What size cedars are best?

[Cannonball]

Howdy,

Lookin' to build structures using cedar. We have access to local cedar (Ottawa area), but I've heard the cedars cut by the local mill aren't mature/big enough to exhibit the strength and/or natural weatherproof characterisitics cedar is known for. Anybody know anything about this on here?

What should I consider when looking for cedar? Does the tree have to be a certain size?

Any info would be greatly appreciated.
Thanx in advance.

[allex]

dont cut a live tree just to get rungs..

[Coop]

is it western redcedar?

[Tom P]

Originally posted by Coop
is it western redcedar?

eastern red cedar if its in ontario. the reason it doesnt have the same strength and rot resistance as western red cedar is cuz its not actually a cedar, its a juniper! (Juniperus virginiana) :eek:

I think that it will be very hard to find deadfall of the size required to split rungs from (because they are smallish trees), but i've never been to ontario so i am just guessing at that one.

http://www.dnr.state.oh.us/forestry/Education/ohiotrees/images/202/cdot02/cdot02-04.jpeg

[NooNer]

junipers are such lame trees. if you gotta drop a tree for rungs you're not looking hard enough. or if its for fun, bigger is better.

[Cannonball]

I'll be more specific.

It's Eastern White Cedar.
I'm not looking to use small pieces for rungs. Deadfall cedar is not readily available where we're building, let alone in large enough pieces to be useable. I'll be buying cedar end pieces/scraps from a mill. Some mills let the Eastern White grow large enough before harvesting.

1) What do you consider the minimum size (girth) to be useful for building? Assuming you are splitting the logs to use as rungs.

2) Is there a technique for splitting the logs to minimize loss and optimize surface area?

Thanx again.

[Coop]

It's dependant on
a) how much traffic its going to get
b) how wide your rungs are going to be
c) how much force is going to be applied (landings vs. bridges, etc.)

but I'd say generally anywhere from about an inch and half thick to as big as your nails can reach.

and I always try to have it so you have edgegrain (?) being split, so that its got optimal weathering characteristics. I'm not a great one to ask about not wasting though, I am usually working from a 30" diameter tree, where you throw out the heartwood and split pieces off the remaning outer ring.

[DaveM]

Originally posted by Cannonball


2) Is there a technique for splitting the logs to minimize loss and optimize surface area?

Thanx again.

This is the best thing we've found for splitting rungs. Perfect every time, and exactly the size you need.

http://www.leevalley.com/images/item/woodworking/logbuild/82u0401s2.jpg

[Coop]

on the left: froe
on the right: deadblow hammer

you can get the froe from Lee Valley if you are having trouble finding one back east.

[Universe]

Werd. Here is mine.

http://www.universe.bookerb.com/froe1.jpg

[trail worker]

get a dealdblow hammer for the fro, too. we still havn't gotten around to getting one and our fro is almost so mushroomed from hitting with a small sledge that it is hard to split shakes with now. you more or less have to grind the mushroomed section down every once and a while depending on how much your using it to make it work.

[Cannonball]

Originally posted by Coop
It's dependant on
a) how much traffic its going to get
b) how wide your rungs are going to be
c) how much force is going to be applied (landings vs. bridges, etc.)

but I'd say generally anywhere from about an inch and half thick to as big as your nails can reach.

and I always try to have it so you have edgegrain (?) being split, so that its got optimal weathering characteristics. I'm not a great one to ask about not wasting though, I am usually working from a 30" diameter tree, where you throw out the heartwood and split pieces off the remaning outer ring.


A) the structures will be built on lift accessed trails. Open weekends and one weekday.
B) Width will vary depending on design (skinny to bermed roller coaster). Range 12" to 48" .
C) No landings, just bridges.

Sounds like even our largest Eastern White (8" diameter) is barely big enough for spliting. Will give it a try.

Thanx

[synchro]

so you're building a bike park and asking a bulletin board for help on how to make rungs? this should be good.

just use dimensional cedar lumber. your structures will go together a lot faster and be a lot safer.

[Uncle Duke]

Originally posted by davet
This is the best thing we've found for splitting rungs. Perfect every time, and exactly the size you need.

http://www.leevalley.com/images/item/woodworking/logbuild/82u0401s2.jpg

having split maybe 1000 cedar shakes in the past 3 yrs I will say you cant split shit w that dead blow hammer.. I have the exact same one . I use it when Im working on my bike.

like it or not if you are splitting wood en masse w/ a froe you will need to keep buying them. the top flat edge eventually mashes out just like tw said.

or maybe you can get a wooden dead blow hammer but it will; need to have some serious heft. all but the very nicest of cedar requires more elbow impact grease than that little plastic dead blow in this pict.

