More correspondance

[cam@nsmb.com]

Start at the bottom.

Dear Ms Craver,

The only 'authorized' trail on the North Shore is the Baden Powell. That means that all existing hiking trails (aside from the Baden Powell) as well as mountain bike trails that have been there for 20 years are equally legal or illegal depending upon your perspective. Your omission of this point undermines your credibility. It also means that if you hike off the Baden Powell your activities are just as 'illegal' as ours.

As far as being an easy target I would suggest that it is the disinformation you send publicly to council and fonvca.org that has mountain bikers notice you. You suggest that our motives for maintaining the Baden Powell trail are disingenuous and that we act only out of self-interest. This is terribly insulting and an absolute fabrication. We have no desire to ride the Baden Powell trail when there are much better trails for our needs close by. How can you be surprised by our reaction when you make statements such as these? It seems it is you who owes mountain bikers an apology.

I cannot take responsibility for the statements made about you on our bulletin board, just as someone who builds a wall cannot be responsible for what is written on it, but I would question what brings you there. Are you a secret rider after all or are you searching for information to further your slanderous campaign against us? That said I have never advocated unpleasantness and I regret if you have been subjected to this via email. Considering the emails I have been cc'ed on that have been sent to Councillor Crist I would suggest he's becoming more sensitive - they were at worst rather innocuous and often very polite.

You also claim to be environmentally active but your family owns two SUVs while your husband speaks out at council meetings against public transit. You also live in a low-density neighbourhood on the edge of the rainforest. This sort of hypocrisy leads us to believe that you care little for the environment and that your actions are motivated by a personal dislike for people having fun in your area.

Concerning your fear of the weather, a little research would show you that the trail construction techniques we employ (supervised by Graham Knell most recently) allow trails to be ridden in all types of weather with very little adverse impact. These techniques were employed on the Baden Powell section so dig out your boots - thanks to us you are free to hike in any kind of weather. Isn't that nice?

You may be interested to know that West Van Council recently approved the construction of a mountain bike riding area near the top of Cypress Mountain. It seems the new council has finally seen the positive effect mountain biking can have on the community and are guiding their actions accordingly. On top of this the resort at Cypress will be offering lift-accessed riding for the summer of 2005 - another vote of confidence for those of us who ride non polluting off road bicycles. I would suggest that riding in neither of these areas will be deemed illegal but I'm not certain how they will respond to hiking in the same areas.

I hope that in future you will start to speak the truth and avoid the slanderous campaign of disinformation you have employed thus far.

Please feel free to forward any insulting emails you receive from mountain bikers and I would be happy to respond to the sender and let them know that I abhor this sort of behaviour. There are bad seeds in every community and I would personally like to help educate mountain bikers who are impolite or worse so we can have more harmonious relationships with the community.

Sincerely,
Cam McRae





On 3-Mar-05, at 10:14 AM, M E Craver wrote:

Dear Mr. McRae:_ Where do you get off with lying?_ If I had wanted to do something like that I would have physically removed those NSMBA plates attached to the Lower Griffin Trail structures, and torn down the "plans"(attached to trees) for the modifying of the Lower Griffen, long ago._ The temptation has been there._ But that is not how I work. Be aware, Mr. McRae, I am not the only resident in this neighbourhood that is pretty upset about the "takeover" of our natural forests by your kind -- but I happen to be the most vocal -- hence, an "easy target" for you and your www. nsmb.com board. Fair?_ I do not think so. As far as I know, the neighbourhood got Trail Days "invites" in their mailboxes._ I received three, myself._ Of course, I declined -- for reasons you are aware of.

____ It is clear mountain bikers propose to ride on this trail, as I noticed a typical newly built mountain bike ladder bridge leading to a bike trail about half way up that section of the Baden Powell Trail. Frankly, I had not really noticed that trail before, but now that it has been "defined" for mountain bikes, we are sure to see more biking traffic coming through._ That is the point I am trying to make to Council._ I have encountered numerous mountain bikers on that portion of the trail over the years.

