Trail Signage

[Smoke]

If you saw this:


http://www.bushpilotbiking.com/05logpics/ETIKET.gif



would you know what it meant?

[trout]

Stay on the picnic table. :o

[Niggz]

Stay on illigally built structure :D
I think writing STAY ON BRIDGE might just be easier though......

Actually the best would be picture and writing I think. Most signs are like that. Like the clean up after your dog has picture and words.

[Greenspringer]

Excellent. I agree with a little wording added as well.How about one that shows a bike and hiker. Meaning ,that said structure is fine to walk on but be aware of bikers.??

[Smoke]

I'm trying to avoid text.

There's more than just english out there, and we are an international destination.

Being aware of other users goes without saying. It's the tendency of people to walk around stuff instead of over it that we're trying to discourage. The Gerbil Cage on CBC used to surrounded by green.

[heckler]

In that case, you need a picture of the guy that fell off, or chickened out, and then a picture of him climbing back up onto the bridge with his bike on his back, and then walking the bike across the bridge.

Not likely.

Rather, build a low sidewalk bridge for the go arounds or fall offs.

[derwood]

You have a good idea there,but it is a bit vague.......maybe some simple markings like they use in ski area terrain parks with a explanitory sign a the trail head would work a little better.

Think you could design one to discourage the little bags of poo all over the rifle range??:)

[Smoke]

Originally posted by heckler


Rather, build a low sidewalk bridge for the go arounds or fall offs.

WALK ON THE BRIDGE, NOT ON THE GROUND!!

Get it?

[derwood]

With regards to the gerbil cage.....people will always fall off the logrides,sign or no sign.If its a true concern,it should be runged and 2 feet wide.:)

[heckler]

I hear ya Smoke, but when you fall off something, it's not likely you're going to climb back up onto it when it's 2 or more feet off the ground.

[trillion]

I'm all for signage but I'm also all for ride arounds and proper fall zones. I think its gonna be pretty hard to convey the msg you're after without words.

[brock]

Dogs, People, and Bikes should ride skateboards on stilts?

[Smoke]

What I've noticed is that people will walk through a swamp up to their nutz before they walk along the logs.

If you fall off, well, you fall off. But climbing back onto the log is the proper thing to do.

It never ceases to amaze me, but I actually give lessons on how to walk your bike on skinny stuff.

The plan is for the Gerbil Cage to have a hardened bail line at the end, but a bit of riders Ed. would go a long way to minimising the need for it.

Good feedback though. Keep it coming.

Personally, I'd rather not have a ton of signs and crap out there polluting the visual (some kind of hippy anthem comes to mind) but education is key in getting riders to be less impactful.

Ride dont slide
Stay on the damn bridges already (this includes your dog)
Easy out, this way
Stunts, that way

Feel free to add some more. Stupid suggestions will be mocked and ridiculed.

[derwood]

sign pollution will be minimized if they are mounted at ground level beside the trail leading into the affected area:)

On a side note....not all dogs are as dexterous as yours and instinctively take the easy line.....prettyl tough to make MY dog follow me up a stunt...never mind the rung spacing issue

[heckler]

And PLEASE no plastic orange safety fencing like up on Seventh Secret.

And no foam padding around trees, like I've seen at other mtb places (much) further east.

Do dogs read signs? Do riders leash thier dogs on the trail?

I teach people how to walk on logs with thier bike too. One hand on handle bar and on the front brake, other on seat. Roll the front wheel while walking next to the seat, holding the rear wheel out over the log. It works great.

[Smoke]

That's the technique, for sure.

The dog thing is a bit tougher. It's training, training, and more training.

Like any of these issues, its the spirit of the thing. You gotta make the effort, knowwhatimean? If we can educate the ignorant, then there won't really be a problem.

