a squamish point of view

[mettlehead]

first just some background on my point of view. and i apologize as this has kinda turned into a rant.

i moved to squamish in 1989 and the entire trail network consited of the 4 lakes trail, jacks trail, the mashiter trail and the track from hell (now heck). between 1989 and 1992 myself and a couple of friends started poking around at the ring creek side of what is now known as the ring creek rip-working our way up the rip and exploring the spur roads off to the sides.

1992 sorca was formed and crumpit woods was beginning to be explored. s&m, endo, lost loops, meet your maker and summers eve were built and improved over the next couple of years. the dead end loop, mikes loop and the overlook trail were also constructed in these early years.

1994 the brodie test of metal came to squamish and the creation of cliff's corners and made in the shade. the ring creek rip was opened all the way to the top end about this time.

1995 & 1996 carpenters son's bridge, the plunge and the farside were built for the current test of metal. power smart and the ring creek trail network were also started at this time. as well the first squamish trail book was published at this time.

1997 to present a profileration of trail building all over the valley.

what i am trying to illistrate is that from 1989 till today all the trail construction and maintance with a couple of exceptions have been done entirly by vollies and donated materials. the trail network in squamish has by and large been built by locals primarly for their enjoyment. until about 2000 there was not a very large influx of out of town riders and the existing trail network was not overused and sorca's routine maintainace could keep up with the work.

for what ever reasons about 2000 squamish became really discovered and in the ensuing years more and more people started to come here to ride. then the vast trail network started to get overused and routine mainainace could not keep up with all the work. as well we were starting to see trails being lost to development.

between 1992 and 2006 sorca's executive has grown from 4 people to 13 and we still can not keep up with all the work. our membership has grown from 14 to over 300. we put on over 30 events throughout the year for our members. for the last 2 years we had 2 members of the executive put in 100's of hours to create a trail master plan for squamish. they met with developers, the district, mof and others. they resigned this year burned out. the district did adopt this plan into the squamish master plan on the upside.

now the ministry of sports, tourism and the arts has a new mandate to increase tourism in b.c. by 25% by 2015. they have identified trails and mountain biking in particular as one of the key ways they are going to do it. i can only imagine just what this will mean to the overall conditions of the trails given the current use.

in squamish as elsewhere the trails were built by vollies for their enjoyment and are now being discovered by the world and the world will soon be encouraged to come here by the provincial gov't. when locals see a tour company charging big $$ for a tour on local trails when that tour company has not put in any time or $$ towards maintaing those trails you can understand why there is bitterness towards that tour company.

i am going to assume that squamish in not in a bubble. for the given number of riders in an area in which a club exists maybe 1 in 10 riders are actually involved with that club. for us a sport to continue to evolve in a forward direction the clubs need support. the 10 people of the executive can not be expected to carry the burden of all the work that needs to be done. get out and get involved in your local club. i am sure the current executive will appreciate the help.

thanks for listning. cliff



p.s.
our trail day last week had 8 people out to it. and were passed by 40-50 riders none who stopped to help.

[Uncle Duke]

everywhere you turn nowadays this is a common sentiment..like digger sez in nsx 8 ..time for people to start giving back

[Taylor_P]

everywhere you turn nowadays this is a common sentiment..like digger sez in nsx 8 ..time for people to start giving back


we're next dude. you'll be the first to know because your trails can be shuttled easily. i do kinda agree with mettlehead, that tour companies charging big bucks to take people on rides in areas made possible by the local trail force, is kinda an exploitation of an opportune situation though.

