dual control

[Dalifted1]

i bought a bike this year that came with the new xtr dual control shifters with rapid rise. Now i cursed these things and hated them for about a month or so. But now i am in love with thier simplicity i know everyone says oh it shifts when u brake thou, not true at first i had some mishaps but once i go thte lever positioned perfect and learned how to use it i have become hooked. What are your opinions out there on these dual control and also rapid rise derailuers?

[Nelson]

i bought a bike this year that came with the new xtr dual control shifters with rapid rise. Now i cursed these things and hated them for about a month or so. But now i am in love with thier simplicity i know everyone says oh it shifts when u brake thou, not true at first i had some mishaps but once i go thte lever positioned perfect and learned how to use it i have become hooked. What are your opinions out there on these dual control and also rapid rise derailuers?

I dig 'em. Though if you gotta go through some gears and you're on kinda bumpy terrain, it's tricky not to shift 5 gears by accident...

Rapid rise rocks. :dizzy:

[IFO]

dont u find the lever blades to be hella short/thin ??

when i tried the dual-control assemblies i found the levers were sized for baby-hands..

[SkunkworkS]

I wasn't a fan of the dual control. Too many accidental shifts and the lever blades were the weakest looking blades, ever.

[Tom]

Haven't tried dual control, but I have rapid rise on my AC1 and like it. No problems shifting down while pedaling hard uphill.

[Straw]

Rapid rise is OK, but the shifter/brake lever combo is not a good idea in my opinion. I'd end up shifting while I wanted to be braking, and the lever would slip out of my fingers. I found when I'd have to find the brake really quickly in an emergency, if I didn't get it just right I'd end up pushing it away.

[Wayne P]

Both rapid rise and dual control are probably the last products I would ever use on my bike. DC works great on road bikes, but is completely counter-intuitive on MTB's.

[Oldfart]

I think it's the best set up for XC, expecially with short fingers where triggers are a reach. I have been on the XTR since '03 and have never shifted when I braked. It did take about 6 weeks before I didn;t shift the wrong way, but once learned, I loved it. I recently got VPFree with lx trigger shifters. Now I remember what I liked about triggers...not much. But I think for DH and freeriding, it might not be the best.

[Wayne P]

Even for XC riding, I find it to be as ass-backwards as anything out there. I like twist shifters on my XC bike, but a good set of X9 triggers are the mose intuitive shifters you could ever use. Com'on Andy, SRAM X0 for '06!

[dudski]

dont you shift when you hop with your finger on the brake?

[toaster469]

dont you shift when you hop with your finger on the brake?

don't YOU shift when you hop with your finger on the brake?

probably not after you get used to them

[Oldfart]

dont you shift when you hop with your finger on the brake?

Nope. And Wayne, the SRAM triggers are not set up close enough to my finger tips. I have to move my hand quite a bit to hit the finger paddle if the the thumb paddle is in the spot my thumb likes.

[cycla4sh0]

the first time i used them,i didnt know how to shift with them but i didnt have any complaints about the high to low..or is it vice versa? i like it alot.

[derwood]

Id give my left nut to find a first year rapid rise XTR derailleur again.....I loved those things....

[Straw]

Id give my left nut to find a first year rapid rise XTR derailleur again.....I loved those things....

With the integrated rollamajig!

[XXX_er]

my take

I used rapidrise (but not dual control) at inter-bike,on a Giant Reign , the only one of a doz or so bikes I rode and it confused the hell out of me and the rocky singletrack in the desert looked kinda intimidating so i left it in one gear on our mostly downhill test loop.

My experiance has me asking what a customer taking a prospective bike for a spin around the block will react?Get used to it or buy something he test rode with a system he is already used to ?AND if you own more than one bikehow how will they go back and forth??I know a buddy was looking at the old rapid rise on a bike and he told the seller "well I either have to change to rapid rise on my commuter bike or have you change this bike over"

how is rapid rise going over in the industry?Is it my imagination or has SRAM gained huge market share,partly cuz of this and the fact that shimano didnt release specs to bike makers ???