Behaviour modification 101

"This way little sheep, this way"

"Baaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa"

[bunny]

i refuse to teach my dog to run over a stunt that she can have her legs broken in between the rungs or that she could break a leg jumping off the end. sorry smoke but i've taught my dog NOT to follow me over some stunts.
also i thought it was a joke and we should all ride skateboards. :P

[Smoke]

Yeah, it's not really that big of a deal (yet), BUT:


If we are being told to stick to the trails, and that there is little difference betwen a hiker and a biker, then it follows that a dog is similar to a hiker/biker and should stay to the established trail.

..and I don't think that CBC will be breaking any puppies in half, but when you see the dog tracks through the swamp, you KNOW it's not a good thing.

[Niggz]

so I tucked my hair up under my hat.......

[wilkez]

and i went in to ask him why

[switch]

Originally posted by Smoke
The Gerbil Cage on CBC used to surrounded by green.

That's a myth. It's always been a bog.

[synchro]

people are always going to fall off structures. that why you create fall zones that are clear of obstructions 4-6 feet off either side of the structure. if you want to keep inexperienced riders off a structure then the entrance has to be the most difficult part. got a 6" wide skinny? make the entrance 3" wide for the first couple feet or so. but as people advance their skills and courage they will inevitably crash.

the real problem is getting people to walk the trail feature (if possible) instead of just riding around and creating a new line. if the trail feature cannot be walk then you should provide an alternate line. no amount of signage will keep ignorant or selfish people from doing what they want. even if you tell them in person not to do something one week, there's a good chance they will come back the next and do it again anyway.

better bikes and more riders means this is something we will have to put up with.

by the way, the best way to walk your bike across a structure is to stand it up on the back tire, hold the handlebars and push it across like this

http://www3.telus.net/marks_stuff/walk

[derwood]

uhhhh there is an alternate line around the cage......if you ban falling off of it,Im taking up birdwatching.

[amg]

Originally posted by bunny
i refuse to teach my dog to run over a stunt that she can have her legs broken in between the rungs or that she could break a leg jumping off the end. sorry smoke but i've taught my dog NOT to follow me over some stunts.
also i thought it was a joke and we should all ride skateboards. :P

Me too. No ladder bridges unless there is absolutely no other option - ie, a huge ravine or something.

The dog sign is cute though.

[switch]

Originally posted by amg
Me too. No ladder bridges unless there is absolutely no other option - ie, a huge ravine or something.

That's why rungs should be spaced closer together - no more than an inch or so apart. There only needs to be enough space between them so dirt will go through. A large space isn't just bad for dogs - it's bad for riders too.

[Smoke]

Originally posted by synchro
no amount of signage will keep ignorant or selfish people from doing what they want.

No....signage will cut that down to just selfish people.

The only reason why i'm considering signage in the first place is the sheer number of people who simply don't know any better. It's sort of like the skier mentality that follows tracks into avvy terrain.

"they did it so it must be ok"

A little edumacation is all I'm trying to acccomplish, and I'd like to do it in as small away as possible.

[switch]

I don't think people understand trail ratings. They see a name on a plaque, with some colours and stuff. This is only a problem if the trail is advanced. Perhaps something like the following could be used to designate advanced trails:

http://www.answers.com/main/content/wp/en/9/96/Toxic.png

[bighitter]

Originally posted by Smoke

If we are being told to stick to the trails, and that there is little difference betwen a hiker and a biker, then it follows that a dog is similar to a hiker/biker and should stay to the established trail.

..and I don't think that CBC will be breaking any puppies in half, but when you see the dog tracks through the swamp, you KNOW it's not a good thing.

so are you gonna make wild animals take the bridge too?hey there deer....if you don't take the bridge theres gonna be some hunters shooting your ass on the other side of the bog....

i think the amount of people who ride with dogs is limited. i for one will NOT train my dog to use a bridge.

although he does often know which ones he can walk and which ones he can't.

don't get me wrong i'm all for PEOPLE keeping to bridges just not dogs.

[Smoke]

no no.... you missed the point.

We are guests in the forest.

The wild animals actually live there. If only a few of us are in the area, then we can pretty much do as we please.

