MICHELLE DUMARESQ wins Deer Valley NORBA

[jonny.zee]

1st in DH, 4th in dual slalomn. Interesting.

http://www.norbanationals.com/results/deer2005/

[DaveM]

Let the contraversy begin, or should I say continue, or rather escalate.

Congrats, she's worked hard for it.

[corey@nsmb.com]

Nice work Michelle! Rad!

[Banshee Beast]

I really hope we don't bring up all this shit again. It's beat. Way to go Michelle!! Hopefully there's many more to come :-)

[wallyjames]

Congrats Michelle, it's been a long time coming.

[R.kelly]

*edited*

couch

[Danny K]

Lordy.

[derwood]

Good job Michelle!

[R.kelly]

good for her , shes prolly way faster than me

[scottvelez]

prolly? you have to be kidding. she's faster than most of us.

[stillgoing]

Wow! Look at all the censorship. I wonder if the edited comments were reasonably stated opinions that just happen to disagree with the mod, or were they really that malicious?

People are still allowed to express opinions, aren't they?

[scottvelez]

Wow! Look at all the censorship. I wonder if the edited comments were reasonably stated opinions that just happen to disagree with the mod
Based on previous posts I've read in these forums the last few years, I'm betting they weren't "reasonably stated opinions".
But that's my opinion :agree:

[LeeLau]

Nice work michelle. Congrats

[Putty]

this is a private forum, and free speech does not exist on these types of boards. anyone that claims otherwise is fooling you or themselves.

any mod can delete, alter or lock anything they deem agains the standards.

its a great way to channel discussions and filter the consesus of the group.

good times.

[Hip Hop!]

good for ___ , ___'s prolly way faster than me

--*/-*/-*-*/-/-*/-/-/-/+

[corey@nsmb.com]

You guys blow me away sometimes.

Give us a little credit.

Respectful comments do not get deleted. Maturely stated opinions are great, but they are few and far between on this particular topic.

If you chose to call our refusing to host opinions that are worded as though they come from the gutter censorship, so be it. We'll stick to calling it class.


And if it means that much to you, share your opinion in an adult oriented manner, and it won't get nuked. Nobody is asking you to agree. Nobody is asking you to "conform" (as cool of a song it might make, it isn't the case), so instead of wasting yor time pretending you are fighting the power, why don't you recognize there is no "power" that you are up against. Be respectful and everything is fine, just like any other topic.

[stuart@nsmb.com]

this is a private forum, and free speech does not exist on these types of boards. anyone that claims otherwise is fooling you or themselves.

any mod can delete, alter or lock anything they deem agains the standards.

its a great way to channel discussions and filter the consesus of the group.

good times.

So you're suggesting that we just close our eyes to blatant racism, homophobia, intimidation, abuse, and staggering ignorance? Sorry, but that's not going to happen.

There are standards for a reason, and they're not applied wantonly or randomly - contrary to what you or other people may think.

As far as channelling discussions and filtering the consensus of the group go, Agent Mulder, you're off the mark with that one. We are all working to create a (relatively) positive environment where people can talk about this sport that we all enjoy, without being afraid, intimidated, ridiculed, or harassed.

It's too bad that you feel stifled here on the boards, but we're not about to change the way we're moderating any time soon.

Stuart

[dirty deeds]

wantonly

I love that word.

[R.kelly]

i dotn care if u delete my posts, but 1 time i made a thread about how much i liked oreo cookies and clay deleted it bcuz he thought it was stupid.

so basically we are not allowed to disagree with her racing in female cat on tehse forums ?? is that how it works ?

[Danny K]

The way I see it, I just discount her results. Not trying to belittle her or her lifestyle choice, just IMHO its unfair to the rest of the womens field. She definitly has some advantages, though I don't feel they are as signifigant as some would believe. No problem with her racing in the female category, she is defnitly a she and should be treated as such.

[corey@nsmb.com]

so basically we are not allowed to disagree with her racing in female cat on tehse forums ?? is that how it works ?

You show me where we said that. In fact, where anyone even suggested that.

We are asking you to please share your opinion respectfully.

[Hip Hop!]

We are asking you to please share your opinion respectfully.

what if your opinion was rascist or homophobe or something else of the sort?

[ghostrider]

you guys are killing me here....lets all play nice, please?

Has anyone read the article on Michelle in last month's BIKE magazine? I'm paraphrasing here, but she went through going from 6'2" to 5"9 and dropping lots of weight as well as her back having to realign itself over a period of many months...Astoundingly painful i'll wager!! All this to just win races?

Well done, Michelle!! That's great news!

[corey@nsmb.com]

what if your opinion was rascist or homophobe or something else of the sort?


Is that really something you want to be bringing attention to?

Sharing racist and homophobic opinions are something we chose not to tolerate. One of the beauties of running your own business is that you can make these sorts of decisions for yourself.

I am sure there are many websites that host racist and homophobic discussions and opinions, but we made the conscious decision to be better than that.

[Putty]

Ok Sculley, but please tell me, which part of my statement is incorrect.

I am not defending bigotry and homophobia, I am just stating the rules in which we play when we chooose to post here.

I don't feel stiffled on the boards, i just play within the rules and comment what I see.

Feel free to delete my post if its not within the NSMB gudelines.

Good times.

I don't agree with Michelle racing as a woman. you gonna ban me for that?



So you're suggesting that we just close our eyes to blatant racism, homophobia, intimidation, abuse, and staggering ignorance? Sorry, but that's not going to happen.

There are standards for a reason, and they're not applied wantonly or randomly - contrary to what you or other people may think.

As far as channelling discussions and filtering the consensus of the group go, Agent Mulder, you're off the mark with that one. We are all working to create a (relatively) positive environment where people can talk about this sport that we all enjoy, without being afraid, intimidated, ridiculed, or harassed.

It's too bad that you feel stifled here on the boards, but we're not about to change the way we're moderating any time soon.

Stuart

[corey@nsmb.com]

You bored Putty?

Why are you digging so hard for an argument?

[Uncle Duke]

Has anyone read the article on Michelle in last month's BIKE magazine? I'm paraphrasing here, but she went through going from 6'2" to 5"9[/B]


is this true?

[skifreak]

Has anyone assessed her strength before vs after and how her muscle strength, pelvic shape, bone structure etc, plays a role in her performance ability...

it's just that if Michelle who still has a male shaped pelvis has a leverage advantage or other strength advantage over an equal sized female pelvis, then for her to race for money and compete against other females is improper...

Otherwise - if it can be shown that the difference is negiligble due to the surgical changes she had, there is nothing that can be argued.

[Johnie P]

Not that interesting it was a pretty weak Field of riders. Interesting is Adrienne Miller winning the Nationals. She beat Schroeter by more than 4 sec. Way to go Miller.

[Putty]

not bored, not trying to start an argument, just stating my opinion on how internet forums work and transgendered athletes. thank you.

[jonny.zee]

Not that interesting it was a pretty weak Field of riders. Interesting is Adrienne Miller winning the Nationals. She beat Schroeter by more than 4 sec. Way to go Miller.

Some big names (Pruitt and Lawyer) were in there. A win's a win!

BTW - Is this her first NORBA win? I think she said in the Bike interview that one of her goals was to win a UCI DH event.

[schoenrock]

i'm gonna have to side with the catholic church on this one

[Grimace]

man vs women = grown man taking candy from baby

[Hack On Wheels]

schnrk, im curious as to what you mean by that, why would the catholic church take a side in this?

[Ninja]

Has anyone assessed her strength before vs after and how her muscle strength, pelvic shape, bone structure etc, plays a role in her performance ability...

it's just that if Michelle who still has a male shaped pelvis has a leverage advantage or other strength advantage over an equal sized female pelvis, then for her to race for money and compete against other females is improper...

Otherwise - if it can be shown that the difference is negiligble due to the surgical changes she had, there is nothing that can be argued.Spoken from a pure scientific point of view, Congrats.
Now "If" Michelle had done this, right from the start, their would be no doubt. Until then..... NO SALE

[R.kelly]

schnrk, im curious as to what you mean by that, why would the catholic church take a side in this?
im going to go out on a limb here and through out the possibillity that the church would be in favour of leaving a male body in its orgiional god given state and not morphing it into something that neither resembles that of a man or woman.

if michael/michelle was so serious about her need to race, why woudlnt she bite the bullet and race in male catgory or not race at all. anyone who tries to tell me that she doesnt have any physical advantage over the other women has to be crazy.

the fact that she can get away with this ,is rediculous. i understand she didnt become transgendered for the advantage but she should have taken the responsibility to understand that by undergoing this surgery it would effect everything in her life, including her love for racing.

i wonder how good she feels after this win

[Johnie P]

A win is a win you are right but i could show up to a Norba and win if there was no one to race. Pruitt hurt her hand in practice and April is retired and just rides for fun now. Bottom line not that interesting.

[gearwh0re]

is this the transgendered rider?

if so, it is a bloody shame.

if you think it is a good thing, then i assume you disagree with having separate mens and womens classes.

if you agree with separate racing classes and applaud his/her win, you really need to fiqure out exactly what your opinion is.

i have no problem with this person changing from man to woman (as as close as science will allow him) this post is not about ignorance/hate/fear - it is about what is right in competition.

maybe i should go into women's boxing and become champion?!?!?!?!?

[Hack On Wheels]

I'm sorry, but wasnt the decision made for michelle (possibly incorrectly?) to be michael after she was born? Am I way off base on this?

By the way, am I the only one who feels quite odd discussing such a personal thing about someone in a "public" setting like this?

[patrolskid]

hey nvloc , when we had this discussion a while back , i posed that question directly to MD : if you had to make a choice , would you compete in the mens category , or not race at all ?
personally ( not that it matters one whit ) , i was hoping to hear that MD loves racing so much she would race in whatever category was deemed appropriate , however her response ( which i expected , accept and respect ) was that MD completely and totally sees herself ( duh ! ) as female , and to compete in the mens' categories would be to deny her own reality . . . .

