THE POLL: Week Three

[Danny K]

Should the Week 3 Winner be disqualified?

[Buzom]

never mind

[Keefer]

I voted no, but after reading that other thread, can I change my response to yes?

Shady business for sure.

[pedalfile]

hoes before pros

[.243racer]

He is a more professional photographer than Ian Miller was.

[Neo]

yes, anyone who is remotely professional should not be considered.

[drunken_duncan]

yes, anyone who is remotely professional should not be considered.

Agreed.

[Rexthespeedster]

Agreed.

Agreed

[freerider guy]

How many pro biking photographers are there? Like honestly; guys that make their living by taking biking pictures. I bet you can name them off on your hands. Like said already, it would seem as if this weekes winner is even more professional than Ian Miller (who makes a living in the industry but not as taking photos).

[.243racer]

i think the results speak for themselves here.

It will be interesting to see what Cam has to say this week.

[03stinkyrida]

i agree, if last weeks winner was disqualified then this weeks should be for sure.

[Teen Idol]

i think the results speak for themselves here.

It will be interesting to see what Cam has to say this week.

he's clearly not a major pro...those are only Highlands, Lowrence, Harookz, and anyone else judging the comp

[kthomas]

definitely, this contest is for AM's

[Jaysin]

I thinks thats just a front. NSMB wants PROFESSIONAL images for basicaly free.

never thought of it that way.....I dont think so though

[S-Dawg]

I thinks thats just a front. NSMB wants PROFESSIONAL images for basicaly free.

i really dont think so, and im suprised someone does have that opinion

[Pedro2005]

Cam, how come you voted 'no'?

Don't mean to bother you but I think we would all like to hear your opinion on the matter...

Pedro

[Toquer]

Who says this is a democracy?

You all seem to act as though you own this contest. Who says it's about ams? really its about whatever the people who run this show want it to be about.

the rules also say something about wannabe pros as well.

[connor]

he's clearly not a major pro...those are only Highlands, Lowrence, Harookz, and anyone else judging the comp

how about Warwick Patterson, and Derek Frankowski.

www.frankowski.ca Derek owns it, his stuff is unreal. he did have 2005 Bike mag Photo of the year and all.

[andyy]

I thinks thats just a front. NSMB wants PROFESSIONAL images for basicaly free.

agreed. This is pretty much the idea behind any photo or design competition.

[thewwkayaker]

Who says this is a democracy?

You all seem to act as though you own this contest. Who says it's about ams? really its about whatever the people who run this show want it to be about.

the rules also say something about wannabe pros as well.

This is the bottom line. NSMB made the competition, the rules were layed out. As long as the winners fit the rules no one can complain (should have complained about the rules before hand I guess).

That said, as I indicated in the last thread - perhaps next year NSMB can have a 2nd category in the competition for those that have never had a picture published at all in anything (overlooking say a picture taken for your company Xmas party flyer or something).

This is somewhat similar to "amature" riders who actually have at least one sponser but are not considered pro. They still can and do compete in amature and sport class races but will stomp the true amature racer.

[cam@nsmb.com]

I couldn't see the results without voting.

And I actually don't think anyone really wants to hear my opinion about this - except maybe you Pedro. It sort of seems like most of you just want to complain. People are even suggesting we're running this contest to steal people's images. This contest doesn't make us any money - in fact it will end up costing us a little in shipping - so it's tough to imagine where our evil motivation is coming from.

I don't get why anyone would visit this site if your opinion of the people who run it is that low.

The attitudes are too negative here for me to get into this. When we reversed our decision about Ian Millar's image last week nobody sent us any props. When it's time to bitch everyone gets on the soapbox but who hits the keys when we do something you agree with?

[Danny K]

I couldn't see the results without voting.

And I actually don't think anyone really wants to hear my opinion about this - except maybe you Pedro. It sort of seems like most of you just want to complain. People are even suggesting we're running this contest to steal people's images. This contest doesn't make us any money - in fact it will end up costing us a little in shipping - so it's tough to imagine where our evil motivation is coming from.

I don't get why anyone would visit this site if your opinion of the people who run it is that low.

The attitudes are too negative here for me to get into this. When we reversed our decision about Ian Millar's image last week nobody sent us any props. When it's time to bitch everyone gets on the soapbox but who hits the keys when we do something you agree with?