But when 400 riders a day roll through then we gotta do things a little differently.

I don't take my dog everywhere (as much as I'd like to). It's not always appropriate.

Shit dude, relax. It's not that big of a deal. Just use a little common sense and try to make all of your impacts positive.

[Butters]

Which Structure is the Gerbil Cage?? If its the parrallel log rides with the plank between them, your dog will figure out the route around the top of the swamp. Its the easy line at the end of the big ladder. I rode my dog that way once and now he knows to meet me on the other side. Dogs will always take the path of least resistance.

[Smoke]

Last try.....

MAKE AN EFFORT

[Lady Gravity]

nice signs smoke, would look nice on a shirt :P

seriously though, good luck - most people aren't going to stop long enough to read a sign

[Farmer]

Originally posted by switch
That's why rungs should be spaced closer together - no more than an inch or so apart. There only needs to be enough space between them so dirt will go through. A large space isn't just bad for dogs - it's bad for riders too.

exactly, that way if for some reason a rung breaks, it can still be ridden. With big spaces, a broken rung means a closed ladder or a really big space that is harder to ride over

[synchro]

Originally posted by Farmer
exactly, that way if for some reason a rung breaks, it can still be ridden. With big spaces, a broken rung means a closed ladder or a really big space that is harder to ride over

rule of thumb for rungs is they should be just close enough apart so that if you turn your foot sideways it won't fall through the gap. basically about 2-3".

sometimes put mine a bit closer together tho, it really depends on the structure. if it's a ladder on the ground then the rungs should be further apart to prevent them from packing up with mud. if the ladder or rung section is elevated then they can be closer together.

[Johnie P]

Smoke has been riding these trails longer than most people who post here.I think his point is to be able to ride them for a lot longer. The population on the trails grow every year so we all need to put in an effort to make less impact. try less bitching and more helpfull sugestions. Comparing wild animals to mountain bikers or family pets is one of the dumbest things i have ever read.

[derwood]

Originally posted by Johnie P
Comparing wild animals to mountain bikers is one of the dumbest things i have ever read.

ever been on Seymour on a sunny sunday,,,like today?

[synchro]

i am curious to see if any of the braids i blocked on fri have been unblocked tomorrow

[bighitter]

Originally posted by Johnie P
. Comparing wild animals to mountain bikers or family pets is one of the dumbest things i have ever read.

if your your talking about my post, i never said mtb'ers i said dogs. if you think my dogs little paw prints does more damage then a deer or coyote........

[Smoke]

Originally posted by bighitter
if your your talking about my post, i never said mtb'ers i said dogs. if you think my dogs little paw prints does more damage then a deer or coyote........

I see you're an engineer. I guess that explains the social skills.


On the other hand, if you want to be a responsible user of the forest, you have to consider every impact. Mountain bikes and dogs are not indigenous to the temperate rain forest. Deer and coyotes are. They have had millenia to adapt to this environment (well, the coyotes are more recent, but they are taking up the niche left by the absence of wolves. Besides there are only about ten coyotes in the area. There are thousands of dogs).

Dogs do a great deal of damage to the more sensitive areas, like the swamps under the bridges. Those are the areas that will be of the greatest concern to the land managers. They also disturb wildlife in more invasive ways. Dogs chase prey. It's their nature. Introducing large numbers of predators into any system is bad news for the locals. At least they aren't killing, but there are very good reasons why you can't take your pets into wilderness preserves.

DNV has already said that they are especially concerned about the preservaton of riparian habitat. It will be the biggest factor in developing the management plan. CBC crosses several riparian zones.

If you can't keep yourself or your dog on the beaten path in the sensitive old growth areas, maybe consider leaving Fido at home on those days when you choose to ride there.

On the flipside, I saw a marten on the trails yesterday. At least I'm pretty sure it was. It seemed a little big for a marten (it was a bit smaller than Harley, but a bit bigger than a housecat). Def. too small to be a wolverine. Fisher maybe? Anyway, super cool little animal.

