Ghetto Tubeless Question

[03stinkyrida]

So ive tired setting up the tubeless system, Ive put the bmx tube over the rim, cut it in half, put the tire on the rim and then i tried to inflate it first without the slime i have in it. It doesnt work. Should it be inflating? It wont set or inflate. Im using michelin tires which are tubeless if that makes any difference. Does anyone know whats going on here? thanks

[AnTi-TrAiL_nAzI]

you should be able to get them to seat. will they take air at all? if they will, try overenflating the tire to get it to seat on the rim.. if not maby your bead on your tire is malformed?

[03stinkyrida]

nope they wont take any air....

[AnTi-TrAiL_nAzI]

what rims??
maby try putting them on the bike regular tube style, ride that for a few days so the bead will take form of the rim, than try your tubeless set up? i am persuming these are new tires.

[dirty deeds]

you need to push down on the tyre all the way around to force the bead out. Then you've got to blast with an air compressor. Nothing else will work.

A word of caution though - I did the ghetto tubeless a month ago and I'm now back on tubes. First 2 weeks was OK. The front was the first to go. The tyre blew right off the rim dropping down the first chute on Wild Cherry. Pretty hairy. The rear went last week. I burped it pretty good at Whistler, tried to inflate with a compressor. The valve was totally plugged with slime so it wouldn't fill. Had find a core remover, then pull the whole thing apart with green slime everywhere. What a freakin mess.

That was Navigal on Mavic 721 with slimy yellow/green Canadian tire tyre sealant.

I might give it another try with Stan's.

[oryx_ryder]

What are you inflating it with? A foot pump usually won't do it for the first seating of the bead. Try an air compressor.

[03stinkyrida]

ive tried an air compressor, i just cant get it seated for some reason

[dirty deeds]

unless you get those beads out to sorta where they should be the air will just blow right through. That's why you've gotta press down on the tyre and push the bead out into it's channel.

and like atn says if the beads have been there before they'll remember where to go, so slightly used tyres work best. if they are brand new try mounting them with tubes and ride for a week.

[03stinkyrida]

ive been riding these tires for the whole season so far so they are defiently broken in even when im pushing them around i cant get the bead to seat! AHHHHH this was supposed to be so easy!!!

[dirty deeds]

you remembered to put the valve core back in, right?

OK

try laying the wheel on its side resting on the axle after you push out the bead. That way there should be even pressure all round. Eye ball it and make sure the tyre is sitting uniformly on the rim all the way around. Jam that air hose on the valve and it should fill it.

[Darklord]

It's a really easy system, as long as you have a decent tyre (my 24" stout won't seal as it's too loose a fit).
Also, I stick the latex sealant into the tire rather than through the valve, that seems to relieve the valve bunged problem. Not all latex are equal, I found Mold Builder to be the best.
I've been running it for a month or so now, no probs at all (Mt7, Kicking Horse, Whizzla, Shore). I always run 25-30psi though as I hate the feeling of a tire squirming under me.
But friends have had problems (ripped tire casings (freak occurance), and too low of a pressure - causing burping)
A ratchet strap around the circumference (my teacher said I'd use that word one day) helps push the bead out whilst using a compressor.

Heal up Baloom!

[03stinkyrida]

thanks i'll have to try that tommorow when i can get to a gas station again, Any other ideas?

[AnTi-TrAiL_nAzI]

where abouts is the air coming out of? if its only 1 specific area, maby try gettin that area to seab by pullin and pushing the top of the tire arround?

[Ninja]

Rap a small string around the whole tire, and tie it tight. Next put a long screw driver in between the tire and string wraping the string around the screw driver shaft, and start spinning the screwdriver end for end. Tightening the string in the process. This will seat the tire onto the rim and spread the breads towards the rim flanges. This the method used to seat truck tires on the rim, out in the bush, only I used a ratchet strap....

Heal up soon Baloom

[Ninja]

A ratchet strap around the circumference (my teacher said I'd use that word one day) helps push the bead out whilst using a compressor.

Heal up Baloom!

Damn you beat me too it!

[dirty deeds]

Not all latex are equal, I found Mold Builder to be the best.

Heal up Baloom!

wher'dya get that?

I tried Michaels and C-tire and neither know wtf I'm talking about.

[Wayne P]

Peter, use the Stan's kit and enough PSI and you won't have issues.

