Sponsor a trail builder

[CreamyCanuck]

Synchro - I walked your new "Seymour Artwork" last Saturday and was amazed at what you have created. If it weren't for the small group of local builders like you 50% of those bike shops would go out of business. Trails like the one you are building inspire bikers to ride, make us all feel like we can improve, and ultimately send us back to the bike shop for upgrades. I guarantee you that if local shops would sponsor the builder as they do riders the shops would profit and your efforts would be recognized beyond the cudos of this board. The result, sustainable trails, happy riders, happy shop owners.

The City of West Van has recognized the potential economic spin-offs from mountain biking but bike shop owners are still sitting on the side lines and afraid to go outside the box to make their businesses that much better. Its funny how bike shops make so little money yet most are afraid to step-up, make some waves in the industry and do something a bit different in order to gain new clientel. Maybe that is why they will never increase their margins beyond the sad state that it is now, poor management. Business prospers on new ideas and catering to your clientel...hey owners, are you listening? Owners - if you think a pancake breakfast for trail days several times per year and attending a few events is enough then just take a look at your total net profits last year and tell me that you can't do a better job. Afterall it is YOUR business so do something.

Syncro, you inspire me to ride dude. I owe you some serious beers for the good times I will spend on that new trail once it is open. Imagine if I (and you all) felt that way about a bike shop...imagine stopping mid-trail, looking around with a huge smile on your face and saying "Thanks Dizzy Cycles". Here is where shop owners should pay attention, no, don't starting bitching just pay attention: You need to make a stronger link to the trails of the North Shore. You are missing out on the biggest opportunity for your shops to gain a sense of loyalty back with your customers.

Sorry for the winded rant but I was just going over a marketing plan here at work, thinking about biking that new trail in my dreams, and I realized that the key to North Shore trail improvement, building and Bike shop prosperity is not offering 10% off crappy tires on Sundays. It is getting into the minds of riders and have them remember that your shop was involved in building the shore.

End of lesson. Resume regular activities.

[TheGiggler]

the bike industry is pretty cuthroat, it's not like the shops on the shore are raking in big wads of cash. not with the internet sites and Overtime around anyways.

i've given up on shops stepping up, they are far to busy just trying to stay afloat and keep their shop staffed and stoked up.

what needs to happen is that more riders donate to NSMBA so that they can eventually pay/sponsor some building/maintenance crews.

or, the municipalities need to step up. while the developments in DWV are very good, we are a long long way every having our trails maintained by the districts. maybe they could give some money to the NSMBA, but with things how they are right now, even this would be a big step?

[LeeLau]

Some shops are already coming through big time. OnTop, Dizzy, JohnHenry are unbelievable. Cove is starting to come online as is Steed. Lots of industry types are also helping out bigtime - not just big companies but small outfits like .243, darkcycles, hoots, nsmb, etc. The list goes on.

What would be nice is to see individual riders help out guys like synchro, piledriver, davewicks, putty etc more. If youre grateful buy them some nice bike bits. They wont say no I bet!

[Sharon]

Please PM me and we can talk.

BTW Dizzy brought us in mucho $$$ for the Ripper.

[CreamyCanuck]

Excellent points. No argument coming from me on those.

I am trying to look at it from a purely business point of view. I am only bringing up the point that local shops need to do more. It is a risk they may need to take or close their doors like so many others have in the past.

[Team2K]

Shop sponsored trail days are a good thing... its not necessarily just pancake breakfast.... On Top is known to have awesome BBQ's and all the shops bring lots of free shwag for the volunteers. Right now i'm just a donator, but I hope to have the chance to volunteer soon :) Probably will wait until after the Whistler season is over tho :P

[Putty]

i don't really want/expect anything for my trail work.

its nice that nsmba covers the cost of tools and nails....that is really all i want out of the community...oh and its also nice when people stop and do some carrying or rock handling for us when we are up there. that helps.

[CreamyCanuck]

Yes, sponsored trail days are great. Forsure. I am trying to get past the normal shop activities and challenge shop owners to take a new look at exactly what they sell, how the products are used, who uses them and then come up with something new that will let them stand out from the crowd. I personally have zero loyalty to a bike shop. I have HUGE loyalty to 1 bike mechanic and I will spend thousands at that shop due to that one guy...props to him as I am putting the owners kids through college no doubt. But it is really sad that a consumer like me (yes I spend serious cash on bike stuff every year...I'm not a 16 year old student struggling to buy some new pedals) doesn't have a sense of loyalty to my local shop. My fault? I don't think so? What has my shop done for the sport/trails? If they have done something why don't I know about it, I am in there every week?

This is my point, why is the consumer left in the dark on shop initiatives? Maybe the shop is doing nothing to be proud of.

