horses on Camp Brick singletrack

[TheGiggler]

anyone else see that the horse crowd has essentially destroyed one of the Camp Brick singletracks?

i've been riding it for 2 years and until about 3-4 weeks ago I had never seen a horse track on it. now, the trail is trashed. whole sections of rock work that have been there for years are completely gone, rocks all loose and missing. the trail used to be solid ground even after rains, now it's about 6" of mushy soil the whole way down, basically a big freaking mud pit.

anyone who thinks mountain bikes cause impact haven't seen what a few horses can do a in a few weeks. hmmm, a couple hundred pound human does less impact than 1000+ horse? you don't say...

i will be following up with LSCR on this, and I urge others who ride Camp Brick to do so as well. this is bullshit.

[Duncan]

Go out and take some pictures ... BTW I don't think attacking another user group is very productive. Maybe try and frame it more as "a dialog with horse people" - kinda like a horse-people whisperer. One thing I noticed about horseback riders is that they tend to be rich, educated and well-connected (not that I know what it feels like to be any of those things). How many guys do you know pour cement or serve expressos all week and then go horseback riding on the weekends?. Maybe we should try to be constructive while trying to be friends. D. <- I don't pretend to know anything, so blow it off if you feel like it.

[TheGiggler]

i'm sorry, but when someone is so clueless that their animals are destroying huge sections of rock work, i don't think dialogue is going to go too far. i shit you not, a 10ft section of beautiful roman road is now a big muddy hole in the ground. these people know they are destryoing the work of others and simply do not care.

send your polite emails to LSCR@gvrd.bc.ca . the trail in questions is the southernmost camp brick singletrack.

[dirty deeds]

trev, that's really bad. it was ok last week when i took a conference group through there. let Rich Juryn and Dave Diplock know for sure - ASAP.

[Wayne P]

Invite them to an informal trail day on that trail. They would probably laugh at the idea.

[sanrensho]

i shit you not, a 10ft section of beautiful roman road is now a big muddy hole in the ground.

Pics please. Hopefully somebody has some "before" shots so we can get an idea of the damage.

[Duncan]

i'm sorry, but when someone is so clueless that their animals are destroying huge sections of rock work, i don't think dialogue is going to go too far. i shit you not, a 10ft section of beautiful roman road is now a big muddy hole in the ground. these people know they are destryoing the work of others and simply do not care.


No doubt someone needs to be held accountable, but there is and has been horseriding in that area for years, with little visible impact in my experience (I used to live around there until a couple of years ago, but don't go there much anymore). It could have been a bunch of kids who didn't know any better (there are lots of kids who ride out of the Equestrian Center)... I'm just saying that we shouldn't accuse everyone who rides horses (or rides horses there), just like some of us don't drink, smoke up, urinate, defecate, streetrace or walk around naked on Mountain Highway. D.

[Hip Hop!]

i'm betting theres a hiking forum somewhere with thread complaining about how mountian bikes have ruined a section of their trails.

[dirty deeds]

the horse riders from the stables over there know where to ride. They share the berm and the powerlines trail plus they've got their own trail network in the forest on the other side of the road.

The Camp Brick single track is for riders/hikers. This is established protocol which horse riders have honored for years.

Statix is right. If a group of them have ridden in there over the weekend and trashed the trails it's bullshit.

[Knight-Rider]

god forbid if one of them catch you riding an equestrian trail. I got a stip torn off of me one time, and I didn't even know the trail was horses only. My main beef with horses is that dog owners are expected to clean their dogs shit up in a little plastic bag, but horses are allowed to shit all over the middle of the trail. watershed is a good example of this. I know one is more biodegragable than other, but it still sucks to ride through.

[Seal]

I ride there regularly and most of the mud and loose crap is from the many many bikers riding the trail during the NS Mountain Bike Conference races being held. These trails were all part of the course and I rode them the Monday aftert the event and the trails were trashed by excessive use from mountain bikers not horses. Only once in the last few months have I seen any sign of horse crap on the single track trails around camp brick.

[TheGiggler]

I ride there regularly and most of the mud and loose crap is from the many many bikers riding the trail during the NS Mountain Bike Conference races being held. These trails were all part of the course and I rode them the Monday aftert the event and the trails were trashed by excessive use from mountain bikers not horses. Only once in the last few months have I seen any sign of horse crap on the single track trails around camp brick.


you haven't been there recently. go now and say the same thing.

anyone can tell tire tracks from the races vs. clearly defined hoof prints in the mud.

anyone can tell that.

[TheGiggler]

i'm betting theres a hiking forum somewhere with thread complaining about how mountian bikes have ruined a section of their trails.


haha.

hike the grouse grind or lynn loop -- hikers definitely cause erosion. some would say about the same as riders.

while anyone who says that riders/hikers cause the same damage/erosion as horses is completely out to lunch.

i'm 100% in support of hikers using MTB trails. i just don't think horses on MTB trails is acceptable when they simply can NOT support the weight of the horses...