[Wayne P]

The last issue of MB Action with the industry folk's take on Shimano vs. SRAM tells it how it is.

If Shimano didn't use a 2:1 ratio, then they wouldn't have a need for rapid rise. Actually, they don't need it anyway. It's pointless. They need to get the "road" out of their MTB groupos. What does it say when a road derailleur is the top choice for DH'ers over Shimano's MTB gear?

I used to like XTR drivetrains - thought they were the cat's ass. That's before I proceeded to destroy 4 in one season from chain slap. I put a plastic SRAM 9.0 on there and it lasted me all of the following year. XTR, no matter what year, are not good derailleurs.

I hope SRAM comes out with a road drivetrain soon.

[XXX_er]

I glanced at the MBA artical and I wondered how accurate it is?

anybody out there selling bikes to the masses got any experiances with customers and their reaction to rapidrise,did it kill a sale?

I think maybe shimano picked the wrong time to be arrogant but there is never really a good time is there?

[*Pepe*]

some of these posts never cease to amaze me.

perhaps if you are incapable of the simple mental leap needed to operate a different style of shifting as in, "Duh, I dunno which way to push the lever," (be it Rapid Rise, Grip Shift, Dual Control, SRAM Triggers, thumb levers, etc.), you may not want to write publicly about your delusions of adequacy.

and to those who think Shimano is a corporation bent on stamping out choice in the market, imposing its "systems" view of cycling on the sport to the detriment of its participants, I laugh because people want to see conspiracies in what they do. i'm sure if we were in on their meetings and saw their limitations, they'd know that dominating everyone is not what's driving the discussion.

[XXX_er]

I mean it in the nicest way but what the fuck do you know about my reality?In my experiance if you gotta think about doing something be it shifting,skiing,paddling its too late ... it has to be automatic and it aint gona be automatic if you own several systems .

I doubt Shimano sits around plotting world domination of the bike parts business but if joe average see's it that way then the customer is always right ... just like if joe user can't or doesnt want to get used to rapid rise or dual control he is actualy right.

[*Pepe*]

I mean it in the nicest way but what the fuck do you know about my reality?In my experiance if you gotta think about doing something be it shifting,skiing,paddling its too late ... it has to be automatic and it aint gona be automatic if you own several systems .

I doubt Shimano sits around plotting world domination of the bike parts business but if joe average see's it that way then the customer is always right ... just like if joe user can't or doesnt want to get used to rapid rise or dual control he is actualy right.

whoa! just a minute there... i wasn't referring to your post! sorry for any confusion.

but since you brought it up, i've been riding for close to 20 years and have used every system imaginable. i just made another switch 3 months ago and it really wasn't a problem to adapt and it's automatic now. you mention you have several systems and that poses a problem. do the same difficulties apply if you drive a standard car versus an automatic? can you make the leap between the two systems easily or are you slamming on the brakes when in fact you're trying to disengage/engage the clutch? i imagine you are adapting nicely, though.

and respectfully, no... the customer is not always right. there are cases where businesses ask their customers to take their business elsewhere as they are more trouble than they are worth. specifically speaking about shimano however, i agree with you and it seems shimano has recognized that DC and low-normal is not for everyone and have since introduced products to address this.

[XXX_er]

whoa! just a minute there... i wasn't referring to your post! sorry for any confusion.

but since you brought it up, i've been riding for close to 20 years and have used every system imaginable. i just made another switch 3 months ago and it really wasn't a problem to adapt and it's automatic now. you mention you have several systems and that poses a problem. do the same difficulties apply if you drive a standard car versus an automatic? can you make the leap between the two systems easily or are you slamming on the brakes when in fact you're trying to disengage/engage the clutch? i imagine you are adapting nicely, though.

and respectfully, no... the customer is not always right. there are cases where businesses ask their customers to take their business elsewhere as they are more trouble than they are worth. specifically speaking about shimano however, i agree with you and it seems shimano has recognized that DC and low-normal is not for everyone and have since introduced products to address this.