____ Also, I do not hike that trail during or shortly after rains. But I continue to see many mountain bikers coming out to ride in the park and trails -- rain, shine, snow, and at night (wearing halogen headlamps)._ It is not I who is being unreasonable, but you, the nsmb.com and the NSMBA, and other assorted mountain bikers. You do not want to leave Fromme, or any of the other eight areas of the North Shore you now illegally ride on._ Perhaps LSCR and portions of Mount Seymour are "legal" now? -- I do not know that for sure.

_ __ You and I do know, however, that it is true mountain bike trails have been cut illegally all over Fromme without approval from the DNV, in prior years._ So why should we be commending your efforts, now, because you "maintain" these trails with "approval" from DNV?_ The truth is the bike trails you ride on are still concidered "unauthorized" (DNV's terminology. Sounds nicer than "illegal", I guess).__ Frankly, some of the derogatory things said on your www.nsmba.com website about those who do not approve mountain biking in forest habitats_ -- approved by the moderator -- tells the whole story._ So please get off your high horse of arrogance, Mr. McRae._ From the things I have read on your website bulletin board about myself and Councillor Crist, along the nasty private e-mails that have come our way,_ it is you who should apologize to DNV and_ myself._ Thank you.

Monica Craver


Cam McRae wrote:



Dear Mayor and Council,

I see recently that you were sent a letter by Ms M. E. Craver, a local resident who opposes mountain biking. In her letter she complains about the work many mountain bikers completed on the Baden Powell Trail between Mountain Highway and Mountain View Park. One would think, seeing as this is her neighbourhood, she would be pleased with this project. Instead, in an effort to further poison council against us, she attacked the work done by 130 volunteers. On top of that she was seen removing notices posted in the neighbourhood informing area residents of the opportunity to come out and help preserve the trail and the environment surrounding it. These are not in my opinion the actions of a reasonable person.

This section of trail was by all accounts a mess. It had essentially become a creek bed because of poor drainage and virtually no maintenance. It's interesting to note that mountain bikers very rarely use this trail because there are other more suitable routes down the mountain for us. Our desire to maintain and repair this trail was motivated by a desire to be responsible trail users and as a means of showing the Council, residents and other trail users how we care for the forest.

Ms Craver states; " The mountain bikers’ political agenda is to ride this because they had a “Trail Days” on it. If the Baden Powell remained a hiker trail, I am sure I would have come out to help keep the natural beauty and definition of the trail." This is untrue. We have no desire to use this section of trail and this was not why the trail day was scheduled. It may be useful for Ms Craver to know that Graham Knell, the Trails and Habitat Coordinator for the District, was on hand during the trail day supervising the construction of the trail. It was not as Ms Craver claims maintained to be " a typical “rock armoured” bike trail. Good trail construction for hikers is very similar to good trail construction for cyclists. If Ms Craver was informed about trail construction she would have known this. While the work was done with hikers in mind it will certainly be more than durable enough to withstand the infrequent bicycle traffic the trail sees.

I continue to be encouraged by Councils efforts to consider these issues carefully and to listen to those who present reasonable arguments on both sides of this debate. The efforts of a few, using fabrication, slander and half truths do nothing to help this process and only encourage division among the residents of North Vancouver. I have quoted Ms Craver's e-mail in entirety below to illustrate this point.

Sincerely,
Cam McRae
Editor
nsmb.com e.magazine


Dear Mayor and Council: This is the mountain biker agenda I was talking to you about. This stretch of Baden Powell trail from the east side of the gravel service road to Mountain View Park was supposed to be a hikers’ only trail. The mountain bikers’ political agenda is to ride this because they had a “Trail Days” on it. The new trail looks a bit like a typical “rock armoured” bike trail, if you ask me. Remember, these mountain bike trail and structure builders had no problem building and cutting new trails the past several years all over Fromme – without any DNV approval. This is part of the mountain bike sub-culture. They are only wishing to benefit themselves, and not others. If the Baden Powell remained a hiker trail, I am sure I would have come out to help keep the natural beauty and definition of the trail. I, however, refuse to help any mountain bikers pursue their open agenda. Please do not fall for their ruse, either. Thank you. --Monica Craver-

[brentomatic]

Brilliant! Well done, Sir-Cameron. Very effective, very to the point. I loved it.

