a Mercedes). Most shops do not make huge profits. It is a tough business and I like having the assistance of the LBS and to be able to go there and kick the tires so to speak so I support them. What's a fair price? One that allows the shop to make a fair profit.

[jonny.zee]

The US is a market of 305 million people... it's the same with computer stuff, the best prices are available from californian wholesalers who buy hard drives by the 40 foot ocean container load.

But does this theory hold water for forks? Does Marzocchi Italy sell to Marz USA for less than they sell to Norco because they are buying more? I wouldn't think so. But I wouldn't be suprised if Norco's "handling fee" for distributing the product is what accounts for the diff.

[corey@nsmb.com]

But does this theory hold water for forks? Does Marzocchi Italy sell to Marz USA for less than they sell to Norco because they are buying more? .


Absolutely.

The more you buy, the greater your break on price. Volume gets the unit pricing down, something that is common in pretty much every industry.

[Taylor_P]

i dont do online stores because i like to look at the item i want and hold it etc. but when i do buy something i have ZERO shop loyalty. ill buy it where its the cheapest.

[peachy-B]

If the numbers are the same... that's obvious I would go locally (most of us will for sure)... but it isn't and most of the time there's a huge difference. at least enough for us here in vancouver to take the time and drive over across the border and pick it up ourselves. if I live in Edmonton or somewhere further up north then I probably won't bother. I couldn't believe that RF products are being sold less in the US than here... and they are being manufactured right here.

NSTP: I dnt understand justifying higher prices due to the products performance. it's subjective, all of us here can't even agree which fork is best... so if some guy thinks the boxxer team is the crappiest and the stance is the best... does that mean he has to pay more for the stance? But then again u could have a dampening made of the sickest material on earth but performs poorly... how would u charge for that?

[thedude]

We live in a capitalist society people. I am willing to shop around for a good price on anything above $50. If the consumer is able to find better prices than the LBS then the LBS needs to adapt to the times. Go out of their way to offer QUALITY service and work with the customer.

What is really upsetting is the whole Bro-deal thing. Try to tell me that when you walk into a shop and watch a bro buy a $75 stickered item for $50 and you have to pay $75 because you don't know the dude very well behind the counter that it doesn't make you want to shop around.

This whole argument and issue is one that can go on and on in a never ending argument.

So really the fair price is what ever you are willing to pay.

[Desloc]

So if that's fair retail for an '06 boxxer team, what's fair for a Fox 40, because seriously $1200 for a team is cheap, last year a sherman slider plus was the same price, tell me what fork is better and warrants a higher price?
I think there's a differnce between fair worth and someone wanting a deal or being cheap

How is $1200CAN cheap when most US shops(not online only) sell them for $850US and include(free) shipping to Point Roberts/Blaine? That's their retail price, not their sale price. A deal would be $1000CAN tax in, being cheap would be $900CAN tax in. The reality is that any LBS could sell them for less and still make money.

I have no idea what's a fair price for a Fox 40RC2, but US side they are ~$1600.

I don't know of any shops that sold Sliders for $1200CAN. $850-950 is more like it. This year's MSRP for a 203mm Travis Intrinisic(non Ti) is even less.

Don't get me wrong. Everyone I know wants to support their local bike shop and economy, but no one gets rich by burning their hard earned dollars... period.

An example would be that I can purchase a Blackspire Dewlie chainguide, made on Anasis Island, for $50 less state side than in this beautiful country from which it was made.

Des

[synchro]

So really the fair price is what ever you are willing to pay.

and the thread ginds to a profound halt

[Jeff M]

I still buy most of my stuff locally, but sometimes the deals online are just too good to pass up. For example I bought a set of Hope Bulbs off Jenson for $325 Can. total, locally I would be shelling out $600+ taxes. Pretty ridiculous. I realize there is no way a canadian shop can sell them that cheap, but frankly I don't care.

Of the local shops Steed gets the majority of my business because I get good service from them which justifies the price increase over online buying (well most of the time, see above example). If my local shop didn't give me good service I would probably by the majority of my stuff online.

[corey@nsmb.com]

An example would be that I can purchase a Blackspire Dewlie chainguide, made on Anasis Island, for $50 less state side than in this beautiful country from which it was made.

