A word from me, Week 3 Winner of the photo contest

[martin_bissig]

Hi everyone!

My name is Martin, I am from Switzerland and I am winner of week 3 contest. Before posting the images for the competition, I was sure that no professional photographer is allowed.

Before Cam posted the winner image, he contacted me and asked me if I was a pro photographer. I told him that I am not and I also can tell you the following things:

My main income (like 70 to 80%) is through a travel agency business I run here in Switzerland. The rest of my income I make through photography.
And here is what the rules say "If your main source of income comes from photography you aren't eligible". Clear to me that I am not a pro.

Another rule is: "Photos that have appeared in any print publication are not eligible". None of the photos I sent in were printed somewhere.

Being an "amateur" but delivering professional results doesn't mean that I am a professional photographer.

For me, photography is fun, it's a hobby and it also helps me to cover the costs I have through photography.

Hope that helps to clear the controversy. If not, well, then nsmb has to have rules like "never have some photos of yours published before in any media"....

Martin

[wheeler]

Props for having such sweet shots, all of yours were pretty stellar.

[Chump]

Answer me this does an amatuer have a client list like you do? Does an amatuer get a full on week paid for to do an ad shoot for manitou? I am sure there is more as well.

Heck this comp is just flushed right down the toilet in my mind. Give the young guns a chance, I would rather see the money and rewards go to an ACTUAL amatuer that could use the cash and prizes to further advance there career and equipment then someone who is already established.

Stop sandbagging the comp its a disgrace.

Steve

[Uncle Duke]

Props for having such sweet shots, all of yours were pretty stellar.


def nice picts.



Stop sandbagging the comp...




bottom line.

[Neo]

Answer me this does an amatuer have a client list like you do? Does an amatuer get a full on week paid for to do an ad shoot for manitou? I am sure there is more as well.

Heck this comp is just flushed right down the toilet in my mind. Give the young guns a chance, I would rather see the money and rewards go to an ACTUAL amatuer that could use the cash and prizes to further advance there career and equipment then someone who is already established.

Stop sandbagging the comp its a disgrace.

Steve

w3rd.

[bunny]

Who can enter?
This is not a pro contest. If your main source of income comes from photography you aren't eligible. If you've sold the odd shot but something else brings home your bacon you're in. If you aspire to be a pro but you are just getting started then giddy up - this could be your start. Primarily though we're looking for shots from Joe Shooter - a rider who also likes to take pictures of his or her riding crowd. This is a world wide contest - no matter where you live we hope to see your shots in the contest.


picking out one sentence (being your MAIN source of income) out of the complete rules and saying you're eligible is basically finding a loophole. technically allowed but pretty obvioulsy your pics aren't within the spirit of what was intended.. or what most nsmb members view as what was intended. i think if you look at the bold in the rules you might see why people think you've been sandbagging. it's cool that you've given your side without all the bitterness and sarcasm of last weeks winner though.

[DaveM]

It's a tough one. I doubt that NSMB anticipated the massive flood of entries for this contest. I also think that the main staple of members that post on these forums think they are the only ones who regularly read and post pictures on NSMB, and therefore thought they were amongst the top entrants. Take a look at "who's online" one day and you'll see that there's usually more guests than members viewing at any given time. So when a contest comes around, people are coming out of the woodwork to register and enter some pictures.

There's definitely been some "interpretation" of the rules by some of the entrants. Last weeks didn't have a "major magazine, this weeks makes more money at his other business and Bill did not have sexual relations with that woman.

Let's not get our panties in a bunch. The NSMB crew will makes it right once they sort out all the details.

The accusations of NSMB having a contest to get free pics makes me sick. Why don't you just go kick Cam in the junk, it would probably hurt less.

[Dude]

Martin,

You deserve a lot of credit for posting here, to explain your point of view. You clearly are very talented, and have some nice work to show for it.

I think what I and it appears many others feel is that the spirit of this competition has been compromised. The idea in the beginning seemed to me and others that the target was to put a true amateur in the spotlight. If I'm not mistaken, photography is one of those "professions" that very few are able to support themselves on entirely. Most, it seems, have a primary source of income in place that mainly supports the primary passion.