B

[dirty deeds]

The amount of time and energy wasted by the whole community because of 2 cracked pots is staggering.

How can she pretend to be so vehemently outraged because we restored what had turned into a rocky creek bed back into a solid trail. It's such bs. By her own words she shall be exposed.

Oh yeah, Monica. That 50 feet of the BP is going to be the new mtb mecca. People are going to come from all over to ride the gravel stairs into Mountain View Park. Extreme stuff.

[Troup]

From the 3 paragraphs I read out of 16 I liked it, very professional

[michelin man]

~~good on cam~~

:D

[skifreak]

she nicely leaves out any response to your comment about her suv's the location of her house, and admits she has no knowledge of legal access to LSCR or mount seymour...

:rolleyes:

[Keefer]

Wow. Personally, I am amazed at how anyone could have construed getting 130 volunteers out to work on a trail we hardly (if ever) ride as a bad thing. When it all boils down to it, regardless of whether it is rock-armoured and looks like a bike trail; that's what is sustainable and limits damage to the environment.

[Smoke]

Hey we really pulled the wool over their eyes, eh?

Didn't we?

Ha ha. Jokes on them. All that sweat and toil, to put in all those stairs and fix drainage and fill holes. 150+ person days of hard manual labour, combining to do something positive for the community.

Those suckers never saw it coming.....

[Wayne P]

Whenever someone, anyone, describes a group of people in terms of "your kind", it opens a door to prejudice and discimination, as she described us. That's a slippery slope Ms. Craver.


So Monika, do you wish to close down the mountain to all? Or will you have a place fit for only you, your dogs, and children to use?

Sign up and let's hear it. I want some unbiased scientific facts from you, to which we have yet to hear. I for one will not bash you.

[Jerry-Rig]

Hi Monica,

I would suggest if you do not like what is going on in the forests of Fromme Mountain, you should really move. Your attempts to ban mountain biking is futile..... plain and simple. Common sense will prevail in this matter. We are here to stay.
If one person can make a difference, just see how much hundreds if not thousands can make.
I wouldn't hedge your bets with Mr. Crist either.... his days are numbered in council. The hypocrisies that spew from both of your mouths is staggering.
I would suggest its better to work with us than against us. I'm sorry but you just can't win in this matter.

Cheers,

JR

[Spaz]

Well done Cam, way to keep a level head.

I can't beleive the amount of BS that comes out of some people's mouths. Monica how can you sleep at night.

[the flying moose]

im glad its people like her and Crist that are trying to shut us down. attend meetings and show our support and let them dig their own graves with their continued ramblings. spewing unfactual information and trying to use that against us only helps our cause by discrediting themselves and their counterparts.

[Wayne P]

Don't bash her. I want to hear facts. Bashing will not get answers nor solve anything. We are a pretty positive and friendly bunch, let's stay that way.

Monika, why do you truely feel that we shouldn't be allowed to use the trails? Its got to be more than erosion. Everything causes erosion: people, people on bikes, dogs, horses, and nature itself. We are the user group who are maintaining ALL trails for everyone to use. You can not deny that, or you won't have any credibility. Do you want all trails to be closed off to all traffic? Period?

Your actions and words are falling on deaf ears, for the most part. Why don't you just try and work with us? We'd love the opportunity to work with you and Mr. Crist in a positive and progressive manner. With an open mind of course.

From our conversation last year on the exit of MVP and most of it I posted here, your arguement is littered with inacuracies and is quite flawed, to be honest. We have not heard anything you've said to be based on UNBIASED FACT or EVIDENCE. That means you don't quote or regurgitate biased knowledge from sources that agree with you. But in your defense, only about 5% of the population can grasp this theory, so nevermind!