Des


It just demonstrates how ecomonies of scale work. If the big guns in the US are buying these in quantities that double or triple or quadruple what they BS sells to the Canadian market, then the US guy is going to pay less per unit than the Canadian guy who orders a fraction.

Canada guy orders 500.
USA guys orders 5000.

USA guy gets a much lower unit price, which is why he can sell them for less, but make his money on volume with a smaller margin. This is why you can buy it in the US for less.

We live in a smaller country with a much smaller market (which is hard to belive as we live in the hub of Canada's bike market, or so it feels.). What we have is a miniscule portion of what the USA has in market size.

[shorelocal]

The Canadian distributors have to account for shipping fees, customs and brokerage fees. A significant portion of their margin goes towards this. Another portion of it will go towards the cost that goes along with stocking these items, supporting these items and the cost of selling these items.

These guys are not getting rich.

How do you know? Is Norco a publicly traded company (did a quick search and couldn't get a definitive answer)? If not, then you have no idea if they're getting rich or not.

Further to this discussion and the points made about economies of scale is the possibility that Norco (or other large, National exclusive distributors) are dictating what the retail price is for the Cdn market. Given that there are no really large online/storefront players in Canada like there are in the US (JensonUSA etc.), Norco can dictate what the retail price is for its retailers. If the retailers don't comply, Norco could just cut them off and not really suffer. In the case of someone like JensonUSA, they most probably account for a large portion of any distributor's business so pissing them off would not be beneficial, therefore, JensonUSA can set their own pricepoints and not have to worry about losing supply. It's the whole Wal-Mart scenario applied to the bike retail industry.

[jonny.zee]

^Exactly! Why did Norco stop supplying MEC with Crank Bros. pedals? Because they were selling them too cheap? Gimme a break!

[Desloc]

The Canadian distributors have to account for shipping fees, customs and brokerage fees. A significant portion of their margin goes towards this. Another portion of it will go towards the cost that goes along with stocking these items, supporting these items and the cost of selling these items.

Do the US distributors not pay shipping fees, customs and brokerage fees on Canadian made parts/bikes too? I mean that's why our prices are so high right?

No matter which way you slice it... paying more for Canadian made products in Canada than US consumers do in the US is just wrong.

These guys are not getting rich.

Ahhhh, the cry of the industry.


Des

[corey@nsmb.com]

How do you know? Is Norco a publicly traded company (did a quick search and couldn't get a definitive answer)? If not, then you have no idea if they're getting rich or not..

Take it easy...No need to inject anger into this.

Who was talking about Norco? I was talking about Canadian Distributors, and there are a lot more than one.

I do know what I'm talking about, and I do have an idea of the economics of the bike industry. I didn't expect this thread to turn to a point where I need to explain my credentials to anyone to avoid being brushed off as though I'm speaking off the top of my head.

I'm out. When a bike discussion turns into something where you start slinging mud, its down the pipe as far as I'm concerned. I'm not participating in a thread where people are going to make assumptions and get angry.

This sort of thing really hurts the forums.

[shorelocal]

Take it easy...No need to inject anger into this.

This sort of thing really hurts the forums.

There was definitely no anger intended, and apologies if that is the way my post came across. I am not angry and didn't think I was slinging any mud.

I made reference to Norco b/c they are the largest distributor that I know of and seem to have a lot of influence, especially locally.

BTW ... sorry to jack this thread.

[NSTP]

^Exactly! Why did Norco stop supplying MEC with Crank Bros. pedals? Because they were selling them too cheap? Gimme a break!

Actually it was not Norco's decision to cut MEC, it was crankbro's desicion. Now, it doesn't mean Norco didn't complain to them, but MEC isn't the only one cut off by crankbro's. They wanted a better Canadian market share so they took their product out of some US online stores. If MEC did sell their products for the same as an LBS or aleast within' a commonly discounted, tangiable price, then maybe everyone would sell more. The thing is that people shops at certain places for certain reasons, if MEC, or online stores are always cheaper why don't we buy there all the time? So if all prices were the same (impossible), or at least comparable then everyone would be happy because they wouldn't think they were being ripped off because they could see more universal pricing structure.
The problem is that Canadian shops generally have to buy from Canadian distibutors, they can't offer lower prices. Magins are stucture to incorporate losses, overhead, discounts and allowances, so if they started off with lower prices they would lose money, and go out of business. The reason is because customers always want dicounts, somehow it's been engrained into the bike industry. With MEC they hold strong, rarely have sales and do not provide discounts, therefore they have lower prices. How do shops stay competative? They try and offer their best service, but as some people have said waiting for distributors to receive product, and then ship it sometimes takes longer than anticipated and reflects upon the bike shop in some peoples opinions. What are you the consumers inputs for how bike shops can offer better service? Or what would intice you to purchase from your LBS?