actualy after 8 years and 500k kilometeres on a 5 spd when I drove my dads 3 spd auto mini van WITHOUT THINKING I kept reaching for the stick for at least the 1st 15 min.,no biggy in the suburbs of Vancover and actualy a good thing cuz all the stuff I do on skis/bikes/kayaks HAS to be done without thinking

I have made the jump from toploaders/rapidfire/sram thumb shifters and I am sure I could get used to rapidrise but nowdays I got 3 bikes... which I didnt have back then ,multiple bikes will be a problem for me

As for Shimano the corprate thing,rapid rise didnt work last time,the customer didnt like it ,maybe those duds in marketing fluffed the ball so lets get a new marketing team and do it again cuz the customer is obviuosly wrong .SO in magazines doesnt Shimano have black and white picts of various pro's basicaly being paid to hold up 2 fingers ... I aint buying it

Shimano reminds me of IBM ... so far out in front that the only competition was between divisions within the company.They thot they didnt have to listen ,in fact they missed the boat on the PC entirely, instead they tried to tell the customers they needed mini van sized mainframes and now look at the IT industry compared to 30-40 years ago when IBM was KING...things could be WAY different right now in IT

[rowdy01]

Well when i bought my last complete bike (rm 7), i had them switch the grip shift over to trigger. I just didn`t like the idea of the bike changing gears when i wasn`t expecting it to. Asked the mechanic if anyone else was doing this, he said all most everyone!

food for thought.....it`s your bike, do with it what you want.

[derwood]

With the integrated rollamajig!
yes sir!

[Trini-dad72]

My two bits:
I like regular shifting. Period. My Devinci came with a Rapid Rise derailler, and I hated it. I tried to get it figured out in my head, believe me. I just couldn't deal with it, so I got it changed, and I have been happy ever since. All of the bikes that I ride, and have rode, have "normal" shifting, and I like it that way. As for Gripshift, I like that for XC stuff.

[derwood]

My two bits:
I like regular shifting. Period. My Devinci came with a Rapid Rise derailler, and I hated it. I tried to get it figured out in my head, believe me. I just couldn't deal with it, so I got it changed, and I have been happy ever since. All of the bikes that I ride, and have rode, have "normal" shifting, and I like it that way. As for Gripshift, I like that for XC stuff.
For me,having the down shifts on my index finger make/made sense...most of the time when i need to dn shift it means im in trouble or in /approaching a messy section of trail.

One spot that comes to mind is the 1/2 way point of the old Campbell mtn DH course...coming down a straight section(with a 60 kmh speed limit sign to boot) into a hard left off camber into a slight up hill...I like not having to change my hand position to dump a bunch of gears while braking and trying to hold a line while looking around the corner....

But thats just me!

[Dalifted1]

rapid rise is an easy adjustment to make and it makes sense to me u can dump a bunch of gears to get your speed that you need on dh. the dual control was a bit more tricky to get used too. But i must say i love them now i find i shift more with the dual control caue i dont have to put my fingers anywhere to shift it is already there and it is actually alot harder then u think to mishift when braking or just mis shift in general. But as always different strokes for different folks. The one other thing about rapid rise is that i think it is less wear and tear on the drive train like u know when u are on an uphill and u need to change and the gears just grind in rapid rise doesnt seem to do taht because it isnt fighting it it wants to go up in gears.

[TylerDurden]

I switched to dual control after I saw the cool two-finger Shimano ads with all the freeride rockstars........"schaw, and monkeys might fly outta my butt!"

If I wanna throw my $$ away, I'll go to the RiverRock....on my bike of course.

[polytics]

The last issue of MB Action with the industry folk's take on Shimano vs. SRAM tells it how it is.

If Shimano didn't use a 2:1 ratio, then they wouldn't have a need for rapid rise. Actually, they don't need it anyway. It's pointless. They need to get the "road" out of their MTB groupos. What does it say when a road derailleur is the top choice for DH'ers over Shimano's MTB gear?

I used to like XTR drivetrains - thought they were the cat's ass. That's before I proceeded to destroy 4 in one season from chain slap. I put a plastic SRAM 9.0 on there and it lasted me all of the following year. XTR, no matter what year, are not good derailleurs.

I hope SRAM comes out with a road drivetrain soon.

