blew the shock huge today

[mattj]

Wow, 2nd ride on the new bike and bye bye Swinger. Not sure what to think. there is no way the guy I bought the bike from had blown the shock previously. When I took a small drop today the shock locked upon landing. Rode the rest of the trail with the shock fully compressed. When I got to the bottom I investigated what happened, couldn't find anything useful. Tried to play with the air pressure, when I let it ALL out, the shock turned into a spring with no rebound or compression control, a pogo stick, as little as 10 pounds in there and it locked upon compression again.

I would like to know if I should be hating on Manitou or what. It's hard not to when the product fails this catastrophically so early in its life.

I'm thinking of going Avalanche again. I ran one on my Banshee in 2003 and it worked pretty well for me. Any thoughts on an Avalanche-equipped Demo9?


-m

[Brad Dawg]

those things blow if there isnt enough air pressure in them

[JSinclair]

Quick trip to OGC Matt and they should get you sorted.

The guy you are looking for is James.

They are at th efoot of main St. in Vancouver (South end near Marine). You can find them in the book under Outdoor gear Canada.

James will fix you up.

[Rosscofat]

yup james is the man! I will soon b workin with him :D

[mattj]

I'm already in the wait queue at JH, they will send the shock in. Does anyone have a contact number for James? Could you please PM me? I will call him and ask him myself and if he is willing to help me out I'll go grab my shock from JH today. Thanks for the tips guys!

Also, Brad, so if the air pressure is set up right it won't blow like this again? The pressure was set at ~100 psi - I guess at my weight and ride style I should be at more like 130-145 eh?


-m

[corey@nsmb.com]

It happens..when these and the 5ths first came out, everyone was going on about how much more reliable they were than the Fox RC and how much stronger they were.

But, just like some of the Fox shocks, some of the Manitous and 5ths blow too. I've seen some last years in service, and Ive see some fail out of the box.

It sounds to me like a seal blew in the shock and moved air or oil to the wrong portion of the inside, and that was why it was kept "locked" in a compressed position.

Sounds like you had everything right, but the shock just failed.

The good news is ther service is good. You will be rolling in no time.

[mattj]

^that sounds promising. Thanks Corey. Still definitely a little (ok, a lot) turned off the shock. Let's see if the after-sales service can woo me back...

Don't worry about PMing me the number. I already contacted James and left a message....


-m

[Wayne P]

Wait cue??? What's that? Go to Steed and talk to Scott and he'll send it off right away.

[corey@nsmb.com]

^that sounds promising. Thanks Corey. Still definitely a little (ok, a lot) turned off the shock. Let's see if the after-sales service can woo me back...

Don't worry about PMing me the number. I already contacted James and left a message....


-m

If it makes you feel any better, I've seen lots of cases where a shock blew early, was rebuilt, and then lasted ages in service.

Odds are you'll get it back and ride trouble free for the time you own that bike.

[peachy-B]

no one comes to james and leaves dissatisfied. he3 his work is second to none.

[Rat]

Dale the Manitou guru from Dizzy is now working for OGC now as well. Seems like OGC knows how to hire quality people.

[Universe]

If it makes you feel any better, I've seen lots of cases where a shock blew early, was rebuilt, and then lasted ages in service.

Odds are you'll get it back and ride trouble free for the time you own that bike.

Exactly what happened to me and my Demo. Get it rebuilt. Been riding mine hard for over a year and its sweet.

[peachy-B]

Dale the Manitou guru from Dizzy is now working for OGC now as well. Seems like OGC knows how to hire quality people.

yeah. dale was the one who worked on my fork.... but james did all the adjustments/re-valving on the dampening and the ok on the final work. sweet!

[How]

dude those 5th element and manitou shocks have just not been holding up to the conditions around here, everyone runs Avalanche or DHX nothing else seems to work... i'm on season 2 1/2 w my avy and it's only been recharged once feels great.

[mattj]

Picking up my Avalanche shock tomorrow. Huge props to Craig from Avalanche for going from getting my call to getting my custom-tuned shock from NY-Seattle in about 30 hours! See yous up at Whistler Saturday!