[NooNer]

one kind of funny thing is that the people that built their trails for their use have more than likely given up on them and began on new projects further away, deeper into the bush just to keep a nice line for their own use as they were the ones who built it in the first place. im not saying this is the right way to do things, but when a trail is built for personal use with the bros, then next thing you know 200+ riders are hitting it in a weekend, obviously you see no hope in keeping up with maintenance. i for one would fall into that catagorey and largely i think its the mind set that ive put in so much time, effort, and money to build what i want and now its getting rallied, why keep going?. i dont really know where im going with this, but i can see mountain biking going full circle soon, when all the trails are hammered, no one wants to contribute to the scene, they will eventually drop off the radar. the sad state of the trails will probably stay, and get worse, while the new lines are becoming more and more hush hush. i hate to say it, but its not just squamish. its happening everywhere, no where is safe. sanctioned trails are good in theroy, but everything is starting to need so much attention, we're just getting further and further behind.

hate to say it, but mtb parks are seeming more and more likely as one of very few options just for the fact that they can have FT crews working on them staying on top of maintenance.

[Squampton]

We left a note on a tour company van last summer asking them to give back to trails. Unfortunatly, it seems that to many companies trails have become externalities. However, I am in no possition to condem all tours opperators for thier actions, for all I know some might give back. I do know that in Squamish resentment has been building on this issue for several years. I am sure it is simillar in other places.

[biopace]

The HuckWagon is a proud supporter of NSMBA. In 2006 $1 from every ticket sold will be donated to these awesome folks! Ride the Wagon, support the trails!
http://www.huckwagon.com/

I've ridden the huckwagon on the odd lazy day, and was glad to hear that he's giving a bit back (10% on a $10 ride).

(I'm assuming this actually happens. Maybe Sharon knows?)

[Uncle Duke]

we're next dude. you'll be the first to know because your trails can be shuttled easily. i do kinda agree with mettlehead, that tour companies charging big bucks to take people on rides in areas made possible by the local trail force, is kinda an exploitation of an opportune situation though.


yea thats what Im thinkin, lucky the ferry is a buffer.

i think its okay for bros and what not ..I mean what if I want to go on a road trip?

I just think any money making enterprises , either local or not , that benefit from the volunteer trail builders should make a major effort to give monies back directly to the builders that are building the trails they are using.

[Jack Daniels]

now the ministry of sports, tourism and the arts has a new mandate to increase tourism in b.c. by 25% by 2015. they have identified trails and mountain biking in particular as one of the key ways they are going to do it. i can only imagine just what this will mean to the overall conditions of the trails given the current use.


I think this is an interesting point. I definately think that the government should be contributing to trails if they plan on marketing them and using them for tourism. Look farther up the road at Diamondhead, there's a marked trail, and a couple of huts that are funded by the government so they can promote a backcountry experience. Why couldn't the government fund trail maintenance and improvements?

It would be a kick ass job for a couple of high school kids, being paid a decent government wage to build trails and spend the summer outside. I used to work maintenance in a park and made decent coin cutting trees on hiking trails, cleaning up campsites on canoe routes, etc. Why shouldn't this transfer over to mountain biking? I think that they need to get over the liability issue or whatever it is they're using as an excuse, and if they're gonna promote it, fund it.

[brian]

It would be a kick ass job for a couple of high school kids, being paid a decent government wage to build trails and spend the summer outside. I used to work maintenance in a park and made decent coin cutting trees on hiking trails, cleaning up campsites on canoe routes, etc. Why shouldn't this transfer over to mountain biking? I think that they need to get over the liability issue or whatever it is they're using as an excuse, and if they're gonna promote it, fund it.

that's how Powersmart was built. a grant from BC hydro that funded a crew for the summer.

[Luudwig]

that's how Powersmart was built. a grant from BC hydro that funded a crew for the summer.

Yes and it used to be a pretty good trail until they f%&#cked up the lower portion.

[Luudwig]

[QUOTE=Jack Daniels] I definately think that the government should be contributing to trails if they plan on marketing them and using them for tourism.
QUOTE]

Totally agree with this statement. It also applies to commercial enterprises(e.g. tour companies, bike manufacturers, etc.) that use the trails for marketing or business (profit) purposes.
Perhaps its time to start a focussed formal lobbying effort to "drive" the message home to these parties.

