Week 3 winner

[FIDUN]

Nice shot, congrats to the winner. Maybe check out his site...

http://www.bissig.ch/

didnt know ams could shoot this well and not be professional...

Also im pretty sure this guy has sold his fair share of stuff. Bike mag, redbull he has pretty major contacts.

But all and all he probley doesnt make all his $$$$ from photography.

[NooNer]

:lol: let the controversy start again.

[FIDUN]

ahaha nono i dont wanna start anything im just shocked at how sick this guys work is, its so dope take a look around at his ski and snowboard stuff some of the best stuff ive ever seen

[Jerry-Rig]

Martin Bissig - Freelance Photographer

I wander what his main source of income is ?

[Emmens]

Martin Bissig - Freelance Photographer

I wander what his main source of income is ?

Freelancing. The Photographer part is second, because it's his secondary source. Duuh.

-Mark

[Jerry-Rig]

Freelancing. The Photographer part is second, because it's his secondary source. Duuh.

-Mark

but if he's lancing for free then Photography would be his main source....

[Emmens]

but if he's lancing for free then Photography would be his main source....


Nonono, FreeLancing is like FreeRiding, except in the jousting world.

-Mark

[Duncan]

Nice picture ... everyone quit the whining let the guy have his backpack. I'm sure his clients (among them Norco, Red Bull, DT Swiss, Manitou, Mountain Bike Magazine, Ride Magazine, Mountain Biking UK, Mountain Bike World, 02Bikers, Bike Board, BIKEmag) are happy that this Average Joe has had a chance to strut his stuff. (Notice Modest Bike isn't on the client list, so shut up all you complainers). D.

[synchro]

Nice picture ... everyone quit the whining let the guy have his backpack. I'm sure his clients (among them Norco, Red Bull, DT Swiss, Manitou, Mountain Bike Magazine, Ride Magazine, Mountain Biking UK, Mountain Bike World, 02Bikers, Bike Board, BIKEmag) are happy that this Average Joe has had a chance to strut his stuff. (Notice Modest Bike isn't on the client list, so shut up all you complainers). D.

nice work D.

http://home.indy.rr.com/mcurley/mattemotes/sarcasm.jpg

[Smoke]

Ummmmm.......I'm on the verge of another massive bash post. Anyone have any objections if I let 'er fly?

My only hesitation in that I just trashed the outdoor show and I don't want to seem overly negative this month (must be the winter blahs).

[trout]

Call em like ya see em.

Are the entrants even reading the rules?

[apeshape]

There needs to be one merged thread for all of these weekly photo discussions. I'm getting click-lash whipping back and forth from the other thread in Photos&Vids.

[DaveM]

Ummmmm.......I'm on the verge of another massive bash post. Anyone have any objections if I let 'er fly?

My only hesitation in that I just trashed the outdoor show and I don't want to seem overly negative this month (must be the winter blahs).

Go ahead Smoke, I just sat down for lunch. This should be good.

[brentomatic]

Ummmmm.......I'm on the verge of another massive bash post. Anyone have any objections if I let 'er fly?

My only hesitation in that I just trashed the outdoor show and I don't want to seem overly negative this month (must be the winter blahs).

Oh no...


:eek:

[BrianPark]

Call em like ya see em.

Are the entrants even reading the rules?
Judging from the 3292393290329 bmx photos, and the 398030923903 reposts, no.

PS. Smoke, lets hear it.

[Duncan]

Ummmmm.......I'm on the verge of another massive bash post. Anyone have any objections if I let 'er fly?

My only hesitation in that I just trashed the outdoor show and I don't want to seem overly negative this month (must be the winter blahs).

Yeah, but don't bite off more than you can chew:

http://www.bissig.ch/content/album/data/media/41/camel_eats_pyramide.jpg

[.243racer]

I have no problem, with this weeks winner. Hey, at least it wasn't published, that was the main bone of contention last week. But its an awsome image and totaly deserving of the win. bicker all you want about professional/nonprofessional.

side note copied from another thread:

Week two was bad enough with all the BS and now this. I think instead of leaving the adherance of the contest rules up to the entrants, the judges should save what little integrity the contest has and enforce the rules themselves. It seems as though the entrants aren't even reading the rules.