[Robot]

Originally posted by Smoke
On the other hand, if you want to be a responsible user of the forest, you have to consider every impact. Mountain bikes and dogs are not indigenous to the temperate rain forest...

Well put.

[bighitter]

Originally posted by Smoke
I see you're an engineer. I guess that explains the social skills.


so your judging my social skill by my trade....do you judge people by their color too?

appearently were getting pretty mixed on who's talking about what.

my dog has pretty good trail etiquette
http://www3.telus.net/bgioia/samsonskinny.jpg
http://www3.telus.net/karaleen/spring%20mtb%20trip/SCsamson.jpg
http://www3.telus.net/karaleen/spring%20mtb%20trip/SCsamson2.jpg
http://www3.telus.net/bgioia/whistler/river3.jpg

in this pic you'll notice he's on the side of the trail....rather then a bridge that comes to an end.
http://www3.telus.net/bgioia/samsonlounging

i don't train him to follow all the stunts...he get's to choose and he does a danm good job.

so i guess you leave harley at home when ever you ride the shore or in the lower mainland?how many pictures and video's have i seen harley on?does harley drink from ponds and creek when on a ride?does harlley follow you off of the boogey man drop?

really i just wanted to post pictures of my dog and this seemed liked a good time to do it :D

i think i understand what your saying, all i'm saying is training your dog to stay on woodwork could be a bad thing.i've seen dogs follow there owner out on to bridge work, it comes to a drop, the dog turns around and falls through the bridge and hurts it's self.i don't think you would wish that on harley and i certainly don't wish it on my dog, samson.

most people compliment me on my dogs behavior on the trails.

[bighitter]

just thought i'd post one more. you'll see samson sitting on the side, waiting for everyone to do the drop.
http://www3.telus.net/bgioia/sept%20pics/vedder/dropbry.jpg

[AnTi-TrAiL_nAzI]

That is totaly awesum.. next thing you need to do is get your dog to start hucking.. i can just picture it now.. you railing all the airsupply jumps and your dog following u in the air:D

[TheGiggler]

you know what pisses me off about dogs... how they shit everywhere and spread non-indigenous seeds into the forest.

fromme is going to be overtaken by holly or whatever that shit is called. it's not natural and it's fucking ugly.

then you have dogwalkers with 5-10+ animals who do NOT stick to trails...

as far as i'm concerned, the average dog has a way HIGHER impact that any rider or hiker.

[Mr Ripper]

I had my mini daschaund out hiking today for her first time on a trail. It took a few groups for her to stop barking at other riders. But she did really well. She rules the log rides but has some troubles with rungs due to small paws, but she is learning.

[bighitter]

Originally posted by Mr Ripper
I had my mini daschaund out hiking today for her first time on a trail.
that must be a sight to see, there little legs running to beat hell. i had 2 of them before. i really liked them, awesome little dogs.

[bighitter]

Originally posted by statix
spread non-indigenous seeds into the forest.



personally i have never seen my dog or anybody else's eating berries of any type......now bears on the other hand.

i can totally relate to the dog walker thing though. i think i've seen groups a large as a dozen. it would be pretty hard to keep control or a watchful eye on a bunch that large.

[TheGiggler]

Originally posted by bighitter
personally i have never seen my dog or anybody else's eating berries of any type......now bears on the other hand.

i can totally relate to the dog walker thing though. i think i've seen groups a large as a dozen. it would be pretty hard to keep control or a watchful eye on a bunch that large.

not berries, but other non-indigenous plants. i should really back this up with proof, but i've heard it numerous times. and hiking on fromme, the 'holly' or whatever the plant is called is growing from the edges of trails... and the farther of the beaten path, the less there is. it's not natural it's from people and/or dogs spreading seeds around.

and some dog walkers just bush whack their own paths. it's not that they can't control the dogs (youre right, they often can't -- i've even been told this by one unsually honest dude), it's that A) they don't care and B) by bushwaking they encounter less hikers/riders like me who will be a little choked when they're surrounded by 10+ barking dogs.

anyways

[bighitter]

my dog likes to eat wood. broken branchs or twigs....seems to be some kind of treat, with cedar be a popular one.

i'm sure what your saying is likely true.never new that.