[Luudwig]

thanks for listning. cliff
p.s.
our trail day last week had 8 people out to it. and were passed by 40-50 riders none who stopped to help.


cliff is there any way that you can get a higher profile advertisement out there for those Squamish trail days, especially in the Vancouver area (perhaps you are already doing that). I am not sure if your message is being heard effectively in the Vancouver area.

[FlipFantasia]

WORCA's got your back Cliff, you'll probably hear from Grant soon, if you haven't already.....

Todd

[MIKAS]

we all know it bc,s trail attract people from everywhere , whistler bring people from around the world here every summer for mountain biking only , and everybody know that a bike park is fun but there is nothing else like the SHORE ,
guvernement got to realise that our sport generate some tourisme revenue and give back to the people who make it happen so they can go on with more trails and locations , of cours the bike park concept is gonna grow more and more but where it all started !!! ON the SHORE so its time to give back to the builders ect

[miffed]

Shame bout Squamish, but here in Glasgow weve got the opposite problem (well for 1 trail anyway) it used to be a sweet single track trail through a glade with a berm and a jump, if you pumped hard, then a sharp left right into double track accross a moor with two sweet rock gardens with multiple routes, but mostly hit and hope (its wasnt that big) into a drop to the main path but now theyve repaved the double track with gravel so its as smooth as tin pants with no rollers or anything! :evil: I was bummed, but looks like ill need to make a new trail straight down the moor. :D

[DaveM]

I think this is an interesting point. I definately think that the government should be contributing to trails if they plan on marketing them and using them for tourism.

The downside is, if the government is funding it they are going to want a say in how it's built. And of course the liablility of a government funded project.

Will the Occupiers Liability Act cover an area that has trail work funded by the government, or by the land manager? From what little I've read about the Act, it is meant for unused rural land. That's just my interpretation of it anyways.

[Gary Harder]

This subject is also being talked about on Huckwagon thread.
I am starting to believe we (those who have organized )fvmba/worca/sorce/nsmb /etc... need to come together ,and meet.
All of our organizations are run from love of what we do,but the numbers are increasing and workload is becoming too heavy.
We are not in competition, more of brothers in arms.
I applaud all those who are willing to do more than just lip service.
Those who are just too busy with life, wife,kids,putting a little cash by joinin g which is supporting sure helps,like a trail cleanup day.
too busy ?? fill your pack,cleanup the parking area ,before you leave.
lots of ways.
I hope to be able to make it $$$ to Whistler conference as the last one was the first I went to and the networking alone helped,not to mention I became a better trailbuilder.
gary

[FlipFantasia]

there are definitely some positives coming out of this process, unfortunately the main issues are seemingly being avoided as they are contentious and the gov't folks really don't know how to address them....those issues being, what happens with more technical trails, and is the gov't willing to step up and fund the ongoing maintenance that will be required by driving tourism in this sector.....they are already on the verge of severe burnout by the volunteers, as cliff described, and the people who built the trails for the communities are going to have a hard time being asked to maintain trails for out of town users and tour companies that don't help maintain the resource they profit off of....

[LeeLau]

yo volunteer guys. Im not posting much here anymore but just thought I'd chime in real quick

- Don't get burnt out; i know its hard and not glamourous. I already push paper at work so doing more paperwork for the NSMBA is just not all exactly a boatload of fun. I've been working on the charitable tax return (24 pages now - wheeee) and let me tell you I'd rather be outside.

- if you get burnt out then just take a step back and let someone else do the heavy lifting.

- don't take what's said on nsmb or anywhere else too seriously; people are well-intentioned but don't often realize that actions and implementation are the hardest part of turning ideas into reality.

- Definitely don't take the working with governments and other people (like tour groups etc) too seriously; just remember to do the best you can do; don't overpromise; and commit to actually delivering on what you can do and its all good. You can't move glaciers quickly and you can't rush anything. Just remember it took over 10 years for west van to go from chainsaw massacre to "well maybe, we'll look at letting bikes on trails"

- remember that things take time. remember that things take time. remember that things take time. remember that things take time. remember that things take time. remember that things take time.

- and oh yah - go to the whistler conference. It'll be fun and i think you'll learn a lot.

