Mountain Bikers on CKNW - 10:30-11:30 Monday [Archive] - North Shore Mountain Biking Forums

thewwkayaker

03-07-2005, 10:11 AM

Why does everyone insist on talking with Crist and Monica? They win points this way in two instances:

1) every response to them validates that their opinion (e.g. if they said that pigs can fly you'd just ignore them because that's just silly, but by arguing with them you give some credence to what they claim)

2) this is what Crist lives for - he loves contraversy. What would he do if no one argued with him? It's like inviting an Evangalist into your home to have a debate. Do you think you're going to convert him??? But the Evangalist is having the time of their life!

The best defense is to IGNORE these people, provide polite, factual evidence about the benefits as well as proof of sustanability to the people who matter - the other councilers and to the newspapers (when necessary). Never mention or discuss any points made by Crist or his few "special" friends directly. If there are points of concern just provide the information in a factual way and make no reference to why you are providing the info at that point.

Anyways - I figure that by arguing with these people it just hurts the cause and creates frustration (in addition to a few people who get so frustrated that they forget to act respectively - it happens to everyone at times).

Remember angry people LIKE arguing and being angry, much like we like to ride bikes.

polytics

03-07-2005, 10:26 AM

Originally posted by couch@nsmb.com
My favorite so far is an "asshat" for some reason I think that is hilarious.

I like ASSFalcon. Aside from that I have to agree with the above post. It is best to discuss our side with the reasonable (if such people exist) proponents of the other side. Ignore the Zealots, and certaintly don't make matyrs out of them.

cam@nsmb.com

03-07-2005, 10:34 AM

These are really good points. We add fuel to the fire and I'm the most guilty of all. It's so damn tempting though!

Originally posted by thewwkayaker
Why does everyone insist on talking with Crist and Monica? They win points this way in two instances:

1) every response to them validates that their opinion (e.g. if they said that pigs can fly you'd just ignore them because that's just silly, but by arguing with them you give some credence to what they claim)

2) this is what Crist lives for - he loves contraversy. What would he do if no one argued with him? It's like inviting an Evangalist into your home to have a debate. Do you think you're going to convert him??? But the Evangalist is having the time of their life!

The best defense is to IGNORE these people, provide polite, factual evidence about the benefits as well as proof of sustanability to the people who matter - the other councilers and to the newspapers (when necessary). Never mention or discuss any points made by Crist or his few "special" friends directly. If there are points of concern just provide the information in a factual way and make no reference to why you are providing the info at that point.

Anyways - I figure that by arguing with these people it just hurts the cause and creates frustration (in addition to a few people who get so frustrated that they forget to act respectively - it happens to everyone at times).

Remember angry people LIKE arguing and being angry, much like we like to ride bikes.

KNine

03-07-2005, 11:47 AM

For those not listening. In the first it segment it sounded like Mr. Crist stated that riding in forrest is banned all over the world. I know down here in Washington. I can ride in the forrest.

Danksi

03-07-2005, 11:58 AM

Listening now.

Can't call, but sent email:

Hello Bill,

I've just joined your show in time to hear Councillor Crist's seemingly informed argument that Mountain Biking should be restricted to hard surfaces and that countries in Europe have banned Mountain Biking from forests and steep locations.

As British ex-pat who has travelled within Europe I can say with confidence that this is not the case at all. Forestry commissions within both the UK and Europe not only allow Mountain Biking in forested areas and steep locations, they provide mixed as well as dedicated trails to both Hikers and Mountain Bikers.

I would be very interested to hear Mr Crist's list of banned areas in the 'World', because I suspect these 'banned' areas are far fewer when compared to the 'authorised' areas.

Regards,
Alan Danks

Ex-Brit & now North Vancouver

LuckyFish

03-07-2005, 11:58 AM

HAHAHAAHAAHAAAH!!!! Crist is getting annihilated! credibility? what is this credibility you speak of?