[M@M]

I like the feel of an lbs. If you walk into a store, and somebody comes and talks to you, and is friendly, not pushy, then im tempted to go back there. (such as steed, Scott) However, if the price of the stuff there is way out of the range of other shops, then I am also tempted to not go back. For expample, Overtime quoted an 05 Scream frame for 2200 bucks. I head over to ontop, and there is an 06 scream with dhx5 on the wall, and its 1900. Can anybody explain that huge a price difference?

[NSTP]

That i find interesting, since many people go to overtime for stupidly cheap prices, so i've heard. Personally if it was a Banshee i would prefer to buy from ON Top being that their are Local and so is Banshee, and they were the first Banshee shop, and would know the most and most likely be the best representation of the product.

[Desloc]

For expample, Overtime quoted an 05 Scream frame for 2200 bucks. I head over to ontop, and there is an 06 scream with dhx5 on the wall, and its 1900. Can anybody explain that huge a price difference?

The 05 Scream frame was priced higher than the 06 frame. Most likely Overtime paid more for that frame at the time of purchase.

NSTP. Overtime's prices are not stupidly cheap. If they were, no one would be using online stores south of the border. IMHO, they are just closer to fair :)


Des

[shorelocal]

So if all prices were the same (impossible), or at least comparable then everyone would be happy because they wouldn't think they were being ripped off because they could see more universal pricing structure.

But then this takes you down the road to collusion or price fixing.

[NSTP]

I wonder how apple sells so many i pods at the same price everywhere, and oakley sells their products at the same price everywhere? Do they use price fixing? because i thought that was not allowed? Or do they just know they have a good product that sells at that price because of quality and demand?

[M@M]

That i find interesting, since many people go to overtime for stupidly cheap prices, so i've heard. Personally if it was a Banshee i would prefer to buy from ON Top being that their are Local and so is Banshee, and they were the first Banshee shop, and would know the most and most likely be the best representation of the product.
yeah. im gonna have to wait a while to get a new bike (as much as i dont want to), so im sure ill be back in your shop looking for a new bike sometime near the end of the year.

[NSTP]

we'll be happy to see ya back in the shop M@M. The reason I put up this thread is to see people's opinions, and to see how bike shops can improve their service. We would improve our prices if we could, but it's not possible, and it's not necessarily up to us. Also it's interesting to see why people buy at different places for different reasons, and what people think is actually fair. Cheaper is obviously better, but at a certain point it get rediculous. I'm sure that anyone that owns their own business can understand. If you were an artist for example and sold paintings to galleries, and you said you thought they were worth $500, and one gallery sold it for $500, and another for $300, i'm sure that with the effort you put into the painting you would be dissapointed by someone devaluing your work.
I'm not saying that anyone will stop buying from the US online stores, or that all shops will sell the same product for the same price. But, it's interesting to see how some people observe the same situation, thinking one is right, and one is wrong.

[HIBuLlitT]

I wonder how apple sells so many i pods at the same price everywhere, and oakley sells their products at the same price everywhere? Do they use price fixing? because i thought that was not allowed? Or do they just know they have a good product that sells at that price because of quality and demand?
I can't say about Oakley, but Apple controls pricing by being their own retailer,
most of the time.

Back to point, I have two lbs'. I only use one period, the other has very poor
service and I feel a little shady. The other has great service, the main mech
makes a hell of a wheel (over a year and still perfect). I don't buy everything
from him because of price. I bought my wife a vanilla rc, paid $490.00 w/
a new headset, Lbs was going to charge $650.00+. Shipping was twenty
something dollars, no tax. Two months later a friend buys same exact fork
for $550.00, he gets a "deal". I would have purchased my fork from him, and
not wait 5 days for shipping at the price he gave my friend. He missed a
purchase when he was trying to get "full" price.