[sanrensho]

Hmm, instead of sponsoring trail builders, perhaps sponsors could be convinced to adopt individual trails. (Preferably more than one, of course.) Something like an "adopt-a-Shore trail" program.

Since the bike shops already sponsor the trail days, perhaps the manufacturers could be convinced to join such a program.

[CreamyCanuck]

Exactly - Shops could sponsor a trail. We all know that would lead to a competition between the shops to have the best and most well maintained trails out there. This would give the builder some serious help as now the trail day would be organized and recruited by the shops and not just a few posts on the board. It is an idea that the city would also enjoy since local business would be getting involved with local community and ensuring that only quality stunts like the "Seymour Art Gallery" were built.

Come-on shop owners. This is a gem of an idea. Take it and roll with it. Imagine having your shop name associated with a trail. We're not talking ownership here just community involvement and helping the builders with carrying the materials they need to work their magic, and maybe a few builder perks along the way...parts at wholesale cost maybe????

[synchro]

Originally posted by putty
i don't really want/expect anything for my trail work.

its nice that nsmba covers the cost of tools and nails....that is really all i want out of the community...oh and its also nice when people stop and do some carrying or rock handling for us when we are up there. that helps.

pretty much.

[Putty]

holy crap we agree on something...you still suck tho.

[CreamyCanuck]

As builders, what do you guys want to see happen?

We all know that the number of people riding the Shore will be increasing at an exponential rate over the next 10 years. Do you guys want to see shops and others in the business take a greater role in helping you guys do your work?

If the city hired 2 builders on contract to build for money would you do it? In the coming years it may come to that.

[Putty]

i try to stay out of the business side of things...i leave that up to Sharon, who is much better at it than I.

I get enough BS at work so trial work is therapy. Not sure what the financial needs of NSMBA are, but as long as there is money for supplies, I don't personally see a need for shop involvement at a grass roots level. let them sponsor or donate to NSMBA and let them distribute the funds as they see fit.

this is only my opinion.

do we know that numbers are going to increase exponentially? or are we seeing a fad like blip right now? who knows.

if there were a possibility of building for a job, i would think about it long and hard. i make good money right now, so i am sure i would be taking a pay cut, but i don't love my job (quite the opposite), while i do love the forest and trail building.

now, if you said i would work with splinchro and all he wares is his chainsaw pants, then yes sign me up right now.

[sanrensho]

Originally posted by CreamyCanuck
Exactly - Shops could sponsor a trail.

Except the bike shops already directly sponsor trail maintenance via the trail days. There would be some overlap between an adopt-a-trail program and the current trail days, but that woud be OK if it brought more sponsors on board.

Send Sharon a PM if you are interested in pursuing such a program. Ultimately, it comes down to who will volunteer their time to go out and find sponsors.

[CreamyCanuck]

I hear ya.

I have been doing some research on the Vancouver market (work stuff) and the population of the lower mainland is expected to grow by 1 million people by 2010. Just think how many more riders that could equal. Add to that the Cypress park which initially may reduce the number of riders on the non-lift accessed trails but in the end it will grow the number of riders on the shore and eventually increase the number of rider in the region. Bahhh...too much thinking right now I have to get some work done ;) .

[Putty]

CC - i think its good that you are exploring these questions. can't hurt.

[the flying moose]

wouldnt there be an issue with the legality of the trails? how many shops would sponsor a trail that technically isnt supposed to be there? would that bring liabilty to the shop if there were someone were to get injured??

[DaveM]

Helping out with the financial burden is great, but speaking for myself, I like the least amount of outside influence possible. We know what we want, I'd be afraid that someone "sponsoring" my work would eventually lead to someone telling me what and how to do things. It would go sour really fast about that time. Most builders I have met are a solitary bunch, we have our ideas and like to work alone, unless some big project requires additional manpower. The financial help is just gravy.

That being said, Cap's Westwood Cycle approached me this year with interests in donating to the the local builders in our area. They've heard alot about what we're doing, and realize they are profitting from our efforts, and want to help out. So if you're in the tri-city area, check out Cap's, there's always good deals to be had, and they do give back to the community.

[sanrensho]

Originally posted by putty
CC - i think its good that you are exploring these questions. can't hurt.

Yeah, I don't mean to kill any discussion on this topic or dilute someone's enthusiasm for such an idea.

I think an adopt-a-trail program would be a great idea, and is just crying out for an enterprising volunteer to step up and run with the idea.;)

On a larger level, if the numbers continue to grow, I think our best chance at sustainability is a user fee (license) system and paid full-time or part-time trail workers.

[synchro]

if i could start work tomorrow as a trail builkder/co-ordiantor with the district(s) i would do it in a heartbeat - assuming the money would be pretty much the same as what i make now. i currently work for vancouver parks and rec and have a good idea of what that type of job would pay so i don't see it being a problem.