Unfortunately, perception is reality. Technically, I guess you do qualify, but what guys like Chump really want to see are needles in a haystack, the unknown photographer that doesn't already have a hefty list of credentials to draw from. We want to see somebody win who needs the chance to get their 15 minutes in the spotlight, who might not have otherwise gotten their shot.

You've arrived...you don't need this contest.

Once again, nice work. You should be very proud.

[Uncle Duke]

The accusations of NSMB having a contest to get free pics makes me sick. Why don't you just go kick Cam in the junk, it would probably hurt less.


yea thats some low blow...

on the up side I love switzerland, never been there but I really dug the sound of music, and I am impressed w their banking laws.

[trout]

on the up side I love switzerland, never been there but I really dug the sound of music, and I am impressed w their banking laws.


LOL

Congrats on your win Martin, and your very successful travel agency.

[Lady Gravity]

hey props to you martin for facing the music. however...i have to admit that i also feel you are sandbagging. when the contest began i somehow felt that the whole intent was to give an actual "amateur" a chance and i dont feel that describes you. i think the whole onus here is on the entrants to follow the rules - i dont think we can blame the nsmb guys for failing to figure out whether someone is pro or not.


The accusations of NSMB having a contest to get free pics makes me sick. Why don't you just go kick Cam in the junk, it would probably hurt less.

i agree. this contest is hard enough on cam and the gang as it is, dont make it worse.

[.243racer]

Another rule is: "Photos that have appeared in any print publication are not eligible". None of the photos I sent in were printed somewhere.


Well if you look at this submission (http://photos.nsmb.com/showimage.php?i=4551&catid=member&imageuser=27057) by this weeks winner, he also shows the same picture printed in a Swiss outdoors magazine (http://www.bissig.ch/content/album/details.php?image_id=2867&sessionid=e9cbbd64c5211afdccc96eb974456a50) on his site...sweet.

Same goes for this picture (http://photos.nsmb.com/showimage.php?i=4414&catid=member&imageuser=27057) printed in this mag (http://www.bissig.ch/content/album/details.php?image_id=2843&sessionid=e9cbbd64c5211afdccc96eb974456a50).

Martin, you need to think about things before you post. Or else it comes off as plain lying.

btw. nice photo's. the best one of the week won, no suprises here.

[Dantes Inferno]

Whistler wasnt that great on its first season either. See what it is now. With a little refining, this has the makings to be a true Joe Average contest.

[Dantes Inferno]

Im sorry Martin my man, but I just cant accept you are an amatuer.

Quoted from you.

Philosophy

“Pictures say 1’000 words”. This old and often used quotation has in fact proved itself over the years. Whereas bad or unsuitable photos can do more harm than help.

Quality and professionalism are the most important issues for me. I am convinced that I am able to deliver high quality results that entirely meets my customers needs. I am also sure that this attitued is being reflected by my work.

Starting with some basic courses years ago, I quickly found out that photography is more than just taking pictures. It’s the challenge to express my personal imagery (something that only exists in my mind) by mechanical means. As a photographer I have the ability to capture a real life image, and by using my technique, presenting the image in a way that touches others.

In touching others with my images, I've made a connection that mere word could never achieve. On this website you find a selection of photos of which I think they say 1’000 words, or even more.....

Dude, no way.

[Rat]

the guy fits in cams rules, give him a break.


You want an amature contest why not suggest to cam that he digs up a prize for and has an amature catagorey as well as the one his rules currently define.

[counterpoint]

food for thought: These "pros" have to supplement their riding income in different ways - Donahue, Dyer, Porter, Lunn (would have to if not living at dads), Morland, Kinrade, Gullevich worked at Cove last year, and countless others. Would they ever think about entering an amateur contest?

Loopholes in MTB are pretty easy so there's no blame to NSMB. This week's winner is one of best shots I've ever seen as well. It did take my breath away.

[cam@nsmb.com]

Martin,

I'm impressed that you are willing to throw yourself to the wolves.

I for one appreciate the respectful tone you have adopted despite some of the things people have been saying about you - and about the contest.

I hope that this respectfulness rubs off. I'm not sure what it is about the internet that makes people adopt a tone that they would never use with someone in person - particularly someone they haven't met before. The tone is more appropriate for an angry brother - but I doubt that is going to change any time soon.