[Hip Hop!]

A win's a win!

if you raced a bunch of mentaly/physically challenged kids and beat them, would that still be considered a win?

pretty much what's going on here, someone has a much larger advantage than every else in his/her catagory.

[the flying moose]

maybe i should go into women's boxing and become champion?!?!?!?!?

i can see the headlines now. chubby, pasty white guy gets his ass handed to him by 97lb woman in boxing match.

[R.kelly]

so she needs to accept the fact that she ISNT a "Female" but transgendered (i would love to see anyone argue this), and for the sake of competition bow down or race in the mens category.

i dont understand how much support she has ? im sure she is a nice person? but lets get serious. this is competition.

[Neo]

*makes popcorn*


btw, props to michelle. :)

[R.kelly]

i think this whole arguement coms down to the lack of responsibility she has accepted by undergoing this surgery.

no one is saying she did it to win races, but she should understand the consequences and that she is not a female nor a male.

[gearwh0re]

someone else said it best, it would be like an able bodied person competing in the special olympics.

not saying women are handicapped compared to men, not at all, just that physcially we are different , hence the 2 classes.

michelle, good on ya for making the decision to be more woman than you were, i am sure it has been tough on many levels

no props from me on the win though. shame on you.

[Toshi]

Spoken from a pure scientific point of view, Congrats.
Now "If" Michelle had done this, right from the start, their would be no doubt. Until then..... NO SALE
that's actually a weak argument. "natural" females have a wide variety of builds, including variations of the pelvis. not all are built as breeders :idea:

[Grimace]

they should have an outlaw catagory where drug users and sex changers can race in harmony, id pay money to see that

[Greenspringer]

I'm trying out for the National DH Special Olympic Team. Anyone of us that enters must be mentally or physically challenged. Somedays I wake up and feel like a normal person but then I look down and see that I have three legs. Other mornings I feel like a woman trapped in a man's body. It's not that I'm uncomfortable with who I am or how I look, I just love riding and racing.
If I won the race instead of Michelle would my win be disputed??

I don't understand why people are so concerned about other people's lives.Come on. 4 pages on the subject and 3 1/2 of them are bitching about whether the win is deserved or not. Any win is earned through, hard work, dedication,and motivation. Give credit where credit is due whether there's a weiner involved or not.

Cheers to michelle for the win and for discovering who she really is and doing whatever it takes to be comfortable with herself.
Not a lot of people get to the point of actually knowing themselves, their trueselves, and are not afraid to show their true colors.

Happy trails.
T

[couch@nsmb.com]

Are you are wondering if Michelle should be racing in the woman's category? Well it seems that the governing bodies, who are much more in touch with the sport on ALL levels, have decided "yes". That is their job - not yours. Do some research, this is an extremely complicated subject where, just thinking you know the answer because it makes sense to you, does NOT apply.

People that have done the science and understand the laws and rules surrounding the subject have decided that Michelle can and will race as a woman.

Once you have done the reasearch to back your opinions (feel free to post it here), I would be willing to listen to you, until then...go ride your bike.

Couch


Way to go Michelle!

[Johnie P]

Can someone kill this. I think it has gotten to personal and should be axed.If you realy care about this subject do some research on transgenders and sport and bring it to the board. Leave Michelle out of it and make it more General. I like Michelle outside of racing, She is a good person so leave it alone.On the Norba subject, They are no longer UCI sanctioned. That means you can win every Norba and be ranked behind someone who came last at every Canada cup. And that is why there was such a weak feild. Its to bad downhill racing is losing support but maybe it is cause we bitch more than we train. Lets step up and find out how we can help the sport. I know i am all over the place here but i love racing and i will race anyone anywhere as long as they have a good attitude.

[RITALIN]

i enjoyed reading about her in bike mag...i think its true about she can call back on experiences from a mans perspective and use them as a woman...what people dotn agree that men takle harder more challenging lines for the faster time then women.
if vijay singh changed sex and went and dethroned annika sorenstam would that be fair?
i dont thinks so?

also
we dont see guys go and paly in womens leagues that often do we?
yes there have been females to enter alll male leagues
like that hockey goalie who nobody remembers but she palyed for the lightning and michelle wie the 16 year old golfer who wnats to paly pga not lpga whens she isnt even pro yet?
thsi controversy wioll never end

[Grimace]

Are you are wondering if Michelle should be racing in the woman's category? Well it seems that the governing bodies, who are much more in touch with the sport on ALL levels, have decided "yes". That is their job - not yours. Do some research, this is an extremely complicated subject where, just thinking you know the answer because it makes sense to you, does NOT apply.

People that have done the science and understand the laws and rules surrounding the subject have decided that Michelle can and will race as a woman.

Once you have done the reasearch to back your opinions (feel free to post it here), I would be willing to listen to you, until then...go ride your bike.

Couch


Way to go Michelle!


are you saying this as her agent or as a poster on nsmb

[couch@nsmb.com]

are you saying this as her agent or as a poster on nsmb

Does it matter? Point out the errors in my logic, what my relationship with Michelle is, is moot.

[gearwh0re]

couch, does every expert agree that she should race as a woman?

how does the women's racing community feel?

anyone who says/thinks that michelle doesn't have an unfair advantage being born a man is being willfully blind, ignorant, or just plain deceptive.

btw, jonny, i don't see anyone attacking michelle personally, save maybe his/her decision to bike in womens category...haven't read too deep though...uif there is the mods should axe those posts.

[big ben]

for her to race in the men's catagory would completely contradict her sex-change in the first place. the whole purpose of the operation is to become a woman, to race in the male catagory would be going in the opposite direction of her ultimate goal. whether or not you want her to race as a female, to expect her to be willing to race as a man is ludicrous as it nullifies the purpose of her surgery and lifestyle choice.

[couch@nsmb.com]

couch, does every expert agree that she should race as a woman?



No of course not but the decision makers have.

how does the women's racing community feel?

My understanding is that the community is divided but in this situation they don't make the decisions

[Tom]

I agree...leave it up to the governing bodies to determine which category a racer should enter.

[Hip Hop!]

Are you are wondering if Michelle should be racing in the woman's category? Well it seems that the governing bodies, who are much more in touch with the sport on ALL levels, have decided "yes". That is their job - not yours. Do some research, this is an extremely complicated subject where, just thinking you know the answer because it makes sense to you, does NOT apply.

People that have done the science and understand the laws and rules surrounding the subject have decided that Michelle can and will race as a woman.

Once you have done the reasearch to back your opinions (feel free to post it here), I would be willing to listen to you, until then...go ride your bike.

Couch


Way to go Michelle!

people are giving their opinions just like corey asked them to.

[RITALIN]

Anti Trail Nazi has been dethroned as NSMB spelling champion!

Wow...In thirteen(13) lines of my typing you came up with twelve(12) "typing" mistakes not spelling mistakes...I do not see any words spelled incorrectly so why don't you take your keyboard, shine it up real nice, and stick it up your ass.
Have a nice day!
-RIT

[gearwh0re]

No of course not but the decision makers have.



My understanding is that the community is divided but in this situation they don't make the decisions
my point there is that you made it sound as if , since the decision had been made it was now scientific fact and us minions should shuddup unless we have evidence backing our feelings.

i have NO evidence that a man has an advantage over women in a MTB race, other than the fact that there are different categories suggesting they do

i also have no evidence handy that gravity exists, but i am fairly certain if i jumped off my 16th floor balcony it would be the last thing i ever did

and does the community not having a say in decisions make them any less valid? if ernie got mountain biking banned on fromme would that then be correct because it was the decision?

interesting topic/debate/discussion, but in my mind the advantages and unfairness of the situation are about as clear cut as they can ever be

[Trini-dad72]

*sigh* Either way... Good Job Michelle!

[Mr Ripper]

So you're suggesting that we just close our eyes to blatant racism, homophobia, intimidation, abuse, and staggering ignorance? Sorry, but that's not going to happen.

There are standards for a reason, and they're not applied wantonly or randomly - contrary to what you or other people may think.

As far as channelling discussions and filtering the consensus of the group go, Agent Mulder, you're off the mark with that one. We are all working to create a (relatively) positive environment where people can talk about this sport that we all enjoy, without being afraid, intimidated, ridiculed, or harassed.

It's too bad that you feel stifled here on the boards, but we're not about to change the way we're moderating any time soon.

Stuart


I hope you can see where Putty is coming from, because I was feeling the same way as I saw all the edited posts.

[biopace]

Just thought I'd interject a few points:

1. From what I heard, one major reason that transgendered athletes presence in their new category was allowed was that the governing bodies were concerned about possible lawsuits and human rights complaints if they did not allow it.

2. Are you are wondering if Michelle should be racing in the woman's category? Well it seems that the governing bodies, who are much more in touch with the sport on ALL levels, have decided "yes". That is their job - not yours.

That's a great nugget. So now we're giving credence to the UCI and NORBA's decision making abilities? Have you been paying attention to the sport of cycling in the past couple of decades?

3. In the 1976 Olympics (if I remember correctly) the East German women's teams were given a form of testosterone to make them perform better. Questions were raised about their bulging muscles and strangely low voices. This was judged to be horribly unfair, and was a huge scandal. (I know the comparison isn't precise - and some pc individuals will probably have a heart attack - but in the interest of discussion, there it is.)

[Johnie P]

Its funny that in a race forem you get 5 pages on michelle winning a norba beating a bunch of nobodys, but you get no response to Danika taking out some big names to place 6 th at a world cup. I guess thats why there is no funding for DH in canada, nobody cares unless you change genders.

[derwood]

Its funny that in a race forem you get 5 pages on michelle winning a norba beating a bunch of nobodys, but you get no response to Danika taking out some big names to place 6 th at a world cup. I guess thats why there is no funding for DH in canada, nobody cares unless you change genders.
this is 5 pages of comments from the NSMB panel on ethics in sport and human sexuality commission...it has little to do with a local rider winning a race.