[HIBuLlitT]

I've had ghetto for a while now and it survived a few months of riding here and a 1.5wks at Whislter. I use stans and only stans, no burping (I run 20-25 on a 3.0" and 30 on a 2.5"). I've always used my floor pump and no problems.

1) Install new tire w/ tube.
2) Ride around for an hour or so
3) Take tube out
4) Put in 20" tube, cut etc
5) Put new tire on 90%
6) Put stans in
7) Put tire on 100%
8) Have soapy water handy
9) Inflate and rotate tire/rim sideways on both sides to distribute stans
10) Put tire on bike
11) Ride

No problems... 8)

[HIBuLlitT]

^ BTW i'm not trying to be a smart-a$$ but I started using the Stan's system a couple years ago w/ no problems (I burped once but no flat, pumped up on trail kept riding). I started using the ghetto method because I didn't want to wait for a mail order shippment to come. But I am a firm believer that the Stan's mixture is the only way. It has stopped air leaking from 1/8" rips on a sidewall.

There is one issue w/ the Stan's system. The valve to strip bond doesn't last more than 1.5-2 years. My buddy had his stem fall off trying to inflate and I had mine do the same when I tried to inflate (at Whistler). The good thing about the ghetto version is you are kind of forced to put a new strip/tube in every time you change tires, and BMX tires are cheap.

my $.02

[Wayne P]

I'm using almost 4 year old Stan's rim strips. Worth the money.

[switch]

wher'dya get that?

I tried Michaels and C-tire and neither know wtf I'm talking about.Michaels has it. I bought a jar of it at the one in North Vancouver (across from Cove Bikes). You have to know where to look. I found it in an aisle about half way down the left side of the store.

But buy the Stan's sealant. The kit is expensive, but extra sealant doesn't cost much more than a jar of the mold builder.

[Loopie]

I found Mold Builder to be the best.
That stuff kicks ass:cool:

[Loopie]

thanks i'll have to try that tommorow when i can get to a gas station again, Any other ideas?
This thread is almost pointless if you haven't tried compressed air for the initial inflation. Before trouble shooting further...you MUST at least try that.
Now...I couldn't get a new tire to seat with compressed air, no matter what...but take a few runs on the tire with a tube in it..no prob setting up the tubeless:)

[03stinkyrida]

This thread is almost pointless if you haven't tried compressed air for the initial inflation. Before trouble shooting further...you MUST at least try that.
Now...I couldn't get a new tire to seat with compressed air, no matter what...but take a few runs on the tire with a tube in it..no prob setting up the tubeless:)
I have already tried that, i was saying i would try again when i get to a gas station.

[DaveM]

I'm using almost 4 year old Stan's rim strips. Worth the money.

Do you use the complete Stan's system Wayne? No problems, burps, flats, leaks etc? Are you using it just for racing or all around riding? This is something I might be interested in.

[Dean W]

So ive tired setting up the tubeless system, Ive put the bmx tube over the rim, cut it in half, put the tire on the rim and then i tried to inflate it first without the slime i have in it. It doesnt work. Should it be inflating? It wont set or inflate. Im using michelin tires which are tubeless if that makes any difference. Does anyone know whats going on here? thanks

From your description above you are doing everything correctly.

The tire should inflate with a high volume air compressor like the ones found at gas stations. It may take a few minutes to get it to seat on the bead but it will work. I did a wheel the other day (2.5" Michelin Comp 24 on a Mavic EX729), it took a few minutes to get it to seat on the bead properly but once it was on the bead there were no air leaks at all. I then remove the valve internals to let the air out. Put your latex sealant in the tire. Re-insert the valve internals. Pump up your tire and ride around to spread the sealant inside the tire.

I have been using the Liquid Latex Mold Maker from Michaels mixed 50/50 with water for over a year now and have had no real issues. I have played with air pressure allot and find that running a higher pressure than normal is better......the reason?........30psi tubeless feels like 20psi with a tube. You need to put more psi than you think when comparing it to a tubed tire. 25psi tubeless will feel like 15psi tubed and in my experience has resulted in lots of expensive bent and cracked rims. I am on my 5th....Mavic D321/EX729 in 1 year....that's about $500 including spokes and nipples all due to me running far too little air pressure in my tubeless setups. I did not experience any flats or total wheel failures, just mangled expensive French made hoops. So run 32-40psi when you finally get the tire to seat then go down in 2psi increments until you are totally satisfied that you aren't going to bend and or crack your rims.