Sign up, we would like to hear what you have to say. Please don't take on an offensive role because that solves nothing.

[Wayne P]

Originally posted by the flying moose
im glad its people like her and Crist that are trying to shut us down. attend meetings and show our support and let them dig their own graves with their continued ramblings. spewing unfactual information and trying to use that against us only helps our cause by discrediting themselves and their counterparts.

I agree. We as a group have become far more influential because of what they say. We value their contribution to our cause. They just don't know it!

[Lady Gravity]

nice job cam :clap:

[*Pepe*]

Bravissimo Cam!

[stillgoing]

Monica:

BP Trail: At one point, there was NO BP trail. Then, a large group of volunteers got together and cut a long swath through the forest where there was none before. Why was this done? So people could go out into the woods to enjoy a recreational activity.

MTB Trails: At one point, there were no MTB trails. Then, several small groups of volunteers cut narrow swaths through the forest where there was none before. Why was this done? So people could go out in the woods to enjoy a recreational activity.

BP trail: Unfortunately, large parts of this trail have been damaged by the weather with no-one performing any maintenance, and so parts of the trail have become very rugged, to the point where one risks breaking their ankle just walking along. Up steps NSMBA and 130 volunteers to correct this problem.

MTB trails: Fortunately, the groups that use these trails take pride in their work and have continued to maintain these trails to allow continued enjoyment for all that care to partake. Individual volunteers and the NSMBA have been and continue to maintain these trails.

Interesting parallel?

On a side note, I am sure that initially, the MTB trail maintenance was done to keep the trails usable without any real regard for environmental issues. However, maintenance that is designed to keep the trail in good shape for riding is the same maintenance that keeps the trail from further damaging the environment and eroding. And now the MTB group has matured, and thinks of the environment when constructing and maintaining trails.

MTB riding and trail construction has made us all more environmentally conscious, socially aware and politically aware. Tell me what’s wrong with that?

Just image all the MTB hooligans hanging around 7-11 smoking crack, or doing B&Es instead of enjoying fresh air with their friends, getting exercise and becoming involved in a community group. You choose.

[ShoreIH]

Dear Ms Craver, If you read this, which I sincerely hope you do, I would like to say a few words. Mountain biking is changing my life, I am very overweight, but you know what? Trees dont poke fun of you, the dirts and rocks dont tell me to hit the bench and stay there the whole game. I am losing weight and damn proud of it, I owe alot to mountain biking. I go out to trail days when I can, and even a hike every once in a while. Please try to open your mind up to our sport, why is it so hard for you to do so? Just a little thing I believe in..........Close minded people will be the downfall of our society. Look at how close minded our world leaders can be, you dont support the war in Iraq do you? I didn't think so.

[Buck]

Hey Cam,
Rock on man!!! That was a great response!

I don't know if you guys do this up there, but it has been done with some success in my neck of the woods.

Log all the hours people volunteer, then make a big meeting and present them one of those BIG checks with all the hours as the money...130 people X 8hrs = 1040 hrs, think of all the money and time you have saved the local government! or do it at the end of the year so it is a HUGE number!!!

Keep fighting the good fight!
L8R
Buck

[Taylor_P]

another good correspondence on your part cam. i think that you make a very good representative for the mtb community. i have read all your letters to day thus far and all of them are, in my opinion, concise and factual. while the defending parties concerned babble and make repeated personal attacks against us (mtb'ers) keep up the good work.

[TheGiggler]

Originally posted by Buck

Log all the hours people volunteer, then make a big meeting and present them one of those BIG checks with all the hours as the money...130 people X 8hrs = 1040 hrs, think of all the money and time you have saved the local government! or do it at the end of the year so it is a HUGE number!!!


check this out Buck...

http://www.nsmba.bc.ca/cms/index.php?option=displaypage&Itemid=80&op=page&SubMenu=



and Cam... smooth and to the point as always... nice work!