While I won't endorse the tone or the approach of a small number of the members here I do understand their frustration. They feel that your experience (it seems that you have been selling images to magazines for at least three years and that you had 41 jobs last year) gives you an unfair advantage. Obviously much of your skill as a photographer has been gained with sweat, determination and plain old hard work and you should be applauded for that. Your images are fantastic - Sterling and the rest of us have all recognized that.

When we formulated the rules for this contest there were a lot of things we didn't know. We couldn't predict the caliber of photographer we would attract, nor did we know how many entries we would get per week. In both instances the entries have wildly exceeded our expectations. While we're thrilled to have images like yours on the site and in the contest, we didn't intend for the contest to be aimed at photographers at your level.

We haven't done this before and our clairvoyant skills are weak. Even our 20/20 hindsight lags behind many of our users here ;)

There are obviously some of our members who have strong opinions about this. Some of them have strong opinions about everything :) but there are also some more measured responses from members who feel your entry is against the spirit of the competition. I'm not saying this is a democracy but we do try to listen to the people who visit us every day and to take their opinions and feelings into consideration - as was the case last week with Ian Millar's entry.

As you mentioned your entry wasn't against the letter of rules but since this is the first time we have done this the rules may need to be somewhat fluid - like those of an emerging nation. It also appears that some of your entries wouldn't have been eligible because they have been published previously - although it doesn't seem that your winning entry has seen printed.

We're still in the decision making process. I hope you feel that you are being treated fairly - it's something we strive for here. We also hope that you realize we appreciate your participation in the site - as we appreciate everyone who contributes and makes nsmb a better place to visit.

Thanks for your patience and understanding,
Cam

[Smoke]

While I stand by my earlier frothing rants....

The rules are the rules, and it's not like I never sandbagged anyone before. Martin's done nothing wrong. In fact all he did was take exceptional shots and read the rules. The Swiss are nothing if not law abiding, while Canadians are obsessed with fair play but really couldn't give a bugs fart about rules.

One thing's for sure......this contest has made the boards WAYYYYY more interesting. I was starting to get bored....

Hey, I know I'll never win this contest (although I have some slim hopes for an honourable mention), but I'm going to keep entering my two shots a week. It's fun and I like to show off my shots.

For that matter......

I'm throwing in a t-shirt and a jersey to Scottie for that killer 2nd place shot. If you want it, you got it.....

[Couch_Surfer]

kudos to you martin for responding to all this noise. kudos as well for great photos.

but i'm going to have to side with the sandbaggers here..


Quoted from you.

Quality and professionalism are the most important issues for me. I am convinced that I am able to deliver high quality results that entirely meets my customers needs. I am also sure that this attitued is being reflected by my work.


I think once you start trying to attract customers by delivering results, you've crossed that line from guy who's sold a couple of shots here and there to (struggling?) professional who's working a second job to round out the paycheck.

[Universe]

the guy fits in cams rules, give him a break.


You want an amature contest why not suggest to cam that he digs up a prize for and has an amature catagorey as well as the one his rules currently define.

End thread.

[slang]

the guy fits in cams rules, give him a break.


You want an amature contest why not suggest to cam that he digs up a prize for and has an amature catagorey as well as the one his rules currently define.

I've been watching this for a long time and have been swinging back and forth between opinions, but I think this is the right one.

It comes down to who is actually defined as a "professional"? Photography is a thing that's incredibly hard to make money out of. Some guys do it professionally (ie make majority of their money from it), and some do it as a hobby, but are really good at it, and spend probably more than 50% of their time working at it while only receiving less than 30% of their income from it. Martin very likely falls under the latter.

Basically, Ian Millar, Martin Bissig, all these guys are still ameteurs, but use photography gigs as a way to enjoy and fund photography, and work another job to pay the bills. Even someone of Martin's calibre wouldnt wake up at 5am to shoot something if he didnt have love for what he was doing.

I say leave the competition as it is. The local guys think they dont really have much of a chance, but who cares? This is a really good time for everyone to learn to have their limits pushed, good shots dont come for free. Best riding mountains + best riders in the world has to = something. Personally if one of my shots ends up winning among the amazing winners, I'd be stoked 10X more.

Thanks again to NSMB for putting this on for us.