[TheGiggler]

Pics please. Hopefully somebody has some "before" shots so we can get an idea of the damage.

i DO NOT have access to a digital camera the moment.

if anyone rides these trails, please take a camera along with you on your next ride and grab some pics.

we don't necessarily need "before' pics, the damage is that bad .... it speaks for itself.

[dirty deeds]

we don't necessarily need "before' pics, the damage is that bad .... it speaks for itself.

that's brutal. we've spent a lot of time getting those trails in shape, including all the school kids coming out to help & learn how to maintain trails. sounds like it's all undone on one weekend.

[dirty deeds]

if they had fun running their horses through the trail last weekend; they'll probably got at it again this weekend.

[TheGiggler]

DD, thank god that at the moment it's just the southernmost piece of singletrack (after you cross the pipe).

but there's no reason why they can't and won't ride horses on the other trails (north of the worked one) if we do not oppose them ...

[dirty deeds]

trev, like I said before the best way to put an immediate stop to it is to get Richard and Dave in on it. They basically manage those trails with LSCR. did you email them? do you have their contacts? They're both occassional users on here so you could PM them. Email Sharon as well. She's got the hot-line to LSCR as well.

[Tom]

watershed is a good example of this. I know one is more biodegragable than other, but it still sucks to ride through.

yeah, but it sucks more if you crash and LAND in it

[derwood]

or when it comes off your front tire and gets on your face,mouth and clothes....

[dirty deeds]

went through there on my ride home today. yeah the horses have chopped it up pretty good. braided the trail and debarked lots of exposed roots. kicked out a lot of rocks.

and for the doubting thomas, lots of horse shit on the trail.

if it's not nipped in the bud, that trail is done.

[bunny]

bastard horses

[dirty deeds]

bastard horses

hehe, bunny.. there's no bad horses, just bad jockeys.

you'd never lead your horsey down the wrong path would you.

[Sharon]

email sent, lets see what they say.

[LSCRstaff]

I plan to speak with the equestrian centre regarding this issue. Horses are allowed in the LSCR but it's a shame if damage is happening due to them riding on certain trails.

[TheGiggler]

went through there on my ride home today. yeah the horses have chopped it up pretty good. braided the trail and debarked lots of exposed roots. kicked out a lot of rocks.

and for the doubting thomas, lots of horse shit on the trail.

if it's not nipped in the bud, that trail is done.


pretty much half done, already eh....

[TheGiggler]

I plan to speak with the equestrian centre regarding this issue. Horses are allowed in the LSCR but it's a shame if damage is happening due to them riding on certain trails.

if this continues, can you guys look into some signage at the trail heads?

whoever it is has been riding horses on it fairly often, like at least once per week for the past 3 weeks or so... it's not just a one off kind of thing. every time i go there i see more and more damage...

thanks for looking into this, that is really awesome! :) :)

[Big Dipper]

There are a bunch of lots at Riverside and Symour that are zoned for horses. Many of these we're sold and had horse stables put in in the last 2 years. I live around the corner and have noticed a lot more horse traffic. Like MTB, horseback riding is on the rise as city slickers look for rural roots. Expect future conflicts, especially when they hit the Bridal Path.

It's true horses trash trails big time but there is little you can do because horse riding rights are grandfathered from the days before cars - that's why they can shit where they like. Personally I think people need to get with the times. Horses in the city are like keeping a Great Dane in a one bedroom apartment. Truth is mountain bikes are the modern horse, more economical, healthier and less of an impact.

[LSCRstaff]

the Bridal Path.

It's actually named the Bridle Trail. It was given that name by a North Vancouver horse association that built it in 1983. The same organization that spent 100 thoundand dollars to build the trail, upgrade the Twin Bridges Trail, and deck the bridge that was pretty much impassable until that point. The trails in the Camp Brick area were used by horses long before mountainbikers were ever on the scene.

[Oldfart]

It's not that bad. I ride there 2 or 3 times week all year. I was riding that trail since it was established as a riding trail. It used to be a vague path through the woods. It was a nice loamy path. Then the first school boys race was held and it became a muddy mess. I tried to reroute the entrance to the lower part off Baden Powell as the straight shot was getting erroded. But to no avail. Others would simply move the logs and debris I placed to guide them down the proper entrace.

More racing on those trails brought about more wear and tear and some excellent maintenance.

Now I did ride the trail a few days after the last races and it was indeed well worn and pretty muddy. A few days after though it was drying out and then some horse traffic obviously dislodged a bunch of armouring rocks, like the ones at the large log crossing and generaly churned up the soil and made it a bit lumpy. The exit onto the road was chopped up a lot too. Nothing that little dry weather and minimal work can't fix. I think that the riders won't return because it's a pretty rough trail for horses. The racing probably made the trail noticable to the riders for the first time so they checked it out.

But all trail users have an impact. A trail is by definition and errosional feature. The passage of animals including people over the same patch of ground will create a path through the vegitation down to the soil. That's nature. I have been in the bush hundreds of kilometers from the nearest road and travelled game paths as erroded and worn as the Lynn Loop.