Axl

03-07-2005, 12:05 PM

i don't think crist is getting annihilated. in fact, he got to speak for MUCH longer than anyone else on that show. he knows how to take a question and get HIS message out. the bikers should learn the same lesson - it does no good to challenge Crist on stupid point like whether he has ever been on the trail. how will you ever win that? and who cares anyway.

the bikers should have used this opportunity (and Gary Jackson started to) to just state their case. Bill Good had to practically twist Gary's arm just to say whether or not there is a ban anywhere - and then guess what!? - he had to admit that there are bans somewhere.

if we are going to beat the likes of crist we should stop focussing on what he is saying and just say what we want to. putting out a positive message is much better than taking stupid, irrelevant pot-shots at crist.

that's my two cents. it was frustrating to listen to because many reasonable people listening to that program will probably conclude that crist is right. we didn't offer much of a positive vision.

anyway, i commend the people who went on the show but had to show my frustration for how it went. fortunately shows like that are not the place where these issues get decided. hopefully more rational heads will prevail in the right forum where actual decisions are made.

Danksi

03-07-2005, 12:12 PM

William from New York raised a good point about the building of trails that reduce the impacts of errosion over time. As far as I'm aware this is exactly what NSMBA and others have been doing over the years.

cam@nsmb.com

03-07-2005, 12:22 PM

Why didn't you call Axl?

Originally posted by Axl
i don't think crist is getting annihilated. in fact, he got to speak for MUCH longer than anyone else on that show. he knows how to take a question and get HIS message out. the bikers should learn the same lesson - it does no good to challenge Crist on stupid point like whether he has ever been on the trail. how will you ever win that? and who cares anyway.

the bikers should have used this opportunity (and Gary Jackson started to) to just state their case. Bill Good had to practically twist Gary's arm just to say whether or not there is a ban anywhere - and then guess what!? - he had to admit that there are bans somewhere.

if we are going to beat the likes of crist we should stop focussing on what he is saying and just say what we want to. putting out a positive message is much better than taking stupid, irrelevant pot-shots at crist.

that's my two cents. it was frustrating to listen to because many reasonable people listening to that program will probably conclude that crist is right. we didn't offer much of a positive vision.

anyway, i commend the people who went on the show but had to show my frustration for how it went. fortunately shows like that are not the place where these issues get decided. hopefully more rational heads will prevail in the right forum where actual decisions are made.

Vps Hucker

03-07-2005, 12:26 PM

hahaha go Race Face. ya they come to whistler from germany to ski because they can't ski in germany...... wait a minute they CAN ski in germany :lol:

thewwkayaker

03-07-2005, 12:26 PM

Sigh - we can't win via these debates. Crist does this for a living and he loves doing it. He can make people believe that the sky is green by using counter points: You say "the sky is blue", Crist says "what colour is it right now? Blue?" You say" well no it's grey right now because it's cloudy but that doesn't make it green". Crist says "we have determine that it's NOT blue right now, yet you said it's blue, you are therefore incorrect"

Notice how he just needs to manipulate what you say and then make your statement look false - this validates his statement even though it's incorrect. Facts aren't important when presented in this fashion.

As I said, we need to ignore him and others like him and concentrate on giving out the FACTS. Don't debate him.

Yes Cam, I know it's hard to resist - which is why he's happy right now (he's drawing you to the "dark side", but at least you won't find out he's your father! :-p

KNine

03-07-2005, 12:27 PM

My cable went down for about 25 minutes. I am catching the last 4 minutes. Is there anywhere i can listen to a replay of the show?

stillgoing

03-07-2005, 12:33 PM

Was that Ernie, or just a broken record?

Farmer

03-07-2005, 12:36 PM

How many times did Crist change his argument in that thing. Then when he said that noone had stopped to thing about what was needed and to look at the area I almost called in and asked him if he had ever heard of the alpine strategic update survey or whatever the hell it is called. I still want to know if he has been up there to do anything but take down trails. Sure there are some trails up there that could use a bit of work in certain spots but he realy seems to be out of touch with reality

Danksi

03-07-2005, 12:38 PM

Originally posted by KNine
My cable went down for about 25 minutes. I am catching the last 4 minutes. Is there anywhere i can listen to a replay of the show? ]

They may have it available on the Website. You could always try emailing Bill and ask. 'good@cknw.com'

Bill read part of my above letter and I notice Mr Crist ignored the point about the trails in the UK and Europe being forested (i.e. not paved/hard surfaced).