Btw - this is not meant to knock the NSMB forums or cam for that matter; who has provided a wonderful resource for disseminating information!

[Monkeybutt]

Like the poster above me, I don't post here much but do stay up to date. This issue is not a new one. It has played out in many communities, in many activities and in many commercial businesses previously. From a business person's perspective and looking to other historical examples, you should consider merging the various associations into one entity. Maybe not all in one go but I could see WORC and SORCA getting things moving and then maybe follow with NSMBA. This will provide economy of effort (i.e. consolidate administrative functions and non-value add work) and provide a larger single-entity base from which to pull members for volunteer work and lobby for a preferential position with what ever BC Provincial mucky-muck that might be aimming to promote mountain biking.

Of course this isn't the entire solution, but most other comparable organizations have eventually had to band together to make a real difference in policy.

Just my 2 cents .... take it or leave it.

Edit: of course you may already have thought of this :)

[amg]

This subject is also being talked about on Huckwagon thread.
I am starting to believe we (those who have organized )fvmba/worca/sorce/nsmb /etc... need to come together ,and meet.
All of our organizations are run from love of what we do,but the numbers are increasing and workload is becoming too heavy.
We are not in competition, more of brothers in arms.
I applaud all those who are willing to do more than just lip service.
Those who are just too busy with life, wife,kids,putting a little cash by joinin g which is supporting sure helps,like a trail cleanup day.
too busy ?? fill your pack,cleanup the parking area ,before you leave.
lots of ways.
I hope to be able to make it $$$ to Whistler conference as the last one was the first I went to and the networking alone helped,not to mention I became a better trailbuilder.
gary

One idea that may help at least with the $$ end of things is having fundraisers. Sometimes other commitments might prevent people from doing something during the day (ie, trail maintenance), but they might be able to get to an evening fundraiser, especially if it's something like a pub night where they could drag the other half along. Kind of a form of multi-tasking! Plus it might be a good way of getting new people to join up if members bring friends along. :)

[FlipFantasia]

One idea that may help at least with the $$ end of things is having fundraisers. Sometimes other commitments might prevent people from doing something during the day (ie, trail maintenance), but they might be able to get to an evening fundraiser, especially if it's something like a pub night where they could drag the other half along. Kind of a form of multi-tasking! Plus it might be a good way of getting new people to join up if members bring friends along. :)
this goes way beyond fundraisers...we're talking a fundamental change in direction in that MTSA will be promoting mountain bike tourism around the world and working towards increasing that on trails that weren't built to sustain it....and as of yet, there has been no clear indication that they are willing to fund the maintenance that will be required, they are relying on volunteer clubs to do this work, and that's the issue.....

[ES-OH-ES]

What up Cliff? Squamish is still a gem off the beaten track when you compare it with North Vancouver. Having spent 13 of my 20 years in squamish, I still think its the best place to ride in BC, and I am currently living in Kamloops, and lived in north vancouver for 2 years before that. Sorca needs to find a way to appeal to the younger crowd, the bulk of which are freeriders, and get them involved in trail maintenence on there favorite shuttles. Show them how to do it properly, and encourage them to get out there on there own after they have learned some skills. I personally have spent many many hours in the bush in squamish both building trails (admittedly illegal trails), but more importantly maintaining existing trails all over town. Kids should be encouraged to safely add to existing trails, like adding a few berms rollers or jumps as long as they are built properly and a route around is provided, instead of wasting there time building jumps in places where they are just going to get plowed, or cause conflict with other trail users.