[Incorrigible]

There are always those who hate watching people having more fun than them. It is quite sad. Good work, Cam! We are all grateful.

[Late Bloomer]

Cam is king!!!
http://www.cripplefight.com/smileys/respect.gif

All I know is my mtn. bike is one of the few things I own that help restore my sanity and keep me from being a raging alcoholic, etc. Sure, I have a road bike as well. It's fun, but it also involves riding in some gnarly traffic with some very unforgiving/uncompromising people. I need my mtn. bike to get a break from "the grind".
More often than not, I ride MY local trails but I still afford myself enough time to ride the fine trails that N Van and BC in general have to offer. I bring money that gets spent within the communities I visit. Before I even touch a trail, I put money into your economy. This money will never see the hands of www.nsmb.com, www.nsmba.com or www.hellonwheels.com - not directly at least. It DOES go to law enforcement, road maintenance, education, healthcare, etc., etc., etc.
I am one of many from outside of your borders that would have no reason to visit the Fromme area should it be banned to ride. The local establishments that rely on our business would feel the crunch likely more than "our kind".

Why can't we all just get along?:(

[Straw]

You write very well Cam. Thank you for taking the time to stick up for all of us who cannot think and articulate so clearly.

[Shocker]

Originally posted by StrawDog
You write very well Cam. Thank you for taking the time to stick up for all of us who cannot think and articulate so clearly.

werddd... good stuff cam ur a great representative for the mtb community, we owe it to ya.

[Duncan]

Thanks for taking the time to do the letter thing. We mountian bikers also need to do more than just bickering with those few on the other side who hold entrenched positions. I think the last trail day was a good example. We need to show up in numbers and show the DNV and general public we (taxpayers, residents, voters, consumers and visitors) CARE about this issue. No disrespect to those who do take the time to email people and make suggestions on NSMB.com, but just sitting on your ass, typing emails on a keyboard will probably not make that much of a difference in the long run. Just my 2 cents. D.

[piledriver]

Excellent work Cam.Thanks.PD


Oh Yea...Just heard on the radio CKNW that they will be having a program about MTB and issues (not defined when I heard the add) sometime tomorrow..Sat 5 March.
Anyboby know when.....stay tuned.
Ciao

[dirty deeds]

Maybe the one Dan and Ken are doing

http://bb.nsmb.com/newforum/showthread.php?s=&postid=995534#post995534

[stRYder]

WOW CAM, I dont know how you have the patience to deal with crap like this!

Fight The Power

[Purecanadianhoney]

Thank you Cam, excellent correspondence.

I'm actually glad that people like Monica and Ernie exist. I think dissent and different opinions (substantiated or not) are integral. Their concerns raise issues that we need to address as individuals and as a community in general. They make us each a little more aware of our impact and that can only be a good thing.

[patrolskid]

i've had a sense that mr. crist and ms. craver have been following our side of things via this BB for some time , and now that it has been confirmed i'd like to direct a few comments their way .

ernie / monica ( if i may be so informal ) , please take a good long look at this issue , both sides , and then take a good long look at the world away from here .

the wars , diseases , starvation , natural disasters , humans having a really hard time .

examine the MTB issue : persons , not unlike yourself , who happen to also live ( or would like to ) in one of the most beautiful places on earth , have found an outdoor activity that enriches their lives on so many levels . they are doing their best to sustain their own activity , and co-exist with other like minded persons regardless of their pursuits . is your energy truly best spent battling with these people ?

i'm trying to help you see this in it's proper perspective . at the risk of antagonizing you , i'm telling you that mountain biking will not go away , here or anywhere else , for that matter . it is what humans are doing ( in large numbers ) in this time and place .

i do not expect you to read this , change your mind , and go away . in fact , i welcome the opposite . remain on the scene , but come to the table with informed , factual opinions that will result in positive , constructive discussions that lead to consensual decisions that benefit all stakeholders .

please accept the offers made to you to tour the trails and get to know the persons and issues on a personal level . i'm sure you'll find receptive people willing to work together to preserve this activity that benefits so many .

in closing , i'd like to say how great it would be if you did register to this BB , and become a regular poster , presenting your side of things , which could contribute to furthering the sport , rather than damaging it .

thanks for taking the time to read , and you can PM me if you'd like to continue this discussion off-line .

and cam , thanks for representing us in such a mature , professional and patient manner .