EXACTLY. This contest has turned into a "submit some nice pictures win a free bike" contest. Its almost like one of those contests where you submit your email and enter to win a home stereo(something along those lines anyways). It is evident people are not picking and choosing what images they submit. This is evident in the massive batch submissions... people putting in 20 photos a week, and then submitting the same photos the week after.

Maybe for next year, there should be a limit on how many images you could submit a week(three?). This would cut down on the batch transfers, and actually get people to THINK about WHY they are submitting images. Rider's names should also be mandatory, as well as location etc. etc. There should also be an written statement with each photograph, explaining WHY they submitted this image, the story behind it, and any other relevant information to support their submission. This would cut down on the "well I might as well submit, because I have the CHANCE of winning a bike/backpack/swag...etc." submissions.

Just my 2 cents.

-Jordan

[thewwkayaker]

Maybe next year they should add a pure amature photo contest (never had a photo used in any major or minor publication).

Perhaps the reason people get upset is that the winners are all people who do shoot photos to supliment their income, thus have lots of experience, talent, and equipment. Joe Blow doesn't have much of a chance. Kinda like in races there is Pro, Elite, and Sport classes - perhaps future competitions need the same setup?

[trout]

Brian Park and 243racer are agreeing with me. Does this mean I'm wrong?

[Smoke]

OK then, here goes.....

HE'S A PROFESSIONAL!!

Looking at his client list for 2005, I'd say he makes a shitload of money with the travel agency because that's a pretty extensive list. A quick look at his 2005 clients page (http://www.bissig.ch/content/album/categories.php?cat_id=167&sessionid=e6d3c781db4ff77930667d58ea2b84f0) gives you the gist of it. That's 5 cover shots, 8 feature stories, and two product catalogues. At least 5 grand there in fees, if not 10. But it's just a hobby......

Look boys, I posted the link to his site last week as a heads up so you could avoid the controversy (then again, maybe controversy is what you want. Worked for Eminem). Give him 2nd through 5th spot. It's not worth anything at the end of the day but it would have covered your ass, and Martin gets a little extra exposure.. All of his shots were the best of the week. No kidding.

HE'S A PROFESSIONAL!!

He gets contracted to shoot images for:

Move, MTB-Magazine

Gesundheit Sprechstunde

Bilanz

ex-press, Agency

Motiv, Agency

picture-pool.com, Agency

Tamara Müller, Pro-Skier

Thomas Hochstrasser, MTB-Pro

Wedding René and Helen

Essential-Ingredients, Band

Horizon, Band

Credit Suisse, Bank

Norco Bicycles, Canada

BICI-Radsportferien

Zug Tourismus

DT-Swiss

Red Bull

.......among others.

If you want pro images for your calendar, then step up and pay for them like everyone else. You may be insulted by the insinuation, but it's how it looks. I thought this contest was for your loyal members, but you're not treating them with much respect. I see killer shots all the time in the Photos forum, but they're not at a "pro" level so they're not even getting a second look. You can say that it's a bunch of whining, but considering that there's a lot of young members on the boards, they haven't really learned how to express themselves in another way yet. The message I see is clear, they're pissed off and feel cheated. I was looking forward to seeing creativity and innovation from groms with cheap equipment, not staged shots for catalogues shot on multi thousand dollar Nikons.

I notice that there's been a lot of pats on the back about how much better NSMB is than some other similar sites, but I've seen that attitude before. As they say, pride goeth before the fall. I guess that's why I'm ticked off. This contest should be about the most positive thing that nsmb has done yet, but it's bogged down in shortsighted planning and ill considered decisions.

[Pedro2005]

Here is another problem that I have with a seasoned vs. amateur photographer:

When the contest is announced the amateur photographer goes out and tries to take many shots and sees which one works and submits the best ones...

When the contest is announced, the seasoned (not necesserily pro) spends a couple of hours browsing his computer trying to find the best unpublished shot taken in the last five years...

This weeks winner have clearly simply browsed through his 1000s of images and picked the best unpublished one. I am not even sure why but I have a problem with that...