[LeeLau]

Thanks for the history LSCRstaff. It puts in more in perspective when I now know that the equestrians built the Bridle Path - a trail I love to ride.

[TheGiggler]

Nothing that little dry weather and minimal work can't fix. I think that the riders won't return because it's a pretty rough trail for horses. The racing probably made the trail noticable to the riders for the first time so they checked it out.




they been on it every weekend the past few weeks.

glad you're volunteering, cause i sure won't be working on any trails that see horse traffic.

[Sharon]

It's actually named the Bridle Trail. It was given that name by a North Vancouver horse association that built it in 1983. The same organization that spent 100 thoundand dollars to build the trail, upgrade the Twin Bridges Trail, and deck the bridge that was pretty much impassable until that point. The trails in the Camp Brick area were used by horses long before mountainbikers were ever on the scene.

so where are they now?

I guess that's why the Bridle path has always been so wide and braided. The NSHA Loop has never been the buffest trail either.

I guess so long as the horses are ok riding with the bikes we don't really have a cause for complaint since they were here first.

Too bad they can't be made to clean up after themselves. One issue I can see with this is for the dog walkers to say if Horses owners aren't expected to clean up after the horses, then why should they?

this could get $hitty.

[mattdh]

glad you're volunteering, cause i sure won't be working on any trails that see horse traffic.

Nice attitude.

[LeeLau]

Nice attitude.

why? It would be impossible to work on trails that see horse traffic. We could never keep up. Its already next to impossible to keep up with trails that see lots of shuttling till we came up with the idea of voluntary closures so we could actually keep up.

[TheGiggler]

i'm not going to defend my trail work on here. those that know me know and those that don't should be happy about that.

horses on bridle = yes it's theirs.

horses on mtb created/maintained Camp Brick singletrack = not so cool any way you slice it. esp when there's so much other stuff they can ride on around there...


editted for bitchyness. i'm sorry but like Old Fart I ride these trails multiple times a week and have worked on them, so i'm a little attached...

[Duncan]

Horses in the city are like keeping a Great Dane in a one bedroom apartment. Truth is mountain bikes are the modern horse, more economical, healthier and less of an impact.

And what is your "rationale" for pedalling a mechanical conveyance through the woods? I've been told that bicycles don't belong on built-for-car roads either (I do many thousands of km of road riding each year). Instead of "rationalizing" why it is we are superior to other user groups, its time to sort out how ALL of us can best co-exist with increasing numbers of people and users groups in the woods. The idea that this needs to become an all-out "war" between rival groups bothers me. (And I'm not talking touchy-feely stuff either - if the consensus is that certain groups need to be banned from/restricted to certain areas & terrain, that's what should be done).

Take a cue from Richard Juryn - I noticed that his message on these issues is consistently positive.

Too bad they can't be made to clean up after themselves. One issue I can see with this is for the dog walkers to say if Horses owners aren't expected to clean up after the horses, then why should they?

this could get $hitty.

Bear owners are bad too ... they never pick up all the bearshit either.

D.

[Bryce]

I noticed this too Statix and I was just about to post. How could they not have noticed that they were severely trashing the trail? You'd have to be blind to not notice the huge holes, insta-erosion, and dislodged armoring... or just indifferent. And leaving huge piles of stinking, steaming, nasty shit right in the middle of a singletrack is just fecal icing on the cake. I have no problem with equestrians but they need to find a more appropriate place to ride, like a trail THEY built.

I recall the days when equestrians used to give US shit about riding bikes on the trails and the damage that we do. Well, now we've made our own place to ride and horses SHOULD NOT BE ALLOWED ON THESE TRAILS.

And the shit thing. Its pretty rare that I ride trails that have horse shit on them but I often see it on the hiking trails (how can you miss it?). Dog owners clean up after their dogs usually, and thats a much smaller amount. Suffice to say that I lose respect for equestrians an ounce at a time

[bunny]

all this "they should stay on their own trails but stay off ours" sounds pretty self absorbed. and you guys trash the NIMBY mentality of hikers/residents. not the best approach to working towards what mtn bikers want which i THOUGHT was shared use of trails. easy to say get rid of the other user. not so easy to hear it i guess.

matt if you are talking to the horsey people there is also the stable at laura lynn and 3 private properties with horses who go across from lynn valley and use those trails as well as north shore and the ones on riverside.

[TheGiggler]

not the best approach to working towards what mtn bikers want which i THOUGHT was shared use of trails. easy to say get rid of the other user. not so easy to hear it i guess.


you need to check out this trail before you post about it.

100% in favor of sharing with hikers. horses... not when it results in a trashed trail.