Give Danika's thread a few days for a couple of responses.

Very few people on this board actually care about racing,but most have all the answers when it comes to how a person should choose to live their life....Bear in mind that the CCA,UCI and Norba rely on the advice of PROFESSIONALS to guide them in their choices regarding the ethics in racing...not BB's full of know it alls.

For a bunch of people who come off as VERY liberal in the NBR....many of you sure are closed minded when it comes to this topic....one that is absolutely none of yours or my business.

Once again...congrats Michelle

[Neo]

You bored Putty?

Why are you digging so hard for an argument?

hahahaa lovin' the mod action with the newb sig skills.

[biopace]

Originally posted by derwood
Very few people on this board actually care about racing,but most have all the answers when it comes to how a person should choose to live their life....Bear in mind that the CCA,UCI and Norba rely on the advice of PROFESSIONALS to guide them in their choices regarding the ethics in racing...not BB's full of know it alls.

For a bunch of people who come off as VERY liberal in the NBR....many of you sure are closed minded when it comes to this topic....one that is absolutely none of yours or my business.

I think maybe you are misunderstanding the discussion going on here. This isn't about people switching genders, or about "how a person should choose to live their life." It's about which category a transgendered person should race in. It's about whether or not it is fair for a transgendered person to race in their new gender category.

Personally, I think the governing bodies for sport are going to need to address this issue in a more complete way - ie if transgendered persons are going to be allowed to switch gender categories, what are the qualifications needed to make that shift? What happens when someone goes through the surgery, but not the hormone restructuring? Not agreeing or disagreeing here, just saying that Sport needs to figure this out.

But I gotta say: derwood, your last comment there makes it sound like you are pushing some politically correct witch hunt or something. Or are only people who disagree with you "closeminded?"

[chelle]

Hi Everyone

Thanks for all the kind words. I have worked for a long time to acheive a win like this and it does feel really really good.

I'm trying not to get into this debate again but it hurts to read some of the misinformed comments on here. Please do some research, take a few minutes out of your day and google the subject if you care so much. Athlete's with a trans history are now allowed into the olympics so pretty soon the torch will be passed.

I saw a quote from Lance Armstrong and I think it fits here as well, "everyone wants to know what I'm on, I'm on my bike for 6 hours a day, what are you on?" I did a race today in Crested Butte and won. I was asked by a reporter what was the key to my win? 27 years of riding bikes was my answer.

A couple of other things: Norba is UCI sanctioned, April Lawer is not retired and if Vijay Singh wants to change his sex then I say good for her! Vijay will still have to wait 2 years before competing again, never be able to strike the ball as far again and won't be able to just duck behind a tree and releive himself quite like before.

Thanks Couch, miss ya

[JSinclair]

Bottom Line is that Michelle is racing within the rules as posted by the authority of the sport in which she competes.

These are the same rules that everybody competes under.

If you are unhappy with the rules, take it up with the governing body, don't take it up with the athlete playing "fair" by the standards of the sport.

The UCI, the Government and the IOC as well have deemed it "Fair" for her to be categorized as a girl. You may not like it, but blaming Michelle for something that she is allowed to do seems absurd.

Some people here have competed at a level of world class competition, and I am sure they will tell you that if you think sport is not political, you are ignorant.

Sport at the highest level is just as political and dirty as any government scandal. Drugs and doping have been a Major part of road racing since the beginning of performance enhancing science.

Blaming Michelle is shortsighted and the easy way out for you haters. If you don;t like it get off your moral High ground asses and take it to the powers that make the rules to begin with.

Imagine if you were to say something like "He has an unfair advantage over me when we play basketball because he is 6'8" tall and I am only 5'10"." the rules don;t state that you have to be within a certain height...so is it unfair advantage or are you just playing within the rules of the sport? What if that scenario was to add man and woman...should I feel Descriminated against if it was a 6'8" woman that was dunking on my ass? As a man, would you kick her out of playing in a scrub league?

Michelle is not to blame, she si nothing but awesome. She is a great person and an amazing athlete. I cannot believe some of you have compare this to competing in the special olympics against handicapped people.

Sometimes I wonder about you folks.

Congrats Michelle ! i am now looking for your first UCI win.

[Johnie P]

I heard that Norba was not sanctioned this year, My bad if i am incorrect. Your right April is just toning it down a bit, but in my mind if you are not giving it 100% you are retired.

[derwood]

I think maybe you are misunderstanding the discussion going on here. This isn't about people switching genders, or about "how a person should choose to live their life." It's about which category a transgendered person should race in. It's about whether or not it is fair for a transgendered person to race in their new gender category.

Personally, I think the governing bodies for sport are going to need to address this issue in a more complete way - ie if transgendered persons are going to be allowed to switch gender categories, what are the qualifications needed to make that shift? What happens when someone goes through the surgery, but not the hormone restructuring? Not agreeing or disagreeing here, just saying that Sport needs to figure this out.

But I gotta say: derwood, your last comment there makes it sound like you are pushing some politically correct witch hunt or something. Or are only people who disagree with you "closeminded?"


You think IM politically correct???? probably the exact opposite.

Nobody here disagrees with me,as I have no public opinion of Michelles personal choices.....Nobody here has a right to say anything about a personal subject they know nothing about.....

Local RIDER wins race.

[Mr Ripper]

Its funny that in a race forem you get 5 pages on michelle winning a norba beating a bunch of nobodys, but you get no response to Danika taking out some big names to place 6 th at a world cup. I guess thats why there is no funding for DH in canada, nobody cares unless you change genders.
:woot: Congrats to Danika, and to Michelle, both have accomplished something wicked!

[patrolskid]

hey MD , welcome back into the fray . . . . takes guts to play in this sandbox



i was out for a long walk the other day ( been doing a lot of that lately ) doing some thinking , and it occurred to me that looking at the issue like :

first HE was a MAN , and now SHE is a WOMAN ,

is missing the point .


i'm guessing that at the point when MD first recognized the distinction ( in her mind , where it matters most ) , she accepted herself as a woman , and had to accept that she was born with the wrong body .

doesn't seem so hard to understand to me , but please MD , correct me if i'm way off . . .

[chelle]

hey Patrolskid, your pretty close and perhaps the long walks/ thinking thing works, maybe a few others here could use some of that. I believe that I have always been female, at least since we get old enough to realize that boys have outi's and girls have ini's. I had a birth defect and I had it repaired, simple as that.

What I don't agree with is some who say that "I support Michelle living her life as the woman that she is but it's not fair that she races against genny women". To me that is a contradiction, you can not grant one without the other. Who would say in our times that I don't mind that black skinned person living down the street but I'm not sure that person should be able to vote. I know there are still people in our society that think that way but the majority would find that attitude appaling. I think that in ten years time, what I have done will not be a big deal anymore but who knows. Thankfully our society is constantly changing and evolving as we figure things out.

Nice sandbox

Michelle

[patrolskid]

guess i haven't been wasting my time out there . . . .


pretty much what i figured . . . .


thanks for picking up your toys , as it were . . . .

[Greenspringer]

"I cannot believe some of you have compared this to competing in the special olympics against handicapped people." jsinclair.


My comment as refferred to above was ONLY TO POINT OUT HOW RIDICULOUS THIS WHOLE "CONTROVERSY" IS to some people.NOT to take a cheap shot at anyone.
Michelle deserves everything she has earned and worked for.
It's just friggin' lame that people have a problem with that.

Once again, way to go Michelle.

[corey@nsmb.com]

Its funny that in a race forem you get 5 pages on michelle winning a norba beating a bunch of nobodys, but you get no response to Danika taking out some big names to place 6 th at a world cup. I guess thats why there is no funding for DH in canada, nobody cares unless you change genders.

I think it shows that the majority of people responding are more interested in controversy than they are with actual racing. I think that is pretty shitty.

[AnTi-TrAiL_nAzI]

i look at it as simple as this, Michelle didnt get to where SHE is by sitting out the couch saying hmm maby ill race my bike today, she went out there and TRAINED like every other hard working professional athlete, nothing comes in a day, the contravercy of racing mens vs. racing womans, im shure she had to train just as hard as any man, out there riding every one trains just as hard some people win some dont, its all in how hard you train and how much expieriance you have, stop bitching about all of this,

Good win michelle, keep up the good work!

[drunken_duncan]

here i thought this thread was going to be about congratulating michelles win, not another dead horse beating.

congratulations on the win, keep it up.

[Alex Lag]

Bottom Line is that Michelle is racing within the rules as posted by the authority of the sport in which she competes

Very true, if the regulatory body of the cycling organization would consider that she wasn't within the same rules as any of the other competitors they would not have let her OR any body else that has gone through the same transgender change. It is great that she is living the way she decided to live HER own life and on top of that she is winning races in a sport that is very competitive and very hard to win.

But although some people is just up for the controversy, we are simply ignoring the fact that there is a clear advantage between her and the other racers. She is within the rules and she won and she has the metal to prove it, but what do you people think about those baseball players that used enhancing drugs while the MLB allowed it and HR records were broken, etc. and some 'clean' players were just acheving good results fair and square? Or when back in the 70's the Steelers used steroids and won 4 super bowls while the rest of the NFL players were playing without any 'advantage' and still making the playoffs? Do all those athletes deserve to be congratulated because they were 'within the rules' and won over clean compatitors?

An advantage is an advantage in DH or any other sport. And this is not about having a better bike, a brand new set of tires, trained harder, better nutrition, etc. It's about having an advantage, call it trangender operation, drugs, or whatever, nothing against Michelle or her courage of what she has faced to be herself, but alythough she raced within the rules she has certain advantage (i am not a doctor but i can tell the difference between a guy and a girl) hence two classes M and F.

I can only say that she deserves congratulations on the way she is living her own life and she is able to race bikes but I can't agree to congratulate her on her win.

Respectfully,

Alex

[gearwh0re]

Bottom Line is that Michelle is racing within the rules as posted by the authority of the sport in which she competes.