[DaveM]

They won't register and post on this board, nor should they. If they did, they would be treated like anyone else that posts misinformation pulled directly out of their a.... posteriors. Every thread would turn into a bashing, and if they posted here the same crap that they push on the council it would be well deserved.

[IP FreeLee]

Bravo Cam and hats off to everyone who has taken the time to write.
I have touched base on this before loosly and will try to touch on it again as it seems most of you think that Craver will get it.
Monica does not and will not get our message. Every time she goes into a meeting or has conversation with DNV/media she spouts off about how bad everything is and EVERY time she is left to discuss it, it ALWAYS comes down to people on bikes in her park... EVERY time.
It is true that she has inspired council to jump at her beckon call, there is NO mandated policy that can back any conversation up regarding parks. Meaning, no one can quantifiably argue about trails when they don't have a actual plan or current data, hence the Alpine Study and how important it is to take part.
It is evident that she will never do anything but try and serve her best interest and use environment as a platform. She does it every time (I have still yet to find ANYONE who has actually seen a red legged frog (probably removed as tadpoles by children with jars)), it is also evident that she uses half truths, miss quotes and partial studies to fuel media, this is a fact.
Monica Craver will not go away until we stop talking to her, she is burning all her bridges with a lot of people who really count, and so long as she gets a ear she will go to all lengths to state her cause and fuel her fire with more misquotes.
Let me put it this way, Monica Craver does not listen! period. She does not get any of what we are trying to convey about environment and social responsibility, healthy lifestyle, things for youth do...None of it! she doesn't get it, most importantly nor does she care. The best thing that we could do for our overall sanity is to continue being responsible and activists and let her burn her final bridges so we can all move on and get some good stuff done.
For 8 years I have used the lower Baden Powel as a route home from the trails on bike and a great access point to take my dog for walks and I would like to thank each and every one who came out and got dirty for Steed/NSMBA trail day, the amount of work and the quality of work is nothing short of fantastic! Be proud! A community this bonded should fear nothing from self interested sqweeky wheels.

Ride On

[Wayne P]

quantifiably?

- that's a big word from a hippie.:P How was that "burger" I made for you?


I'm not worried about her at all. Its actually sad to listen to her. She won't be around long, she will get tired of spouting off inaccuracies. Eventually, people will stop listening. Oh wait, that's already happening!

Its too bad that there exists people like this who are just angry at the World around them. Keep living in that bubble.

[dirty deeds]

Right on IP. You nailed the whole thing right there. She's nuts, and you can't reason with a nut.

[Sharon]

There's one in every bunch, whether it be Council, residents or :eek: even us mountain bikers...

We have to take the good with the bad, work positively towards our goals and it will all come out in the wash.

I for one, am going skiing.
See you in a couple of weeks!

[TheGiggler]

we rode about half of the BP section from the trail day tonight. it's in perfect shape, the gravel is super hard.... and it's really fun on a bike, compared to before! :)

before that last section into mountain view park was brutal!

[tazzmenn]

Originally posted by statix
we rode about half of the BP section from the trail day tonight. it's in perfect shape, the gravel is super hard.... and it's really fun on a bike, compared to before! :)

I bet it is great for hiking and running too.

[switch]

Originally posted by IP FreeLee
It is evident that she will never do anything but try and serve her best interest
Of course she will. Example (from Monica Craver's correspondence):
I am not the only resident in this neighbourhood that is pretty upset about the "takeover" of our natural forests by your kind...

Note the use of the term "our" pond as well as the use of "your" kind. A distinction is clearly being made.


