2005 Spec - Saint dropped

[TylerDurden]

Anyone else notice that Norco and Kona dropped Saint from their 2005 Spec's? Norco's gone back to Sram and Kona's back on XT/LX stuff for their freeride bikes.Seems to me that everyone raving about Saint got their parts for free (ie the guys in the banner ad)......

Personally, I'm finding the SRAM triggers and deraileurs to be awesome for muddy shore rides. Better cable route and more tolerant to mud than the old twisters......

[Team2K]

Banshee's speccing all sram too

i'm looking forward to switching soon :)

[sanrensho]

Originally posted by TylerDurden
Seems to me that everyone raving about Saint got their parts for free (ie the guys in the banner ad)......

That's not the feeling I get from visiting this board on a regular basis. So far, I've read positive comments about the Saint brakes (good stopping power/modulation), cranks (stiff), and derailleur (durable).

If the board members are getting all their Saint stuff for free, could someone tell me how I can sign up for the same program.;)

[Straw]

I would think it's an availability issue rather than a performance issue.

The 04 season was packed with supply problems from Shimano, and they just couldn't keep up with the demand. This was a problem for companies like Norco, who couldn't ship their bikes because some Shimano parts weren't in yet.

I'd say that the companies dropping Shimano are doing it so they won't run into supply problems in 2005.

I have found the Sram system to be sub-par. The x-9 shift levers bend and break more than they should. Then when you try to fix it, you realize that there's no way you can put the shifter back together after you've taken it apart...it's maintenence free, meaning that it's impossible to perform.

Anyway.

[sAFETY]

I can think of another local company that is running SRAM instead of Saint on their high end stuff unlike 'b'fore.

[Nelson]

Part of the reason is that materials cost has gone up on a golbal scale. Aluminum is more expensive overseas, not only for frames, but for shocks, shifters, deraileurs, rings etc...

Part of it will be the fact that shimano might have upped their OEM pricing for saint since its been so succesful. Part of it might be the companies trying to keep the price of their bikes low.

Devinci is sticking with saint. As am I.

[XXX_er]

I seem to remember a post where pip was not too impressed with shimano cuz they wouldnt give him spec's so he could design his frames to work with it

I heard the same thing from another local bike company

And the availability probs of Shimano parts last season,Sram has stepped up to the palte so they can compete with shimano .Its good for a parts user to diversify so they don't depend on 1 supplier that way they can keep them off balance and playing against each other.

I seen ALOT of sram on next years bikes,I rode it and it worked good for me and the rest of the crew ,I liked the thumb shifters and they were not hard to get used to .Think about a shop trying to sell a bike to a guy with rapid rise when he already has another bike with non rapidrise,is he gona try and ride an entirely backass wards systems?If he demo's a bike with x-9 and all things being equal I bet he buys the bike with sram

sram is working hard to be your parts supplier,in their seminar they outlined all the good shit they are doing.Something I didnt realize is they got a FREE tech school called STU .You go there for a week long course in the winter when bike shops are slow and its free ,free lunch,and I think they even put you up for free.







ever think about how much its gona cost if you kack one of those dual control shimano shifter brake lever assemblies?

[spookymilk]

I think it also may have to do with the compatibility issue with running Saint since you gotta run the hubs, brakes, derailleurs (there are a few ways around it now) but the out of the box upgradeability was pretty lacking if you ran Saint.

[Trini-dad72]

I love my sram shifters. I hated the RapidRise and I have a regular XT on the bike. Everything works well.

[Nelson]

I love rapid rise.....:)

ITs nice cause it results in reduced effort and more accurate shifting. Instead of pushing the chain up against a wall of steel for a bigger cog, you let the spring do it. You're now pushing the chain down against air to a smaller cog for harder gears: it's easier. Also, by letting the indexed spring movement put you in lower gears, you'll never blow a shift on the climb and can shift under the heaviest pedaling load.

[Nelson]

P.s. Lets see your sram's and XT's take a beating like this.....

http://atn.pfak.org/albums/album54/PICT0037.sized.jpg

[ridefruita]

Originally posted by Nelson
P.s. Lets see your sram's and XT's take a beating like this.....