These are the same rules that everybody competes under.

If you are unhappy with the rules, take it up with the governing body, don't take it up with the athlete playing "fair" by the standards of the sport.

The UCI, the Government and the IOC as well have deemed it "Fair" for her to be categorized as a girl. You may not like it, but blaming Michelle for something that she is allowed to do seems absurd.

Some people here have competed at a level of world class competition, and I am sure they will tell you that if you think sport is not political, you are ignorant.

Sport at the highest level is just as political and dirty as any government scandal. Drugs and doping have been a Major part of road racing since the beginning of performance enhancing science.

Blaming Michelle is shortsighted and the easy way out for you haters. If you don;t like it get off your moral High ground asses and take it to the powers that make the rules to begin with.

Imagine if you were to say something like "He has an unfair advantage over me when we play basketball because he is 6'8" tall and I am only 5'10"." the rules don;t state that you have to be within a certain height...so is it unfair advantage or are you just playing within the rules of the sport? What if that scenario was to add man and woman...should I feel Descriminated against if it was a 6'8" woman that was dunking on my ass? As a man, would you kick her out of playing in a scrub league?

Michelle is not to blame, she si nothing but awesome. She is a great person and an amazing athlete. I cannot believe some of you have compare this to competing in the special olympics against handicapped people.

Sometimes I wonder about you folks.

Congrats Michelle ! i am now looking for your first UCI win.

jay , you bring up some interesting things, and i surely won't be stooping to your level and dismiss them as absurd.

you bring up that if a woman beat you at "mens" level, you wouldn't try to get her kicked out. thats swell and dandy, but has NO (ZERO) bearing on this issue.

the question is simple (this is not retorical, please feel free to answer - this is anyone of the "go michelle" crowd) DO YOU UNDERSTAND WHY THERE ARE SEPARATE MEN'S and WOMEN's CATEGORIES? DO YOU AGREE WITH THERE BEING THE SEPARATION AND WHY?

i am unhappy with the ruling, am i going to take it up with the ruling body? NO i am not. does that mean i have to shut up about it? No it doesn't.

as human's likely 90% of the stuff we have opinions on are issues we don't have a say in, thats how it works

if the ruling body reverses its decision tommorow and doesn't allow michelle to race in the womens cat anymore, you are free to post your feelings here as well, and of course you will. so leave the silly "take it up with the powers that be" argument for the preschoolers

i fault michelle for taking advatnage of the situation...this doesn't make me a "hater" i think personally michelle is a very brave person who has likely gone through more shit than i will ever know. i am not against michelle, i am for all the women who are unfairly disadvantaged (IMHO) by racing against someone who was born a man.

you bring up the basketball example. lets say there is a 6 foot and under league, but a judge rules that you cant discriminate based on height. still they call it under 6 but the rules don't actually disallow 6 and over - you wouldn't think it was unfair for shaq to play in that league? sure you would

seems that alot of people here know michelle and are letting that guide there decision making process. michelle being a great person, great rider, and dedicated to training HAVE NOTHING TO DO WITH THIS ISSUE

sometimes i wonder about your opinions jay

[bunny]

the question is simple (this is not retorical, please feel free to answer - this is anyone of the "go michelle" crowd) DO YOU UNDERSTAND WHY THERE ARE SEPARATE MEN'S and WOMEN's CATEGORIES? DO YOU AGREE WITH THERE BEING THE SEPARATION AND WHY?


i think everyone understands and agrees separate categories. and why. what some people aren't seeming to grasp is michelle is a woman. so she races in the women's category. so simple. that said the categories aren't perfect. should some weak little 5'4" guy get to race women's because most men are bigger/stronger giving them an advantage? i don't think so.

there is NEVER a level playing field for all competitors. i think horse racing is the only sport that comes close. IF she has an advantage over other women tough. they should suck it up and train harder. it's just like me crying that i have to play basketball with 6' amazon women. they clearly have an advantage of 6" over me. does that mean they should be disqualified?

way to go michelle!

[scottvelez]

there is NEVER a level playing field for all competitors
No kidding.
I'll never win if they keep letting the fast riders join my category :???:

[patrolskid]

i was gonna post this last night , but didn't . . . . so now i am


one of the great things about competitive sport are the lessons they teach you about life . . . . about respecting and accepting your fellow competitors , and about respecting and accepting that perhaps on any given day someone will be stronger or faster or smarter or better equipped than you . when you compete , you accept that challenge and use it to make yourself a better competitor ( person ) .
in this case , one of those fellow competitors had the misfortune to start out with the wrong body for herself . she doesn't treat it like an advantage ; it is just the way things are . . . . .

and bunny is right , the playing field is never perfectly level , and never will be . . . .





let's all remember , this is mountain bike racing , sport . we're not saving lives in africa , or making world peace , so let's keep it in perspective . . . .

[Uncle Duke]

you guys are STILL talking about this?

[biopace]

Dang. I'm finding myself agreeing with people I never thought I would. What's this board coming to when GW is the voice of reason?!?

As Bunny and Patrolskid have pointed out, this isn't about Michelle, or any other transgendered athlete, being a woman. She is a woman, and I don't think anyone here has a problem with that, or would have any reason to have a problem with that. The CCA's decision to allow her to compete in the women's class was based on the fact that she was a woman (both legally and in every other way), and there was no reason to exclude her from racing in the women's class. I think this is about her being a woman with an unfair advantage.

However, Bunny, I think what is meant by a level playing field is that no one has an unfair advantage. Yes, some people will be taller or stronger or faster than others. (which explains my continued failure to make the NBA draft.) But the bodies governing sport have decided that certain things constitute an unfair advantage. As far as cycling is concerned, EPO, blood doping and marijuana have all been declared illegal. Why? Because they were deemed to give the competitor an unfair advantage.

And so I bring up the following points:

1. Would we be discussing this at all if Michelle had finished mid pack?

2. Would we be discussing this like this if Anne-Caroline Chausson had decided to become male and after the hormones and surgery was now destroying the men's field?

3. What happens when a male decides to go the transgender route, but only goes halfway with the hormones, keeping more of the muscle mass and bone structure? (I don't know everything about the process, but after the 1976 East German swimmer's debacle, the question should be raised)

So how about this: explain how a transgendered athlete does not have an unfair advantage. But do it without telling me that it is not breaking any rules, or how great a person he or she is, or trying to make it a gender issue.

---------------
Duke, were you trying to add anything constructive to this conversation with that comment, or were you just trying to be condescending?

[stillgoing]

I really wasn’t going to post on this subject, but Biopace made a point that I think is very important.

“3. What happens when a male decides to go the transgender route, but only goes halfway with the hormones, keeping more of the muscle mass and bone structure?”

So, it’s my understanding that the ruling body decided to allow Michelle to race in the woman’s category because they figured that if the government via her birth certificate and drivers licence has declared her female, then they must too. Allegations have been made that they didn’t want to risk legal action.

Michelle feels it’s fair for her to race because with the full procedure and hormone treatments, she has lost most (or all) of her “male” physical advantage.

So, maybe that’s true, maybe that’s all fair. Any ONLY considering Michelle, maybe we shouldn’t object.

But. It’s not just about Michelle.

What criteria is used by the deciding body (agency, Gov, whatever) to declare a person female? What IF, as Biopace has mentioned, that the hormone treatments are not fully undertaken? I just don’t know what criteria is used to make the male/female determination, and I don’t think we should discuss the finer points of what must be a very private procedure.

I worry now about the precedent that has been set. Now that the door is open, it becomes fully possible that individuals with clear unfair advantage can compete in the female category.

I realise that much of my point is based on an assumption regarding how the male/female determination is made. If someone knows….

Regarding Michelle specifically: I’ve never met her, but I’m willing to bet that this change was not undertaken in order to win some races. But, before the operation he (at that time) would have had 2 big things important to him in his life: Gender correction and biking. I would have preferred if he had thought ahead and realized the precedent to be set and the possibly unfair advantage (debatable, obviously) that would affect his biking and then decided which of the two were more important. ie: Remain a man and carry on with his racing career, or become a woman, give up the racing and ride recreationally as do 99% of the rest of us. Instead Michelle has chosen to do both. Have her cake and eat it to, so to speak.

The precedent she has set is, in my mind, worrisome. I apologise in advance for this next comment. But personally, in my opinion only, I think she was a little selfish in this.

Mods: if that last sentence goes over the edge, then please edit the last two sentences out.

[biopace]

I think it may be a bit too much to expect Michelle to have pulled herself from competition over a possible unfair advantage.

I would have done the same thing in her place: raced my heart out until they told me I couldn't. It's not up to her to make the rules, just to play by them, which she has done. It's up to the CCA and UCI (and eventually IOC) to decide if this is to be allowed.

I found this while trying to read up on the subject a bit. (I can't vouch for the accuracy, but hey, throw in some scientific words and I'll believe just about anything. The source is rather biased, but the article is decent nonetheless.)

It's from an article titled:

Switching gears (includes a part of an interview with Michelle)

By Susan Reifer, Sports Illustrated Women

http://www.twentyclub.org/news/winter03.htm

As it happens, the International Olympic Committee recently abandoned its long-standing policy of gender-testing women athletes to verify their sex because scientists are so far unable to find one single biological indicator that proves in all cases that a woman is really a woman.

As many as one in 500 women do not have standard XX chromosomes. Women with complete androgen insensitivity syndrome, for example, have the XY chromosomes of men but the identities, bodies, external sexual organs (albeit infertile ones) and athletic prowess of women. Then there are the women with seemingly "normal" female bodies who have a mosaic chromosome pattern: XXY.

Women with congenital adrenal hyperplasia have a standard XX chromosome pattern but adrenal glands that produce an excessive amount of male hormones, which could give them a distinct athletic advantage. At the Summer Games in Atlanta in 1996 eight female athletes reportedly had this condition -- and were approved for competition.