-David

PS: Cam, I emailed you a while ago and you still havent replied (non competition related)

[Danny K]

Props for stepping up with a well-thought-out response. But what about the submitted pictures that were published?

End Result: may fit the letter of the law, but not the spirit in my opinion.

Thanks to NSMB for all their hard work.

[Testy]

Martin,
Awesome photos, cool website.
You are a pro, no doubt about it.

I like the idea of 2 categories in the contest,
One for people that have been paid for their photos. Like Martin and all the others that shoot the stuff we see in print.
And one for the other folk that have never been paid for their photos.
Like the kids who post up on photos and vids.
My 2 cents

[NooNer]

so is the dead horse beaten enough or what?

[GeoffG]

The contest should be re-opened to anyone that has never made a penny selling photos. This is getting to be retarded.

[Jay T.]

my opinion, agree or hate me i dont care. nsmb has taken the time to do this. Their rules, were fairly simple and there wasnt much detail to them. i think that people have added in details that were not in the original sets of rules. If nsmb chooses to this again, perhaps they will look back upon this experience and improve where the "public" feels it neccessary, perhaps more detailed rules and regulations? the thing is, the rules are set, there is no going back and you guys should just enjoy the pics, b/c the line between amatuer and professional is fine, but what people are getting all worked up over is the size of the fields on either side of the line, amatuer is a very big field ranging drasticly, while prfessional isnt as big. just my two cents, thanks cam, nsmb, and all the supporting companies for putting this constest on, you guys can bitch and complain all you want, but maybe you should turn the whining into constructive critisizm for next years contest ( not to say everyone is bitching, some people make great points).. Martin congrats on the win!

[Jay T.]

ohh and i would just like to ad that in my opinion the only reason martin won was b/c of hard work and determination to get the best result, and it shows!. i have never met the man, never will but that is my opinion

[Ed von Schleck]

Ok so here´s my opinion about that issue.

First of all, this is getting ridiculous. The rules were posted before the event started and nobody complained. In my opinion it´s a little late to do so now. Don´t attack Martin, he has done absolutely nothing wrong. "Everybody whose main income is not photography" is definitely NOT a loophole.

This is the first year of this contest. This has never been done before and it would be impossible to make this contest perfect on the first try. If there is somebody to blame then it´s the guys who put up the contest for not being clear about the rules. But heck no, it would be ridiculous to blame them!

It´s nice to have a discussion and of course controversy makes this whole thing a little more interesting, but accept that his shot was in the judges opinion the best entry and he fits in the rules.

Maybe we all should stop whining around and complaining about everything and everyone and rather discuss how we could make a great contest even better next year.

To start with that, no weekly prizes anymore. That would be my suggestion. People shouldn´t enter this contest to win prizes. It´s about their picture being published and being viewed by many people, and I think that alone is a great prize. Maybe a nice prize for the best picture overall, but nothing more. What do you think of that?

[Ed von Schleck]

Ok so here´s my opinion about that issue.

First of all, this is getting ridiculous. The rules were posted before the event started and nobody complained. In my opinion it´s a little late to do so now. Don´t attack Martin, he has done absolutely nothing wrong. "Everybody whose main income is not photography" is definitely NOT a loophole.

This is the first year of this contest. This has never been done before and it would be impossible to make this contest perfect on the first try. If there is somebody to blame then it´s the guys who put up the contest for not being clear about the rules. But heck no, it would be ridiculous to blame them!

It´s nice to have a discussion and of course controversy makes this whole thing a little more interesting, but accept that his shot was in the judges opinion the best entry and he fits in the rules.

Maybe we all should stop whining around and complaining about everything and everyone and rather discuss how we could make a great contest even better next year.

To start with that, no weekly prizes anymore. That would be my suggestion. People shouldn´t enter this contest to win prizes. It´s about their picture being published and being viewed by many people, and I think that alone is a great prize. Maybe a nice prize for the best picture overall, but nothing more. What do you think of that?

[freerider guy]

food for thought: These "pros" have to supplement their riding income in different ways - Donahue, Dyer, Porter, Lunn (would have to if not living at dads), Morland, Kinrade, Gullevich worked at Cove last year, and countless others. Would they ever think about entering an amateur contest?