Pedro

[Sandman]

Maybe for next year, there should be a limit on how many images you could submit a week(three?). This would cut down on the batch transfers, and actually get people to THINK about WHY they are submitting images. Rider's names should also be mandatory, as well as location etc. etc. There should also be an written statement with each photograph, explaining WHY they submitted this image, the story behind it, and any other relevant information to support their submission. This would cut down on the "well I might as well submit, because I have the CHANCE of winning a bike/backpack/swag...etc." submissions.

Just my 2 cents.

-Jordan


EXACTLY. This is what bugs me the most, they don't have to pick their best one or think about it. They just submit everything and let the judges tell them what their best one is. They don't actually have to know that much about what makes a good picture.

[Smoke]

Here is another problem that I have with a seasoned vs. amateur photographer:

When the contest is announced the amateur photographer goes out and tries to take many shots and sees which one works and submits the best ones...

When the contest is announced, the seasoned (not necesserily pro) spends a couple of hours browsing his computer trying to find the best unpublished shot taken in the last five years...

This weeks winner have clearly simply browsed through his 1000s of images and picked the best unpublished one. I am not even sure why but I have a problem with that...

Pedro


I was saving that point for a rebuttal, but your problem with that is this:

Martin's shots ( or any pros) are good enough to win EVERY WEEK. What happens with the final? If it'sthe same format as the rest of the contest, all he will have to do is wait until the other 11 winners post their shots, and then he can simply pick one that kills all of theirs.

Just give him the bike now and it'll be over with.

Hey you know what this reminds me of?

Team Canada playing women's hockey.

[Duncan]

Martin's shots ( or any pros) are good enough to win EVERY WEEK. What happens with the final? If it'sthe same format as the rest of the contest, all he will have to do is wait until the other 11 winners post their shots, and then he can simply pick one that kills all of theirs.


Uhhh maybe the "stars align" a lot for him, maybe he "just got lucky" - lots of times. I have nothing against Martin - he is more talented than any of us will ever be - but I don't think this is a case of "Joe Rider" "captur[ing] some rad moments", which was the spirit of the contest. Maybe he will have undergo a tax assesment to show that photography is not his main source of income :rolleyes: . D.

[.243racer]

here's another example:

Would you call Chris Donahue a professional rider?

From what I know, his main source of income is not from bikes. Would that make it OK for him to enter the amateur bracket at the Gathering?

[trout]

Maybe he will have undergo a tax assesment to show that photography is not his main source of income :rolleyes: . D.

I know you're joking but it would be interesting to hear his point of view, after he reads the rules of course.

[brentomatic]

This thread is going to get shut-down and I hope that it does.

[trout]

This thread is going to get shut-down and I hope that it does.

C'mon, this is one of the more benign threads going, would you rather read tips in what hair gel to use?

[brentomatic]

C'mon, this is one of the more benign threads going, would you rather read tips in what hair gel to use?


Yes......

[Smoke]

This thread is going to get shut-down and I hope that it does.

Why? It hasn't even gotten personal yet.

[Dude]

This is too funny, in a way that one laughs at a dog chasing his tail.

Smoke nailed it with his concise, articulate, pragmatic analysis of the situation. Last weeks, in my mind, was a bit questionable. A gray area, but in the end, irrefutable proof his photo has been published.

This guy is so obviously a professional, and anyone can see it.

Bottom line NSMB: you guys have bottled this contest.

[brentomatic]

Why? It hasn't even gotten personal yet.

Sure it has. It's negative towards the staff and judges of NSMB.com. If I were a mod, I'd can this thread. Sadly, I'm not a mod. Where's Corey when we need him?

[BrianPark]

Sure it has. It's negative towards the staff and judges of NSMB.com. If I were a mod, I can this thread. Sadly, I'm not a mod. Where's Corey when e need him?
Oh god, someone disagreeing with NSMB staff! RUN!

[white ri0t]

Sure it has. It's negative towards the staff and judges of NSMB.com. If I were a mod, I can this thread. Sadly, I'm not a mod. Where's Corey when e need him?
So whenever a discussion begins regarding the validity of a contest or something else you need to go running to your e-daddy? c'mon man. these wrinkles need to be ironed out in the spirit of fairness rather than just swept under the rug.