-m

[JSinclair]

dude those 5th element and manitou shocks have just not been holding up to the conditions around here, everyone runs Avalanche or DHX nothing else seems to work... i'm on season 2 1/2 w my avy and it's only been recharged once feels great.

must be way ngarlier than the shore where you are. :rolleyes:

Manitou and 5th are some of the best shocks out there. To make a brash statement about the fact that they don't work is naive no?

It is just unlucky that Matt hit a shock that had issues. I had a 5th for 2.5 years with NO service and it was awesome.

I am on a 5th now and it is awesome.

makes me laugh when I hear people say that the only shock worth having is an Avalanche.

[Incorrigible]

All shocks can blow. My 5th element blew twice a year. It's part of the deal. I just ordered another Manitou 6 way in case my 1st one goes on my M3. And I never (can't?) do big drops.

[spookymilk]

Was it a Swinger 6-Way?

You should've checked to see if you blew the compression adjustment pins out. I know of several cases where if you dialled them too far out, they'd blow out.

[How]

it's really dusty here and there is a lot of big air (bigger than the shore) I personally have seen the destruction of many 5ths and Manitous, but no one has has a single problem with an Avy. Not saying they are bad shocks [The SPV ones], but from what i've seen they have some reliablility issues. don't actually know anyone who hasn't had problems with theirs actually... maybe it's just the US ones lol, I do know that if anything can survive Whistler than it probably won't break though :agree: wonder what the deal is? How many versions of those shocks have they done since the beginning?

[spookymilk]

it's really dusty here and there is a lot of big air (bigger than the shore) I personally have seen the destruction of many 5ths and Manitous, but no one has has a single problem with an Avy. Not saying they are bad shocks [The SPV ones], but from what i've seen they have some reliablility issues. don't actually know anyone who hasn't had problems with theirs actually... maybe it's just the US ones lol, I do know that if anything can survive Whistler than it probably won't break though :agree: wonder what the deal is? How many versions of those shocks have they done since the beginning?

If you consider how few people have Avalanche's compared to Manitous's and 5th's, you'll see why the failing rate is higher, there's just more around, so more are gonna fail. And to boot, Avalanche's are hand-assembled and tuned specifically for a certain rider and come at a price premium, you should expect that kind of reliability.

[Wayne P]

I wouldn't put up reliability of a Fox shock (new or old) up against a 5th Element, or even a Swinger for that matter.

[sAFETY]

I wouldn't put up reliability of a Fox shock (new or old) up against a 5th Element, or even a Swinger for that matter.

True dat.

4 fox shocks blown, 0 swingers for me (and all racing and bigger drops were done on the swingers as well, over a much longer period of time).

All frames break, all shocks blow up, and everybody hurts. sometimes......

[switch]

How many people blow up their shocks because they have the compression cranked up, or leave the lockout on?

If they shocks had no adjustments or gadgets, they'd blow up less.

[seismic]

Get an Avy ! They hold up for sure !

[FlipFantasia]

Get an Avy ! They hold up for sure !
matt's run avy's since way back on his old super 8!

[funkendrenchman]

If you consider how few people have Avalanche's compared to Manitous's and 5th's, you'll see why the failing rate is higher, there's just more around, so more are gonna fail. And to boot, Avalanche's are hand-assembled and tuned specifically for a certain rider and come at a price premium, you should expect that kind of reliability.

A failing rate doesnt depend on the number being used.

[mattj]

matt's run avy's since way back on his old super 8!


Actually I never had one on my Super8. My first and only was on the Scream. Terry had the Avy-equipped Super8 and that was my introduction to the product...

Ummm, just to go back and answer/address some of the questions and comments, my shock was a 4-way Swinger. I don't think those have any compression knobs that can blow off.

Jay I assume you didn't mean me but just to clarify I never said Avalanche is the ONLY way to go. I am however a firm believer that it is the best product available right now. Fox DHX 5.0 being the next best from my experience.