[Bryce]

not the best approach to working towards what mtn bikers want which i THOUGHT was shared use of trails. .

horses trash the trails, straight up. Maybe we should share with dirtbikes and 4x4's as well? I think they should build their own just like we do

"easy to say get rid of the other user. not so easy to hear it i guess."

we've heard it for years from equestrians

[bunny]

i'm just saying to categorically say horses shouldn't be allowed on any trails you guys deem off limits sounds pretty much like the naysayers to mtn biking. if you ask them mtn bikers trash trails too. straight up.

one section of trail has some damage which someone else has posted partially occurred from the mtn biking races there. not a huge deal if you ask me.

why not talk to them about it and work out a solution rather than the knee jerk NIMBY reaction... they better all stay off OUR trails?

maybe if monica had tried to work something out with us re. mtn view before getting her panties all in a knot a lot of bigger issues involving all of fromme/upper lynn valley never would have come up.

trashing other user groups on the internet may make you feel better but it's not very productive. and i can assure you the horse riders aren't reading this.

[Duncan]

we've heard it for years from equestrians

OKAY ... maybe I'm dumb, but I've been riding the North Shore trails for 10+ years now, and I've never been involved in a conflict with equestrians, in fact on a few occasions we've stopped and chatted. I know that horses can and do destroy trails (bikes & hikers can do the same, you could argue on a lesser scale but eventually its a question of numbers, Ned's and the Grouse Grind are examples). But what, when and where are these years of equestrian/biker conflicts you are talking about? If you have a history lesson for me, I'm all ears. Thanks. D.

[LeeLau]

OKAY ... maybe I'm dumb, but I've been riding the North Shore trails for 10+ years now, and I've never been involved in a conflict with equestrians, in fact on a few occasions we've stopped and chatted. I know that horses can and do destroy trails (bikes & hikers can do the same, you could argue on a lesser scale but eventually its a question of numbers, Ned's and the Grouse Grind are examples). But what, when and where are these years of equestrian/biker conflicts you are talking about? If you have a history lesson for me, I'm all ears. Thanks. D.

Ditto. Horse riders seem to be cool.

[sanrensho]

I don't see the connection between what Statix is saying and Monica/Ernie's NIMBY approach.

Monica and Ernie are calling for a unilateral ban against one user group (bikes). Segregation of trail use and respect for other user groups is not the same thing.

[Duncan]

I don't see the connection between what Statix is saying and Monica/Ernie's NIMBY approach.

Monica and Ernie are calling for a unilateral ban against one user group (bikes). Segregation of trail use and respect for other user groups is not the same thing.

Ernie and Monica don't want to ban biking ("a great, healthy activty" - in fact Ernie himself is a cyclist :dizzy: ). They just think mountain biking should be moved somewhere else (GVRD hinterlands, level paved surfaces and bike parks). Statix is completely justified in being pissed off at what happened, I just respectfully disagree that everyone who rides horse ("the horse crowd") in the LSCR is to blame. Slamming the entire community for the actions of an irresponsible few won't fix this problem, in fact it may make things worse making the considerate equestrians un-cooperative and defiant. But that's just me. D.

[sanrensho]

Ernie and Monica don't want to ban biking ("a great, healthy activty" - in fact Ernie himself is a cyclist :dizzy: ).

Sure they do. They want to ban biking from Fromme. I assumed that everyone on this board knows the context, including you and me.

[TheGiggler]

like some people have said, i honestly don't expect any of the horse riders to read this. i essentially just wanted to have a little rant on here.... blow of some steam so to speak.

perhaps if the equestrians really want to ride in the LSCR, some new trails could be cut.

i'm all for horse riders enjoying the forest, i just don't see how we can share singletrack without one user group or the other getting really pissed off... and wouldn't the horse set appreciate their own trails without the horses getting spooked by riders?

[sanrensho]

i essentially just wanted to have a little rant on here....

Your thread accomplished a lot more than that. Good to see LSCR staff responding and listening in on the discussion.

The history lesson was also appreciated.

[Big Dipper]

It's actually named the Bridle Trail. It was given that name by a North Vancouver horse association that built it in 1983. The same organization that spent 100 thoundand dollars to build the trail, upgrade the Twin Bridges Trail, and deck the bridge that was pretty much impassable until that point. The trails in the Camp Brick area were used by horses long before mountainbikers were ever on the scene.


That was my point.

How about a 100K for the NSMBA?

[Big Dipper]

And what is your "rationale" for pedalling a mechanical conveyance through the woods? I've been told that bicycles don't belong on built-for-car roads either (I do many thousands of km of road riding each year). Instead of "rationalizing" why it is we are superior to other user groups, its time to sort out how ALL of us can best co-exist with increasing numbers of people and users groups in the woods. The idea that this needs to become an all-out "war" between rival groups bothers me. (And I'm not talking touchy-feely stuff either - if the consensus is that certain groups need to be banned from/restricted to certain areas & terrain, that's what should be done).

D.


OK, everyone go get yourself a horse and lets session Fromme! Better yet - bring your ATV!

It is rational to put a limit on type and extent of use regardless of who was there first. Just 'cause grand daddy did it a certain way doesn't cut it today. Recreation land use needs to be sustainable and reflect demographics.