[synchro]

i just use an axe and wedges and a 5lb sledge - works fine for me

[derwood]

Originally posted by Cannonball
A) the structures will be built on lift accessed trails. Open weekends and one weekday.
B) Width will vary depending on design (skinny to bermed roller coaster). Range 12" to 48" .
C) No landings, just bridges.

Sounds like even our largest Eastern White (8" diameter) is barely big enough for spliting. Will give it a try.

Thanx

Camp Fortune?

[DaveM]

Originally posted by duke
having split maybe 1000 cedar shakes in the past 3 yrs I will say you cant split shit w that dead blow hammer.. I have the exact same one . I use it when Im working on my bike.

like it or not if you are splitting wood en masse w/ a froe you will need to keep buying them. the top flat edge eventually mashes out just like tw said.

or maybe you can get a wooden dead blow hammer but it will; need to have some serious heft. all but the very nicest of cedar requires more elbow impact grease than that little plastic dead blow in this pict.

I just used the picture to reference the fro. I didn't know what a deadblow hammer was until someone mentioned it in this thread. We just use a sledge hammer too.

We used to use wedges, but this fro works 100 times better. We still need to use the wedges sometimes in a knotty piece. Darryl likes the fro so much, I think he sneeks it home with him sometimes.

[Uncle Duke]

Originally posted by davet
I just used the picture to reference the fro. I didn't know what a deadblow hammer was until someone mentioned it in this thread. We just use a sledge hammer too.

We used to use wedges, but this fro works 100 times better. We still need to use the wedges sometimes in a knotty piece. Darryl likes the fro so much, I think he sneeks it home with him sometimes.

yea I didnt think that was your pict as that froe hasnt even been tapped on yet.;)

I just wanted to pooint out that if somebody is using a froe they will need something solid to hit it with.


wedges also work very well for making rungs, but I have found for the sweet-wider- rungs you will need a froe.:D

:cool:

[RITALIN]

i have and ida for stopping the frow handle from mushrooming
take a peiceof sheet metal and bend/wrap it tightly around the end and about halfway down the shaft...then rivet it or use a hose clamp...that should prevent mucschrooming?

[DaveM]

Originally posted by RITALIN
i have and ida for stopping the frow handle from mushrooming
take a peiceof sheet metal and bend/wrap it tightly around the end and about halfway down the shaft...then rivet it or use a hose clamp...that should prevent mucschrooming?

Never used a fro before eh?

You don't hit the handle, you hit the fro and pry with the handle.

[Coop]

You can get bigger deadblow mallets than that - I agree it looks pretty wussy.

I dont think you can get a "wooden dead blow" because the whole idea is that the head is filled with lead shot that isnt prone to bouncing.

I used to use a sledge but I found it hard on the arms and I hate wearing safety goggles while I use it (and I dont want a piece of mushroomed steel shooting into my retina).

[Uncle Duke]

Originally posted by Coop
You can get bigger deadblow mallets than that - I agree it looks pretty wussy.

I dont think you can get a "wooden dead blow" because the whole idea is that the head is filled with lead shot that isnt prone to bouncing.

I used to use a sledge but I found it hard on the arms and I hate wearing safety goggles while I use it (and I dont want a piece of mushroomed steel shooting into my retina).

you need heft. i talked w some old shakers and was told to make a wooden mallet/hammerv from yew wood. in absense of that apparently you can use arbutus..must be hard..I am pure hick using a sledge on froe no goggs...but I will start wearing googles tomorrow.

[LadysmithRyders]

Been There, Done that. Getting a piece of metal stuck in your retina is not a pleasant experience. They have to cut your eye open, suck all the juices out, use their teeny computer powered tweezers and pull the piece of metal out. They miss the first time, and ram the tweezes into your retina making your vision perminatly worse. Wake up a few hours later, your face is numb, you cant stop the drool. Hey at least you have a hot looking nurse takin' care of yah.

Anyone that is working on trails, take my advice, wear eye protection whenever possible. Being partially blind in one eye really screws up your life.

[wilkez]

Originally posted by Cannonball
I'll be more specific.

It's Eastern White Cedar.
I'm not looking to use small pieces for rungs. Deadfall cedar is not readily available where we're building, let alone in large enough pieces to be useable. I'll be buying cedar end pieces/scraps from a mill. Some mills let the Eastern White grow large enough before harvesting.