Compared to the trails I've ridden in the UK and France, the Mt.Fromme trails are as advanced as Highway 1 in places!

Axl

03-07-2005, 12:46 PM

i'm in ottawa right now and have no phone, otherwise crist would have felt my wrath!

one other point that could have been made is that crist is speaking his own personal views only. crist does not speak for the DNV. he should be reminded of that every time he goes public. in fact, if i recall correctly, he has been defeated when he brought this or related issues forward in the past.

it think someone mentioned something like this already in the forums, but the mayor should be called on to get out there to clarify things and to really speak for DNV.

Axl

03-07-2005, 12:47 PM

i think the show is in the audio vault on the cknw site.

couch@nsmb.com

03-07-2005, 12:48 PM

Originally posted by KNine
My cable went down for about 25 minutes. I am catching the last 4 minutes. Is there anywhere i can listen to a replay of the show?

CKNW has an audiovault that will allow you to listen to the show. I think they leave it online for 2 weeks.

http://www.cknw.com/audiovault/audiovault.cfm

Rich

Danksi

03-07-2005, 12:52 PM

Originally posted by Axl
the mayor should be called on to get out there to clarify things and to really speak for DNV.

Definately, Crist talks of shutting access to Fromme so that discussions can be had, when the Alpin Study is already in full swing.

Crists continuing 'personal' comments come across as council spokesman.

Bukkake

03-07-2005, 12:58 PM

After listening to Ernie Crist speak I am no longer afreaid of him. He is a total idiot. :lol:

Danksi

03-07-2005, 01:00 PM

Originally posted by "Bukkake"
After listening to Ernie Crist speak I am no longer afreaid of him. He is a total idiot. :lol:

... but he's also a member of Council and has a say in matters.

Bukkake

03-07-2005, 01:03 PM

Originally posted by Danksi
... but he's also a member of Council and has a say in matters.

but before he can make anything happen he has to make others agree with him, and lying on the radio doesn't help.

He said the trail builders cut down live trees that's a lie.

Danksi

03-07-2005, 01:06 PM

He does need support, but it's one less vote for us.

LuckyFish

03-07-2005, 01:10 PM

crist's position is that biking on fromme and other steep rainy mtns is unsustainable and should be restricted, correct? so our counter argument, or the point we need to make as a group is not just a contrary point: "is not! is so!", but rather that biking trails, when built and maintained propery have minimal impact on the environment, and a beneficial impact on the local economy? is that what we need to focus on? exactly what points do we need to raise, not how much we love our sport

Danksi

03-07-2005, 01:13 PM

Originally posted by LuckyFish
..trails when built and maintained propery have minimal impact on the environment, and a beneficial impact on the local economy?

I think William from New York made this point very well on the radio and I agree it's one of the counter arguments required.

Vps Hucker

03-07-2005, 01:16 PM

Originally posted by "Bukkake"
He said the trail builders cut down live trees that's a lie.

well we know this already. telling us isn't going to change anything. we can't just keep sitting here and telling eachother how wrong he is because everyone here already knows how wrong he is. and the more and more we complain about it to eachother the less it's getting out to the people that don't know and need to know.

p.s. sry Bukkake but your post was just the most available one. nothing against you :D

Bukkake

03-07-2005, 01:43 PM

Originally posted by Vps Hucker
well we know this already. telling us isn't going to change anything. we can't just keep sitting here and telling eachother how wrong he is because everyone here already knows how wrong he is. and the more and more we complain about it to eachother the less it's getting out to the people that don't know and need to know.

p.s. sry Bukkake but your post was just the most available one. nothing against you :D

I tried calling but couldn't get through, it doesn't matter tho cuz this guy is nothing to be afraid of.