[brentomatic]

Flame on...flame on...

It's too bad really. I like this contest as it is and has been. It's also really too bad that there is so much negativity surrounding this board.

[trout]

There's negativity because the contest in being sandbagged and the members don't think it's fair.

[connor]

Yeah, I don't know, he's got a pretty extensive list of publications. Invited to the '05 Manitiou press camp??

[BrianPark]

Now he's gonna be like "Aw CRAP, why did I make myself look so legit online!?"

[synchro]

Flame on...flame on...

It's too bad really. I like this contest as it is and has been. It's also really too bad that there is so much negativity surrounding this board.

you're part of the team and this hits you at home. the hard thing about criticism is that its aimed at something one has worked hard (hopefully) at. it's never easy when people disagree with one's work.

i think for the most part the nsmb powers that be are decent, objective people with somewhat thick skins. they will take these comments into consideration, make a decision and then move forward. there's two sides to every story and somewhere you decide which side of the fence to stand on.

[apeshape]

I think everyone really likes this contest. I think a point of concern that should be noted by the NSMB staffers is that the old guard are complaining just as vehemently as the 18 year olds that the grassroots spirit of the contest isn't exactly lining up with the results.

Its a bit grey all over.
Sterling's process can't be blamed since he's just looking for the best photo.
NSMB can't do background checks on every entrant
And the entrants can't be expected to police themselves because even the smartest persons IQ drops 50 points when the words "online" and "contest" are combined.

I think the best thing would be to let things stand as is and immediately address the situation for the rest of the contest. A solution would be to make the rules more black and white to exclude any published photo and any photographer who has sold more than 1 photo. The latter would be hard to police but this site has always worked on the honor system anyway. There should also be a submission guideline that would limit each entrant to one photo per week just to make the pool more manageable on the NSMB side.

As to the negativity, its coming from the bad part of the best of intentions but complaining about faceless negaitivity on the internet is a bit naive. Hell ,I think "Thou shalt have a half-assed opinion about something" is right beneath "Thou shalt surf for porn" and above "Thou shalt not correct your spelling" in the 10 commandments of surfing.

[Smoke]

Sure it has. It's negative towards the staff and judges of NSMB.com. If I were a mod, I'd can this thread. Sadly, I'm not a mod. Where's Corey when we need him?

Well, it may be negative, but it's constructive negativism. I haven't seen any "Cam's a phag for not picking my shot" or anything like that. I can still support the troops but be against the war, if you catch my drift.

Not sure about the "only one photo" rule, but maybe hold off on awards for a little longer until a bit of a check is done. But in this case, it's so obvious the guy is a pro. It only took me 30 seconds to google Martin Bissiq and find his site, which explains it all. The winning shot was from a photo shoot for a Swiss bike magazine (http://www.bissig.ch/content/album/categories.php?cat_id=24&sessionid=e6d3c781db4ff77930667d58ea2b84f0), which doesn't seem to have a site anymore. Not sure if they were published or not. Again, only took a few minutes to find.

[connor]

I nominate Smoke to be "pro" Photog. police, he's got the mad google skills.

[Smoke]

I nominate Smoke to be "pro" Photog. police, he's got the mad google skills.

How much does a job like that pay? Cause if it's less than $500 a year it won't be my primary source of income and I'll want to retain my amatuer status.

[synchro]

johnny smoke, aka campbell soup, is having a good time today

[connor]

probably about $250. But if you do it for more than 1 contest, or your findings are available online you will be in trouble Mister..

[menehune]

bros before pros!

[S-Dawg]

i cant believe this happened again. the guy is obviously a pro. theres a small conteset on these photography boards that is only for members with more than 40 posts. i know it doesnt seem like much but i bet if u had to have 100 posts it weed out some people. when i first saw it i was like oh easy stuff 40 posts, ive got to about 15 and havent been back in over a week. i dunno, all i know is it sucks and i was looking foward to someone i know off the boards being a proud winner of that sweet bike. now its just a free for all, pros included, kinda sucks.

[Tom]

Like Cam said, there is more to NSMB than this board, so I don't care if someone from the board wins or not. However, this guy is obviously a professional photographer. Instant disqualification!