My X-9 is just as beat if not more and it is running great. If I owned a Digi Cam I get ya a pic but I am to bussy spending my money on bikes and skis.

Also ya'll saying that production problems are the cause of the switch are right on. I am in Colorado and the word on Kona availability was at the earliest Jan of 05, but you can get frames soon if not allready.

[XXX_er]

Originally posted by Nelson
I love rapid rise.....:)

ITs nice cause it results in reduced effort and more accurate shifting. Instead of pushing the chain up against a wall of steel for a bigger cog, you let the spring do it. You're now pushing the chain down against air to a smaller cog for harder gears: it's easier. Also, by letting the indexed spring movement put you in lower gears, you'll never blow a shift on the climb and can shift under the heaviest pedaling load.

maybe its good , maybe its real good with dual control

maybe you could list reasons why driving on the wrong side of the road would be good but it would still fuck everybody up who is used to driving on the right side .

[Nelson]

Originally posted by XXX_er
maybe its good , maybe its real good with dual control

maybe you could list reasons why driving on the wrong side of the road would be good but it would still fuck everybody up who is used to driving on the right side .

People share the road, you dont share your bike....I actually own both and can go between no problem in any situation wether its whistler or an XC race...

[hampstead bandit]

i like the SRAM stuff, it seems tough enough and i like the more heavy shift clunk you get compared to shimano

i've been using SRAM chains for years, and also SRAM cassettes, they are cheaper than Shimano and seem to outlast them too

used the SRAM thumb shifter at Whistler on hire bikes, and really liked the new style compared to shimano's rapidfire.

when the shimano rear derailleur and shifter dies, its gonna be swapped out for SRAM..

[XXX_er]

Originally posted by Nelson
People share the road, you dont share your bike....I actually own both and can go between no problem in any situation wether its whistler or an XC race...

Not me ,I was always in the wrong gear at demo days and so was everyone else in the crew ,all 4 of us had problems getting used to it ,even the guys who had done alot of racing including solo 24's & hates cars ... which leads me to believe other people will have trouble .SO imagine a bikestore where joe average has trouble riding a 1000$ bike with rapid rise , then they get on a sram bike ... what are they gona buy?

Also when you are booking down a dh run at top speed if you pull the trigger for an upshift you get 1 gear for each clik,with rapid rise can you control your thumb movement to get only the shifts you want?

I once ran my top load deore light action shifters upside down under the bars ,swapped sides and that took several months to get used to and that was owning only 1 bike

[sdwkubed]

I have had an XTR der, from the first year that rapid rise ever came out... and I love it, I have loved it since the day I bought it, it just makes more sense...

Except now I built a HT, and just put on a cheapy LX der, that I had laying around.... now my shifting on both bikes sucks @ss.. I can never remember what to do... now I am considering switching both bikes to SRAM (only cuz I'm not stoked about Shimano anymore and have heard great things about SRAM) or maybe a new Saint der. for my fully and throw the XTR on the HT, but not two different systems on two bikes... I hate it now....

But as long as you run nothing but Rapid rise... I think it is the best option from Shimano... if SRAM made rapid rise, I would be on that band wagon in an instant.

Have Fun
T

[UFO]

Originally posted by Nelson
I love rapid rise.....:)

ITs nice cause it results in reduced effort and more accurate shifting. Instead of pushing the chain up against a wall of steel for a bigger cog, you let the spring do it. You're now pushing the chain down against air to a smaller cog for harder gears: it's easier. Also, by letting the indexed spring movement put you in lower gears, you'll never blow a shift on the climb and can shift under the heaviest pedaling load.

no dice for me. i love shimano, but old habits die real hard. i dont like dual control, and i despise rapid rise even though everything is so logical technically. why couldnt they have thought of this 10 years ago?? doesnt take much to turn a normal rear der into low normal

[sdwkubed]

Originally posted by UFO
no dice for me. i love shimano, but old habits die real hard. i dont like dual control, and i despise rapid rise even though everything is so logical technically. why couldnt they have thought of this 10 years ago?? doesnt take much to turn a normal rear der into low normal

The first Rapid Rise came out in the late '90's.

It just didnt catch on, unfortunately.