"The idea of a natural woman is not a real category," says Suzanne Kessler, Ph.D., and author of two books on sex and gender. "These people who are saying they are 'natural women' have a naive view. What this issue forces us to grapple with is the question of what it means to have a natural advantage or disadvantage. And there are many reasons why someone could be advantaged. They could afford lessons. They could afford a better bike. My guess is if [Dumaresq] has an advantage it's because she was raised as a male. Being treated as a male, even if you never felt like one, leaves you with a higher level of confidence."

[seand]

Wow...In thirteen(13) lines of my typing you came up with twelve(12) "typing" mistakes not spelling mistakes...I do not see any words spelled incorrectly so why don't you take your keyboard, shine it up real nice, and stick it up your ass.
Have a nice day!
-RIT

hook...line...and sinker...


i enjoyed reading about her in bike mag...i think its true about she can call back on experiences from a mans perspective and use them as a woman...what people dotn agree that men takle harder more challenging lines for the faster time then women.
if vijay singh changed sex and went and dethroned annika sorenstam would that be fair?
i dont thinks so?

also
we dont see guys go and paly in womens leagues that often do we?
yes there have been females to enter alll male leagues
like that hockey goalie who nobody remembers but she palyed for the lightning and michelle wie the 16 year old golfer who wnats to paly pga not lpga whens she isnt even pro yet?
thsi controversy wioll never end


lookie at all them mis-spellings going on up there...weeee!

[JSinclair]

DO YOU UNDERSTAND WHY THERE ARE SEPARATE MEN'S and WOMEN's CATEGORIES? DO YOU AGREE WITH THERE BEING THE SEPARATION AND WHY?

i am unhappy with the ruling, am i going to take it up with the ruling body? NO i am not. does that mean i have to shut up about it? No it doesn't.

as human's likely 90% of the stuff we have opinions on are issues we don't have a say in, thats how it works

so leave the silly "take it up with the powers that be" argument for the preschoolers

sometimes i wonder about your opinions jay

Somtime I wonder about my opinions.

1.) I do understand why there are seperate Categories and believe in the distinction between the two. They are however seperated by RULES. What defines a Man as a Man? What defines a Woman as a Woman? These are the RULES defining the groups and sport.

To believe that all of this has been allowed because of Human rights would be naive. To think that the advantages and disadvantages have not been torn apart by doctors and phyiologists and gender scientists would also be naive.

Trust me when I say the government, the bodies of Sport and the IOC take all of this pretty seriously, they don't just say "Oh well, we don;t want to be sued, so I guess it's ok." If they thought for any reason athletes woudl have an unfair advantage, they would argue the validity of the allowance to compete.

2.) To be unhappy with a ruling and not send comments to the governing bodies makes you part of the majority of people that complain. You don't like something you have done very little research on, and you are too lazy (or don't really care enough) to try to make change. The ONLY way to make change is to go to the "Powers that be". This is not a PreSchoolers methedology, this is LIFE. You want change? you vote for officials you think best represent your beliefs and needs. If you really have any vested interest in the subject than you will contact the governing bodies. If as I suspect you are not that serious about all of this, than you have to accept the descisions made by such powers and take their rulings as finite.

To complain and do nothing about it, garners ZERO respect from me. If you don't like it change it, but don't sit around whining about it doing nothing.



I have competed at an IOC level. I have peed into cups. I have done all the necessary things to compete against the best in the world at what they do. Would I have been pissed if for some reason a woman were to have an unfair advantage over me in my sport? maybe. Would I have sat around doing nothing about it? no. What would I have done? Worked my ass off to minimize the so called advantage and figured a way to be more competitive.

Sport at a high level is not like your run of the mill weekend races. Technology, politics, science and money all play vital roles in high level sport. Finding ways to enhance performance within the rules of sport is a big money venture, done by all countries at high level.

If you raced (Competed) for a country with a big budget for training and technology, does that not give you an "Unfair" advantage? Do you not think that training facilities and programs affect performance? Do you nope think that currently there are thousands of people competing using technology to enhance performace (Doping or not)?

The rules of sport constantly change to match the current level of athlete and technology. IF the governing body deems it fair, than as an athlete you need to bust your ass to make up the difference. Thats the way it goes.

The good thing is that as an Athlete you have the drive and determination to get it done, not matter what the odds and things to overcome.

If you think there is such a big advantage to Michelles win, explain to me the length of time it has taken her to get her first win. Her bike skills have been on par with others for years. Explain to me why she does not just dominate the WC circuit? Explain to me why Women like AC Chausson have been more than 30 seconds ahead of her in competiton?

If Chausson (and a large number of other women) can beat Michelle, why can't others?

Michelle is a Woman, races as a Woman, lives as a Woman. She plays by the rules and has finaly got her first Norba win. Give her the respect she deserves and is due.

Well done Michelle. I hope as you do that someone else will grab the torch and run with it.

[gearwh0re]

Dang. I'm finding myself agreeing with people I never thought I would. What's this board coming to when GW is the voice of reason?!?



Thanks, i mean HEY!!!

i feel like i am taking crazy pills here. i have never seen such a case of skating around the issue (it seems alot of the michelle supporters are taking lessons from the bush spin doctors)

I mean people who have posted here 10 times have EACH post ended with. Way to go michelle , props to ya , good work girl!"

i enjoy a good mass debate, but hate it when it goes this way. Jay (i use you as an example only because you are most recent) goes into
a- those are the rules (as if the rules decide what is right and wrong)
b- michelle is an awesome person (about as valid a point in this thread as the fact that i am presently at work)
c- if you don't fight it to the highest powers you have no opinion (hogwash, i bet ya there are 1234553 things in jays life he is diagrees with and does nothign about - other than discuss it. shit thats what people do. ever been to a pub?)
d-michelle is a woman - bottom line (not only is this bottom line, it isn't even an issue her. she was born a man)
e- would we be discussing this if michelle finished in the middle? (yes and we discussed it before she races i believe)

crazy pills, everyone is taking em i tell ya

[Johnie P]

can i have some crazy pills my head hurts

[Putty]

the classfications of male vs female for the purpose of competition should be determined by genome.

xx- woman xy-man

i am aware there are cases of XXX or XXY etc, but for 95 percent of the pop the above would apply.

that is my only beef.

i am glad Michelle is happy with the choices she made, and power to her for doing so within the confines of the system. i have a problem with the system.

[ghostrider]

I would love to ride with Michelle...she can kick my ass anytime!

[APT]

This is quite a lengthy debate. Interestingly, in some other forums, 99% of the opinions are different from this forum and things that are said are not very nice. It is good that many people in this forum can be open minded and show their support. However, I hope they are being objective and not blindly giving their support because they either know the person personally or just because the person is one of the locals.

[corey@nsmb.com]

On this forum, 99% of the people who rage on about this don't race, have no contact with the race scene, and lead a life that is totally unaffected by race results and race related issues.

They are also not involved in the race scene to any degree, and probably don't give it a second thought until they see it pop up on the web and are bored and want something to talk about.

I don't mean that offensively, but it seems to be the truth.

[biopace]

Originally posted by corey@nsmb.com
On this forum, 99% of the people who rage on about this don't race, have no contact with the race scene, and lead a life that is totally unaffected by race results and race related issues.

They are also not involved in the race scene to any degree, and probably don't give it a second thought until they see it pop up on the web and are bored and want something to talk about.

I don't mean that offensively, but it seems to be the truth.

I don't think people are raging on about this. I think we are having a discussion about the rules affecting transgendered individuals in sport.

Do you really know the number of people on this forum who race, or are you just totally making that up?

I race XC. Does that mean that I am not allowed to have an opinion on a DH subject?

Because if I get what you are saying, then because I don't play competitive hockey, any opinion I have about the Canucks isn't valid?!?

[corey@nsmb.com]

I am sharing my opinion about this debate. I never said anything more beyond what I posted.

I guess "raging on" was a poor choice of words. I've seen this same issue and discussion come up several times a year on these forums for the past few years. What I am trying to say is that this same discussion has been done so many times, yet it keeps repeating itself regardless.

The majority of the dominant figures in the debate/discussion are non-racers and are completely unaffected by the issue.

As I said, I am not trying to upset anyone.

[APT]

Honestly, I don't think this issue has anything to do with racing/non-racing "crowd". In the other forums (non NSMB) that I mentioned before, the majority of the opinions come from DH racers.

[biopace]

The majority of the dominant figures in the debate/discussion are non-racers and are completely unaffected by the issue.

I think that is a bit of a poor attitude to take. The sport of cycling encompasses all facets, whether racing, freeride, recreational or otherwise. An event in one facet can affect all other facets.

If a situation like this heads in the wrong direction (instead of UCI simply figuring out how the rules should work and enforcing them), it will take away from the legitimacy of racing. That affects the desire of sponsors to inject money into racing. Which affects the ability of racers to compete at a high level. Which affects racing-driven product development. Which affects the quality of my bike. (umm...yeah...tight connection...tight.)

I think part of the problem is that half of the people in this discussion are talking about a single person, while others are talking about the sport in general.

[derwood]

A wise man once said:

"Dont hate the playa...hate the game"

[chelle]

I would like to say again, thanks to y'all for being respectful. some of the other boards have been down right hateful.

Since we're still disscussing this a few points should be cleared up. The whole half way comment was interesting as this did come up last year in England. The government met and decided that they should adopt some human rights legislation regarding trans folk. Their ruling also included sport and therefore would have implications for all sport governing bodies. It was decided that in order for a person (of either gender) to gain recognition as their "new" gender all that they had to do was "present as the gender of their choice and the government would grant documentation to reflect this". This raised alarm bells within the transsexual community because an rep league footy player could show up at a government office in a dress and be given female ID. I don't think the government ever thought of the implications so when it was brought to their attention they changed the rules to the two year minimum. As for the half way comment, there are a couple of defining points. There are drugs that trans folk take until surgery called androgen blockers. This means that a person who produces tesosterone will still produce it but the body no longer "absorbs" it. In professional sport where doping testing is done, one of the tests is for tesosterone levels. If a person male or female has elevated levels they will fail the pee test. After surgery a genetic female will produce more testosterone than a trans person who has had SRS. Some trans people after SRS will actually take testosterone to increase the libido.