He's just an old man that is too stubborn and entrenched in his view of things and no amount of articulate argument could ever cause him to change his position.

I think all the other city councilors recognize the positive impact MTB has on the community and are just letting old Ernie say his piece until the next election comes up and then he'll be gone.

To be honest the guy sounds a little senile.

ronald55555

03-07-2005, 02:43 PM

I think one of the really good point was how much hours NSMBA has put into trail maintenance, and the condition of fromme might be worse without their maintenance.

KenN

03-07-2005, 03:02 PM

Hey all,

Here's my take from behind the mike ...

The original plan was a 1/2 hour show, and CKNW called us and changed it to a full hour on Friday! Dan and I were kind of worried we wouldn't have enough material to fill an hour. Hell, we could have used two hours.

Some good points here in this post. Dan and I said as much as we could, but Bill runs the show and he has to let everyone have a chance, so we have to share with Crist and all the other callers.

I had about 20 solid facts lined up in front of me and maybe had a chance to get 3 or 4 of them out. But, most of the callers made some of my points for me, so it's even better that it comes from different sources.

I REAAAAALLLY wanted to expose his BS line about everything closing up in Europe. That is out-and-out dead wrong. I had a list of 10 places in Europe where mountain biking is fully supported, on public land, IN THE FORESTS, and with public monies. That's because their health-oriented culture supports this healthy activity. Never got the chance, but EC still couldn't name any places went put to the test, so almost as good. Too bad though cause it was a perfect chance to expose a bald faced lie.

I also REAAAAALLY wanted to point out that the NSMBA 2004 membership list has over 900 members and more than 300 of them are DNV residents. Crist says he represents his constituents, but sure as hell not those 300. I'd be surprised if he can find 300 voters that are a rabidly anti-mountain biking as he is.

Yeah, maybe we could have said more, but there just wasn't the time. I disagree that it's good exposure for Crist, though. He made some statements and couldn't back them up. That doesn't help his cause. Overall, the callers made solid points and Crist provided absolutely no coherent defence.

Kn.

blunt boy

03-07-2005, 03:22 PM

Funny how none of the voters he is apparently represents called into the show to support him. Maybe they didn't want to be publically linked to Crist or someone disconnected Monica's phone for the day.:D

Danksi

03-07-2005, 04:21 PM

Originally posted by KenN
I REAAAAALLLY wanted to expose his BS line about everything closing up in Europe. That is out-and-out dead wrong. I had a list of 10 places in Europe where mountain biking is fully supported, on public land, IN THE FORESTS, and with public monies

I tried to get this point across in my email, which Bill partly read out on the show, unfortunately the point seemed to be lost and Crist went back to saying Forested trails and Steep sections are banned.

I've legally ridden plenty of public trails in Scotland, Wales and England and there are more and more being made available. France has had it's VTT network, which is dedicated to riders, for years. These countries also have dedicated hiking and horse riding trails, which run along side each other without issue. A lot of the trails are mixed, again without issue.

It seems Crist keeps preaching to those who don't have any idea of the 'world' outside of North America - I believe most people see beyond that these days.

CraigH

03-07-2005, 05:13 PM

More comments in this thread:
http://bb.nsmb.com/newforum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=55392

Farmer

03-07-2005, 07:52 PM

Did anyone notice how Crist bacicaly said the guy from New Zealand was full of shit. Thoses weren't his exact words but after someone said that they had ridden all over New Zealand and there were only a couple spots that were closed and Crist said that there were places all over New Zealand that were closed and the guy was wrong

cam@nsmb.com

03-07-2005, 09:34 PM

Originally posted by "Bukkake"
He said the trail builders cut down live trees that's a lie.

Actually it's not a lie. Some trail builders have cut down trees in the past. I won't mention names but I know this to be true. At the same time the number of trees we are talking about is unbelievably low considering all the work that has been done. I also think that there have been times when Dist. staff have mistakenly identified stumps from dead standing timber as live. Or perhaps there were split trees that were doomed and falling over but that may not have been evident.