[mettlehead]

trail maintance aside it is easy to say don't get bunrt out but for people with a full time job, 2 kids and wife, trying to find time to play and an extra few hours each week for bike meetings there is just way to much going on. for a few of our executive between meetings with district staff, developers and other officials plus writting letters ect they were spending in some weeks 10 hours doing these things. some of these meetings caused these guys to miss work there by costing them $$ that they have never been compensated for not that they are looking for that compensation.

things are changing in the woods. 15 years ago mountain biking was in the "closet" and i guess a lot of us thought we could keep having fun forever. now mountain biking has become business. with both the local and provincial gov'ts looking at the tourism potential and yet expecting local clubs to shoulder the burden of providing this experience. the stuff that exists in squamish was never built with tourism in mind. if the gov'ts want to exploit what vollies have built fine but they should be willing to recgonize that and be forthcomming with $$ to assist in furthering what already exists. or at the least maintaing what already exists.

sorca is at the table with motsa and it is an exciting time for the sport in that finally the provincial gov't is going to recgonize and legimitize the trails that have been "illegaly" built. they are talking about some great things that will be motsa policy and driven from the top down. the problem is and it comes up at every meeting where do the $$ come from to make this happen. at every meeting they are told that they can not look to the vollie run organizations to do everything. this ministry is only 3 months old and still getting its feet so time will tell if they are listening.

the issues go far beyond fund raising. for squamish to have a "trail coordinator position" we extimate that it would be at minium a $50,000.00 a year job. this person would coordinate with user groups to correct conflicts, work with developers, the dos and various ministries, organize trail maintance days and find funding for trail construction. based on the work that our 2 exec members did over the last 2 years this position is a full time job if squamish wants to grow and keep its trail network where it is at. $50,000.00 is a lot of pub nights and hot dog sales.

the stuff going on in squamish is way more than getting the kids out to trail maintance. with "team squamish" in existence there is now a chance to tap into 40-50 kids and we do a couple of times a year. there is so much pressure on so many parts of this little town that vollies are not able to keep up with it. we are a town of 16,000 dealing with issues of a city of 100,000 should be dealing with. plus there is growing user conflict on the trails with the dirt bikes. they are exercising their "right to ride" in the valley and it is taking up way to much time and energy for some of us. the list of issues keeps growing and the time spent not enjoying our sport for what it is grows equally.

my involvment in mountain biking and sorca for the past 14 years has been some of the best years of my life. i just think back to how innocent it all was 14 years ago and look at where we are today and worry about where sorca/squamish/mountain biking will be in 5/10/15 years from now if more people do not get involved in their local clubs.

[Robot]

Lots of good points Cliff. We're experiencing similar growing pains out in the Fraser Valley.

Could you drop me a line so we can talk about some of this stuff outside of the forums?

Cory H.
FVMBA Area Rep. // Maple Ridge

E: robotsaredeadly@gmail.com
W: fvmba.com

[Sharon]

the issues go far beyond fund raising. for squamish to have a "trail coordinator position" we extimate that it would be at minium a $50,000.00 a year job. this person would coordinate with user groups to correct conflicts, work with developers, the dos and various ministries, organize trail maintance days and find funding for trail construction. based on the work that our 2 exec members did over the last 2 years this position is a full time job if squamish wants to grow and keep its trail network where it is at. $50,000.00 is a lot of pub nights and hot dog sales.


We feel your pain Cliff.

This is why the NSMBA is actively pursuing more funding through Grants/Corporate Members and personal members so we can fund a trail crew and a paid administrator.

Our thoughts now are that if we don't step up and take charge of the trails to maintain them the way we want to, government may step in and do it their way.

Since we don't want that we are raising money so we can do the job.

How can they say no if we have the money, we have the labour we just want to do the job.

WORCA is doing this. SORCA could easily tap into similar funds.

[Sharon]

This year the NSMBA will be alternating Twoonie races with SORCA and telling people about the SORCA twoonies in the hope that people will participate in both.

Since the Cycling BC insurance covers both clubs this is one way to get more bang for your Cycling BC buck.

We should also be advertising each others Trail Days.

[Rat]

what is the benefit of having all these regional groups?

would it not be more effecient to have a southwestern BC Mountain bike assosiation perhaps then having a single paid employee starts to make a little more sense.

you could still have regional subgroups for local issues.

[Sharon]

what is the benefit of having all these regional groups?

would it not be more effecient to have a southwestern BC Mountain bike assosiation perhaps then having a single paid employee starts to make a little more sense.

you could still have regional subgroups for local issues.