Enough of trans 101

About the comment that only people with xx or xy cromosones should be allowed to compete. If that were the case then about 30 million people around the world would not be able to play. That's almost the pop of Canada. Do you know what your own cromosones are? ever been tested? There are many different variations.

Enough for now.

Ciao

[synchro]

maybe i should go into women's boxing and become champion?!?!?!?!?

you'd still get your ass kicked whore

[Neo]

Well said Michelle. Thanks for your insight and again, props on the well-deserved win.


I would like to say again, thanks to y'all for being respectful. some of the other boards have been down right hateful.

Since we're still disscussing this a few points should be cleared up. The whole half way comment was interesting as this did come up last year in England....

...

About the comment that only people with xx or xy cromosones should be allowed to compete. If that were the case then about 30 million people around the world would not be able to play. That's almost the pop of Canada. Do you know what your own cromosones are? ever been tested? There are many different variations.

Enough for now.

Ciao

[seand]

A wise man once said:

"Dont hate the playa...hate the game"


bill belamy; man of much wisdom :)

[gearwh0re]

I would like to say again, thanks to y'all for being respectful. some of the other boards have been down right hateful.

Since we're still disscussing this a few points should be cleared up. The whole half way comment was interesting as this did come up last year in England. The government met and decided that they should adopt some human rights legislation regarding trans folk. Their ruling also included sport and therefore would have implications for all sport governing bodies. It was decided that in order for a person (of either gender) to gain recognition as their "new" gender all that they had to do was "present as the gender of their choice and the government would grant documentation to reflect this". This raised alarm bells within the transsexual community because an rep league footy player could show up at a government office in a dress and be given female ID. I don't think the government ever thought of the implications so when it was brought to their attention they changed the rules to the two year minimum. As for the half way comment, there are a couple of defining points. There are drugs that trans folk take until surgery called androgen blockers. This means that a person who produces tesosterone will still produce it but the body no longer "absorbs" it. In professional sport where doping testing is done, one of the tests is for tesosterone levels. If a person male or female has elevated levels they will fail the pee test. After surgery a genetic female will produce more testosterone than a trans person who has had SRS. Some trans people after SRS will actually take testosterone to increase the libido.

Enough of trans 101

About the comment that only people with xx or xy cromosones should be allowed to compete. If that were the case then about 30 million people around the world would not be able to play. That's almost the pop of Canada. Do you know what your own cromosones are? ever been tested? There are many different variations.

Enough for now.

Ciao

michelle, good on ya for being brave enough to go through what you have goine through.

i PERSONALLY don't think it is fair for you to race with people who were born women, and i think that sucks for you because you would be at a disadvantage racing men. the world is unfair, but i would rather see it unfair to one persion (you) than unfair to everyone else.

i am going to stop posting in this thread, i have said more than enough and want you to know that my feelings are in NO WAY biased by fear or hate. i am completely comfortable with your choice and even if i wasn't it is YOUR CHOICE.

props to you. i disagree with the ruling but am not able to look you in the eye and fault you for taking advantage of it, at the end of the day most people and maybe even myself would do the same

hopefully one say we can meet, you can school me on a ride and we can have a few brews.

nothing but respect,

gearwh0re

[synchro]

michelle, good on ya for being brave enough to go through what you have goine through.

i PERSONALLY don't think it is fair for you to race with people who were born women, and i think that sucks for you because you would be at a disadvantage racing men. the world is unfair, but i would rather see it unfair to one persion (you) than unfair to everyone else.

i am going to stop posting in this thread, i have said more than enough and want you to know that my feelings are in NO WAY biased by fear or hate. i am completely comfortable with your choice and even if i wasn't it is YOUR CHOICE.

props to you. i disagree with the ruling but am not able to look you in the eye and fault you for taking advantage of it, at the end of the day most people and maybe even myself would do the same

hopefully one say we can meet, you can school me on a ride and we can have a few brews.

nothing but respect,

gearwh0re

whore, you are a class act. good on ya man.

[SEKTER13]

I think some of you are jumping the gun on the said "advantages". For example, many pages back, someone mentioned the pelvis thing. That would be a great argument if every man and woman were shaped exactly the same, just two body types...but thats not the way it is. There is a HUGE amount of variation in bone shapes and sizes in either gender, I know some girls who are very masculin and very strong, way more so then many of my male friends, what if they take up racing, is there body shape an unfair advantage? Guess we should have different classes for different body types. The people who decided on putting her in the woman's category have weighed all these issues WAY more then anyone on this board have. They didnt flip a coin. Just my opinion. Congrats Michelle. Oh yeah, I think this thread eventually turned into one of the better threads on the subject, for the most part no one was being rude or anything. Gearwh0re especially came to mind, nice to see so much respect for somethign he doesnt agree with. :)

[Wayne P]

Michelle is my friend and I've ridden with her a lot. When I first rode with her (about 6 years ago) she was a good freerider who was on par with most other good female freeriders. Let's just say she has progressed a lot in those 6 years. She trains and has a kill or be killed attitude. That's what wins her races.

I've also ridden with Cassandra Boon, Sylvie Allen, and Tera Meade. No offence to Michelle, but from those experiences, she has little or no advantages over them. Those ladies will make most men crap their pants pretty easily, whether its about speed, gnarl, or even on the moto. I remember training at Silver Star a few years ago and not being able to shake Cassandra off my tail.

I think its a cop out when female DH racers who don't really win, pass the blame onto Michelle for their losses. What about Anne Caroline? What about the top 10 UCI ranked women? Why don't you single those girls out? Those are the people you should be worried about. Why does AC have such an advantage most of the time???

Its also sad that a female racer would say imply that you can't perform as well as a man being brought up as a woman. That's bull shit. That should be more motivation to train harder and do better because you can. Woa is me. I'm sure as hell not going to tell my daughter that she can't keep with the boys in most sports. My wife at her peak could out climb many Cat 1 & 2 men on the road bike. Why? She worked for it and had the attitude that she could.

Lay off scapegoating Michelle and work on your own games.

Who are you MTB Gal?

[wallyjames]

Mtb gal, that's the first post in this thread that has actual worthwhile content to it. I feel that the results show that Michelle's physical 'advantages' are pretty transitory at best - she hasn't exactly taken the race world by storm. She wins some, she loses some to the same women she beat the previous week.

I always thought that DH was at least as much about skills as it was about horsepower, but you bring forward the psychological aspects. You're right, finding the right head space before a race is critical, and it's impossible to replicate being brought up as a male when you're a female. But... there are so many variables within the same gender. Some guys bring an altogether more aggressive mindset to the course than do others, and the same goes for women. Does that give them an advantage? Some days yes, some days no. Lance Armstrong is visibly (to my mind) more mentally tough than any of his opponents, and yet they all point to alleged drug us as the 'real' source of his winning ways (another sign of lack of grit on their part).

Please don't infer from this that I'm implying you lack talent or self-discipline. I just think Michelle falls well within the range of mental and physical abilities for female racers. If she were winning World Cups by 10 seconds then I'd be crying foul too. Maybe we should be investigating Anne-Caroline rather than someone who is mostly middle of the pack at WC events? She just seems pretty darn normal to me.

[Wayne P]

I'm not singling you out at all. More of a generalization of complainers. In fact, you raise some good points. Giddyup!

[mtbgal]

Mtb gal, that's the first post in this thread that has actual worthwhile content to it. I feel that the results show that Michelle's physical 'advantages' are pretty transitory at best - she hasn't exactly taken the race world by storm. She wins some, she loses some to the same women she beat the previous week.

I always thought that DH was at least as much about skills as it was about horsepower, but you bring forward the psychological aspects. You're right, finding the right head space before a race is critical, and it's impossible to replicate being brought up as a male when you're a female. But... there are so many variables within the same gender. Some guys bring an altogether more aggressive mindset to the course than do others, and the same goes for women. Does that give them an advantage? Some days yes, some days no. Lance Armstrong is visibly (to my mind) more mentally tough than any of his opponents, and yet they all point to alleged drug us as the 'real' source of his winning ways (another sign of lack of grit on their part).

Please don't infer from this that I'm implying you lack talent or self-discipline. I just think Michelle falls well within the range of mental and physical abilities for female racers. If she were winning World Cups by 10 seconds then I'd be crying foul too. Maybe we should be investigating Anne-Caroline rather than someone who is mostly middle of the pack at WC events? She just seems pretty darn normal to me.


I agree, this is all completely a gray area, that's why I wish that there is more research on all this! Has anyone compared her times to the Master Expert Men? Would she be on par with them? Do most 36/37 year old women have times like the pro-circuit women that train - like Marla Streb?
She is right on par with the pro-women for sure, and it seems like fair competition time wise, physically wise and skill wise, doesn't it? It's just so different from any situation that any of us have dealt socially that we have to look at the psychology of it. Will it be the same in other sports? This may take years! I just was open with my thoughts that go through my mind when it comes to this issue. They are very personal, because cycling and racing are a very personal and important part of my life - I don't know if my feelings and questions are right or wrong!
Sorry guys, but I doubt that the men will ever have to deal with a comparible situation. It's really hard to have any answers when this can really only happen in one side of the gender scope in sports - you have to consider that this may not be as big of a deal to the men as the women because you will never deal with a similar situation.