Humor us.

[M@M]

I couldn't see the results without voting.

And I actually don't think anyone really wants to hear my opinion about this - except maybe you Pedro. It sort of seems like most of you just want to complain. People are even suggesting we're running this contest to steal people's images. This contest doesn't make us any money - in fact it will end up costing us a little in shipping - so it's tough to imagine where our evil motivation is coming from.

I don't get why anyone would visit this site if your opinion of the people who run it is that low.

The attitudes are too negative here for me to get into this. When we reversed our decision about Ian Millar's image last week nobody sent us any props. When it's time to bitch everyone gets on the soapbox but who hits the keys when we do something you agree with?
good point. I, personally, never got into the whole issue last time, but when I saw this come up again, I thought it might be worth a read.
I just think that the lines between pro and am are just too fuzzy in this instance, and it is making it impossible to judge. When you exclude one image, and not another, you piss off the whole other half of the population. Sorta a "Damned if you do, damned if you dont" thing. I think that maybe this one should just slide, becuase its gonna make too much of a cafuffle(sp) but...shit...I cant think of a fair way to judge pro and am. Well, how useless of me.

[onelineatatime]

from another thread
There're a lot of photographers that are well talented (just watch the threads here), but haven't/don't sell their work. That would be the definition of amateur.

I think this is it. If you've sold a photograph, that makes you a pro. Would I personally pay money for an image that wasn't professional?...No.
I understand the intent was to not disqualify the guy who happened to have a good day shooting one time and happened to sell an image or two. Thing is, thats when he stops being an amateur. Really very tough to draw a line in the sand there, example I thought of is the NCAA attempting to keep college athletes amateur- entire governing body to do the job...(all we have is google...)

I still really dig the intent of the contest and have enjoyed looking at everyones pics. I have faith that the powers that be here will make the correct decisions and in the end we will all carry some stoke with us from this to become better photographers and riders.

[Action Hero]

Humor us.

Show the man some more respect.

This is being put on to showcase up and comers, it as simple as that. I've never heard of the photographer before, many europians have never heard of Ian Miller. Furthermore, when someone like Sterling gives his time to help run a photo comp there should be NO bitching. This is a big break for 2nd, 3rd and runner up at least.

I stand an applaud for anyone who has anything to do with this contest.

[Jamie_k]

I couldn't see the results without voting.

Cant you click "view poll results"? Anyway, Im not sure what to think. On one hand its not really a public decision and we should be thankful for Nsmb putting this on for us. On the other, it does seem to be contridictory to the rules.

Jamie

[schoenrock]

i havent been following the contest besides the odd thread i read on the boards hear and there so maybe i'm misunderstanding something here.....correct me if i'm wrong but isnt the contest for amateurs and didnt a pro just win it?

[switch]

Show the man some more respect.

This is being put on to showcase up and comers, it as simple as that. I've never heard of the photographer before, many europians have never heard of Ian Miller. Furthermore, when someone like Sterling gives his time to help run a photo comp there should be little to no bitching, this is a big break for 2nd, 3rd and runner up at least.

I stand an applaud for anyone who has anything to do with this contest.Evan, you've nailed it. 'Nuff said.

[ChunkyMonkey]

And I actually don't think anyone really wants to hear my opinion about this - except maybe you Pedro.
Is this sarcasm? I hope so, because just about everyone is asking for for your opinion - some explicitly, some not. How many people have posted "I don't think this is what Cam had in mind", or "I wonder what Cam is going to do about this one." I'm sure there are pleny of 'lurkers' from around the world that are wondering the same things.

Look at the numerous threads on this subject. EVERYONE wants to know your opinion and what NSMB plans to do for next week.

[Straw]

Wow...I go away from the board for a week, and I come back and everyone's STILL complaining about the photo contest.

Maybe I'll go away for another week.

[switch]

Maybe I'll go away for another week.Do you think anything will change?

[mattj]

Cam,

I want to publicly give you and the team props for the difficult decision of bumping Ian's shot last week. Also major props to Ian for being so cool with the decision.