I vote Rat as president and spokes person!

[Rat]

Im just curious more than anything. not getting down on the great work you guys do.

[Sharon]

Im just curious more than anything. not getting down on the great work you guys do.

we've talked about. It comes down to organization, time committment and someone to take the lead.

If fact, we've often thought Cycling BC would be a good organization to do this, but they're more into racing and don't have the time for this. Or IMBA but they have limited resources as well.

[mettlehead]

a regional association could be the way to go but who is willing to step up and organize it? if we talk about the area from pemberton to hope and include the sunshine coast and possibly vancouver island that is a fairly large geographic area. even if we talk about the area of hope to pemberton that is still a large area. if it ment only one meeting a month that could be a long way to travel and a large time commitment.

i believe that with the motsa process that is taking place there could be some of type of regional representation come out of it. still the issues facing worca/sorca/nsmba/fvdra and ....... are to some degree similar and yet very different according to the area. it may just take some time for motsa to get its feet on the ground to take a leadership role as well. to some degree the gov't needs to take some responsibility for what is happening in the woods. 7 years ago they did away with the recreation officers in min of forestry. in those 7 years our sport has exploded in both new trail construction and the numbers of people comming to use those trails. finally at last motsa is taking a long hard look at "legimitizing" our sport in the eyes of the gov't. if this does go ahead there needs to be acompaning $$ to ensure that local bike clubs buy into this newfound gov't intrest. these 2 items i feel go hand in hand because without one you can not have the other.

if there is gov't funding for ice rinks/skate parks/ball fields/beaches/basketball/baseball and the list goes on why not for mountain biking? local bike clubs came into existence because there was a void that needed to be filled.

worca because of singing pass being closed, sorca because of no trails in the area, nsmba because of (i think) threats to close the shore to riding and this list goes on as well. each club has grown into something that none of the original club founders could have envisioned i believe.

over the past 4 years or so sorca has been asked to and been involved in way to many things that no bike club should be involved in. in december this year we had an executive retreat in which we came up with a mission statement. the key part of this statement is "for our members". local and provincial tourism was not part of this mission statement. this retreat and visioning workshop was done to try and regain a focus as to the who, what and why's of sorca. i think that we to a large degree acomplished that.

true cycling b.c. would be the logical place for something like this to start but sharon is correct. they are more concerned with racing than anything else which is to bad as they are the "governing" body for mountain biking in b.c.

the idea has been kicked around a bit about sorca hiring a paid trail person. why is it any club or other volinteer's responsibility to ensure that the local trails are maintained for any purpose other than personal enjoyment? if commercial operators are using something that has been built for the love of the sport or necesity and they are not putting something back into that which they use why should that club or vollie ever go out for free and do trail work.

in our opinion we as a bike club see that commitment based on the dos adopted mountian bike master plan. the paid trail person is a key recomndation of that plan if the dos really wants to see mountain biking move forward. sorca is a bike club first and formost. we are here for our members. to organize trail maintance days, toonie races and such events and to ensure we have some place to ride our bikes as squamish continues to grow. we are not a voice for the growing tourism sector. it is all well and good that motsa and dos want mountain biking to grow just not on the backs of vollies.

[Big Dipper]

It was seven years ago when I came out of the woods and got on board with the NSMBA when governments tried to play the environment card against MTB all the while allowing clear-cut development and golf courses. Since then my trail has gone to shit and I've had the privilage to giving up nights to meetings eating shitty finger sandwhiches while hanging out with Ernie and the frog people.

Since then we've learned that government staff are rather mediocre in getting anything done so we went to the top and got political. This has improved things somewhat. But we need to keep up the pressure.

The issue remains that government's ability to respond can not keep up with the growth of MTB and will continue to play catch up. Given that the trails themselves are not directly in the "view" of those making the decisions, the trails are continually taken for granted.