Just to let u know Gullevich was still in school last year living with his parents so to say that he needed to 'supplement' his income in another way other than riding would be a stech cause he really didn't need to make an income.

[cshook]

im going to go against the flow here and say that id rather nsmb supports someone who sells pics but doesnt make a living off of it.

As mentioned above tons of pro mtn bikers have to work on the side to support themselves. I'd rather support those guys than nobodies. From what it looks like to me this weeks winner is the equivilent of a shop/small company sponsored rider. They obviously need youre support because they arent making a living off taking pics or riding bikes. That was a good pic (way better than last weeks) and the guy doesnt make a living on selling pics, so i say good job.

Support

Cameron

[Mr Ripper]

I don't know what I am pissed off about more. The fact there have been multiple published images posted by Martin, or the fact that NSMB let it happen. What a JOKE!!

The definition of amatuer should be zero income from photography. You would think someone who has had his own photo's published already has his foot in the door.

This contest is more like Crankworx than the Airaprentice

[eric.lawrenuk]

Stop sandbagging the comp its a disgrace.

Steve

YES! stop. sandbaggin is the most annoying thing ever,. alot of that crap happend at the gathering. someone went in amature, and he was sticking tailwhips. weak, go in something that u shoudl eb in. not something that is an easy win

[Midas]

I cant believe the contraversy that has come two weeks in a row, all for what? Gloves and a bag? maybe a shot at a camera bag, maybe a shot at the grand prize but still there are plenty more chances to enter, I've entered every week of the contest and still have had no results. It just inspired me to go out and shoot more and shoot better each time, post shots look for crits, what ever makes me better. With the situations like this I still am on the fence. Published images are published beucase they are good, Ian miller makes a magazine and happens to shoot, I guess thats an easy way to get your image published, print it in your own magazine. Martin runs a travel agency and happens to shoot, part time on the side. Sure part time is still work I guess it's a small career hes making out of it. This issue leaves me on the fence and I would like to stay there, I would feel the same even if I was sitting in the second place position. On the fence is where im staying with this.

[Duncan]

Don´t attack Martin, he has done absolutely nothing wrong.

Excuse me, the guy submitted pictures to the contest that were published in a print magazine, and then denied it in his posting. I'll assume it was an honest mistake ... while I don't think there is anything wrong with his winning shot, the mounting revelations leave me questioning his class and his character in general. (I know that this is a photo contest, and in the end, it is only the photo that shall be judged, but I can see why people are pissed off). D.

[fergs]

Excuse me, the guy submitted pictures to the contest that were published in a print magazine, and then denied it in his posting. I'll assume it was an honest mistake ... while I don't think there is anything wrong with his winning shot, the mounting revelations leave me questioning his class and his character in general. (I know that this is a photo contest, and in the end, it is only the photo that shall be judged, but I can see why people are pissed off). D.


Wow. You're judging his character based on him submitting photos to a contest for which he didn't have a clear understanding of the rules? HARSH.

[SEKTER13]

Guys, weather you agree with his win or not, hes not violating the rules with his winning shot. Sure I don't really think its all that fair but thats more because I dont really agree with the rules definition of a professional photographer, so what? He still fits the rules, love it or hate it he didnt do anything wrong and deserves this win based on the current rules. To him I say Contrats, you took an amazing photograph. All this whining and complaining is doing nothing but adding more stress to the great people here running NSMB. They will probally refine the rules more for next time. They deserve major props for what they're doing right now, and even though they're getting slagged for their decisions this time around, they will STILL come back next year and hold another great contest. You guys are way too serious sometimes.

[Duncan]

Wow. You're judging his character based on him submitting photos to a contest for which he didn't have a clear understanding of the rules? HARSH.

Fergs ... I don't want to rush to judgement - I WANT to give him the benefit of the doubt - BUT the guy can't even plead ignorance. Maybe you should actually read his post:


Another rule is: "Photos that have appeared in any print publication are not eligible". None of the photos I sent in were printed somewhere.

http://www.bissig.ch/content/album/data/media/170/Der_Weg_zum_besseren_Bikebild_page_45.jpg

http://photos.nsmb.com/showimage.php?i=4414&catid=searchresults&searchid=4035

Do I hold too high a standard for someone who is bestowed the title of "Winner"? D.