I guess people take the site's and the contest's best parts for granted. It's always that way. Everyone will comment on negative things, but very few people take time to commend someone or something. I work in the customer service industry, and I'm damn good at what I do. But guess if I have more commendations or complaints on my record. Of course it's the complaints. I try hard to help every customer, but sometimes because of policy, personal incompatibilities, or just plain misunderstandings, I cannot resolve the customer's issue. Guess what happens? They call in and complain about that idiot Matt that sucks at his job because he didn't do such and such. 35 times per day I will resolve a customer's situation. RESOLVE. They have a problem before they call, the problem is GONE after we hang up. In 3 years of doing this I had 3 people call my boss to commend me. What can you do right?

So anyways, enough about me, rest assured we ALL support last week's decision, and we're all giving you props, just silently...

That's about all I have to say right now.... Good luck with this week's decision. We'll give you props no matter which way you choose to run the show and we'll continue to enjoy the images in upcoming weeks.


-m

[HIBuLlitT]

I don't think anyone should be too mad on this one.
This is the first of it's kind for NSMB and there are bound
to be mistakes and the decisions are being made based
on the information at hand. I doubt seriously that
anything nefarious is going on by NSMB staff. They have
been pretty fair and I doubt the one banner ad they
post is making them enough money to live by, and
the images obtained I don't think will be finding their
way onto MBA cover anytime soon.

I agree that ametuer is defined as:

"one who engages in a pursuit, study, science, or sport as a
pastime rather than as a profession"

AND

"one lacking in experience and competence in an art or science"

That is a direct translation, but Merriam (dictionaries) also states:

"AMATEUR often applies to one practicing an art without mastery
of its essentials <a painting obviously done by an amateur>; in
sports it may also suggest not so much lack of skill but avoidance
of direct remuneration <remained an amateur despite lucrative offers"

So even though the direct translation of the word doesn't say
that pay is involved, it is inferred.

OK

Professional:

1 a : of, relating to, or characteristic of a profession b : engaged
in one of the learned professions c (1) : characterized by or
conforming to the technical or ethical standards of a profession
(2) : exhibiting a courteous, conscientious, and generally businesslike
manner in the workplace
2 a : participating for gain or livelihood in an activity or field of
endeavor often engaged in by amateurs <a professional golfer>
b : having a particular profession as a permanent career <a
professional soldier> c : engaged in by persons receiving financial
return <professional football>
3 : following a line of conduct as though it were a profession
<a professional patriot>

THIS clearly states that a "pro" gets paid for "gain or livelihood".

For the above reasons I felt obliged to vote "yes" he should be disqualified.
NOT because the other guy was DQ'd, but because by definition if you do
anything for pay you are a professional.

Cam, I think if you decide to do this in the future, you need to have a lawyer
to look over and rewrite your rules. This of course will make your rules
intelligible by any mere mortal, but this confussion will keep the masses out
of your hair. I know it feels like no one (yes it's two words people) ever
passes out the kudos to you guys, but I think if you did a search, you'd
find quite a few people that thank NSMB for being, and the service you
provide. AND you haven't spammed me yet (ten points):couple:

[cam@nsmb.com]

Is this sarcasm? I hope so, because just about everyone is asking for for your opinion - some explicitly, some not. How many people have posted "I don't think this is what Cam had in mind", or "I wonder what Cam is going to do about this one." I'm sure there are plenty of 'lurkers' from around the world that are wondering the same things.

I wasn't being sarcastic at all. My point was that there are certain people here who really seem to enjoy this. In their eyes we're the man and we're trying to screw the people. Those same people have already made up their minds about why we are holding this contest. We clearly have ulterior motives and according to these members we have deliberately made the contest 'unfair' to further our own interests.

Because of that I'm not that interested in giving my opinion here - at least not right now. Besides that I have work to do - I'm devising my strategy for world domination. ;)

Apologies to the majority of you who haven't jumped to conclusions about the evil empire of nsmb.com.

[white ri0t]

lol, I bet cam just dreads tuesdays as of late.

P.S. Thanks for the beer!

[connor]

I wasn't being sarcastic at all. My point was that there are certain people here who really seem to enjoy this. In their eyes we're the man and we're trying to screw the people. Those same people have already made up their minds about why we are holding this contest. We clearly have ulterior motives and according to these members we have deliberately made the contest 'unfair' to further our own interests.

Because of that I'm not that interested in giving my opinion here - at least not right now. Besides that I have work to do - I'm devising my strategy for world domination. ;)

Apologies to the majority of you who haven't jumped to conclusions about the evil empire of nsmb.com.