Now government is getting on board because of tourism potential - ie all the wrong reasons! We have enough cottage industry people on the take, we don't need government and thier cronies trying to leverage it further without recognizing the foundaton upon which all has been based - THE TRAILS.

I'm not expecting much good in government's direct involvement in the trails, especially for places like the Shore which is an outlier to the MTB norm. The best chance there is for the trails and our lifestyle is to self-manage the trails likely in a public-public partnership. However this requires significantly funding support from government and the problem is that where government put money it also wants control which tends to eat up most of the funds within the bureacracy and get sidetracked by egos. This model also requires respect and support from the riders - which is lacking big time! The result is some type of user pay scenario which will be difficult to manage thus reducing it's effectiveness of getting funds where they are needed - the trails.

The other hurdle continues to be Liability - but there are some insiders working to ease the pain hear. Insurance and fear of litigation will continue to be a thorn regardless.

While I still fear for the soul of mountainbiking there is one leverage point that outweighs the tourism angle - OBESITY. The health benefits of mountain biking and the cost saving benfits to the medical system of an active population is huge. There in lies the resources to be tapped to pay for the trail infrastructure.

Dr. Cliff Miller, MTB MD........I like the sounds of that!

[LeeLau]

Going to miss you Dipper. Who else will rant at the kids?

[Monkeybutt]

Interesting dialogue - much better than the norm here imho.

In general, I believe that those parties that benefit from the trails should contribute to maintain them (whether in time or money). There are two real choices here: (1) sell something and kick the proceeds back to the community or (2) seek donations and grants and kick the proceeds back to the community. Some parties are selling stuff and others are seeking true not-for-profit involvement.

Companies are popping up and asking themselves how they can exploit the trails for profit. Existing associations are asking themselves how they can honor the mandate they have with their members and maintain the standards they are used to. No easy answer obviously.

I don't actually think that a solely public-public approach will work. I think that, in the end, it will take corporations working with public associations working with the government to maintain trails and deal with the growing popularity. I again draw reference to the fact that these issues play out in other areas. Look at forestry as an obvious parallel. Pretty hard to keep the government, loggers, natives and environmentalists all happy. Even harder when you consider the permutations of native loggers, government environmentalists etc. In the end they're all paying some price to reap the rewards of the environment (be it money, enjoyment or lifestyle) and they all have to contribute to make it work (even then it's rough).

I believe that the balance on trail preservation will be made when a company and/or the government working together can make a sustainable income from this business, and this is important, including material payments to maintain its infrastructure. That infrastructure includes trail maintenance and many other things I'm sure are oblivious to me. The flip side of this is that most business require volume to do that and volume on trails is the problem here. If there are general tourism revenues to be had, you should pay to reap them whether you are person, corporation or government.

Pay-to-ride parks like Whistler are an elegant solution and one I support about 25 times a year. I guess the theme of this is mini-rant is that someone has to pay.

I sympathize with you folks in the trenches as there is no immediate solution for you. I however would pay to ride the Shore if it contributed directly to the environment that I am enjoying. I pay to ride Whistler and I don't even think twice about the cost because I enjoy it so much. But sir, we are not all as fiscally endowed as you are and we won't pay to use public land! I say tough. If you want to reap the love, pay the dinner bill. I think $5 a ride from CBC down is a no-brainer if the trail is always maintained and evolving. Somewhere around $12 a ride I would start to creap back to Lost Souls for some love though. I would save my $12 but would have to push up for an hour and ride a trail built by a bunch of monkies (just a joke as I actually know them quite well).

With the ever increasing volumes, I worry about the environment of and around the trails and that it will be hurt. Only way to manage this is to make sure there are resources to deal with it. On this note, I can see that if the sport continues to grow we will all eventually be riding pay-for-use trails in sectioned off areas of the environment. Might as well start bucking up now to make the transition smoother.

Caveat is that I know nothing about the legal and liability issues of charging for use of trails. I can only imagine that somebody would have to accept some sort of liability.

Phew ... man that was long winded.:greedy:

[Shakes]

so what's the answer? or er, What's the question?