[03stinkyrida]

im using that same set up, 729, with michi 2.5's do you have any tips for getting them seated properly?

[Dean W]

im using that same set up, 729, with michi 2.5's do you have any tips for getting them seated properly?

Tips:

Once the tire is on the rim and you are ready at the Gas Station with the air hose. Sit on the ground and hug the tire/wrap as much of your body around the tire to get the bead of the tire touching something so that when you put air in the tire it will hold. You may look a little funny, but it works. I had to do this just the other day. After a couple of seconds the tire inflated.

Once you have air in the tire, over inflate it to about 60psi and make sure the entire tire gets seated into the bead on both sides. From there you know the procedure.......valve stem out, sealant in, air in and ride.

[Wayne P]

Do you use the complete Stan's system Wayne? No problems, burps, flats, leaks etc? Are you using it just for racing or all around riding? This is something I might be interested in.

I am using the complete system for all riding, XC, FR, DH, and I would on the road bike if it were available.

I have burped out some air only from using a UST rim without a Stan's rim strip. You shold use the strip no matter if your rim is a UST or not. You get a far greater seal from the rubber/rubber contact.

I have had one leak from a shard of glass in my tire, but the sealant did its job.

I have flatted twice in almost 4 years from pinch flatting my rear tires. It was from hitting a sharp edged rock at about 60kms/hr both times. Many other times I would've flatted as I used to be the flat master! I recently destroyed a 721 from a couple runs down Ned's, but the tire stayed inflated.

Go for it, you won't be sorry. (just don't use too little air pressure)

[sanrensho]

(just don't use too little air pressure)

What PSI have you found to be best with Stans?

[03stinkyrida]

I tried again today with the air compressor, nothings happening...this is really pissing me off, i want to try this tubeless system but its so far just been a pain in the ass, but i dont want to use tubes any more. Does anyone have any other ideas on what to do? or should i just take it to the shop and get them to do it.

[Wayne P]

I tried again today with the air compressor, nothings happening...this is really pissing me off, i want to try this tubeless system but its so far just been a pain in the ass, but i dont want to use tubes any more. Does anyone have any other ideas on what to do? or should i just take it to the shop and get them to do it.

Yes! I have an idea:

Use STAN'S RIM STRIPS! How can I make it any more clear?

[Wayne P]

What PSI have you found to be best with Stans?

It depends on the tire, your weight, and the riding style. I usually run about 25-30 for the shore, and about 30-40 for racing. That's only on a 2 ply tire. A single ply would be more under the same riding conditions.

[Universe]

Yes! I have an idea:

Use STAN'S RIM STRIPS! How can I make it any more clear?

Don't mean to be an ass, but he wants to use the ghetto system, so telling him over and over to get Stans doesn't really help his case. The system works, he is just obviously having a couple issues that can be sorted.

[Wayne P]

Don't mean to be an ass, but he wants to use the ghetto system, so telling him over and over to get Stans doesn't really help his case. The system works, he is just obviously having a couple issues that can be sorted.

...and with those issues, why not just buy something that works better that he could have for years? Good advice if you ask me, not to be an ass.

[XXX_er]

hey wayne I mounted up my 2,3 stick-E nevegal non-ust tire today , no strip on the ust rim and no soap to get the tire seated althou I did use the compresser at the shop to seat the tire and it did puke a little stans sealant for awhile

I ran it at 35lb and MAN IS IT FAST!! ... can't wait to put one on the back as well

Is the idea with Stick=E to run higher pressures for lower rolling resistance and with sticky rubber the rubber on each individual knob is flexing for grip as opposed to the whole tire flexing when you are running it at low pressure??

[Wayne P]

Sure. Knob pattern too. Also the tire w/o a tube is not as solid as one with a tube, so you have to comprimise with more air for stability.

[XXX_er]

yeah at 35lb It seemed like the tire casing was deflecting more and the tread was contacting the ground more than normal

the traction in fairly dry soil on singletrack woods conditions was at least as good as I am used to but the difference in rolling resistance was VERY noticable pretty stoked on these tires

[switch]

Yes! I have an idea:

Use STAN'S RIM STRIPS! How can I make it any more clear?Do you think the problem is that the cut tube is making it hard for the tire bead to sit properly?