Have Fun
T

[Shmoe]

After trying saint, xt, and X7. The x7 has been the best. Cleanest shifts and least maintainence. Plus SRAM/Avid is a great company to deal with, much better then shimano.

My x7 rear d and pc 99 chain and cogset is the best shifting ive ever seen. I imagine the x9 and x.0 would be better, but I have a hard time spending that much on drivetrain.

[XXX_er]

Originally posted by UFO
but old habits die real hard.

exactly

dh skiing,ww paddling,mtnbiking ,to make any of it flow well its all training/developing the muscle/motor memory of yer body so you do the right thing at the right time without thinking...you are in effect developing a habit AND the better your habit the more you flow

In any of the above sports if you gotta think about WHAT you should do it is TOO LATE


hats off to anybody who can move back and forth between the 2 systems ... sure they exist but I doubt they are the the norm

so you either go sram or buy all new shimano gruppo's to train on ... till they change something else

pretty arrogant of shimano IMO

[Nelson]

Originally posted by XXX_er
Also when you are booking down a dh run at top speed if you pull the trigger for an upshift you get 1 gear for each clik,with rapid rise can you control your thumb movement to get only the shifts you want?

Uh.....Yes?

Chances are though im not changing gears really when im up at whistler, if I have to drop gears a whole handful I can drop the chain down in one stroke....

And you dont need dual control levers or saint hubs or brakes to run saint. Infact all of saints parts can be run alone without other saint stuff except the hubs. They make a 6 bolt brake, derailuers that thread onto any 10mm axle and brake levers that will work with any other shimano brake....

[Millstone]

you guys must be joking. it took me two rides to get used to rapid rise and i can still shift anything else.

[sanrensho]

Originally posted by XXX_er
so you either go sram or buy all new shimano gruppo's to train on ... till they change something else

pretty arrogant of shimano IMO

What exactly did SRAM do to your brain at Interbike?:P

In bike components as in the rest of the world, sometimes the best system does not win out. I haven't tried Rapid Rise, but if it works as well as it is said to, then Shimano should have trickled it down to their lower product lines many years ago and made it a "standard." It seems like the only knock on Rapid Rise is that it is counter-intuitive to what many people are used to.

Right now, it's something of an orphaned technology, because consumers can choose between regular low normal and Rapid Rise. How is offering a choice "arrogant"?

[XXX_er]

well you can mix and match parts and lots of peeps on this board will but if you are joe average looking at a new giant its got what ever shimano is selling to giant .I guess you do have a choice... don't buy the bike

IMO shimano IS trying to make rapidrise a standard right now

sram pickled my brain in alcohol and gave me freebies,payola is a fair marketing tool, except for those who missed out, but I think SRAM is listening to the end user which will make a better product that we want.At the seminar they used alot of sentances that started with "You told us this is a problem and this is what we did to fix it"

But still I liked x-9 way better than rapidrise,we all did and IMO the couter-intuitive thing is big ...some of you disagree fair enough

regarding arrogance ,what do you call it when a supplier (Shimano) institutes a new standard in products they supply but does not supply their customers, 3 local bike mfg's(banshee we know cuz it was posted here and 2 others we don't wana mention) with specs so they can design their products accordingly?

is that incompetence,stupidity,arrogance or some of each?I worked for a multinational that used to tell customers what they should want and we ALMOST went under so I know how big corps work


IMO its a good thing to now have 2 major players with competative products in the game and I would like to see SRAM get more successful .Because its a win-win ,for joe mtnbiker and Sram OR Shimano to compete for our $ ...whoever can deliver the best product .

[UFO]

Originally posted by sdwkubed
The first Rapid Rise came out in the late '90's.

It just didnt catch on, unfortunately.

Have Fun
T

if it did not 'catch-on' with the xtr of that era, it would seem illogical to try it again 5-6 years later. of course 'normal' xtr was also offered, so in keeping with old habits die hard, customers obviously did not want to adapt to a new system that was available only at the xtr level. i would hate to throw down 3 c-notes on a rear derailleur only to find that i completely cannot get used to the way it works. i agree with sanrensho: if rapidrise was THAT much of an improvement, shimano would have made it standard all the way down the line.

the only logic i can see behind this reintroduction is dual control. shimano figure that you have to relearn how to use their shifters anyways, so they may as well throw low-normal back into the game.

imo, no dual control=no rapidrise.