I know that my lbs needs to make $$ but aren't we all "bro's", don't we all
deserve the "bro discount"? I will say, he has helped me out by having some
things on-hand, but he'd make even more off me if he made less off each
purchase by being a "bro" to a lot more people.

I am in no way dissing Lbs', but the price diparity it too big sometimes to
ignore.

[Desloc]

Great service, fair pricing, and great selection.

Pick two.


Des

[APT]

Ok, so far the comparison was between LBS and US online shop. How about the following example:
06 WC at Ontop CDN $1649
06 WC at Steed CDN $1900
06 WC at US bike shop CDN$ less then what on top is selling if you shop around.

Now, as an informed customer, how could you not ask for a discount when you walk into a shop.

If the bike industry can do what Apple is doing and set the price of a 06 WC at $2000 (all shops), we would not be having this discussion.

[synchro]

wow, $1649 at on top is a great price. the best price online right now is $1400 US. i would def take the LBS over online this time around

[pete]

Oakley has a written agreement with it's merchants(stores) that they cannot sell the glasses for less than MSRP because it will de-value their product. That's why Oakley's never go on sale.

[pete]

I know that my lbs needs to make $$ but aren't we all "bro's", don't we all
deserve the "bro discount"? I will say, he has helped me out by having some
things on-hand, but he'd make even more off me if he made less off each
purchase by being a "bro" to a lot more people.

I am in no way dissing Lbs', but the price diparity it too big sometimes to
ignore.

I think right there is the problem. There should be NO bro's. In a lot of stores a 2% margin difference will make that store sink or swim.

In your specific case, there are a lot of other factors to think about too. Perhaps the distributor was clearing inventory and the store managed to snag a couple forks for cheaper, and thus can now make the $100 differnce. And prehaps that $100 difference was given that he had the store install it for an additional $75 labour. You really cant compare prices between two people.

[shorelocal]

What is "good service" when it comes to retailing a product?? Is it knowledge of the product being sold? Is it selection and/or availability? Or is it even store hours and location?

For me, I will purchase product from my LBS if the prices are comparable to other sources, however, "good service" won't make up for a huge discrepancy in pricing. On the other hand, when it comes to maintenance on my bike, I will simply take it to the store that gives great service and shows a history of fixing my problems right the first time. To me, buying product and getting my bike serviced are two different decisions when determing who to give my business to.

[Oldfart]

There seems to be a misunderstanding about the MEC and why their prices are low. It is a Co-op owned by the members. It does not, in fact it cannot by law make a profit. Each member will get a dividend anually if the Co-op actually made a profit. It is based on how much the individual member spent. So the Co-ops prices are set to cover overhead.

I used to work for Brooks running shoes. I saw lots of prices from the manufacturers costs to wholesale, to special wholesale deals for large retailers to retail. Back then Converse was making tons of money selling Chuck Taylors. Most of the shoe manufacturers had their own version of the canvas court shoe. Brooks had them made in China and the price per pair including shipping across the Pacific to Toronto was anywhere from around $1.25 to a little over $2.00 for the larger hi cut adult shoe. Wholesale was around $25 and retail around $50. The fanciest running flat cost a lot more to manufacture in Taiwan. At that time China was not producing top level shoes. But Shoe that retailed for $140, wholesaled then for about $80 and manufacturing cost was around $35-40.

Large retailers could dictate a better wholesale simply because of volume purchased. For example the Brooks Chariot was the most popular Brooks shoe at the time by far. msrp was $79.95, Wholesale was (this is memory) about $45. Superstar would get them for around $29 wholesale and we warehoused them. But they pre ordered (booked) 6000 pairs. R&R would book 2500 and pay $33. The little mom and pop store would book 24 pair and get a very small deal.

So when On Top books or buys frames from Banshee, they get a volume discount which might explain better prices. On re-orders or for a shop ordering one frame for a customer, they pay a unit price much higher than for a mass order. On-Top might have a deal with Banshee whereby they pay a lower unit price no matter what simply because they sell lots for Banshee.

There is a form of price fixing too. Some manufacturers will only sell to shops who agree to sell things at MSRP.