[FIDUN]

im gunna stay out of this, but i fully agree

[Death Lens]

Flame on...flame on...

It's too bad really. I like this contest as it is and has been. It's also really too bad that there is so much negativity surrounding this board.

I agree that there generally is quite a bit of negativity on this board and its unneccesary. But in this case some seriously valid points are being voiced.

Brent I know you have commited a portion of you're budget to this contest but can't you see where people are coming from with their issues here? two weeks in a row a pro photographer entered and won an ameteur contest.

Its great that this comp was put on in the first place and from that point nobody should be complaining too much, but anyone can see that there were a million holes in the rules and if there are dollars and credibility on the line people should accept that mistakes were made.

I'm not going to insult Cam or anyone else at NSMB because its nothing personal, its business and nobody should be taking personal shots at them. but clearly something is a miss here and if you can't take criticism or take a step back and look at things from a different point of view then your just being narrow minded. to say that if you were a mod and that you'd nuke the thread is a pretty hard headed thing to do. Theres a lot at stake here for the real ameteur photographers.

[Keefer]

Man, the photo is on his website and even says he was shooting it for Move-MTB in 2002.

Does this not mean that Move-MTB commissioned the photo?

This dude for sure seems shady.

I propose a disqualification, let him have the backpack, but not let him win the overall competition. Kinda absurd IMO.

[redsdisease]

The rules don't really make much sense to me. By the rules a person could make 25 grand from photos, but if he has a job that pays 30 grand he's in, while a man who make 1000 dollars from photography but is a bum with no job, would be disqualified. Which one do you consider to be more pro? Does that make sense?

[brentomatic]

I agree that there generally is quite a bit of negativity on this board and its unneccesary. But in this case some seriously valid points are being voiced.

Brent I know you have commited a portion of you're budget to this contest but can't you see where people are coming from with their issues here? two weeks in a row a pro photographer entered and won an ameteur contest.

Its great that this comp was put on in the first place and from that point nobody should be complaining too much, but anyone can see that there were a million holes in the rules and if there are dollars and credibility on the line people should accept that mistakes were made.

I'm not going to insult Cam or anyone else at NSMB because its nothing personal, its business and nobody should be taking personal shots at them. but clearly something is a miss here and if you can't take criticism or take a step back and look at things from a different point of view then your just being narrow minded. to say that if you were a mod and that you'd nuke the thread is a pretty hard headed thing to do. Theres a lot at stake here for the real ameteur photographers.


VERY good reply. It will be interesting to see how this contest unfolds after this thread...

[connor]

I for one have seen some pretty amazing shots in the last couple weeks I probably would have never come across otherwise. props to everyone, pro, semi-pro, joe hack, whatever.. Now when is the Lomo only contest?

[schoenrock]

a pro entering an amateur contest = cheating

[Neo]

its called "sandbagging" ;)


i'm with Smoke 100% on this.

[mattj]

I also vote for a DQ. Everyone made excellent points but really these points by Apeshape are very important. I wouldn't really accuse anyone of wrongdoing because really, everyone is innocent.


Its a bit grey all over.
Sterling's process can't be blamed since he's just looking for the best photo.
NSMB can't do background checks on every entrant
And the entrants can't be expected to police themselves because even the smartest persons IQ drops 50 points when the words "online" and "contest" are combined.



Tell me you've never entered all your family's names into online contests just so you could have more entries? do you really only fill out one ballot and leave? It's human nature with online sweepstakes, heck, any giveaways...


-m

[pedalfile]

Now when is the Lomo only contest?

Look out bitches. My trendy Holga and I will slaughter you and your Colorsplash.

[mattdh]

As far as I can see the contest is being run according to the rules and there is not much to complain about. If the photographers main source of income is not photography then he/she are playing within the rules.

I personally would like to see a contest for guys like myself who like photography (I just got a D50) but have never sold a photo. I was even planning on sacrificing a ride to run down the trail and shoot my friends riding the shore. Unfortunatly, I feel there is no point in even trying to enter because the winning photos are being taken by semi-professionals that have the resources (expensive equipment, software and great skill) to produce incredible photos. I also think that you should get only one entry per week but that's just me.