Monica Craver, Fromme Mountain IS NOT your personal property. It is not a playground for the sole use of you and perhaps some local residents you believe are deserving. It is public land, administered by various public agencies, and available to the public. Do you understand what public means? If not, here's the definition:
public (adj)
maintained for or used by the people or community: a public park.

The NIMBY attitude that you represent is contrary to the concept of our society. You are presenting an elitist and arogant attitute, and if you were to be successful at achieving your goals, it would set a dangerous and horrible precedent for our society. What do you think it would be like if every resident near a public facility had your attitude, and had the same demands? I will tell you what would happen. There would be residents only parking around every public facility, and access to the public facility would be restricted to only those residents living within a few blocks radius of the facility. Is this what you would like to see - a community torn apart?

Monica Craver, you harp on about the sensivity of the frog pond close to your home (in Mountain View Park). The frog pond is the remnants of a log dump, and is not a naturally occurring pond. You also claim it is the habitat for an endangered species of frog, yet not only is that frog not on the endangered species list, it has not been proven to inhabit the pond. Furthermore, if you knew anything about frogs, you would know that the noxious fumes emitted by your vehicle(s) is more hazardous to frogs, beause of their cutaneous respiration, than someone walking/riding/biking on a trail near the pond. You harp on about bikers who go nowhere near the pond being hazardous to the pond, yet you do not say anything about children in your neighbourhood who play in the pond (you know what that means).

Mount Fromme does not contain a forest that was pristine until 20 years ago when someone decided to ride a bike on it. The forest was extensively logged so that structures such as the one you call home could be built. Many of the hiking/biking trails exist because they are on what were skidder and access roads. Hikers, bikers, runners, and the like first used these trails because they were the least harmful way to excercise and enjoy the area. These trails take up a fraction of a percent of a the area, and most of the trails are maintained voluntarily.

I have more to say, but not now, except that I would like to read these rude and threatening messages that Monica Craver and Councillor Crist have received. I'm sure many others here would too. I wonder if they would share them with us.

[Wayne P]

That was really well written. Good job. Too bad they wouldn't understand a thing in it.

[HIBuLlitT]

I also want to say thank you to Crist and Ms Craver for forcing a dialogue amongst MTBer's from around the world about trail maintanence and responsibility to our environment and our community.

Thanks to them they have brought our global MTBing community together. Because of them I feel a part of a bigger whole.

So thank to them, and yes I am being at least 75% sincere.

Aloha from Kauai...I'm BC bound this summer, so save a few trails for me to ride on :cool:

And Cam, if you're coming to Kauai just let me know and I'll hook you up (shuttle or a boat ride).

Chris

[LeeLau]

bump - because cam likes her too

[switch]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kBvwGPRNgr8

[HIBuLlitT]

^ Gold, I should get rep for watching the whole thing...I think the "hand frog"
was the best...I need a drink now. For some reason I feel dirty after watching
that.

[cyclist.ca]

^ Gold, I should get rep for watching the whole thing...I think the "hand frog"
was the best...I need a drink now. For some reason I feel dirty after watching
that.

there goes a few minutes of my life I'll never have back...

Why bring up such an old thread LeeLau?

[Six]

Why bring up such an old thread LeeLau?


Maybe he's dispersing information so that all may know what is going on?

[switch]

there goes a few minutes of my life I'll never have back...

Why bring up such an old thread LeeLau? Because he's plugged in?

http://www.fonvca.org/letters/2008/18feb-to/

[skimtb1]

Because he's plugged in?

http://www.fonvca.org/letters/2008/18feb-to/

what the hell is that stuff?? its really kind of creepy.

[blunt boy]

Notice how MC is using ignorant posts as justification for her cause.

[switch]

She is not a rational person.

What's scary is that she's plugged into some guy in the US, Vernderbilt or something like that, that is even more delusional, and they feed off each other like a cheap harlequin romance.

[FlipFantasia]

She is not a rational person.