Actually... Shimano's road derailleurs don't use rapid rise.

It took me a little over a month to be able to use rapid rise intuitively but the first thing I noticed was less chain wear/breakage. With RR the loads definitely aren't as harsh.

I like the new SRAM derailleurs as well, although I think the ultimate evolution for freeride and DH will be a cross between a Saint and an XO.

I have very little time on the Dual Control levers, and they probably aren't something I would buy myself; however, I do like the ability to position my brake levers as far in as I like them without it affecting shifting (the main reason I ran grip shift for a long time) and I think the length of the blades is moot since most riders I know only use one finger.

[Oldfart]

I think the only mountainbike shifting arrangement I have not used is SRAM triggers. To me, RR and integrated shifters work best. But I have short fingers and come from a mostly XC and Road background. I have 3 different shifting set ups, XTR rr integrated on the xc bike, Dura-Ace on the road bike and lx triggers with high normal xt on the VPFREE. They all work and I rarely shift the wrong way on any although I do sometimes push on the vpfree brake levers to shift, but it is rare. I must admit that I found grip shift shifted a bit quicker than Shimano, but the twister was too wide which meant the brake lever was too inboard for me to reach with my middle finger. I can't use my index finger to brake very well because it's too short. Once that finger is actually around the lever blade properly, the blade is on the grip. Triggers similarly require a contortion to the release trigger if the the thumb paddle is where i like it.

I was totally against low normal in it's first incarnation, rapid rise. I actually believed the magazine editors were right that I needed to physically force a shift to a lower gear. I now know that is nonsense. Wayne, you're sounding a bit like a retrogrouch. You ain't nearly old enough for that bro. That's my job!

Intersting footnote, Campy use 1:1 ratio too I hear. Wayne, weren't you saying that yopu prefered your Sora shifting road bike to a Chorus equiped one?

I think that it is actually getting pretty hard to get crappy equipment now. It all work extremely well. The hard charging dh riders and freeriders might be better served by gearbox systems, but the derailleur will live on for a long time in xc and road because it is the most efficient in terms of driveline friction. I thought DH'ers use road derailleurs to get the short cage to keep the chain as tight as possible and keep things a tiny bit lighter too.

[Wayne P]

Actually... Shimano's road derailleurs don't use rapid rise.


Really???

[Wayne P]

Intersting footnote, Campy use 1:1 ratio too I hear. Wayne, weren't you saying that yopu prefered your Sora shifting road bike to a Chorus equiped one?

It was Centaur. The only reason I didn't like the feel of Campy was the very harsh feeling when I shifted. It did shift just fine most of the time, but felt unrefined. The cheapo Shimano feels smoother. However the Campy hoods/levers I absolutely love - small and easy to wrap your hands around (insert joke).

I'm far from a retrogrouch Andy... I'm all for innovation, but innovation that makes sense to most people. I don't like the direction that Shimano is going whilst there's a company like SRAM who offers better quality & performance bar none. I wish they would take over the high-end road market too.

[XXX_er]

I think SRAM is trying pretty hard and it snot just becuz of all the free swag I got from them

[Oldfart]

You know Wayne, I find my Dura Ace is a chunkier shifting set up than the Ultegra I had before. I think they all make high end road shifters more positive and therefore more harsh feeling. I too prefer a softer smoother feeling shifter. Maybe I need more miles on the road bike.

I disagree with SRAM making better quality stuff. Equal quality, different functioning, but not better in my eyes. And no way in my view are Truvativ cranks nicer than Shimano cranks of a similar level. Shimano rings shift the best and the fit and finish is better than Truvativ. Avid Brakes are damn good, but I wouldn't say better than Shimano. Certainly equal although their Juicy lever has more adjustment and a different ergonomic, makes no never mind to me, I like 'em both the same. I do love how I got on the Juicy equipped bike and the brakes felt perfect once broken in, no different than my XTR other than the big rotor being a thingh of beauty.

You know I'm teasing you on the retrogrouch thing eh? But if you were offended, too bad.

[Wayne P]

Ha! No offence here!

P.S. Lay off the wobbly pops.