[sanrensho]

Originally posted by davet
Helping out with the financial burden is great, but speaking for myself, I like the least amount of outside influence possible. We know what we want, I'd be afraid that someone "sponsoring" my work would eventually lead to someone telling me what and how to do things.

I don't think this would be an issue. The bike shops that sponsor NSMBA trail days don't have any influence on the trail work that is done, except through the direct participation of their bike shop staff.

[synchro]

Originally posted by sanrensho
On a larger level, if the numbers continue to grow, I think our best chance at sustainability is a user fee (license) system and paid full-time or part-time trail workers.

i've been saying this from pretty much day one.

[Sharon]

Wouldn't it be great if the Cove were to adopt Neds...


:) :rolleyes:

[sanrensho]

Originally posted by synchro
i've been saying this from pretty much day one.

It's past 3:00. Aren't you supposed to be riding Fromme now?

[synchro]

Originally posted by sanrensho
It's past 3:00. Aren't you supposed to be riding Fromme now?

i just left about 20 minutes ago.

[synchro]

ok, now.

[Jerry-Rig]

Originally posted by davet
I like the least amount of outside influence possible. We know what we want, I'd be afraid that someone "sponsoring" my work would eventually lead to someone telling me what and how to do things. It would go sour really fast about that time. Most builders I have met are a solitary bunch, we have our ideas and like to work alone, unless some big project requires additional manpower. The financial help is just gravy.


you hit the nail on the head..... literally

2 thumps up for renegade trail builders.....

[Smoke]

Marshall from RaceFace said it best,

"There's literally hundreds of dollars to be made in the bike industry."

Seriously, do you want big billboards all over the trails you ride? That's how sponsorship works you know. If it were to cost a couple of grand to sponsor some trails, you'd better believe that the shops would want signs up on every trail that they support saying that they did so. Big f*ck off shiny ones, too.

Nahhh. Better to give your time, money, and soul to the nsmba than getting trails sponsored.

Besides, if the shops put $$ into the trails, where do you think they get the $$ from in the first place?

Anyone who is enterprising enough to sell this concept to the shops should take up the challenge and sell it directly to the people and fundraise for the nsmba.

[Smoke]

Originally posted by CreamyCanuck
I hear ya.

I have been doing some research on the Vancouver market (work stuff) and the population of the lower mainland is expected to grow by 1 million people by 2010.

Might want to double check those figures. Could be embarassing if you're getting paid to find that stuff out.

[Putty]

Pangor is brought to you by RealDoll.com

Enjoy the ride.

[trail worker]

the last thing i'd want is some corporate tightwad walking around telling me what to do.


i guess i could be classified as a "solitary misfit"..i like to build by myself or with 1 or 2 other guys.no more,otherwise i start to get frustrated.i'd rather spend 3 times as long doing something solo or with a small group than call in a bunch of people to help out and get the job done sooner.the more people around the trails,the crankier i become.

[CreamyCanuck]

I like you idea of keeping it the trail and the funding from the people to support NSMBA instead of sponsorship. My only worry is that as the sport becomes larger and more popular money becomes a driving factor. Once this happens the little guys that should look after the trails get left behind in a cloud of corporate smoke.

And no worries on my stats. Simple projections set out by Stats Can.. They are usually bang-on with that stuff.

[Smoke]

Somewhat off topic, but theres just NO FREAKIN WAY that Vancouver can absorb a million people. That would mean 45 000 on the Shore alone in 6 years. Do the breakdown and try to figure out where to put them. Vancouver has doubled in size in 35 years and you're saying it's going to grow by half again in under 6?

That kind of growth would lead to wide scale failure of local systems and government, and possibly bring down the federal govt as well. Our country couldn't sustain that kind of pop. increase in such a short time. We simply don't have the infrastructure to support it.

Either Stats Can has blown it, I'm losing my touch, or the figures are being misinterpreted.

Got a link to those figs? I wanna see em. If you're right, then we're all in deep poop.

**edit-- I re read it, and am amending my moderate stance.. You're so wrong. That's 200 000 people a year for the next five. Can't be done.

[DaveM]

That kind of growth would lead to wide scale failure of local systems and government, and possibly bring down the federal govt as well

It looks like it happened already;)

[ATN]

Using the rule of seventy for growth, it would take 50 years for our population to double at the Canadian Average Growth rate of 1.4... to double in 6 years thats a rate of 11.6.