[bunny]

This whole thing is getting old but...
I love racing. So does Michelle. Her and I have been on the National Team together, sessioned courses, etc...
I like MD, I admire her strength and convictions, and I wish that I could be as couragous as her in many aspects of my life.
There has been a lot of research on MD; for MD. Argueable advantages such as bone structure, bone mass, VO2 intake, etc... They get us nowhere on either side because everybody is different, and everybody has different natural advantages and disadvantages.
Michelle was supposed to be a woman. No doubt. No one would go through all this if they didn't truly feel like something was off.
I was supposed to be a woman too. I get reminded when I get bitchy when I'm ovullating (sp?) and for about 5 days before my period. Oh, and my cramps tend to remind me as well as the headaches at the same time... but don't worry, it's been happening for the last 16 years and I deal with it well, especially on race day... just ask the people around me that get to lavash in my sunshine.
I know, I know, lot's of women dont get their period, lots of women can't have children and lot's of women don't get pms.
It sure makes me jealous though, when I feel groggy, bitchy and crampy looking at Michelle ahead of me in line-up on race day.
Then I think about how she went through puberty. She could throw further all of the sudden.... I couldn't. She could jump higher all of the sudden... I couldn't. Her voice changed all of the sudden... mine didn't. She changed in the boys washroom... I didn't. She raced against the boys and kept up... I did and I couldn't. She was accepted as a male... I wasn't. She was coached and taken seriously as a boy... I wasn't. I'm sorry that I'm so cynical, but I'm truly jealous.

I understand that she went through her own psychological shit, that's a given. But what about my psychology or the other women racers in line with me on race day. Do you not think that having to race a gal that used to be a guy might affect some of the girls energy and race state?

Race day is extremely psychological, mental preparation is more important than anything. MD knows that, I know that, and any racer who's ever been serious knows that. What I wouldn't give to have MD's experience as a male - to have had that strength, to have had that upbringing and bring it to the table in my race runs.
Racing moto as a boy... I can't even fathom it!!!
No one can tell me that her past experience is not to her advantage, not when it comes to DH racing against the gals. And yes, there have been tomboys that have grown up LIKE boys, but it's just not the same.

Ugh. I hate having to mull over stupid crap like this before and after a race, because I like MD and it is so energy wasting and hurtful for everyone involved.
Has anyone taken the time to look at the psychology of this situation in women's sport though?
I have a good feeling that most of you guys on the board will not be able to relate to what I'm saying... that's to be expected. You haven't had my experiences and you don't race pro-women.
Props to MD for chasing her dreams, but I don't think that there has been enough research on either side to have this as a final and fair decission. There is no measurable way to prove MD's advantages, other than her male experiences - but there are definetly not disadvantages and that's the part that feels wrong.

Btw... has anyone ever compared her times to the Master Experts?

sorry... but way to feel sorry for yourself. i understand this is how you feel and you are entitled to your opinions. some of them i agree with. but you are jealous of michelle because she doesn't get pms? that's a bit much. i'd bet your cramps don't begin to compare to all the hormonal changes she has gone through. she deals with it, trains, and works on improving herself. as far as the psychological and how it affects you... we can all think of plenty of reasons why anyone "may" have an advantage if you're looking hard enough.

again. i do see some of your good points but i think a lot of the girls complaining need to focus on themselves rather than michelle. if it's energy draining for you to mull over all the possible advantages she has before every race don't! think about how you're going to win. i've competed at an elite level in sports and didn't win by mulling over how anyone else had an edge. imagine if all the energy that went into stressing over michelle racing went into training i bet you'd all be kicking her ass. :P

[mtbgal]

Point taken Bunny, feeling sorry for myself for getting PMS is a bit much... Bitchy and crampy is probably a lot better than what MD's body has undergone. When you've got a bunch of girls travelling together than end up on the SAME schedule and are comparing notes on how their pms is doing... you lose sight of how other people are feeling and what they are going through! And I know that I've been so pissed off at the world when I have pms that it's actually fueled aggression in a training and in race runs... So moot point.
'again. i do see some of your good points but i think a lot of the girls complaining need to focus on themselves rather than michelle. if it's energy draining for you to mull over all the possible advantages she has before every race don't! think about how you're going to win.'
Complaining... I know that there is a lot of complaining about MD that gets no one anywhere, beleive me, but this is a pretty fresh subject (only about 4yrs in the mtb scene). I really feel that it's important for people to talk about it and become educated about it so that there is not any 'weirdness' for MD or any of us at a race!
It's equally important that to think about it, form an opinion that you can deal with and then move on and race! Do you really think that when the timer start beeping, that anyones opinions matter?
I'm not an ignoramous, I've been to MD's talks and I've educated myself as much as possible on the history and decisions made. There will always be concerns though!
You can't tell people nowadays to sit down, shut up, stop complaining and except it. There are too many sides to this coin, and it would be unhealthy for everyone involved to not discuss and ask questions. Michelle is teaching everyone to communicate on a different level, and really making us look at the way that sport has evolved.
Not all the questions have been answered, and they may never be. That doesn't mean that they can not be asked.

[DaveM]

What I wouldn't give to have MD's experience as a male - to have had that strength, to have had that upbringing and bring it to the table in my race runs.
Racing moto as a boy... I can't even fathom it!!!
No one can tell me that her past experience is not to her advantage, not when it comes to DH racing against the gals. And yes, there have been tomboys that have grown up LIKE boys, but it's just not the same.

Something tells me the elite female competitors don't have the psychological mindset of a woman at the start gate. They have the mindset of a winner. No matter who they're competing against.

That's what separates the winners from the excuse makers.

The best in the world at any sport don't use someone else as an excuse for not winning. If you're already making excuses before the race, you likely don't have what it takes to be the best.

[Uncle Duke]

I think its a cop out when female DH racers who don't really win, pass the blame onto Michelle for their losses. What about Anne Caroline? What about the top 10 UCI ranked women? Why don't you single those girls out? Those are the people you should be worried about. Why does AC have such an advantage most of the time???







Im w wayne on this one.

If MD was #1 in the world , or at least highly ranked then I could see the complaints..but it seems that other women are able to post better times than MD despite being "born" women.

pull up the socks.

[Wayne P]

Something tells me the elite female competitors don't have the psychological mindset of a woman at the start gate.


The female road racing community is known for this. Its depressing and lame to know that they are happy to sit in and not go for the win because they don't think they can or should. I wouldn't be surprised if the DH and XC fields are the same.

Michelle doesn't see the "bring you down" attitude that prevails in Canada in the US quite as much. Its sad that we are known for this.

[LeeLau]

This thread turned out to be very civilized. I like it!

I only seriously raced XC and was always pack-fill. But I do remember the best races I had were racing with buddies from Team PUKE where we would do out best to beat each other in the ground. No amount of non-racing riding can replicate that feeling.

I'm sure duke you felt the same way when you and flex and mitch and dale etc would all try to stomp each other.

[Uncle Duke]

This thread turned out to be very civilized. I like it!

I only seriously raced XC and was always pack-fill. But I do remember the best races I had were racing with buddies from Team PUKE where we would do out best to beat each other in the ground. No amount of non-racing riding can replicate that feeling.

I'm sure duke you felt the same way when you and flex and mitch and dale etc would all try to stomp each other.


true.

we were VERY competitve..motto NO MERCY.


it was good training.

I never snuck past dale, none of my bros did.

I got around flex 1x..that fricker had guns.



mitch !! I just saw him..hes like 98 now but doesnt look day over 37. impressive..wicked dude.

[LeeLau]

The only time I've ever passed flex was when i started vet ex and he was getting back pains. Then he flatted. NO MERCY hahaha. I can't say Ive ever passed Stu in a race. I saw mitch on a ferry - he's never looked happier - getting out of north van was a breath of fresh air for him.

The only prob riding with guys like that is that we never knew the meaning of long slow distance ... but then we had a lot of fun.

[Uncle Duke]

he didnt flat ,, :conspiracy theory: he does that on purpose..

end of hijack.

[mtbgal]

Something tells me the elite female competitors don't have the psychological mindset of a woman at the start gate. They have the mindset of a winner. No matter who they're competing against.

That's what separates the winners from the excuse makers.

The best in the world at any sport don't use someone else as an excuse for not winning. If you're already making excuses before the race, you likely don't have what it takes to be the best.

You're absolutely right. You shouldn't use people as an excuse for your outcomes. But is it right to not question and research whether or not transgendered athletes have an edge in the female class?
I can completely understand why male racers feel this way about female sport. You guys race eachother and want to beat eachother no matter what size or shape your competition may be, and females could learn a lot from that!
There's been a reason for male/female classes in the past, and there is still to this day male/female separation in PE classes in school, bmx, smaller balls in basketball, lower nets in volleyball, shorter courses in golf, etc...
Maybe it's time we look at female athletics in a different light, but society still pushes for the separation, in turn, female athletes - some, not all - will consider themselves different from men and transgendered athletes.
Elites are elites! No one got there making excuses, but can we not question these issues at all without being told to pull up our socks, bite the bullet and quit whinning?

[biopace]

Originally posted by uncle duke
If MD was #1 in the world , or at least highly ranked then I could see the complaints..but it seems that other women are able to post better times than MD despite being "born" women.

pull up the socks.

The use of MD's results to claim that a transgendered athlete doesn't have an advantage is useless.

If I decided to take EPO and the try to race cat 1 road in Europe, I'll still get my butt whupped. The unfair advantage of EPO won't put me on the podium. That doesn't mean that EPO doesn't represent an unfair advantage.

If Lance Armstrong decided, for whatever reason, to undergo the same transgender process, I would bet that after it all, he could go and race women's road and finish six weeks before the rest of the women. Would we then think that it represents an unfair advantage? Or would you still be telling them that they just need to "pull up the socks?"

[Uncle Duke]

yea its a tough issue . and I intended no direct insult. to be honest, even though this is an open forum I have found a lot of this discussion , even though its been pretty "clean", to be in poor taste. This is some very personal stuff being debated.

I'm not saying MD doesnt have an advantage and Im not saying its fair..but I do think why not focus on your own game more and less on hers?

[biopace]

originally posted by uncle duke
yea its a tough issue . and I intended no direct insult. to be honest, even though this is an open forum I have found a lot of this discussion , even though its been pretty "clean", to be in poor taste. This is some very personal stuff being debated.

I didn't think you were insulting anyone, just not really understanding the issue.