[switch]

Originally posted by bighitter
just thought i'd post one more. you'll see samson sitting on the side, waiting for everyone to do the drop.

And you're dogging is probably thinking "carnage - carnage -carnage". :D

[derwood]

Originally posted by statix
you know what pisses me off about Synchro is how he spreads non-indigenous seed into the forest.



thats why its taken so long..........:eek:

[synchro]

Originally posted by derwood
thats why its taken so long..........:eek:

ha ha ha

how's the truck?

btw, did you hear about the recall today from Dodge on the 2002 ram's?

apparantly the asshat shaft becomes lodged in the driver

[derwood]

thats what feels SOOOOOOO good!


I get it tomorrow.........my neck is getting redder by the minute!:thepimp:

[synchro]

wanna come build for a few hours tomorrow morning?

[amg]

Originally posted by Smoke
I see you're an engineer. I guess that explains the social skills.


On the other hand, if you want to be a responsible user of the forest, you have to consider every impact. Mountain bikes and dogs are not indigenous to the temperate rain forest. Deer and coyotes are. They have had millenia to adapt to this environment (well, the coyotes are more recent, but they are taking up the niche left by the absence of wolves. Besides there are only about ten coyotes in the area. There are thousands of dogs).

Dogs do a great deal of damage to the more sensitive areas, like the swamps under the bridges. Those are the areas that will be of the greatest concern to the land managers. They also disturb wildlife in more invasive ways. Dogs chase prey. It's their nature. Introducing large numbers of predators into any system is bad news for the locals. At least they aren't killing, but there are very good reasons why you can't take your pets into wilderness preserves.

DNV has already said that they are especially concerned about the preservaton of riparian habitat. It will be the biggest factor in developing the management plan. CBC crosses several riparian zones.

If you can't keep yourself or your dog on the beaten path in the sensitive old growth areas, maybe consider leaving Fido at home on those days when you choose to ride there.

On the flipside, I saw a marten on the trails yesterday. At least I'm pretty sure it was. It seemed a little big for a marten (it was a bit smaller than Harley, but a bit bigger than a housecat). Def. too small to be a wolverine. Fisher maybe? Anyway, super cool little animal.

This will probably be an unpopular opinion, but if the area is highly sensitive, take down the stunt so people aren't falling in the sensitive riparian area and route the trail around or beside rather than through it. Or run a low wide bridge so people won't fall off into it - then climbing back on wouldn't be an issue. Also, most dogs I've known would rather stay on a bridge through a swamp, and if the rungs are close enough that they won't break a leg if they hit it too fast then it isn't a problem.

Cool if it was a fisher you saw. I've only ever seen marten and weasels - and a couple of wolverine. They aren't that big, maybe the size of your dog? The female weighed about 30lbs, I think. I wouldn't think they'd be in Vancouver though. I'm not sure about fisher being here either. If it helps figure it out, marten are yellowish, sometimes with a patch on their chest. Mink can be quite dark, and are roughly the same size as marten.

[amg]

Originally posted by statix
not berries, but other non-indigenous plants. i should really back this up with proof, but i've heard it numerous times. and hiking on fromme, the 'holly' or whatever the plant is called is growing from the edges of trails... and the farther of the beaten path, the less there is. it's not natural it's from people and/or dogs spreading seeds around.

anyways

Are you sure it isn't just Oregon grape? That stuff looks kind of holly-ish.

[switch]

I love eating Oregon grape - the sprouts. Tasty.

[Tom P]

Originally posted by amg
Are you sure it isn't just Oregon grape? That stuff looks kind of holly-ish.