What's scary is that she's plugged into some guy in the US, Vernderbilt or something like that, that is even more delusional, and they feed off each other like a cheap harlequin romance.

she ain't got nothin' on vandeman's rants! that guy's been a class A loser as long as their have been mountain bikes and the internet to post on....that being said, for the newbs, don't bother feeding that loser troll, he's the most irrational of all mountain bike haters, and really not worth your time or effort, many have gone there before and threw their hands up and shook their heads....

[TheGiggler]

Hi Monica!

[Mic]

Because he's plugged in?

http://www.fonvca.org/letters/2008/18feb-to/

I find this mildly disturbing...:(

[TheGiggler]

I find this mildly disturbing...:(


pretty standard shit. not the first time, anyways.

it makes me laugh, that Monica bothered to write up an letter based on a throw-away comment by some 12 year old newb. yeah Monica, that was a totally serious post and it really represents NSMB. :rolleyes:

[FlipFantasia]

pretty standard shit. not the first time, anyways.

it makes me laugh, that Monica bothered to write up an letter based on a throw-away comment by some 12 year old newb. yeah Monica, that was a totally serious post and it really represents NSMB. :rolleyes:

goes to show everyone though that dumbass comments can and will come back to haunt you, cause she sure won't quote those of us who call people out for those comments....

[switch]

There were a couple hundred people at the DNV Council meeting where Mrs. Craver spoke. Suffice it to say that when she was done, every one of those people, including Council, had a good understanding of the whack-job she is.

[KenN]

There were a couple hundred people at the DNV Council meeting where Mrs. Craver spoke. Suffice it to say that when she was done, every one of those people, including Council, had a good understanding of the whack-job she is.

You mean the "mountain bikers are sending viruses to me in emails" meeting?

Kn.

[lambert]

are DNV council meetings filmed, sounds like prime entertainment. I'd pay good money to see that kind of hilarity.

[Geologyboy]

As I said in the other thread, when dealing with irrational people you can expect them to recognize humour and/or sarcasm like normal humans do. Insulting this woman will only make her a martyr in her mind.

Dealing with crazy is like dealing with a bear. Make no noise and slowly back away.


I am pretty sure Karma will look like this someday.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6sWJuQD0cL8

[switch]

You mean the "mountain bikers are sending viruses to me in emails" meeting?

Kn."My son is being called a frog killer" :cry:

[Knnn]

As I said in the other thread, when dealing with irrational people you can expect them to recognize humour and/or sarcasm like normal humans do. Insulting this woman will only make her a martyr in her mind.

Dealing with crazy is like dealing with a bear. Make no noise and slowly back away.


I am pretty sure Karma will look like this someday.

Movie snip

What on earth was that from and I hope that no frogs were harmed during the making of that movie, or Arnie might be getting a call from North Vancouver.

OK a Google search results in a 1999 movie called Magnolia, never seen it but looks interesting

[skimtb1]

we need some monica craver lolfrogs if you ask me

[enduramil]

You mean the "mountain bikers are sending viruses to me in emails" meeting?

Kn.

You cannot be serious.

[the flying moose]

http://images.icanhascheezburger.com/completestore/2008/4/15/whowillsaveal128527965909062500.jpg

[HIBuLlitT]

^ that cat looks so pissed off in that pic...

[Fingerbike]

Ms Craver, have you nothing better to do than trying to stop people from having fun, or is Bah humbug your favorite phrase at Christmas? theres a pretty big issue with homelessness here for example, maybe your energy would be very well suited at helping abate this issue?

[KenN]

You mean the "mountain bikers are sending viruses to me in emails" meeting?

Kn.

"My son is being called a frog killer" :cry:

You cannot be serious.

Hey, I was there, and I think that's the meeting where Crist was a councillor and he wanted the ARSS report tabled immediately. You know, so the obvious conclusions (get rid of mtn bikers) could be formalized.

I'm sure if you hunt through the DNV's video archives it's there somewhere!

Kn.