1) What do you consider the minimum size (girth) to be useful for building? Assuming you are splitting the logs to use as rungs.

2) Is there a technique for splitting the logs to minimize loss and optimize surface area?

Thanx again.


the smallest thing i have ever split for rungs probably had a diameter of at least a foot. that would be pushing it, you might get 2 rungs from that if you are lucky. and i dont think the white ceadar wood splits very nicely. once i found a huge deadfall tree that we bucked up, and it was some kind of white/yellow ceadar wood and the thing was a bitch to split. but you can test it out anyways

as for splitting, go to your local hardware store and buy 4 or 5 plastic splitting wedges (in the chainsaw section probably). get youreslf a mallot or some kind, and find a natural split in the piece of wood you want to split. tap one in just so it stays, then put the rest in a l ine across the wood. then you get to play the xylophone (sp?) and bang em across the wood. should split like a charm

[thedude]

Originally posted by LadysmithRyders
Been There, Done that. Getting a piece of metal stuck in your retina is not a pleasant experience. They have to cut your eye open, suck all the juices out, use their teeny computer powered tweezers and pull the piece of metal out. They miss the first time, and ram the tweezes into your retina making your vision perminatly worse. Wake up a few hours later, your face is numb, you cant stop the drool. Hey at least you have a hot looking nurse takin' care of yah.

Anyone that is working on trails, take my advice, wear eye protection whenever possible. Being partially blind in one eye really screws up your life.

Ouch^^^^

I am now going to be packing my safety glasses to the trail.

I have used a froe on many occasions. I have also destroyed 4 froes......mushrooming, breaking the handle or the breaking the weld on the handle.

When I break a froe, I simply resort to using 2 axes and a 3 1/5lb small sledge.

I score a line across the cedar about a 1/4" - 1/2" deep then drive the 2 axe heads into the wood and as Wilkez said.....play the xylophone. After a few hits the plans pop off like perfection. This method seems to be a little more efficient than a froe because at times it take several blows to a froe to start the blade into the wood. Another problem with froes is that the blades tend to get dull pretty fast and it then makes it difficult to start the blade in the wood again. Froes work well in PERFECT wood, if there are any irregularities they often can run into problems.

People that have used a froe likely know what I am talking about. They work really well, but at times are more of a hassle than they are worth. A couple axes and a small sledge work really well in making rung especially when the wood is not PERFECT.

Here is a pretty (http://www.pinkbike.com/modules/photo/?op=view&image=254130) picture of a bridge where the rung was made with a froe.

Later.

[TheGiggler]

yeah if it wasn't for the noise and mushrooming of the axe i would only use axes and a mini sledge for splitting... i love the clean cuts the axe does vs. the plastic wedges.

[Uncle Duke]

plastic wedges?

[synchro]

Originally posted by duke
plastic wedges?

yeah, plastic wedges work great. nice and light and easy to carry around. split a line across the top of your block with the axe and then start pounding the wedges in

[Uncle Duke]

there you go, I wouldnt have thought plastic ones would work so good for splitting.... I use them if I get my saw stuck..I have some steel wedges I use like you describe.

[TheGiggler]

plastic work awesome when theres no knots.

but you'll quickly trash em on knots... at least i always do

[synchro]

Originally posted by duke
there you go, I wouldnt have thought plastic ones would work so good for splitting.... I use them if I get my saw stuck..I have some steel wedges I use like you describe.

you know all the rungs and mini railroad tries i've split on my trail duke? all done with the plastic wedges

[TheGiggler]

Originally posted by synchro
you know all the rungs and mini railroad tries i've split on my trail duke? all done with the plastic wedges

yea, but you yourself have admitted that you have load and loads of cedar to pick the highest quality stuff. not everyone is as lucky... when you're using blowed down re-gen 'cause that's all you got, the plastic can really suck :)

[synchro]

i've had to split a lot of knotty shigt with the wedges too. that's why i have four. you can still get nice rungs from knot filled wood if you have enough wedges and attack it properly

[Uncle Duke]

Originally posted by synchro
you know all the rungs and mini railroad tries i've split on my trail duke? all done with the plastic wedges

that totally suprises me.live and learn.

[Wes]

If this is for a park, I would really suggest dmensional cedar. If you can afford it, go for 2x6 for rungs... you can land, launch, bridge, or do naything you want with this stuff. Plus its super fast and easy to work with.