No it is definitely Holly. It's growing all over the delta watershed as well. I always stop and rip some out of the ground mid ride. Can't wait to get busted by a dog walker doing that - "OMGZ the crazy mountain bikers are tearing up the plants of the forest!!" :eek:

However I am pretty sure it's birds that are spreading the holly seeds, as I've seen birds chowing down on the berries of the holly in my folks garden.

[amg]

Originally posted by .f|oW.
No it is definitely Holly. It's growing all over the delta watershed as well. I always stop and rip some out of the ground mid ride. Can't wait to get busted by a dog walker doing that - "OMGZ the crazy mountain bikers are tearing up the plants of the forest!!" :eek:

However I am pretty sure it's birds that are spreading the holly seeds, as I've seen birds chowing down on the berries of the holly in my folks garden.

Yeah, I can't see any dogs eating the berries, I'd guess that it might actually be poisonous for them, although I don't know for sure.

Get a little speech ready about how you're saving the forest from the invasive non-native species for people who think pulling holly up is damage. Can't do much about people except try to educate them.

[bighitter]

Originally posted by .f|oW.


However I am pretty sure it's birds that are spreading the holly seeds, as I've seen birds chowing down on the berries of the holly in my folks garden.
that would make more sense

[Sunday Rider]

Instead of signs waht about stringing a grab rope beside the log ride & above the swamp?

[Adralien]

I'll add my 2 cents...

Entrance Exam:

Make the hardest part of the Gerbal Cage before the swamp. Right now the swamp crossing is the hardest, and people are bailing out there. If you can get them to bail out earlier (there's already a bail out after the sky bridge) then they're bailing on dirt not swamp. That would reduce the # of people getting to the swamp crossing.

[Tom P]

I agree with what AMG says above. If your goal in building the structure is to protect what is underneath the structure (ie swamp or creek) than the structure should be easy enough that no one is going to fall off. Even people who regularly clean the gerbil cage will likely fall off it once in a while when having a bad day.

Save the tech skinnies for above dry ground. my $0.02

[switch]

Originally posted by .f|oW.
I agree with what AMG says above. If your goal in building the structure is to protect what is underneath the structure (ie swamp or creek) than the structure should be easy enough that no one is going to fall off. Even people who regularly clean the gerbil cage will likely fall off it once in a while when having a bad day.

Save the tech skinnies for above dry ground. my $0.02

:werd:

[LeeLau]

Originally posted by Adralien
I'll add my 2 cents...

Entrance Exam:

Make the hardest part of the Gerbal Cage before the swamp. Right now the swamp crossing is the hardest, and people are bailing out there. If you can get them to bail out earlier (there's already a bail out after the sky bridge) then they're bailing on dirt not swamp. That would reduce the # of people getting to the swamp crossing.

hey adrian - in retrospect that ladder bridge going on the gerbil cage was waaaaaaaaaaayyyy tooo wide.

[Adralien]

Lee, you're thinking of the A-frame skybridge? Could the first 10 feet of that bridge be a 5" wide skinny so the first thing a rider sees when leaving solid ground is 10 feet of uphill skinny? If they can't ride that they probably won't walk past it. Add some signage there too ("Sensitive area: if you can't ride this take the trail on the right" or fromme style blue/black indicators)

People are going to fall into the swamp too, Jeremy mentioned he might put a raised bailout path on the right which would be cool, but signage (AKA Smokes original idea 5 pages ago!) would tell people to get back on the wood! I've cratered there a few times.

[Sharon]

Originally posted by .f|oW.
No it is definitely Holly. It's growing all over the delta watershed as well. I always stop and rip some out of the ground mid ride. Can't wait to get busted by a dog walker doing that - "OMGZ the crazy mountain bikers are tearing up the plants of the forest!!" :eek:

However I am pretty sure it's birds that are spreading the holly seeds, as I've seen birds chowing down on the berries of the holly in my folks garden.

Then you would think the holly would be evenly dispersed, not concentrated alongside trails.

has anyone noticed the holly TREE where boogieman crosses the NSHA loop! :eek:

[Tom P]

Originally posted by Sharon
Then you would think the holly would be evenly dispersed, not concentrated alongside trails.