I think it's cause they're all done with complaining about the outdoor show and needed to move onto something new. Maybe it's because we're just waiting for you to announce the 2006 NSMB.COM Bicycle Show you are going to organize..8)

[ratherberiding]

no pros allowed

[switch]

When you need Ned, and his "ride more, bitch less", he's not around. :(

[wheeler]

I voted no jsut because he won fair and square. He submitted a pic, it got picked as teh best, he wins the week. Is that not how it works?

Sounds easy to me.
If i was in the contest and got spanked by a beauty pic it would make me try harder and learn more.

[synchro]

under the rules as laid out from the start, martin's image is eligible. if this shot had been published in a magazine i think it would still be good to go. same as for ian millar's from week two. it all depends on how you interpret the rules, and as a few other people have said, that's where the confusion sets in.

take a step back, look at the other side of the coin (everybody, no matter which side of the debate you sit on) and try and appreciate the contrary view. there is room for the decision to go either way.

personally, i thought millar's pic was a bit of a stretch to be allowed, but when looking at it from the other side of the fence i could see it as being okay. this week is even less controversial than last week. i think some people are still looking for a fight because they haven't gotten over last week.

if you think this contest is so bad and wrong, go start your own with your own rules and run it the way you want.

[lucas j]

Man some of you people sure do bitch a lot. Especially for being someone who gets to put their leg over a $5K+ machine every day and hit Fromme or Seymour or Cypress. I have to deal with flat land covered in snow at -20 degrees right now. I went out and pedaled last night for a half hour just to get my legs moving, and I was wearing my 4 year old NSMB.com sweatshirt that doesn't even fit me right. I wear it every time I do a night ride.

Why? Largely because I want to support a site that's doing what I consider great fucking things for the sport. Here we have a website that's not run by some shitty magazine conglomerate and doesn't talk about how freeride bikes perform when they're riding them on shitty socal single track. This is a site run by riders, for riders, with little to no financial gain (I know that for sure, I work for an enthusiast site in one of my other hobbies). These guys pull together a bunch of sponsors to run a contest to give exposure to photogs who don't have it yet, and all of you suckers with a point and shoot are complaining? Please.

D-bags.

[enduramil]

When you need Ned, and his "ride more, bitch less", he's not around. :(
Allow me.

Ride More, Bitch Less.

[Uncle Duke]

...but who hits the keys when we do something you agree with?


we wouldnt be here if this wasnt such a wicked site..

any thoughts that NSMB is trying to get picts for free is really insulting ..its a good competition and hopefully it gets all dialed and is back next yr..(w maybe a pro and am class).

[lucas j]

Let me clarify what I said above:

Though I think complaining is totally lame, I think sandbagging the comp when it's clearly a staged shot that just so happened to not get published is probably way lamer. I understand the point, but complain about the photog taking advantage of the grey area, don't say Cam is trying to get some free shots to make money.

[LeeLau]

we wouldnt be here if this wasnt such a wicked site..

any thoughts that NSMB is trying to get picts for free is really insulting ..its a good competition and hopefully it gets all dialed and is back next yr..(w maybe a pro and am class).

I'm surprised anyone would think this was a grand scheme dreamed up by Cam or NSMB to get free pics. I bet he's just as surprised as anyone at the success of the photo comp. I know this is just speculation but my experience from being on this board for a while is that its not the way these guys operate.

.243racer - Im really surprised by you. I thought you were one of the more "sober second thought" people on this board - I guess I was wrong.

props to Duke for putting it so clearly.

Good work Cam and good work NSMB. Congrats on the success of the photo comp

[Uncle Duke]

props to Duke for putting it so clearly.




*scratches head,waves rake at the sky*

just calling it like I see it...

[synchro]

shit, these threads are like an ugly girl with big tits. you don't wanna look but you just can't help yourself.

[DaveM]

shit, these threads are like an ugly girl with big tits. you don't wanna look but you just can't help yourself.

Which is exactly why whiskey was invented.

[.243racer]

.243racer - Im really surprised by you. I thought you were one of the more "sober second thought" people on this board - I guess I was wrong.


I have had some things clarified by Cam. If could stop being quoted so much, I could delete my original message, but its pointless when there are 5 copies of your original post for everyone to see. But yes I agree, I WILL use more discretion next time.