For the record - horses kick the sh1t out of single track and severely impact the MTB experience and recreational trail resource, therefore these uses should be segregated. Just like high speed downhill mountainbiking and XC racing should be segregated from hikers/horses for safety reasons.

Vancouver is a major city and we're well past the time for free-for-all trail use.

[Keefer]

I'm all for sharing trails with horses, but as this has demonstrated, they need to put in time and effort to keep the maintenance up to par for the amount of damage they're doing. Mountain bikers kep the trails up tto par with respect to the damage we're doing.

For some reason, I couldn't imagine seeing horseback riders out for a day having a trail day on one of their trails... maybe I'm ignorant, but isn't soft/muddy trails exactly what they're looking for for their horses?

[Sharon]

The camp brick trails were built by the equestriains so they do have a right to be there. Not to mention the fact that there's very few places horses can ride on the shore

We just rode through the area, while you can see damage from the horses and their deposits... the main damage and widening was caused by the mtb events held there last Month and in the previous 4 years.

Since the trail is so wide now I'm sure we can share...

[umbullit]

heh. horses and bikes will never totally get along..
I share all my trails with motorcycles, hikers, and horses..
it does suck however that they have torn up the trails. The good thing to do would be to avoid trails that are susceptable to easy dammage after a rain storm.

[biking_cam]

dammm camp brick is fun stuff

[Duncan]

The camp brick trails were built by the equestriains so they do have a right to be there. Not to mention the fact that there's very few places horses can ride on the shore


That was my thought ... we have Seymour, Fromme, Cypress and now a bike park at Cypress - and now people are slamming horse riding at LSCR, coming out of the woodwork complaining about "years" of being pushed around by the horse people (wtf is up with that - I'd like to know the whole story). Not that destroying trails is OK by any means - and I'm sure responsible equestrians know that too. We have a lot to be thankful for ... D.

[TheGiggler]

That was my thought ... we have Seymour, Fromme, Cypress and now a bike park at Cypress - and now people are slamming horse riding at LSCR, coming out of the woodwork complaining about "years" of being pushed around by the horse people (wtf is up with that - I'd like to know the whole story). Not that destroying trails is OK by any means - and I'm sure responsible equestrians know that too. We have a lot to be thankful for ... D.

do you ride there? it is some of the few XC on the shore.

to compare it to Seymour, Fromme, Cypress and now a bike park at Cypress shows that you haven't ridden it.

what a surprise... the people who don't regularly ride it don't give a shit and take the supossed high road...

[TheGiggler]

We just rode through the area, while you can see damage from the horses and their deposits... the main damage and widening was caused by the mtb events held there last Month and in the previous 4 years.



i respestfully disagree.

funny how the trail north of the pipe is in quite decent shape, yes it has lots of evidence of the race.

then you go accross the pipe and all of a sudden it's a big mud pit. funny how i rode it the day after the races this year and it wasn't anything like that...

[LeeLau]

statix - take a deep breath man I know you're upset

[Oldfart]

The camp brick trails were built by the equestriains so they do have a right to be there. Not to mention the fact that there's very few places horses can ride on the shore

We just rode through the area, while you can see damage from the horses and their deposits... the main damage and widening was caused by the mtb events held there last Month and in the previous 4 years.

Since the trail is so wide now I'm sure we can share...

That particular piece of trail was not built by the horse folk nor the one above it. There are some around there on the west side of the road which are horse trails. Wide and bark mulchy. Horse trails require a softer resiliant surface to stand up to shod hooves. Hikers need steps on steepest slopes and bike riders need armoured pave for the steep bits. All need bridges over marshes and creeks of any significance.

So much of this stuff is pretty straightforward and simple common sense. The problem is people make groundless arguments based on emotions. Then you need scientific studies, strategic alpine plans and crap like that. I meen come on, it's a god damn no brainer. People parking at the top of Mountain Hwy making asses of themselves and disturbing resisdents? Every one knows the only proper answer is a god damn parking area past the gate up to the water toxers. Make the road wide enough to accomodate angle parking and retain resident only status in front of residences and be done with it. All these studies and crap is mostly, not entirely but mostly a waste of time and resources.

Fact: mountain biking will not go away because a very small minority of frog huggers are displeased with it. There are too many of us, we pay taxes we support local businesses.

Fact: we share the space with the rest of the community so we do have to live with each other and 99% of all of us do. There are only a small number of cry babies who can't play with others.

Fact: parking in front of residences by non residents will always be an issue so there must be suitable parking for users of any damn public recreational facility, indeed stores and other working buildings like offices and hospitals need employee and visitor parking.

Fact: all trail users impact the trail surfaces and wear them out, some more than others. It's been shown in a number of studies that mountain bikes and hikers have very similar impacts. There's more of us so we riders cause more wear as a group. We also do considerable work to fix what we break. Hikers used to that stuff, but hikers have been replaced by riders to a large extent. If there were no mountainbikers, there would be more hikers but probably not close to the same numbers. Riding is simply much more fun than hiking in this day and age of extremeness.