My theory on that is that the holly seeds prefer to germinate in exposed mineral soil (like cedar and other spp.) and therefore they are germinating in the soil along the edges of trails. I think the increased light levels reaching the forest floor along trails (due to decreased shrub cover) also benefits the holly.

If you are out in the Delta Watershed and stop and look around, you will see that holly is also growing in the understory well away from trails. I think this is do to the very shallow duff layer in the shed.

**EDIT** from http://www.friendsoftrees.org/tree_resources/invasives.php


English holly
Ilex aquifolium

Family: Aquifoliaceae

English holly is an escaped ornamental which often invades upland forests and the edges of wetland areas. Its bright red fruits are dispersed by birds. English holly often grows into a tall, thick-trunked tree. Male and female flowers are borne on separate trees.

Characteristics:

leaves very stiff with sharp spines along tips and margins
leaves dark, glossy green, leathery texture
flowers small, creamy white
fruits small, round, bright red

[switch]

Originally posted by Adralien
Lee, you're thinking of the A-frame skybridge? Could the first 10 feet of that bridge be a 5" wide skinny so the first thing a rider sees when leaving solid ground is 10 feet of uphill skinny? If they can't ride that they probably won't walk past it. Add some signage there too ("Sensitive area: if you can't ride this take the trail on the right" or fromme style blue/black indicators)

People are going to fall into the swamp too, Jeremy mentioned he might put a raised bailout path on the right which would be cool, but signage (AKA Smokes original idea 5 pages ago!) would tell people to get back on the wood! I've cratered there a few times.

One thing that is also bad/dangerous is left over material used to build the structures. I bailed off the log in the gerbil cage (to the left), and twisted my ankle pretty bad because of a 4" square piece of scrap cedar. Like WCB man says, keep your work sites clean. :)

[DaveM]

Stop dogs from running around in the bush, at what point does this become rediculous? The builders of a trail will do more damage trudging around looking for rocks, dirt, logs, deadfall than a dog will ever make. Can we not hike in the bush if there isn't a trail? We're not in rare, pristine parkland here guys, it's a forest, most of the province is covered with it. If it's so eviromentally sensitive that a dog can't run around freely, or footprints are causing irrepairable damage, then there sure as hell shouldn't be a mountain bike trail through it.

[synchro]

Originally posted by davet
Stop dogs from running around in the bush, at what point does this become rediculous? The builders of a trail will do more damage trudging around looking for rocks, dirt, logs, deadfall than a dog will ever make. Can we not hike in the bush if there isn't a trail? We're not in rare, pristine parkland here guys, it's a forest, most of the province is covered with it. If it's so eviromentally sensitive that a dog can't run around freely, or footprints are causing irrepairable damage, then there sure as hell shouldn't be a mountain bike trail through it.

now that's a dangerous statement.

[DaveM]

Not really Mark. I'm not saying the trail shouldn't be there, more like who cares if someone's dog is running around shitting in the woods.

But if the area is so enviromentally sensitive that that any non-native species causes irrepairable damage, then no one should be in there and there should be no trails running through it. I don't know of any area that fits that description.

What's next, should I bring a broom to sweep my tracks in the loam over after I walk behind that stump to take a leak? Or should I be carrying a container to pee in too?

[TheGiggler]

Originally posted by davet
Stop dogs from running around in the bush, at what point does this become rediculous? The builders of a trail will do more damage trudging around looking for rocks, dirt, logs, deadfall than a dog will ever make. Can we not hike in the bush if there isn't a trail? We're not in rare, pristine parkland here guys, it's a forest, most of the province is covered with it. If it's so eviromentally sensitive that a dog can't run around freely, or footprints are causing irrepairable damage, then there sure as hell shouldn't be a mountain bike trail through it.

cough, cough, Bullshit.

ever see commerical dog walkers with 10-15 dogs making their own trails?

not only have I seen this, the proof is ALL over fromme, on their bushwaked trails.

builders impact are noticeable, but NO WHERE on the same level in terms of area of terrain affected.

hike fromme every day for a few weeks and you may just agree...