[Smoke]

Hey, don't get so bent out of shape about people discussing the comp. The boards have been so lame lately (Like I give a shit about Danny Brody's arms. Give it a rest already....). This means that all these people care about their site. The photo contest is the best thing to happen on here since......forever.

I should clarify my statement about:
If you want pro images for your calendar, then step up and pay for them like everyone else. You may be insulted by the insinuation, but it's how it looks.
My meaning was that these statements are given the appearance of fact by the results of the contest, not nec. that's what they were trying to do. Any real professional wouldn't bother as they are trying to sell their shots for things like rent and food, not win prizes. I know that Cam and co. got a bit bent about that part of the rant, so while I'm not apologizing....I am qualifying the statement. As Cam so succinctly put it..."there is no f*ck!@g calendar!"

[enduramil]

Bitch less, Ride more.

[couch@nsmb.com]

I think one of the problems that people have is that they don't understand NSMB, the volunteers or Cam. Cam started this site with his own money to suport a community and give it a place to meet on a regular basis. Cam is a good guy. Cam scratches a living for his wife and 2 kids from this site but even before that he looks at the measley bottom line to try and figure out how much money can be donated to causes such as NSMBA and S&R. Cam believes in leaving this world as a better place than it was when he first arrived.

Everyone that "works" here is a volunteer. We have common beliefs that we share with Cam. This contest was put together because we thought it would be cool...that's it.

I know for a fact that Cam is getting an ulcer over this which is completely unfair. The next photo contest will be different - better, improved. For now lets just sit back and look at the pretty pictures. Don't stop submitting your photos, go out and take more, learn from the photos that are in the top 4 and try and shoot better ones. Photos are a time capsule and we are forturnate to live in an amazing time. Go and document it for yourself but don't forget to share.

Couch

[nouseforaname]

Wow, its all being doen so an NSMB calendar can exist? Thats a lot of work just for a calendar. I love conspracy theories.

New conspiracy about the photo contest : Its so that Cam and Crew don't have to wade through tons of Wannabees when they run the NSMB team comp. They will already have your name address and riding skill. All kept on library cards, hidden in a mineshaft in the desert. And they will already OWN you, so you'll be on the NSMB team whether you want to be or not......

[Sharon]

Those who can do.

Those who can't bitch.

[trout]

Those who can do.

Those who can't bitch.

How's your snowboarding coming along?

[Heatmizer]

I thought I'd stay out of this whole thing this week, but unfortunately I decided to read this thread and dammit so many people seem to have no respect for the the people that make this site work.

It's the 1st time they've ever done this type of competition. they made a set of rules and they're doing the right thing by not changing them half way thru the contest. It's a learning experience for them right now, and from all the fucking negativity on this board right now, I don't see why the hell they'd ever want to do another.

I'm totally pissed off about Couch's remark "I know for a fact that Cam is getting an ulcer over this which is completely unfair." Not that fect that he posted it or anything to do with Couch, just the fact that Cam and everyone else @ NSMB is putting in a lot of their own time trying to keep us entertained and help out budding photographers, and has gotten industry companies to step up and support this with prizes, has gotten professional photograhers to donate their time to provide quality feedback on the entries and make the tough and thankless decision of who wins - and all they're getting is shit on by the majority of the board members. There shouldn't be any stress for any of the admins from running this contest, and it sickens me that the contest they created is negatively impacting their lives because some people can do nothing but whine and bitch. I think some people here would complain about the contest even if their own bloody photo won !!

Here's a two sided question for everyone - what has NSMB done for you in the last year? Most likely - given you info on how to fix your bike, what parts to buy, find people to ride with and new places to ride, info on special events. Worked with the NSMBa to get the word out for council meetings, trail days and other pro-active mtb events.

What have most of us done for NSMB? Besides buying a brocard, which is more for ourselves to get the discounts than to support this site, likely not a fucking thing. I'm one of those people.

Cam and everyone else, you do a hell of a great job giving local and international riders a place to get news and info, talk and unfortunately complain, and you get nothing in return. I'd like to say thank you everyone of you for working hard to try and keep us happy, and tell you that I appreciate the hard work that you put into this site.