Fact: the North Shore is NOT wilderness. It's at the margin a a very large City. And probably 95% second growth. I cringe evertime some stinkin hippy refers to it as pristeen. I have seen pristine first hand as a former geologist. That ain't pristine. You can hear and smell the city just about anywhere we ride regularly. The wildlife is pretty much used to us. Coyotes and Racoons, skunks and bears all frequent the city. Whether we ride there or not will not change that a bit.

Sorry. Three coffees and a really bad week at work will do this to a guy.

[dirty deeds]

dammm camp brick is fun stuff

yes. it's just Camp Brick and you may scoff at it and say who cares. But the fact is the school kids use it for their XC races and it's one of the only areas on the NS thats suitable for them. We're only talking about 2 short sections of single track. The kids get in there and do the maintenance with NSMBA guys. All the other dirt paths and so forth in the area are shared with the equesdtrians and the equestrians get sole use of all the trails on the other side of the road. It's not too much to ask them not to use the 2 mtb single tracks.

These kids are the future of the sport.

[derwood]

That particular piece of trail was not built by the horse folk nor the one above it. There are some around there on the west side of the road which are horse trails. Wide and bark mulchy. Horse trails require a softer resiliant surface to stand up to shod hooves. Hikers need steps on steepest slopes and bike riders need armoured pave for the steep bits. All need bridges over marshes and creeks of any significance.

So much of this stuff is pretty straightforward and simple common sense. The problem is people make groundless arguments based on emotions. Then you need scientific studies, strategic alpine plans and crap like that. I meen come on, it's a god damn no brainer. People parking at the top of Mountain Hwy making asses of themselves and disturbing resisdents? Every one knows the only proper answer is a god damn parking area past the gate up to the water toxers. Make the road wide enough to accomodate angle parking and retain resident only status in front of residences and be done with it. All these studies and crap is mostly, not entirely but mostly a waste of time and resources.

Fact: mountain biking will not go away because a very small minority of frog huggers are displeased with it. There are too many of us, we pay taxes we support local businesses.

Fact: we share the space with the rest of the community so we do have to live with each other and 99% of all of us do. There are only a small number of cry babies who can't play with others.

Fact: parking in front of residences by non residents will always be an issue so there must be suitable parking for users of any damn public recreational facility, indeed stores and other working buildings like offices and hospitals need employee and visitor parking.

Fact: all trail users impact the trail surfaces and wear them out, some more than others. It's been shown in a number of studies that mountain bikes and hikers have very similar impacts. There's more of us so we riders cause more wear as a group. We also do considerable work to fix what we break. Hikers used to that stuff, but hikers have been replaced by riders to a large extent. If there were no mountainbikers, there would be more hikers but probably not close to the same numbers. Riding is simply much more fun than hiking in this day and age of extremeness.

Fact: the North Shore is NOT wilderness. It's at the margin a a very large City. And probably 95% second growth. I cringe evertime some stinkin hippy refers to it as pristeen. I have seen pristine first hand as a former geologist. That ain't pristine. You can hear and smell the city just about anywhere we ride regularly. The wildlife is pretty much used to us. Coyotes and Racoons, skunks and bears all frequent the city. Whether we ride there or not will not change that a bit.

Sorry. Three coffees and a really bad week at work will do this to a guy.
this is how I feel all the time.^^^

[bcbud]

That particular piece of trail was not built by the horse folk nor the one above it. There are some around there on the west side of the road which are horse trails. Wide and bark mulchy. Horse trails require a softer resiliant surface to stand up to shod hooves. Hikers need steps on steepest slopes and bike riders need armoured pave for the steep bits. All need bridges over marshes and creeks of any significance.

So much of this stuff is pretty straightforward and simple common sense. The problem is people make groundless arguments based on emotions. Then you need scientific studies, strategic alpine plans and crap like that. I meen come on, it's a god damn no brainer. People parking at the top of Mountain Hwy making asses of themselves and disturbing resisdents? Every one knows the only proper answer is a god damn parking area past the gate up to the water toxers. Make the road wide enough to accomodate angle parking and retain resident only status in front of residences and be done with it. All these studies and crap is mostly, not entirely but mostly a waste of time and resources.

Fact: mountain biking will not go away because a very small minority of frog huggers are displeased with it. There are too many of us, we pay taxes we support local businesses.

Fact: we share the space with the rest of the community so we do have to live with each other and 99% of all of us do. There are only a small number of cry babies who can't play with others.

Fact: parking in front of residences by non residents will always be an issue so there must be suitable parking for users of any damn public recreational facility, indeed stores and other working buildings like offices and hospitals need employee and visitor parking.