I'm not condoning the practice but I do know that the frequency has been greatly exagerated. I once saw where a builder had cut a tree that was blow down. He must have been an inexperienced saw operator because he didn't realize that the root pad was going to right itself. In the end it looked like a tree had been fallen when in fact a stump had been erected.

I think that conscientious trail builders do not cut live trees but to say it never happens is untrue. Even the District staff who went in to demolish Watchumacallit took down some live trees to abide by Workers Compensation Board regulations

If we expect truth from the other side we need to be scrupulous about this as well.

AlanB

03-07-2005, 10:58 PM

Christ loves conflict. Let's not give him what he wants.

Point out that the NSMBA has supported inappropriate trails being closed.

Point out that no one is suggesting that bikes be allowed everywhere.

Point out that he's not helping with any solutions. He did not attend a single of the alpine recreation plan public forums.

AlanB

03-07-2005, 10:59 PM

And kudos to Ken and Dan for keeping their heads while sitting in the same room with him.

CraigH

03-07-2005, 11:10 PM

Actually Ernie was on the phone. Dan & Ken were in the studio. (or that is what I understood)

Vps Hucker

03-07-2005, 11:38 PM

what has actualy been done about anything that Crist has said? has he said anything about closing a trail and it happened? if not i'd say just leave him to rant and say whats on his mind so he can get it out of his system. when and if something is actualy going to happen, such as banning mtb'ing on fromme, then and only then will we stand up and say something. because honestly, i want people to think that we're not such horrible evironment-hating people. but in reality what are they going to do about us? they know they'll never stop us from doing what we spend so much time, money, blood and sweat over, ever.

so let him have his fun trying to provoke us into having 12year old high-school arguments with him. he's damaged his credibility so much that (i think) nobody is going to take what he says seriously (or as seriously) because of whats already been said. just wait until he says something that makes trails start to close then we can stand up and stop it. we all know the facts. i'm not saying we're all right, i'm saying we all know the FACTS.

until something like this happens lay off of him and leave him alone. us retaliating is only making him laugh and keep going. it's like so many other situations i.e. high-school bullies: (no i'm not saying he's a bully) they crave the attention and do and say whatever, even if it's not true, to make people react. when you stop listening to them and just not give a damn what they have to say because you know what their trying to do then they get frustrated and give up and move onto something else to frustrate people on. all he's done is looked for something that will strike a chord with people and get them all flustered and give him the attention he craves so badly.

DaveM

03-08-2005, 12:00 AM

Originally posted by Vps Hucker
just wait until he says something that makes trails start to close then we can stand up and stop it. we all know the facts. i'm not saying we're all right, i'm saying we all know the FACTS.

Once trails start to close it's too late, the deal will be done.

The District seems to see through big Ern's B.S. but it wouldn't be the first time we've all seen government decisions made regardless of the facts.

It would just be nice if they'd put a muzzle on that rabid dog.

Vps Hucker

03-08-2005, 12:09 AM

Originally posted by davet
The District seems to see through big Ern's B.S. but it wouldn't be the first time we've all seen government decisions made regardless of the facts.

then why are we arguing with him?

DaveM

03-08-2005, 12:14 AM

Because without opposition, there's no one to discredit his statements. How do you think we ended up where we are today? The squeaky wheel gets the grease, and they did alot of squeaking at the beginning. It started out just as a parking issue remember? People who don't know the issues only know what they hear. If he's the only one they're hearing, that's trouble.