Having said that, the contest seems to be running within the rules and I am digging the awsome photos. These guys have great skill and it's inspiring to see radical photos of the sport we all love.

[Fluid]

I have to agree with mattdh...while I was originally tempted to go out and take some shots to enter this contest, now I feel there is no longer any point because my photos will never compare to the calibre that is winning. Although, it has given us all a chance to see some really amazing shots so that's positive at least.

[white ri0t]

(I just got a D50) but have never sold a photo. I was even planning on sacrificing a ride to run down the trail and shoot my friends riding the shore. Unfortunatly, I feel there is no point in even trying to enter because the winning photos are being taken by semi-professionals that have the resources (expensive equipment, software and great skill) to produce incredible photos. I also think that you should get only one entry per week but that's just me.

looking at the last two weeks winning shots, they are nothing you and your d50 can't do. The kit lens that comes with it is great. the body and lens put out great images. if you feel your lens sucks, go buy a 50mm f1.8 from ebay, I got one for $115 or so, shipped. if you want to do remote flash, you're in luck, go buy a SB800 or 600, guess what? they both do wireless flash for FREE with the d50 or d70. it does help to have a camera that can do 8 or 5 FPS, like the runner up this week, but that whole sequence could do with about 1/2 the frames, anyways (IMO). Hell, this weeks winner is not even a "FR" shot, they're climbing for god's sake! Bottom line is that you donut need all this ridiculous equipment.

you shooting nikon? I can get you a copy of nikon cpature and their editor. want photoshop CS2? PM me. I can also tell you how to set up your flash to be wireless, for free.

[apeshape]

I have to agree with mattdh...while I was originally tempted to go out and take some shots to enter this contest, now I feel there is no longer any point because my photos will never compare to the calibre that is winning. Although, it has given us all a chance to see some really amazing shots so that's positive at least.

There's a positive attitude. I don't mean to quote you specifically but that "I can't compete" excuse is getting kind of tired to me. Instead of curling up in a little ball crying why not go the other way and get pissed and try to get better so you CAN beat up on all the semi-pros? There's lots left in this contest so go out and shoot.

[mr_fungle]

This thread needs some giggles (http://www.pureesoiree.be/post.do?id=12534)!

[ChunkyMonkey]

This thread needs some giggles (http://www.pureesoiree.be/post.do?id=12534)!
Didn't know Wayne was making videos. :lol:

[Mr Ripper]

Thanks for that post Smoke, it cut to the point. This contest is far from an Amatuer contest.

Like I said before this is Crankworx, not Airaprentice.

So where is the motivation to go out and compete on a professional level?

[dawnchairy]

I haven't entered. I own a Nikon, but it's only got two buttons: one for the shutter and one for the flash. I read through some of the posts and feel that there are a lot of good arguments being made. Most of them have been in favour of how hard it is to define the terms of the contest, but how important this detail is. A lesson learned for next time, since I hope there will be a next time. The fact that people are so passionate about this is important. My only disappointment has been with the posts that have said that people shouldn't complain for some reason. I feel that everyone should have the right to complain if they feel that something is wrong. Whether we feel that they are justified, or should just suck it up is up for discussion. However some of the people that have had issues with the winners have made me think about aspects of the competition that hadn't occurred to me at first. Maybe through some discussion I'll decide that their complaints aren't justified, maybe they'll change their opinions as well. Maybe, through some discussion, their complaints will prove to be valid and important. I don't feel that it is a good idea to dismiss their complaints simply because we should be thankful just to have this contest.

[synchro]

I don't feel that it is a good idea simply to dismiss their complaints simply because we should be thankful just to have this contest.

neither do i, but people need to raise their concerns in a civil manner.

[Fast&Smooth]

levels what levels where

[dawnchairy]

I agree.

[gurp]

...and I don't feel like I have no chance. I just got into photography last summer when my girlfriend gave me a digital point and shoot. I got so into it that last month I bought a D50 and a couple of lenses. I've spent the last month and a half reading endless amount of information on photography, all free on the internet. I probably won't win, but I don't feel like the odds are impossible. It's all about how much time and passion you put into it. Just like riding.