The ski industry had some issues with shops blowing out equipment at year end or early season for dirt cheap. It got so bad that consumers could count on those sales to buy equipment. No idea what manufacturing v wholesale v retail is for ski equipment.

Supply and demand is the law though. If demand is high for a product because it is cool and fashionable or it is a perceived awesome technology and supply is low, prices can be high like those canvas running shoes. Similarly the newest fork with the latest gizmos sells for more than last years. And the shops can't get stuck with last years stuff because after a couple years it is crap. Who would pay full pop for for a brand new but two year old Boxxer ? That's the dilema for shops, trying to buy exactly enough of each item to sell out by the time next years stuff becomes available.

A certain local shop actually a couple I know of. Buy parts at OEM prices for their frames they produce, but they some how end up with more parts then frames. They can sell for far less to the consumer but still make a very healthy margin. I know of one shop which would buy direct from Italy but has been shut down because they were circumventing the Canadian wholesaler. That was a breach of the contract between the wholesaler and manufacturer. I know of a ceramic tile guy who had done the same thing. He had personal connections in Italy and bought tile for really cheap. The tile ended up being defective and the claim was resolved by him agreeing to install another tile at his cost. We think that he still made money because he bought his product so cheaply.

We as consumers do not know who paid how much for what so we never really know how good a deal we got. For the guys who don't get the bro deal or understand why they don't get it, it's all about loyalty and not asking for a deal. Prove yourself to be a good customer and the deals will follow. It might take a few years to establish yourself, but it will happen. Personaly I buy so much stuff, that I am recognized by many shop employees. They want me as a customer and will give me deals because of it. I do not hassle them much or cause headaches. I sell their stuff to friends too. One year I was responsible for 7 Santa Cruz bikes and one Devinci going out Steed's doors. I buy one or two bikes annually between myself wife and friends. Usually from Kimbo too. I like the store, it has a good vibe. So does Dizzy and I go there too.

[peachy-B]

06 WC at Ontop CDN $1649
06 WC at Steed CDN $1900

Now, as an informed customer, how could you not ask for a discount when you walk into a shop.

Hmmm I wouldn't be offended if a person comes to me and says "can u match this price?". in fact i would feel honoured that this person rather come to my store and give me the business than just buying it from whoever is selling it lower. If a person takes the time and trouble to go and see NSTP at Steeds and ask him to match or beat OnTop's price then that must say something about the bike store. That's when the service part actually makes the difference or how the staff treats their customers. If all else's equal, personally I would just head to ontop and get the fork there. why bother haggling and dealing at a store who's selling it much higher?

[Desloc]

wow, $1649 at on top is a great price. the best price online right now is $1400 US. i would def take the LBS over online this time around

IMHO, $1649 at ON TOP is a fair asking price since almost all online shops are asking $1400US... this is not their sale price. $1400US = $1618CAN.


Des

[Desloc]

Hmmm I wouldn't be offended if a person comes to me and says "can u match this price?". in fact i would feel honoured that this person rather come to my store and give me the business than just buying it from whoever is selling it lower. In this case, if I take the time and trouble to go and see NSTP at Steeds and ask him to match or beat OnTop's price then that must say something about the bike store. That's when the service part actually makes the difference or how the staff treats their customers. If all else's equal, i would just head to ontop and get the fork there. why bother haggling and dealing at a store who's selling it much higher?

I totally agree. How could you not be honoured when a customer wants the best overall service and believes that your business can supply it.


Des

[NSTP]