Fact: all trail users impact the trail surfaces and wear them out, some more than others. It's been shown in a number of studies that mountain bikes and hikers have very similar impacts. There's more of us so we riders cause more wear as a group. We also do considerable work to fix what we break. Hikers used to that stuff, but hikers have been replaced by riders to a large extent. If there were no mountainbikers, there would be more hikers but probably not close to the same numbers. Riding is simply much more fun than hiking in this day and age of extremeness.

Fact: the North Shore is NOT wilderness. It's at the margin a a very large City. And probably 95% second growth. I cringe evertime some stinkin hippy refers to it as pristeen. I have seen pristine first hand as a former geologist. That ain't pristine. You can hear and smell the city just about anywhere we ride regularly. The wildlife is pretty much used to us. Coyotes and Racoons, skunks and bears all frequent the city. Whether we ride there or not will not change that a bit.

Sorry. Three coffees and a really bad week at work will do this to a guy.

Thank you kind sir for seeing the rational thought in all the madness. As you say it is common sense, I have always thought this about the Shore and I don't even live there and have barely ridden there, but been out in BC for the last 6years, just take a step back and see the Shore from the city and its simple to me, 3 ski areas sandwiching the forest below til the houses start, there are 3 roads that travel up those slopes, doesn't take a genious to figure most will venture into that area to see what is happening in the supposed wilderness, its glorified park land, conflict is gonna happen, hopefully ya'll can get a grip and get along...I can see it happening.

[Duncan]

do you ride there? it is some of the few XC on the shore. to compare it to Seymour, Fromme, Cypress and now a bike park at Cypress shows that you haven't ridden it.


I have ridden all over there for the last 10 years. I lived near Cap College for 5 years and rode it regularly then. I occasionally join a riding group who meet in LSCR parking lot every Sunday morning at 9 am.

what a surprise... the people who don't regularly ride it don't give a shit and take the supossed high road...

Say what you want about "the high road" ... if you still think that open hostility to other users of public land is the better alternative, you have missed my point.

There is a fair amount of XC riding on the North Shore (granted some of it is steep - but the last time I checked, this sport was still called "Mountain" Biking). Some XC trails on the North Shore I have ridden over the years that still exist (some I have ridden have no names, some have names I can't remember, some no longer exist. Of course, there are also North Shore XC trails I have never ridden. ):

Seymour/LSCR : Old Buck, Bridle, Mystery Creek, Hyannis, Jack Thompson (Figure 8), Fisherman's, Ridge runner, Bottletop, Neds, Corkscrew, Seymour Powerlines, Incline, Baden Powell, Camp brick, Lillooet Trail (other side of Lilloet road from Camp Brick)

Fromme: 7th-Leppard-Kirkford-Krinkum-Krankum,Griffin, King of the Shore, Another Roadside attraction, Bobsled,St Georges, Baden-Powell, Mountain Highway, Mosquito Creek area

Cypress: BLT, Brother's Creek, Stupid Grouse, Forks, Powerline Trail, Paul Hogan, Moose is Loose, Blind Skier

Don't limit yourself to the North Shore. There are other XC trails within striking distance. You can ride or drive to Burnaby Mountain and ride there. You can ride or drive to Horseshoe Bay, hop on a ferry, enjoy a muffin and then unload onto over 100 km of singletrack on the Sunshine Coast. D.

[Wayne P]

Andy, you are a brilliant man.

[TheGiggler]

thx for pointing out the obvious XC Duncs.

you pretty much proved my point that losing the LSCR xc to horses would really take away from the XC on the shore...

[leverfingers]

We who live in glass houses just can't afford to be hucking rocks around. Period.

[synchro]

Some XC trails on the North Shore I have ridden over the years that still exist (some I have ridden have no names, some have names I can't remember, some no longer exist. Of course, there are also North Shore XC trails I have never ridden. ):

Seymour/LSCR : Old Buck, Bridle, Mystery Creek, Hyannis, Jack Thompson (Figure 8), Fisherman's, Ridge runner, Bottletop, Neds, Corkscrew, Seymour Powerlines, Incline, Baden Powell, Camp brick, Lillooet Trail (other side of Lilloet road from Camp Brick)

Fromme: 7th-Leppard-Kirkford-Krinkum-Krankum,Griffin, King of the Shore, Another Roadside attraction, Bobsled,St Georges, Baden-Powell, Mountain Highway, Mosquito Creek area

Cypress: BLT, Brother's Creek, Stupid Grouse, Forks, Powerline Trail, Paul Hogan, Moose is Loose, Blind Skier

Don't limit yourself to the North Shore. There are other XC trails within striking distance. You can ride or drive to Burnaby Mountain and ride there. You can ride or drive to Horseshoe Bay, hop on a ferry, enjoy a muffin and then unload onto over 100 km of singletrack on the Sunshine Coast. D.


Corkscrew - def not xc
Inlcine - not xc and not mtb at all, hiking only

[Duncan]

Corkscrew - def not xc
Inlcine - not xc and not mtb at all, hiking only

I would say Corkscrew is XC because it was an established bike trail before anybody ever rode a FS bike down it.All the skinny lines and stunts (except the A-frame) are relatively recent. Also, my 6-year-old has ridden down Corkscrew on essentially a fixed gear BMX bike, but given his recent progression, that may not help my argument.