- Govt. needs to start puting their money where their mouth is.
problem1: liability, we'll see how long it takes to figure this out.
problem2: govt wheels turn SLOoooow.
quazi solution1: organized pressure with a clear message.

- combine the clubs.
an interesting proposition.
without a doubt a provincial 'hub' would be priceless as well as an astounding organizational feat.

- those damn kids.
there are ill-informed jackasses building trails without a clue. a system must be found to round them up and learn em' but good with some building 101. bit off track but still a personal peve


the magic solution.....






ha- psyke - there's no such thing.

get involved - get informed - work & fight to play till you win/die

[Emmens]

to the original poster, after seeing Squamish in the title, I misread your name as "methhead"

-Riley

[Luudwig]

.

...recognizing the foundaton upon which all has been based - THE TRAILS.



We need to keep reminding ourselves of this fact because without the TRAILS we would still only be riding the skinny tire bikes on pavement.
While there is nothing wrong with that type of riding per se I do enjoy the variety and thrill of off-road trails much more.

[whistler110]

I prefer the idea of local groups keeping control of the trails in their area but think combining the administration would be a benefit for all.

What ever happened to the tenure system? Any company making money off the trails should have to be liscenced to use that area or things will get out of control. That liscencing fee could go back to the local trail organization.

How about liscencing the regions, similer to what they do for fishing? If you want to ride the shore you purchase a liscence for the year, the money goes back into the trails and you get a better idea of how many riders are using the trail. This would not have to be a large fee so that everyone would comply. Commercial liscences could be more and would include paying customers. This would be better then a pay-per-ride system that is used at bike parks.

A simple way to push this right now would be to pressure and self police riders into showing a club affiliation if they want to use the trails. " Hey bud, where's your 2006 SORCA sticker?"

[ES-OH-ES]

to the original poster, after seeing Squamish in the title, I misread your name as "methhead"

-Riley

Now thats some funny shit. Put the meth problem in Squamish aside, and get back to the important stuff... Trails. Forget a new governing body, lets start by just trying to get 1 single meeting between the representatives of NSMBA, SORCA, WORCA, PORCA, etc, and have a discussion about the issues, and find out what strides have to be made to start dealing with the issues that all MTB communites are pressured with, I think that towns such as williams lake and Kamloops would like to be involved as well. Of course its all easier said than done...
P.S. Cliff might need a job for may nad june, and trail maintenence around squamish is right up my alley, If I'm not back at Tantalus.

[shirk]

Possibly look to OFSC (Ontario Federation of Snowmobile Clubs) for a frame work / infastructure.

Each region still maintains it's local clubs, with the heads of these club involved at the provincial level on issues.

To legally ride the trails you must buy a trail pass, this is good for the whole trail network. These trails are built on both private and public land. The trail permit covers an insurance for the private land owners.

Several years ago the government realized that it was a huge tourism potential and put money into the system. Many communities and local business in Northern Ontario survive almost entirely on the snowmobile industry.

[bansheeair]

^^^For that matter, contact the BCSF the BC equivalent.

[jace mace]

My fave trail on the Shore is "hidden" and takes work to get into (hike-a-bike etc.) I suggest if it possible with 'new' trails to make people work for 'em (the entrances.) This may be selfish, but it weeds out the wackers a.k.a. poachers.

PS, if CBC Jeremy saw the posse passin' by...ei ei ei, no me gusta, is all they would say.

I'll be comin' back to Squish this summer and hopefully doing the epic Disneyland via Stawamus FSR...is there a trail above Petgal Lk. to the ridge (yet?)

Also, I have heard that if trail work that is being done is permissable, that there are many willing schools that may make a field trip out of this and volunteer to assist Sorca et al. In your area I guess it could be Howe Sound Sec. School or perhaps the North Van. Outdoor School. This is not to pass the buck, but a legendary trail in my area (The Shore), the Badden-Powel, was built by student volunteers albeit UBC students: But I am sure high school students would enjoy an outdoor school type experience.