I think the whole NSMB crew should take a day off and just go ride - that's an order for Cam as a matter of fact! :D

[funkendrenchman]

It's the 1st time they've ever done this type of competition. they made a set of rules and they're doing the right thing by not changing them half way thru the contest.
I don't expect them to change the rules, just follow the ones they created. The rule was that the photos should be shot by an amateur photographer. The photographer that won this week was, without a doubt, professional. I don't get why people aren't seeing this. It's totally unfair to all those real amateurs to have to compete against the top guys.

Would you want Cedric Gracia, Steve Peat, and Brian Lopes entering a 4X against you in your beginner class. Not sure it would be much fun railing the first berm as Lopes crosses the finish line.

Also, if you bump a photo for that reason one week, you have set a precedent, thus you will be expected to do the same if the situation rises again.

[cam@nsmb.com]

I don't expect them to change the rules, just follow the ones they created. The rule was that the photos should be shot by an amateur photographer. The photographer that won this week was, without a doubt, professional. I don't get why people aren't seeing this. It's totally unfair to all those real amateurs to have to compete against the top guys.

Did you read the rules? I don't think you did actually because I don't recall writing "photos should be shot by an amateur photographer."

Here's the link (http://nsmb.com/shore_news/moneyshot_01_06.php).

Maybe you can give me a hand and point me to where I wrote that.
Thanks

[funkendrenchman]

Did you read the rules? I don't think you did actually because I don't recall writing "photos should be shot by an amateur photographer."

Here's the link (http://nsmb.com/shore_news/moneyshot_01_06.php).

Maybe you can give me a hand and point me to where I wrote that.
Thanks
"Who can enter?
This is not a pro contest. If your main source of income comes from photography you aren't eligible. If you've sold the odd shot but something else brings home your bacon you're in. If you aspire to be a pro but you are just getting started then giddy up - this could be your start. Primarily though we're looking for shots from Joe Shooter - a rider who also likes to take pictures of his or her riding crowd. This is a world wide contest - no matter where you live we hope to see your shots in the contest."

I believe that says pros are not eligible. Which means the photos that ARE ELIGIBLE must be shot by a non-professional photographer, which is what an amateur is.

Here is a list of clients he has worked for:http://www.bissig.ch/content/photo/clients.php#
I am sorry, but that is going beyond the "[selling] the odd shot."

He has 90 photos in his gallery listed as client photos. http://www.bissig.ch/content/album/

I am not going to argue this anymore. The poll count speaks for itself.

[Danny K]

Show the man some more respect.

This is being put on to showcase up and comers, it as simple as that. I've never heard of the photographer before, many europians have never heard of Ian Miller. Furthermore, when someone like Sterling gives his time to help run a photo comp there should be NO bitching. This is a big break for 2nd, 3rd and runner up at least.

I stand an applaud for anyone who has anything to do with this contest.

Word.

No disrespect meant... I really wanna know what Cam has to say on this.

[cam@nsmb.com]

Word.

No disrespect meant... I really wanna know what Cam has to say on this.

What I have to say is here (http://bb.nsmb.com/showthread.php?t=73695).

[cam@nsmb.com]

If your main source of income comes from photography you aren't eligible.

I have made the appropriate text bold for you.

Since 'pro' is a nebulous term we decided to use the criteria above to decide whether someone would be eligible or not. The poll won't be a big factor in our decision making.

It also seems you haven't seen my post here. (http://bb.nsmb.com/showthread.php?t=73695) This explains where we currently stand on this.

[Uncle Duke]

How's your snowboarding coming along?


hehe hehehehhehe ..

[slang]

OK, I never thought I'd say this but you guys need to stop whining and start shooting.

It's clear this comp isnt for the professionals that make their PURE LIVING off photography, but it's also kinda obvious that this wasnt meant for ameteurs that are OK but not amazing.

Obviously all the shots that get chosen are gonna be shot by guys in the grey area, and the shots themselves are gonna be grey. THEY ARE AMAZING SHOTS, and the bottom line is: people want amazing shots and give them publicity. Who really expects some AM to pop out of nowhere with some amazing magazine or above-magazine quality shot? If that happens, that's sweet. But it's not gonna happen every week for 4 months.

Rules are, if you are of pro quality, but you dont make majority of your cash from photography, then you're elligable. Maybe NSMB didnt expect the contest to turn out like this, but this is the way it is now, and I think everyone's being critical in a good way, but there's far too much criticisizing and not enough critiquing.