[synchro]

hey dave, just saying it's a dangerous statement from the pont of view of the naysayers to mtbing, that's all. i def agree that we need to relax things a little bit.

[DaveM]

I hear ya, maybe I should delete my post. The Crist/Craver camp has been quiet lately. No need to give them ammo they can take out of context and use against us. What do you think?

Hi Monica
Hi Ernie
http://users.pandora.be/ramones/emoticon/moon.gif

[Smoke]

It just comes down to numbers. The really popular trails are seeing so many riders now that we are going to have to manage our behaviour in ways that we didn't really forsee. This is why CBC is getting "paved" just like we have to pave city streets. Ohterwise it will just degrade to the point where we prove the naysayers right.

You're right, a dog by itself doesn't do any damage, just like a rider by himself doesn't harm anything. It's when you put a couple hundred a day down the same line that you gotta watch what your impacts are. The levels of usage are high enough that the environment won't repair itself, so we have to contain our activity to a "strip" also known as a trail.

If dogs start making other lines, then we are increasing our ecological footprint and effectively making more work for ourselves. It's exactly the same thing as braiding the trail. A sub-group of users is making a new line, and widening the existing trail in an uncontrolled way.

The original aim of posting those little doodles is to get a discussion going about how to educate the riders to minimise our impacts (mission successful I think). I see people walking off trail every day, and 90% of them just didn't know any better.

"Think global, act local," as we used to say in the 20th century.

[synchro]

Originally posted by Smoke
It just comes down to numbers. The really popular trails are seeing so many riders now that we are going to have to manage our behaviour in ways that we didn't really forsee. This is why CBC is getting "paved" just like we have to pave city streets. Ohterwise it will just degrade to the point where we prove the naysayers right.

i'm hoping that we can start doing things so that there is no need to pave the trail. one method is to create catch basins at strategic points to catch all the dirt that gets washed off the trail. once the pit fills up with sand you can mix it back up with all the loose rocks on the side of the trail to end up with some gold dirt again. that dirt can then be redistibuted back onto the trail. you would still need to install some rock braids across the trails to contain the dirt but at least it would eliminate having to rock whole sections of trail. we would also look that much more environmentally friendly.

[Smoke]

Yeah, silt dams are becoming a necessity. It also helps protect creeks from silting up. I have a feeling that really busy trails will still have to be rocked in pretty hard though. Anywhere that people lock up the wheels will need to be rock.

We have to put boughs on the trails too. Having the mineral soil directly exposed to tires and runoff just makes it blow out in a few days. If you look at the really smooth parts of trails, you will see a mix of dirt and little twigs that makes it nice and springy. I think that boughs will act like a net to hold the soil in place longer.

Anytime you see branches that have been blown down, trim 'em up and toss em on the line.

[Adralien]

thinking about impact of MTB... there will always be some impact to our actions, the goal is to reasonably minimize that footprint...

Syncro's idea of minimizing "paving" while minimizing damage is good... it also reduces the amount of work from volunteers. I'm sure there are lots of trail builders who have the experience now to know what works and what doesn't... there should almost be a manual on what works for the shore!

On Fromme sections of Oilcan (i.e. most) has been rocked in for years, and no-one has had to trundle rocks through the woods for ages... the rocked trail saves the impact on the surrounding area. (which is minimal and occasional for trail maintenance)

If we stay at thousands of riders a week on trails like CBC the only solution is rocks and good design. Riding on virgin duff is going to be a thing of the past, rolled out to wow the grommits while we sit around the natural gas fireplace eating veggie dogs and drinking lo-cal beer.

[TheGiggler]

Originally posted by Smoke
Anywhere that people lock up the wheels will need to be rock.



= 95% of most shore trails :rolleyes:

i'm sorry, but this is my pet peeve. oh well, people can learn on CBC when it's all paved ;)