There is nothing wrnog with coming to a store that you like and asking to match the price. Where the problem is, is for the retailer selling at the selling price (now this is not always the case) in the case of these forks it is. How many people on this board, when the Boxxer WC came out this year were hot for it? there were many threads on here asking about, many people raving about it, and customers going out and purchasing this fork. The fork is a current 2006 model, and being only 3 months into 2006, not to mention that our biking season really hasn't started yet (besides us diehards that love to ride all season round) it is very new technology. The fork offers two linked features no other fork company offers: it is and air sprung dual crown DH fork, and it is the lightest stock fork on the market. Now if anyone else has this technology in their fork and their fork was just as good and cheaper maybe this would be over prices. However $1969 or $1999, or $2000 however you want to cut it, is retail mark up (this is NOT keystone), now with like like of other high end forks Marz 888 RC2X $1700, Mantiou Travis Intrinsic $1600 -$1700, and Fox's 40 $2300, the boxxer is a fair price for what it offers. So like Andy said if stores book product they get a deal. The idea for this is so that the company can make some extra money, this will always even out because there's plenty of stock that shops loose money on, that is what the discount is meant for. When a shop takes that dicounted price and marks it up by the regular margin that fork is being sold for less than retail. What are they doing by this? Well they are trying to sell quantity. However when a fork is $1700 it's still expensive, and there are only so many customers looking at buying this fork, so it's hard to sell anymore quantity. Also when they run out of the cheaper booked forks, they would either have to raise their price, looking bad in the customers eyes, or sell at a lesser margin, bad for the company. Also they are de-valuing and brand new exciting, new technology, wanted fork. Then customers no longer see the fork as a $2000 fork, it is now a $1700 fork. For some this is just a good deal for others, other shops are a rip off, and those forks the same price or more expensive and just as good or better. So if a company decides to sell the discounted fork for less, that's fine, it's up to them. But, the reason other shops have it for regular price is because it's what makes the most sense in the long run, and it's what the companty and reps suggest to do, that's why it's discounted. SO anyone wanting to buy a Boxxer WC somewhere else for $1675 i'm sure the other shops will match that price. The shops just would not have had to if the price wasn't brought lower. For the consumer it is seen as a good thing, a lower price always is, but it doesn't necessarily sell more forks.

[synchro]

IMHO, $1649 at ON TOP is a fair asking price since almost all online shops are asking $1400US... this is not their sale price. $1400US = $1618CAN.


Des

actually $1655. then add shipping on top of that. add the hassle of waiting for it. add the hassle of shipping it back to the us if something is wrong.

this is where spending as much as an extra $100 on a big ticket item from the lbs is worth it imo.

[Kootenay Rider]

This is an interesting link I use from time to time:

www.comparisonpricing.com

I support my LBS when I can but I do shop around for the best price. If I can get something for alot less elsewhere then I do.

[peachy-B]

i know u just wrote a whole bunch there scott, but most consumers will see only this.

06 WC at store X $1649... at store Y $1900

and even with all the reasoning that are all valid from a retailer's point of view... that much of a difference would not affect it. De-valuing a product is not going to come in a consumer's thinking at any point in time. They will walk out of a store and just say I've got a good fork at a good price.

[Desloc]

actually $1655. then add shipping on top of that. add the hassle of waiting for it. add the hassle of shipping it back to the us if something is wrong.

this is where spending as much as an extra $100 on a big ticket item from the lbs is worth it imo.

Well it was $1618CAN this morning ;)

Shipping is free to Blaine/Point Roberts from most online US retailers.

I've never had to ship a part back to the US. A service center is a service center.

... but yes, I always buy in Canada if the price descrepincy is less than 5%. My LBS is usually in that range so trips to the US are very rare :)


Des

[Desloc]

i know u just wrote a whole bunch there scott, but most consumers will see only this.

06 WC at store X $1649... at store Y $1900

and even with all the reasoning that are all valid from a retailer's point of view... that much of a difference would not affect it. De-valuing a product is not going to come in a consumer's thinking at any point in time. They will walk out of a store and just say I've got a good fork at a good price.

Yup, a Boxxer WC is still a Boxxer WC whether it's priced at $1600 or being blown out for $1200. That's just added value to the consumer ;)

Des

[NSTP]

It's true no one will ignore large price discrepencies, however that's the way that it actually works. It's better that people at least have an idea. not everyone has been riding for as long as some, and wonder why some shops seem like a rip off compared to others. Most people don't care where prices come from as long as they're cheap.

[shorelocal]

When it comes to multiple stores selling identical products for substantially different prices, there is obviously going to be pressure to price compete (ie. NSTP's long description) and thus, one store won't realistically be able to sell at the MSRP, even if it makes the most sense in the long run, unless there is price fixing / collusion between the LBS's. Assuming the subjective elements of a shop (service, vibe, location, hours, etc.) are equal, the easiest way for On Top to "steal" Boxxer customers from Steed is to offer a lower price.

I think the mtn bike market in Vancouver is very well served, and as such, consumers have a lot of choice in who to do business with, therefore, expecting to sell a Boxxer at or near list and not to expect price pressures from other retailers, is unrealistic.