Vps Hucker

03-08-2005, 12:39 AM

k sry i meant why would we continue to argue with him. everyone already has a pretty strong opinion about what he says. i'm almost (almost!) ready to say we could just sit back and whatever he says nobody would listen. and every now and then we pop up and say how much work we put into so-and-so trail. screw what he thinks. lets not focus on how wrong he is, instead everytime he says all we do is ruin the trails we'll state how many ppl joined the nsmba last year and approx. how many hours we've put into trails. and maybe even bring in before and after pics or our work. cuz pictures and video would blow whatever he says out of the water.

maybe that would also encourage people to come out and build. we could have themed build days such as "work out of spite day" or have signs at the top of CBC saying "if you poach this trail, Crist is winning"

switch

03-08-2005, 01:16 AM

Not one piece of factual evidence Councillor Crist - in fact, he was lying again. Callers from around North America accurately refuting him. The host of the show coming as close as you can to outrightly calling him a liar. Councillor Crist stating more than once that it is his "personal" opinion, one that we all know is as uninformed an opinion as they come. That was a great show (except for too many commercials, lol).

It's great having Crist speak. He's the representative of the very, very few people who have an issue with mountain biking, and his representation has been horrible, at best. He should quit while he's behind. But he won't, so he should continually be engaged so that he will continue to bury his foot deeper into his mouth.

Vps Hucker

03-08-2005, 01:18 AM

he's just a :fruit:

Tom

03-08-2005, 01:48 AM

Originally posted by Vps Hucker
. everyone already has a pretty strong opinion about what he says. i'm almost (almost!) ready to say we could just sit back and whatever he says nobody would listen.

Don't forget the thousands of people who listen to CKNW and vote in North Vancouver who are not mountain bikers. They don't have a strong opinion about what Big Ern says about mountain biking. The only thing they know about mountain biking is what they hear on shows like that and read in the papers. If they only hear his lies and flip-flops, they will beleive it. They will believe that mountain biking in forested areas is banned around the world. They will beleive that we're out to destroy Mt. Fromme. As long as that crackpot is getting media attention, we have to make sure we're right there with the FACTS.
And unfortunately, I don't think Ernie is going anywhere. There was a post in another thread that showed the results of the last DNV election which was only a few months ago and he was in the top 3 for Council.

Vps Hucker

03-08-2005, 02:06 AM

ok so how bout instead of always coming back at his lies whenever he spits them out lets just ignore his idiocy and pretend he's not there. but instead what we do is everytime we do something good like a trail day we announce it. and we'll provide info even though nobody has asked us for our opinions. just like he does; nobody asks him if he thinks what we're doing is wrong. he just states his mind and tries to get his opinion across. so why don't we just go buy some big poster board stuff and make posters of info with pics and facts and a couple days whenever we can go sit at Granville st and Georgia in that little stage area and just chat with people and get them informed of what we do. hell i'll bring my BBQ and cook for those who show up (i think i just spent my next paycheck saying that ;) ) maybe even put on small demo's to entertain people. like setup some small skinnies or ladders or whatever. i don't care what it is, just as long as we can go out in the sun and sit and chat with people and tell everyone what we're doing and how we go about doing it.
ya never know, we could maybe even get people off the sidewalk coming help out on trail days! i know when i first read about trail days i was all excited and wanted to go.
any and all of this would be so beneficial to our cause that whenever Crist opened his mouth to say something negative about us people would (maybe, just maybe) think "wait a minute, i remember those guys and girls who were there the other day. they weren't so bad! it was kinda fun watching them hop around and do whatever they do. and i've seen pics of the work they do so this Crist guy, i think, is wrong" and think twice about when they vote.

i have alot more ideas and even more enthusiasm, energy and determination to get all of this going (i think its cuz i'm just getting over being sick :( ) so i look forward to hearing from anyone who wants to come with me to go buy some poster board or gather all relevent info.

trillion

03-08-2005, 10:09 AM

"In Hawaii, in the United States, in New Zealand..."

lol

buzzes

03-08-2005, 10:11 AM

With all the coverage E. C. gets in the local papers etc. I think it is absolutely necassary that he be challenged publicly on his position.

He NEEDS to be discredited through local media etc. before the general public gets swooned by his grandious blanket statements that have virtually no factual backing.

In NS News and the Courier he consistently gets to put out BS statements with no counter opinions presented for at least a week. The general public just scans it and goes, "F'n mountain bikers......"