It suppose it could be possible to have a similar problem with the Stan's setup.

[HIBuLlitT]

I tried again today with the air compressor, nothings happening...this is really pissing me off, i want to try this tubeless system but its so far just been a pain in the ass, but i dont want to use tubes any more. Does anyone have any other ideas on what to do? or should i just take it to the shop and get them to do it.

Pre-seat the tire then do the strip/sealant.

I'm not that sold on the Stan's strips just the sealant (which is awesome). I nor anyone I know (in person) has had any issues with a variety of tires used. I feel that you might not have put a tube in and rode the tire before putting on the strip. If this is the case...

Pre-seat the tire then do the strip/sealant.

Other than that, I can't figure it out. If you're having this much prob with ghetto system, I don't think you'll be able to get the stans to work either.


Pre-seat the tire then do the strip/sealant.
Pre-seat the tire then do the strip/sealant.
Pre-seat the tire then do the strip/sealant.
Pre-seat the tire then do the strip/sealant.
Pre-seat the tire then do the strip/sealant.

Good luck!

[switch]

I'm not that sold on the Stan's strips just the sealant (which is awesome).I'm not 100% sold on the whole concept. It's not as solid as a car wheel/tire setup, which is what it needs to be given what it being ridden.

Matt Martindale ran the Stan's setup this year at the Test of Metal. He blew out both tires and had to retire.

If I were a racer, I'd glue the bead to the rim.

[HIBuLlitT]

I'm not 100% sold on the whole concept. It's not as solid as a car wheel/tire setup, which is what it needs to be given what it being ridden.


If I were a racer, I'd glue the bead to the rim.

I would have to disagree that it's not that secure. I think that the ghetto version is more secure as it's rubber to rubber contact on the whole bead.

I keep reading that people are recommending filling up the tire then putting the sealant in. I have to disagree there too. I put the Stan's (which is far superior to latex/water) in before I do the initial inflation. It seeps out of the tire/rim joint a little but the beauty is that it's gluing the tire to the rubber of the ghetto tube.

You can quote someone that blew out his tire racing, but Cedric blew out his tire right off the bat on the garbo race and I believe he runs tubes or ust.

Although me and the guys I ride w/ aren't pros, and I can only claim a 10' drop as my biggest. The other guys are regularly doing up to 15' drops and 20' gaps w/ real rough landings. None of us has ever had a problem except the two valves parting the stans rim strip.

BTW-I run 20-25lbs in front and 30-35lbs in back no issues. Maybe I'm just so smooth, NOT! LOL :P

In the end, there are tons of different products to do the same thing because there are so many different people and if it works for you great if not try something else?

Peace

[XXX_er]

I was able to air mine up with no soap,at which point it was pinhole leaking from the sidwalls and losing a fair amount at the bead.Since I have presta valves on the mavic UST rims I couldnt put the sealant in thru the valve so I pried away a 2 inch section of bead clipped the levers to the spokes and poured the sealant in the tire .I popped the bead back on ,pulled the sidewalls sideways at that point I was good to go .

when I did try the ghetto system I did get a 2.3 tioga to seat but it leaked alot cuz I didnt take the rim strip off and the 317 rim was pretty narrow which interfered with the shrader valve sitting properly on the rim,in any case I just abandoned it

the system works and is secure,on true ust rims I was able to instal 2 brands of true ust tires with a foot pump and they worked flawlessly.

here I am just gpoing for that last extra bit of performance with a non ust tire

[Universe]

...and with those issues, why not just buy something that works better that he could have for years? Good advice if you ask me, not to be an ass.

I don't know, because you aren't answering his question maybe? I thought it was simple.

[pakutrick]

when I did try the ghetto system I did get a 2.3 tioga to seat but it leaked alot


there's your problem right there... tioga's leak like sieves.

[Wayne P]

Do you think the problem is that the cut tube is making it hard for the tire bead to sit properly?

It suppose it could be possible to have a similar problem with the Stan's setup.


First Q: Yes. The tire's bead doesn't sit as well. There are also little gaps made if you cut the tube to fit under the rim's lip.

Second Q: Not at all, unless you are using too little air pressure.


For that guy in the Test o' Metal, he just didn't set it up properly. I'm guessing he didn't have nearly enough air in his tires, and when using XC tires, you need lots.