[NSTP]

Well i wouldn't say anyone is stealing customers, well hopefully not. Maybe just taking away from profits? shops will do what they wants there is nothing stopping them but, ethics. I dunno, it would just be nice like you say for shops to sell "subjective elements" service, vibe, location, hours, rather that try and reduce price for customers to buy there. Like someone said they would have a full saint nomad if it was $3000 or less, but until then they ride a hardtail. If someone happened to sell them that bike for that price they would ride it. I've heard many people express that they do not like the "bro discount" what do people feel about this?

[M@M]

bro deals can be good....if your a bro. I feel that they can get out of hand sometimes. i think each circumstance is different.

[Jay T.]

i used to support shops 100% dead on, then after having access to books and stuff i realized how high the mark up is on stuff, so i have one bike now and dont buy stuff for it:P

[Couch_Surfer]

I've heard many people express that they do not like the "bro discount" what do people feel about this?

In my opinion shops are silly in how they use the 'bro deal', they shoot themselves in the foot with it. Rather then have a measurable way in which to ascribe a bro deal discount (like a card to track your purchases) they hand out discounts in a seemingly random fashion (well, more likely its going to people that happen to be buddy with a mechanic or a store clerk).

Since I don't know any of the clerks or mechanics (at least not since Naz moved on to Marz) in town, I typically don't get any bro deals. Because of that, I'm as likely to go to one shop as I am another. I have little incentive to remain loyal to any one shop since I'm not going to see any benefit from that loyalty. And considering I drop probably a few thousand bucks a year on this hobby (if you factor in new bikes), it's in a shops best interest to retain that loyalty.

Look at any other store that hands out good customer deals - it's usually based on a measurable object, a frequent use card, stamps, whatever... handing out discounts to "bros" for the sake of them being "bros" is just bad business imho.

[Dave K]

I've heard many people express that they do not like the "bro discount" what do people feel about this?

You know, I really don't care what another customer pays compared to me. This is probably due to the fact that I do get a discount at the shop that I deal with for 95% of my purchases. Then again, I have been dealing with this shop for over 10 years. I really haven't purchased many bikes from them. I can only recall 2 bikes in all. We have, however, in the last 5 years bought at least 6 different suspension forks, half a dozen cranksets, tons of derailleurs plus the usual assortment of replacement parts. This shop will really go the extra mile for me, not just in terms of price, but in all areas of customer service.

I never ask for a discount, but they pretty much always give me one and I am ALWAYS appreciative of this fact. If I go to another shop out of convenience (my usual shop is 50 minutes out of my way to go to), I don't expect to get a "bro deal" even though the person just ahead in line got a 15% discount because he knows the mech.

Dave

[schoenrock]

my sale goes to the lowest price, if i want convenience i'll head over to the lbs. shops in toronto will match us prices so why cant they do that here?
for now it looks like the local shops will only be getting my emergency deraileurs, hangers and brake lever sales.

[HIBuLlitT]

go-ride has a nice policy. They give "in store" kick back off purchases.
So, if you buy say a 40rc you get an in store credit of $100.00 and the
fork is $1600.00. So they give me a good deal, and the more I buy there
the more I CAN buy there.

The Lbs I mentioned earlier w/ the fork, also did the same for a other things
for my friend.

You shouldn't have to show loyalty to get the "deal", it should be; you get
good deals and you should show loyalty.

edit: that goes for online stores too. i'm pretty loyal to go-ride, they give me
great service, the fastest of any online store, but if I see a huge sale and I
need stuff I go to them unless they're on my $hit list (beyond bikes is one
good example, they dropped the ball twice). But for most my purchases they
get my business.

[NSTP]

You shouldn't have to show loyalty to get the "deal", it should be; you get
good deals and you should show loyalty

So they just give you a good deal? or how do they assume you are the person they give a deal to? Or if all the prices were cheap you'd go there?
I totally agree with the bro card from NSMB, you don't just get deals at local shops, but ofcourse you have to purcahse one, so not everyone will buy one? How do you feel about the Bro card? it allows everyone to get a discount equally. Or would it be best if every shop gave out their own cards, like a subway stamp card?