About Incline, I didn't know its official status and little else other than it not steep or technically challenging (last time I went by it, people were bombing down in on DH bikes in full face helmets and armour). D.

[TheGiggler]

if corkscrew = xc

then camp brick trails = gravel 10ft poodle paths

[Duncan]

if corkscrew = xc

then camp brick trails = gravel 10ft poodle paths

You know what, Statix? You're right. In fact, XC riders have no business being on a FR/DH trail.

I should have known that all those years ago when I was riding corkscrew on my Kona Kiluea with Project 2 forks, Joe Murray bar ends and wearing a lime-green day-glo MEC jacket. (I swear I always wanted a pair of Brodie Switchblade forks, but could never afford them - maybe that makes my tresspass a little more forgiveable).

I should have known that when I rode it on my XC bike to rehab my knee after arthroscopic surgery.

I should have known that when I rode it two weeks ago with my 6-year old son with his singlespeed with 16" wheels.

XC riders need to stick to XC trails. Thanks for showing me the benefits of an open mind. D.

[Elson Roa]

has anyone raised the issue with the stables - NSEC?
I know someone who works there if it would help?

[TheGiggler]

You know what, Statix? You're right. In fact, XC riders have no business being on a FR/DH trail.

I should have known that all those years ago when I was riding corkscrew on my Kona Kiluea with Project 2 forks, Joe Murray bar ends and wearing a lime-green day-glo MEC jacket. (I swear I always wanted a pair of Brodie Switchblade forks, but could never afford them - maybe that makes my tresspass a little more forgiveable).

I should have known that when I rode it on my XC bike to rehab my knee after arthroscopic surgery.

I should have known that when I rode it two weeks ago with my 6-year old son with his singlespeed with 16" wheels.

XC riders need to stick to XC trails. Thanks for showing me the benefits of an open mind. D.

if it's a pissing contest you want ... meh, i used to ride corkscrew and all the stunts on a fully rigid. still does not make it xc ... unless you are on glue.

[Duncan]

if it's a pissing contest you want ... meh, i used to ride corkscrew and all the stunts on a fully rigid. still does not make it xc ... unless you are on glue.

Cool - I don't ride any of the stunts except the A-frame on my XC bike. D.

[DaveM]

You know what, Statix? You're right. In fact, XC riders have no business being on a FR/DH trail.

I should have known that all those years ago when I was riding corkscrew on my Kona Kiluea with Project 2 forks, Joe Murray bar ends and wearing a lime-green day-glo MEC jacket. .

Ned's used to be a XC climb up too. Trails change.

For two guys that probably share the same ideals, Duncan and Statix sure bitch at each other alot. Are you guys secretly married?

[Duncan]

Are you guys secretly married?

No, but somebody oughtta tell us to get a room. D.

[Ned]

with a wireless camera and a microphone and a...

[TheGiggler]

everyone knows that statix guy is a real asshole ... ;)

[Rat]

Its like watching Kohut and LeClerk go at it. Quite entertaing actually.

There is a lack of flowy XC on the shore although there is quite a bit of climb/decend stuff, but what do I know im a shuttlewhore.

[LeeLau]

Ned's used to be a XC climb up too. Trails change.

For two guys that probably share the same ideals, Duncan and Statix sure bitch at each other alot. Are you guys secretly married?

haha. You know I'm the most retro and have the best collection of scars! Besides I ride gmg with seat up and 150mm stem so THERE

[Wayne P]

Besides I ride gmg with seat up and 150mm stem so THERE


I'll take the money that I was going to spend on the Cyps park and pay to watch that.

[derwood]

ok,I need specifics on trail locations....I know the rules....but these are widely known XC trails I assume.....

My girl just got a XC bike and its time for school....

[synchro]

haha. You know I'm the most retro and have the best collection of scars! Besides I ride gmg with seat up and 150mm stem so THERE

bah!

harcore id doing some trail running up corkscrew in steel toed workboots, a chainsaw in one hand and a 50lb bucket of tools in the other. wheeled trasportation is for pussies

[TheGiggler]

bah!

harcore id doing some trail running up corkscrew in steel toed workboots, a chainsaw in one hand and a 50lb bucket of tools in the other. wheeled trasportation is for pussies

you know it. so far this year building has hurt more than riding ...

[DaveM]

you know it. so far this year building has hurt more than riding ...

I'm batting even. I knee blowout riding, 1 knee blowout building. All in 1 month. I'm not sure which one tore my ACL and cartlidge.

[Couch_Surfer]

and have the best collection of scars!

Lee's legs have scared many a small child in the past...

... and probably in the future.

[LeeLau]

Lee's legs have scared many a small child in the past...

... and probably in the future.

eff- i went by cypress and forgot your dvds again! dohhhhhhhh. I will remember i promise!