[Ashek]

Originally posted by StrawDog
I have found the Sram system to be sub-par. The x-9 shift levers bend and break more than they should. Then when you try to fix it, you realize that there's no way you can put the shifter back together after you've taken it apart...it's maintenence free, meaning that it's impossible to perform.




AIIIIIGGGGN wrong.

http://bb.nsmb.com/newforum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=47538

[Wes]

Originally posted by XXX_er
maybe its good , maybe its real good with dual control

maybe you could list reasons why driving on the wrong side of the road would be good but it would still fuck everybody up who is used to driving on the right side .

I'm sorry, but that makes absolutely no sense.

It would take all of 10 minutes (or less) to get used to shifting backwards. It might not be the greatest thing in the world for a rental bike, but besides that there is no problem.

You would have to be fairly dense to not be able to adapt to shifting the other way... :D

[XXX_er]

well actualy lots of people don't get it and the words "your milage may vary" spring to mind

so you have converted to rapidrise and it took you 10 minutes and you have no trouble going back and forth on the other bike you own with rapid fire?

[sanrensho]

Originally posted by XXX_er
so you have converted to rapidrise and it took you 10 minutes and you have no trouble going back and forth on the other bike you own with rapid fire?

This discussion about Rapid Rise has certainly piqued my interest. I need to go demo some bikes and check out both Rapid Rise and the SRAM shifting.

Although I won't be buying either soon, since my 8-speed XT pods work as flawlessly as they did when they were new.:)

[sdwkubed]

Originally posted by UFO
if it did not 'catch-on' with the xtr of that era, it would seem illogical to try it again 5-6 years later. of course 'normal' xtr was also offered, so in keeping with old habits die hard, customers obviously did not want to adapt to a new system that was available only at the xtr level. i would hate to throw down 3 c-notes on a rear derailleur only to find that i completely cannot get used to the way it works. i agree with sanrensho: if rapidrise was THAT much of an improvement, shimano would have made it standard all the way down the line.

the only logic i can see behind this reintroduction is dual control. shimano figure that you have to relearn how to use their shifters anyways, so they may as well throw low-normal back into the game.

imo, no dual control=no rapidrise.

From peeps that I talked to back when Rapidrise was first introduced, most had never tried it... yet they slammed it, and claimed that the sky would fall if you used it, among other things... I've seen some of the same stuff this time... I think that Shimano made a mistake in only offering it in their XTR, but I can understand that decision, the cost of offering rapid rise and regular der., through out their range, would have cost too much.

Peeps should actually go out and ride the bikes w/ rapid rise, and not just on the parking lot. We are creatures of habit, and in one 2 minute ride, we are not going to reprogram our brains to shift correctly, but in a couple of rides, if you are willing to have an open mind, I think that most people will start to see the benefit of the system.

But, I will agree that having multiple systems suck... I hate having a rapid rise and regular, and as I said before, I'm contemplating switching both bikes to one system or the other... I nail 90% of my shifts on both bikes, but the 10% that I screw up, really, really suck. When I only rode rapid rise, I loved it, and didnt ever see any issues with it.

I also agree with UFO, I think that Shimano is using dual control in an attempt to reintroduce the rapidrise, I also think that they are using Saint to the same purpose. Peeps will buy Saint, because it is Saint (deep, I know), but when they use Rapidrise, I think that Shimano is expecting that peeps will either a) get used to it, and want it on their next bike, b) switch their other bikes to rapid rise so that they have the same platform on all their bikes, or c) hate it and never use rapide rise again.

I think it is quite interesting how Shimano has presented rapid rise this time, they've given the xc weight weenies the dual control systems, so they'll deal with learning rapid rise, just to have that system. The Saint groupo does the same thing for the FR and DH crowd. Now instead of simply offering a rapid rise derailleur and giving peeps options, which offered little incentive to switch, Shimano has now come out and presented incentives that may convince more people to shift their opinions... uh, no pun intended.

Hm... I think I have rambled long enough... I'm done now.

Have Fun
T