[Couch_Surfer]

I totally agree with the bro card from NSMB, you don't just get deals at local shops, but ofcourse you have to purcahse one, so not everyone will buy one? How do you feel about the Bro card? it allows everyone to get a discount equally. Or would it be best if every shop gave out their own cards, like a subway stamp card?

I'd throw that question right back at shop owners. The Bro card gives everyone who bought one a discount at all stores participating. Is that the best business model for shop owners? Or is a 'subway' stamp card that specifically entices your customers to keep shopping with your shop a better idea?

[HIBuLlitT]

So they just give you a good deal? or how do they assume you are the person they give a deal to? Or if all the prices were cheap you'd go there?
I totally agree with the bro card from NSMB, you don't just get deals at local shops, but ofcourse you have to purcahse one, so not everyone will buy one? How do you feel about the Bro card? it allows everyone to get a discount equally. Or would it be best if every shop gave out their own cards, like a subway stamp card?

I think you're missing the point. First to answer your question. I think
everyone should get "the deal". The deal is a reasonable comparable price.
The way it works now is you need to kiss ass or become friends with the
mech or owner. Have a reasonable mark up and that's the price EVERYONE
gets not just friends. If the friends don't like it they are not friends.

Now, if you really need to take care of people that take care of you, you
can have shop "bro" cards. The subway stamps is a good model, you are
rewarding loyalty.

The idea behind the NSMB bro card is to entice a group to your store. Use
the subway stamp model, or make them buy a club card. They buy the store
club card and with that they get a discount. It's kinda like going to sears,
when you shop there w/o a sears visa, they offer one to you, if you fill out
the form, you get a discount. Cosco, you pay and expect to get your money
back with the deals they get.

The way I see it, this is the reality:

Having prices regulated by say the company that makes the product (i.e;
Oakley and Apple) just makes that product more expensive. Jobs is not the
richest man in the world Gates is.

On-line stores aren't going away anytime soon.

People are cheap, i'm one of them. I'll spend a lot of money, but I want to
"feel" I got my moneys worth.

LBS has only a couple of advantages; Great service and attitude, location, and availability. Maybe LBS' should get together and form thier own co-op
to get some buying power to drop prices.

You can only gain so much loyalty w/ price alone if the store down the street
is selling much cheaper.

So, you could gain loyalty by selling club cards, or by giving instore credit via
stamps and such. The problem w/ just putting someone in your computer and
telling them that they'll get a discount once they reach a certain quota is it's
not a tangible. A club card is something they have, a stamp card is something
they have in hand, these are tangibles. Going on the assumption that you will
give your customers a "deal" once they reach your invisible criteria isn't going
to get you customers that normally go on-line for a deal. If my LBS had a
card or stamp program, he'd get more of my business because i'd know that
even if I weren't the most likable person, i'll still get a deal after I do tangible
x, y and z.

Or, you could continue helping your "bros" and stay angry at the on-line and
larger outlets like MEC.

All the flooding here got me spending too much time on-line...:flame: Sorry
for the novel.

[Heatmizer]

I think some of this comes back to personal beliefs - not the religious kind. I rather spend money locally and keep my local economy healthy than some other countries, but at the same time my pay cheque only goes so far so I can't afford to pay 30-40% extra when that's the case.

Time is also a factor - if you need something for the weekend and it's Thursday, mail order usually won't cut it.

I think a store loyalty card or whatever would be a good idea. Or even if you just put it in the computer and also explain to customers on their 1st purchase how being a loyal customer will benefit them, whether verbally or a handout etc.

I've had a few places ask for my ph# to look up in the computer or whatever every purchase - that's just for their records though, has never helped me pay anything but sticker price.

I'm not a bro so not a big fan of bro deals - although to be fair I've gotten a few nice ones when I've had IFO with me, and getting him into a bike store isn't exactly difficult.

Clothing/armor type items that have to fit I'll usually buy at the lbs. It's the price I pay for being able to walk in and try something on before buying it. Only exception is shorts - Core Rat doesn't have a store but I love the fit of Angie's shorts so I get those online.

I agree with some others on here that someone is getting rich off the mark up on Canadian goods. Our dollar has gone way up vs the US but for some reason parts prices continue to go up also. Don't know who's doing the gouging, but somebody damned well is.