[begin RANT]

I am personally not a fan of products that you have to fart around with before they become good. Make them right and then sell it to me. I have had 2 King hubs and they pissed me off to no ends because of the constant need to re-adjust. WTF? I don't buy a $400 hub (luckily I never paid nearly that otherwise I would have had a stroke) so I have to have it in the bike shop twice a month getting adjusted (or I can go and spend another $600 on the proper tool to do it myself). Same thing with this shock. So they make it work poorly, assuming that 90% of riders will never have the problem because they don't push the thing past it's poor limits. The other 10% they are willing to warranty the product and make it work properly. This is a great business plan as they can mass-produce a sub-standard product and only make a small percentage of the shocks work the way they should (and this only after they have inconvenienced the riders with down time). But of course then they play the "you're the second owner so no warranty" card and I'm hooped. Reminds me of Fox Vanilla RCs. Those things would blow up within the first week of riding hard, then you get them rebuilt (Todd, remember Jon M.'s work on the Fox shocks? That was good stuff), and only then will they work the way you expect... It's a brilliant way to market the product, but only if everyone is doing it and the consumer has no choice.

So it's gonna be a long long LONG time before you see a Manitou or King (exception - headsets) product on my rides. I'll stick with companies that build their products right and where explosions are extraordinary, not a "coming of age" to the way the product is expected to perform...

[end RANT]


-m

[Dave99]

[begin RANT]

I am personally not a fan of products that you have to fart around with before they become good. Make them right and then sell it to me. I have had 2 King hubs and they pissed me off to no ends because of the constant need to re-adjust. WTF? I don't buy a $400 hub (luckily I never paid nearly that otherwise I would have had a stroke) so I have to have it in the bike shop twice a month getting adjusted (or I can go and spend another $600 on the proper tool to do it myself). Same thing with this shock. So they make it work poorly, assuming that 90% of riders will never have the problem because they don't push the thing past it's poor limits. The other 10% they are willing to warranty the product and make it work properly. This is a great business plan as they can mass-produce a sub-standard product and only make a small percentage of the shocks work the way they should (and this only after they have inconvenienced the riders with down time). But of course then they play the "you're the second owner so no warranty" card and I'm hooped. Reminds me of Fox Vanilla RCs. Those things would blow up within the first week of riding hard, then you get them rebuilt (Todd, remember Jon M.'s work on the Fox shocks? That was good stuff), and only then will they work the way you expect... It's a brilliant way to market the product, but only if everyone is doing it and the consumer has no choice.

So it's gonna be a long long LONG time before you see a Manitou or King (exception - headsets) product on my rides. I'll stick with companies that build their products right and where explosions are extraordinary, not a "coming of age" to the way the product is expected to perform...

[end RANT]


-m

Hey I feel your angst and I don't mean to downplay your disappointment. But I think some people are concerned that there's too much generalizing about entire product lines and models based on small sample sizes of 1 or 2 experiences. Even a defect rate of 1% means there will be hundreds of failures when hundreds of thousands of units are manufactured, especially during the first production run while reliability data is still fresh. It's not a simple task to get 100% of all shocks to work when there are a hundred components each with their own tolerances that combine into an assembly.

Anyway, I also hate it when my stuff breaks but if the company follows up with strong customer support and fast return time then maybe you ought to chaulk it up to simple bad luck. My experience with Manitou has been very positive in this regard. Running a custom-valved Slider Plus fork and a 4-way Swinger on a Big Hit.

[mattj]

^yeah you're absolutely right. I've had good experience w/ Manitou as well and have been lusting for a 4-way or 6-way for over a year now (which probably adds to my sourness over this experience). That's also why I put in the very obvious rant disclaimer, please take it with a grain of salt as what it is - just mindless generalizing complaining...


-m

[JSinclair]

Matt, With your riding style and the size of stuff that you hit, you shoul dbe on a 6 way for sure.

having the ability to change your high speed compression would be a must for you.

I have no porblems with Avalanche at all. they make great product. problem is that you cannot but it as standard equipment.

So, If I were to buy a shock (Any newer platform) and spend $200 on having it custom valved for me, I would still be way ahead of having to go out and buy a 500-800 Avalanche on top of my stock shock.

If you have the bones to get an Avy, great. But don't generalize that Manitou or FOX or 5th are shit product.