[mattdh]

Oopsy. I guess he forgot about that one.

Duncan wins for "Best Photo Contest Researcher"

Mistake or not, it sure is difficult to get away with something in this age of information.

[Lady Gravity]

wow duncan nice job! i guess martin forgot about that one.

[Duncan]

Oopsy. I guess he forgot about that one.

Duncan wins for "Best Photo Contest Researcher"

Mistake or not, it sure is difficult to get away with something in this age of information.


Someone else posted the links earlier (there is another, actually) ...

[JCL]

I very much doubt he does but what if Martin makes a million a year ?

That's around $ 800,000 from the travel agency and $200,000 from photography ?

Still amateur ? It's not his main source of income ?

[synchro]

I very much doubt he does but what if Martin makes a million a year ?

That's around $ 800,000 from the travel agency and $200,000 from photography ?

Still amateur ? It's not his main source of income ?


good call. so why not set an income level to determine the pro's? say a cutoff of $21K per year - that's like working a $10/hr job fulltime. you're not in tha bling, but at least you're doing a job you love.

[Duncan]

good call. so why not set an income level to determine the pro's? say a cutoff of $21K per year - that's like working a $10/hr job fulltime. you're not in tha bling, but at least you're doing a job you love.

Yes ... you would have to make it inflation-indexed, y'know, like a Cost of Living Alowance. If you live in Saskatoon, it would be $16,000 a year. If you live in Mexico, it would be $6000. :D

I think part of the problem is the $5000 prize attracts a lot of attention. Maybe the weekly prize should be an NSMB baseball cap, and the grand prize a NSMB hoodie. Would a pro waste their time trying to win a ballcap? If Cam wants to push the envelope, there should be an open pro competition for big-ticket prizes. Let the big boys duke it out while the rest of us watch in awe from the sidelines. If "Joe Rider" ends up winning fair and square with the proverbial "lucky shot", so be it. D.

[synchro]

i think it's awesome that cam was able to round up such a high level of prizes for a first time contest and that has attracted a higher level of photographer. it sucks for the guys with less skill, but that just means they need to step it up a bit. if winning the contest is really that important to someone, they will put in the effort to get a good shot instead of crying like a bitch or just giving up.

[Neo]

the contest is about the guys with less skill or experience though - not about showing them that they need to step it up. for fuck sakes, its obvious he lied about his mag print photos, so i don't believe anything else he put into his post really. i think he's clearly sandbagging and i have no respect for it. however, don't interpret this as being a diss on cam and nsmb - quite the contrary. i think the contest is a great idea and the photos have been wicked (INCLUDING martin's). but i think sandbaggers or closet-pros should be ashamed of themselves for entering contests that CLEARLY state they're for amateurs. sandbagging is unfair and it discourages those to whom the contest is obviously aimed to attract.

[Mic]

the question is (as already mentioned..) WHERE do you ACTUALLY draw the line between "pro" and "amateur" ????

[biopace]

the question is (as already mentioned..) WHERE do you ACTUALLY draw the line between "pro" and "amateur" ????
So NSMB needs to make the written rules fit more closely with the intended spirit of the rules. Hardly something worth burning flags over.

I, however, like the idea of a contest designed for photogs who have never sold a picture before.

Amateur:
1. A person who engages in an art, science, study, or athletic activity as a pastime rather than as a profession.
2. Sports. An athlete who has never accepted money, or who accepts money under restrictions specified by a regulatory body, for participating in a competition.
3. One lacking the skill of a professional, as in an art.

Professional:
1. Engaging in a given activity as a source of livelihood or as a career: a professional writer.
2. Performed by persons receiving pay: professional football.
3. Having or showing great skill; expert: a professional repair job.
www.dictionary.com

[BRT]

Yup, another great debate!

[miffed]

I think the new rule is the way to go, 5 campaigns is fair, plus income topping would still leave the option open to ppl like the publisher of Modest Bikes, cause he could (not a swipe at him, just an example) offset photo money buy the cost saved by not employing photogrophers. Also the $5k prize is brilliant, it gets the top photos in, which surly is the idea. And about the guests online remember some ppl dont have cookies on their comps so dont log in until they go to post, thats what i do anyway.