And I haven't really seen much that has been in "poor taste." The majority of posts that could be considered rather personal have come from MD herself, or the other one or two people here who are directly affected by this issue. The rest of the discussion has focussed on an issue to do with the rules of sport.

I'm not saying MD doesnt have an advantage and Im not saying its fair..but I do think why not focus on your own game more and less on hers?

What kind of attitude is that?!? We should all be totally self-absorbed and not get involved in important issues? When issues of racism, discrimination or trail access come up we should just say "Well, that doesn't affect me directly, so I'll just focus on my own game"?

It may just be that I'm in a bad mood today, but I think that that kind of attitude is one of the biggest problems in western society: selfish apathy.

[DaveM]

What kind of attitude is that?!?

The kind you need to win.

I think in order to succeed at the highest level of competition you do need to be completely self absorbed and concentrate on nothing other than winning.

[Uncle Duke]

The kind you need to win.

I think in order to succeed at the highest level of competition you do need to be completely self absorbed and concentrate on nothing other than winning.


yea thats it.


I m def way off on the sidelines and I have gotten into hot water before w my opinion so I'll step aside and quote lance armstrong...

"people ask me what Im on..my bike , 6 hrs a day..what are you on?"

[Wayne P]

If Lance Armstrong decided, for whatever reason, to undergo the same transgender process, I would bet that after it all, he could go and race women's road and finish six weeks before the rest of the women. Would we then think that it represents an unfair advantage? Or would you still be telling them that they just need to "pull up the socks?"

That's a tough one. I would say he wouldn't be that much of a shoe-in as you'd think. Those top women can climb and there's some really good sprinters. If Lance had all the disadvantages of losing his testosterone, amongst other things, there may be a surprise.

[special k]

I had an opportunity to do some research on the issue . . . for the purpose of my paper I had to choose a side which is not necessarily reflective of my opinion. Read on . . .

Transexuals in Sport


An area of athletics that has been generating attention, controversy and gender confusion is transsexuals in sport. Transsexuals are defined as “Persons who were designated as one sex and gender at birth but who prefer to identify themselves and to live as another gender and as another sex. They may employ various social, hormonal, and surgical techniques to alter themselves sufficiently to change both their gender and sex status” (Devor, 2004). Until recently, sex testing was mandatory in competitive sport.

In 1999, these procedures were pulled but no written policy was put in its place. Debate began to curdle in the athletic arena; as the numbers of cases of sex reassignment came to effect sport, people began actively looking for answers, “As we know there is a men’s division and a women’s division and that is the way life is, but that is not the way biology is . . . There are people whose brains say one thing and their body is another. So, when they decide to switch sexes, as we look at them anatomically, then this provides an interesting dilemma. Because if you have male on your drivers license and you become female, then how do you fit in terms of competing in sport?” (Fish, 2004)

In May 2004, the International Olympic Committee (IOC) approved the consensus by the IOC Medical Commission that said transsexuals can compete in sport under certain requirements, such as at least two years of hormonal therapy and sex reassignment surgery (Australian Sports Commission, 2004). Today, this heated debate is still at large; one side believes the medical research is substantial and therefore supports the activation of the new policy whereas the other feels transsexuals should not be able to compete as their reassigned sex. The major concern is that of transsexual women, male to female athletes. Some argue they could pose an advantage over their female competitors. This paper will identify and discuss the debate surrounding this contentious topic.

Medical research regarding physiological, anatomical and physical attributes as a transsexual will be explored as well as the psychological and sociological aspects. Although there has been research on the issue in hopes to clarify why the IOC has made their decision, it will be clear that there are biological performance advantages for the male to female transsexual. Furthermore, there appears to be psychological and social situations that will aid in performance enhancement. In order to coincide with notions of sport and fair play, the transsexual athlete should not be allowed to compete in sport as their reassigned sex.

Some researchers say that transsexuals’ bodies change sufficiently physically to allow them to justify allowing them to compete. Other researchers argue that the physical changes are not large enough and question this adequacy. There are several important physiological and anatomical circumstances that instigate performance advantage for men over women. For example, men have significantly higher levels of testosterone, greater muscle to fat ratio and greater lung and heart capacity(Australian Sports Commission, 2004). Through hormone treatment, some of these effects dissipate; after 3 months of hormone treatment, sex hormone levels of transsexuals are in the range of those of the opposite sex (Slabbekoom, 2001). Transsexuals must continue taking hormones in order to maintain their reassigned sex. As a result, the transsexual body changes significantly, influencing physical appearance, “Men who become women lose much of their muscle mass while women who become men tend to develop muscles more easily than they used to” (Australian Sports Commission, 2004).

Some female transsexuals report that their hormone levels are actually below those of their reassigned sex; “I have .01 levels of testosterone in my body where the average female has much greater levels, produced by their internal organs. I have no way of producing testosterone, so I loose the muscle building hormones and must maintain what I already have. Of which now, I have lost 30 to 35% of my muscle bulk, as well my fat distribution has changed so much and dropped right to my hips...” (Anonymous, 2004).
It is important to note hormone treatment is not responsible for all of the physical changes; hormones do not encourage organ growth. Surgery becomes necessary to completely alter physical appearance.
Despite the changes that hormones and surgery offer for the transsexual, there are several anatomical and physiological circumstances that are established pre-treatment and do not change. Hormone treatment and surgery cannot alter all biological aspects to that of the reassigned sex. First of all, females have lower blood hemoglobin content than males, which means they have a lower oxygen carrying capacity of the blood. Additionally, females have slightly smaller hearts and consequently a less effective pump. Another anatomical situation that offers an advantage for the male athlete is lung volume. Males have greater chest volume, lung volume and therefore capacity to breathe (Grabowski & Tortora, 2003, p.827). These differences combined account for gender differences in maximal cardiac output as well as maximal rate of oxygen delivery and diffusion to and within tissues (Seiler, 2004).

It is true that cardiac output and oxygen diffusing capacity can change in both males and females in response to exercise. However, a trained female athlete will typically not out perform a trained male athlete when it comes to these anatomical and physiological circumstances. Some recent studies have suggested that the female heart exhibits less enlargement in response to training than the male heart (Seiler, 2004). Other physiological systems are up for debate; organs such as the liver and kidneys are typically bigger in males than females, which could offer metabolic advantages. After treatment, these organs in a transsexual do not shrink to the sizes typical of a female.

Additionally, the muscular-skeletal geometry is typically advantageous in males over females; males have longer long bones, which offer a biomechanical advantage. Hormone treatment has no effect on skeletal structure (Australian Sports Commission, 2004). It is apparent that there are individual differences and therefore performance advantages within sex as well. However, on average, the transsexual women will be taller than biological women, which will consequently offer all the advantages associated with longer levers.

The above circumstances demonstrate some of the performance advantages for the male athlete and moreover, they do not appear to change under the influence of hormone treatment and surgery in the transsexual.

Although there are reports concerning the shifts in psychological behavior of transsexuals, speculation remains regarding the totality of this transition. Nevertheless, it cannot be disputed that hormones do help dictate certain behaviors. Research indicates that estrogens are involved in emotional well-being in general whereas testosterone has been specifically linked to feelings of aggression and forms of initiative and uninhibited behavior (Slabbekoom, 2001). Research has also demonstrated that hormone treatment does have an effect on emotions, “After cross sex hormone treatment, males to females showed a decrease in irritability and sexual arousability . . . female to males became more prone to anger and aggression and their sexual motivation and arousability increased” (Slabbekoom, 2001). As new hormones are introduced, the body reacts accordingly to the effects of these hormones:

One thing that most people don't realize about testosterone is that
is a chemical, absorbed and consumed by the body. There are permanent effects on the body because of testosterone but the brain is not one of them. The body's cells are constantly being replaced so even if there were permanent effects, most are gone by now. If a woman takes testosterone she will become aggressive but if she stops taking it she will lose that aggressive impulse. (Dumaresq, 2004).

With the absence of testosterone, they feel they are responding directly to the estrogen in their system, and vice versa:

I am constantly second guessing myself as well as I do not have the cardio even if I had the thoughts to jump into a challenging situation on a fleeting thought. I’ve had to re-vamp my thinking. It is a whole new experience. I have to focus entirely on technique, and not throw a trick cause I have the physical strength, it is not there anymore. The physical and mental aggression is gone. (Anonymous, 2004)

Despite these reports, they do not undermine the fact that psychological and social histories will help determine who we are and how we live our lives. When Dr. Devor, a transsexual male, was asked in an interview, “What space does Holly (his previous identity) occupy in Aaron Devor?” he responded with “Let’s just say none of us leaves our history behind” (Canadian Broadcast Corporation, 2004). Transsexuals have been under the influence of hormones under their previous gender. Do these primarily innate patterns of response change completely? What about the hard wiring in the brain that develops through growth? In particular, male puberty would mean the influence of testosterone. This means, the physical advantages associated with being a male (greater muscle to fat ratio and heart and lung capacity than women) as well as the emotional and behavioral differences that testosterone encourages (aggression, actions of inhibitions). As a result, transsexuals have reacted to these biological and psychological differences and consequently adopted these histories. As well, when a transsexual female was competitive before treatment, they have also had the opportunity to experience these masculine advantages in the sporting arena.


Additionally, socialization as a male can lead to different circumstances than socialization as a female; “It is the first thing we do when we meet someone or see someone walking down the street. We size up their "sex" first... So from here, my parents new no better, but to treat and socialize me as a boy” (Anonymous, 2004). Hegemonic notions of masculinity and femininity have huge effects on how one lives their life; “I was raised as a male and I won't say that didn't influence me. We are all products of our environment and capable of becoming whatever we are exposed to. If you’re living amongst the lions, you become a lion or you die” (Dumaresq, 2004). Experiences living as a male and moreover, competing as a male with testosterone, are experiences that most females will never have:

I mean can you REALLY turn back the clock and raise her as a girl. Give her all those experiences?? I believe they can do amazing things but changing experiences as far as I know is not possible. I will never be in a mans b