He has been ignored in the past and we now know that he is driven. I think pretending he doesn't exist is dangerous. He will continue to raise artificial awareness to his cause through the weak local media so I feel we must be diligent to keep counter punching.

THanks, Dan and Ken for doing an awesome job. Great job from the callers too~!

Many nieve listeners will heard Crist make an absolute ass of himself on the radio yesterday. He lost some support yesterday for sure.

buzzes

03-08-2005, 10:15 AM

I am curious;

Does anyone know why Crist is so against the Mountain bikers?

He has claimed many reasons for not wanting us on Fromme, but what is his real agenda?

It's obviously not environmental stuartship, and he was having a fit about us long before the million dollar parking lots were proposed.

Some research needs to be done here.
What's in it for him?.......................hmmmmmmmmm!?

aShogunNamedMarcus

03-08-2005, 10:20 AM

Originally posted by Vps Hucker
lets not focus on how wrong he is, instead everytime he says all we do is ruin the trails we'll state how many ppl joined the nsmba last year and approx. how many hours we've put into trails. and maybe even bring in before and after pics or our work. cuz pictures and video would blow whatever he says out of the water.

I think we have to give some focus to how wrong he is b/c if we dont, then as its been said, it'll be assumed as true.

Ideally to me, we should selectively call him on specific's that we know that he states as false. I honestly dont think saying over and over again how many hours we work and members we have is going to garner much support. Even if we meet him half way on such things as trail closures, but pro-active trail closures that we take upon ourselves and the land owners will help discredit him (such as CBC). When we have the air time, we should've mentioned that if its such an environmentally unsound sport, why did we have DNV Parks people out at the last trail?

I just sent a letter to the DNV Mayor and I"m eagerly waiting for the reply.

aShogunNamedMarcus

03-08-2005, 10:22 AM

Originally posted by buzzes
Some research needs to be done here.
What's in it for him?.......................hmmmmmmmmm!?

Exposure in an Election year. My general thoughts on this are that people will at least think he's doing something. It may not be what they want but he's not sitting around doing nothing.

It'd be great if another Councillor stepped up to oppose him.

Troup

03-08-2005, 11:03 AM

Originally posted by "Bukkake"
but before he can make anything happen he has to make others agree with him, and lying on the radio doesn't help.

He said the trail builders cut down live trees that's a lie.
You never know, there are probably some that do, but it doesn't justify it by saying that builders are destroying nature. Riders are stoked on the outdoors and with Fromme being one of the three local mountains widely used, mountain bikers will just be short one more mountain. They're called mountain bikes for a reason.
Approaching these situations with a calm attitude always works better than being rude and gnarly.

CraigH

03-08-2005, 11:06 AM

One point that has never been mentioned is that Fromme is not a first growth forest, I'd bet most DNV residents don't know that. It was cut in the 1920s & 30s (as a guess from seeing the signs on Cypress).

Hiking & biking trails through a second growth forest will do substantially less damage than cutting all the trees down, and the ecology of the mountain was still able to recover, (although there is still a lot of evidence of the logging operations on the mountain ~80 years ago).

That might be an interesting angle for a newspaper article. Historic photos from logging operations on Fromme (probably available from the DNV archives) vs. hiking & mtn biking trails now.

switch

03-08-2005, 03:52 PM

Originally posted by CraigH
One point that has never been mentioned is that Fromme is not a first growth forest, I'd bet most DNV residents don't know that. It was cut in the 1920s & 30s (as a guess from seeing the signs on Cypress).
There was logging up there until the 70s.

Ernie Crist, the environmentalist. :lol:

In the late 90s, the GVRD asked the DNV to take owership/stewardship of the lands behind Fromme. Everyone in Council voted against it, except for Councillor Crist. He said the DNV should take responsibility for it so that they could guarantee it would remain pristine and no roads and stuff would be put in there.

A few years later he says that using an existing trail network (on a mountain that was clearcut) is not environmentally sound, and that we should go back into the old growth ("hinterland) and carve a mountain bike park.