Ii would like to see what the quality of Avalanche would be if they were doing hundreads of thousands of OEM bikes...would their product be as flawless? would there not be issues with manufacturing? I have a feeleing that they would fall into the same mass production issues as everyone else.

Custom stuff will always be better made, but will also be more expensive and aftermarket.

[FlipFantasia]

Actually I never had one on my Super8. My first and only was on the Scream. Terry had the Avy-equipped Super8 and that was my introduction to the product...

(Todd, remember Jon M.'s work on the Fox shocks? That was good stuff),

-m
crap, my bad on the avy! :) I do remember mutiger's work, top notch, in fact, since I got my vanilla rc rebuilt by him two summers ago it's been stellar, seriously good....

[Universe]

Matt, With your riding style and the size of stuff that you hit, you shoul dbe on a 6 way for sure.

having the ability to change your high speed compression would be a must for you.

I have no porblems with Avalanche at all. they make great product. problem is that you cannot but it as standard equipment.

So, If I were to buy a shock (Any newer platform) and spend $200 on having it custom valved for me, I would still be way ahead of having to go out and buy a 500-800 Avalanche on top of my stock shock.

If you have the bones to get an Avy, great. But don't generalize that Manitou or FOX or 5th are shit product.

Ii would like to see what the quality of Avalanche would be if they were doing hundreads of thousands of OEM bikes...would their product be as flawless? would there not be issues with manufacturing? I have a feeleing that they would fall into the same mass production issues as everyone else.

Custom stuff will always be better made, but will also be more expensive and aftermarket.

Avalanches are flawed like any shock. Bottom them out and the cap bends and it starts leaking oil. Not a big deal at all, but shows that nothing is perfect. I've seen snapped and blown ones too. I'm not against the product mind you as I've owned one in the past. On the Super 8 it was a must, but for the Demo its Swinger 6 all the way.

[mattj]

Thanks a lot for all the feedback. I wanted to make my bike different and I remember loving my last Avalanche shock plus this was the fastest way to get riding again. I went with the Avy. Major thanks to Craig for getting me set up in about 24 hours.

Here's a couple of pics of my bike. Sorry we lost our camera so these are cell phone pics...


-m

[seismic]

Avalanches are flawed like any shock. Bottom them out and the cap bends and it starts leaking oil. Not a big deal at all, but shows that nothing is perfect. I've seen snapped and blown ones too. I'm not against the product mind you as I've owned one in the past. On the Super 8 it was a must, but for the Demo its Swinger 6 all the way.

I do not know what you have been doing to your Avy, but under normal conditions it does NOT bend when bottoming !!!!! You say you have seen snapped and blown Avys too......but I am going to question that these shocks have been in for service regularly. I am sorry, but I have seen a lot of abuse and never a broken away, - of course it is possible, - but do not compare it to a Manitou, - they s#ck compared to an Avy (IMO)

[Universe]

I do not know what you have been doing to your Avy, but under normal conditions it does NOT bend when bottoming !!!!! You say you have seen snapped and blown Avys too......but I am going to question that these shocks have been in for service regularly. I am sorry, but I have seen a lot of abuse and never a broken away, - of course it is possible, - but do not compare it to a Manitou, - they s#ck compared to an Avy (IMO)

Well you sure told me. I'll sell my Swinger RIGHT AWAY so I can be 'sick' like the rest of the defensive Avalanche owners (note, this does not mean all of you).

[How]

That Demo9 is sick, tell us how it rides once you get to rip it up :) i've never seen one with an avy.

[seismic]

Well you sure told me. I'll sell my Swinger RIGHT AWAY so I can be 'sick' like the rest of the defensive Avalanche owners (note, this does not mean all of you).


Good idea :agree:

[oryx_ryder]

Wow, best looking demo9 I've ever seen. If it handles as good as it looks, you sure are set for an awesome bike.

[FlipFantasia]

very sick in person too....super plush, so nice......

[mzx]

crap, my bad on the avy! :) I do remember mutiger's work, top notch, in fact, since I got my vanilla rc rebuilt by him two summers ago it's been stellar, seriously good....

Isn't that funny - RCs work so-so out of the box, get blown soon and then perform great after a good rebuild - my case...