Not too many people I know around here are putting a dozen buns in the oven ;)

[hampstead bandit]

this is a real interesting thread, and one close to my heart as one of only a handful of freeride trail builder here in England

i've spent a sh*t load of time working on a freeride park called "Woburn sands" just outside London

and even more time working on "Esher Shore"

With woburn, i don't get much help as there's no money available from the land owners, they are already subsidising the place with liability insurance and only charge riders GRP£10 a year which is like dirt cheap

i buy the tools and train tickets (its 1.5 hours away) and donate my time for the good of having better trails, its selfish really that i want better trails i can ride but everyone gets to enjoy them. the dirt jump guys there also work unpaid on their trail, last Summer their crew was hitting 60-70 hours a week during evenings and weekends


with Esher Shore its totally different because a bike shop in England (Freeborn Bikes - who import Ellsworth, Banshee and Devinci) had the foresight to fund the trail.

they found the site, arranged the insurance with the landowner (who has a dry ski slope so the insurance is tacked onto that), they paid for tools, materials, my time over the Winter (I worked for them trail building for 5 months) as i left my job to work on the trail, took a massive pay cut but it was worth it.

since the trails got closed, money got tight, the last 6 months we rebuild the whole site with financial support for wood and materials but i donated alot of my free time to make sure the rebuild happens. its kinda tough working a 5 day week and then spending all my free time there but its got to be done as no one else will do it, and its great having a freeride park so close to London.

without Freeborn Bikes putting in some serious money (we're talking GBP £££thousands) there wouldn't be any trails at Esher. they are not doing it to make money, as the entrance/session fee is real low so riders can afford it, they will make some money back from increased sales in their shop, which is next to the trails but the entrance fees will never cover their investment in the trails.

the brands they import, and the brands they sell, have put in by donating money or product to sell, to fund a bunch of safety padding to protect riders from colliding with trees and stunts. these guys get their name on the pads, which looks ok and doesnt ruin the look of the trails.

at the moment, esher is re-opening after 7 months of closure, we've rebuilt all the low and medium stuff, and plan to build the high (expert) stuff over the winter. we're putting forward a plan to have sponsors pay for a expert trail, and get their name on the trail.

hell if they want to call the trail "Dh 4000" or whatever their bike brand name is, that'd be all good?


we've been talking alot recently about funding trail building in the UK. i put forward the idea of a small sales tax (1%) on all freeride bikes, to be passed to a non-profit organisation which could oversee trail building regulations (as we have none which is causing major problems with Health & Safety officers), provide guidance to volunteer builders, provide site safety visits, organise jams and comps, etc.

the problem is that the margins are very tight in bike shops, most barely survive without extra money going out to the association, we don't think its gonna happen, BUT

the freeride bikes are "destination" bikes, you have to go somewhere to ride them. sure you can ride around the streets but thats not gonna grow sales or ensure long term participation by riders. For freeride to grow you need more trails, more destinations to go and ride. these destinations don't appear by themselves?

at the moment, its volunteers building on public land that are making profits for the bike companies like Specialized, Giant, Cove, Kona, yet we don't see them putting back into the sport here in England; hell Specialized don't sponsor a single rider in the UK but they've sold literally 1000s of Big Hit frames and bikes since 2002.

surely if the industry doesnt start putting back, then rising insurance costs, and the fact that most builders like me have full time jobs in addition to the trail work, means its not going to grow or have a long term future?

[synchro]

Originally posted by hampstead bandit
its kinda tough working a 5 day week and then spending all my free time there

welcome to the club my friend


Originally posted by hampstead bandit
we've been talking alot recently about funding trail building in the UK. i put forward the idea of a small sales tax (1%) on all freeride bikes, to be passed to a non-profit organisation which could oversee trail building regulations

a bunch of us here want something like that too. a small tax on the bikes (which could be waived if you had proof of NSMBA membership and a donation) or a 'shore bike liscence'


Originally posted by hampstead bandit
the problem is that the margins are very tight in bike shops, at the moment, its volunteers building on public land that are making profits for the bike companies like Specialized, Giant, Cove, Kona

add some other companies in there too - Norco and many of the US manufacturers. they are the ones making the profits

[Uncle Duke]

Originally posted by trail worker

i guess i could be classified as a "solitary misfit"..i like to build by myself or with 1 or 2 other guys.no more,otherwise i start to get frustrated.i'd rather spend 3 times as long doing something solo or with a small group than call in a bunch of people to help out and get the job done sooner.the more people around the trails,the crankier i become.

I can agree w this.

[DaveM]

Originally posted by putty
Pangor is brought to you by RealDoll.com

Enjoy the ride.

And try to stay out of the mud.

[CreamyCanuck]

re: the population growth issue.

refer to http://www.gvrd.bc.ca/growth/pdfs/BCStats-GVRD_Presentation2004.pdf . The second chart shows the GVRD to hit 3 million people by 2030, note that we are currently at 2 million people. These stats are used for city planning purposes and here sits the problem. The chart is almost 100% linear. Analysts project the GVRD region (people, economy, needs) to boom at an exponential rate in the next 6 years and project an increase of 1 million people. Yes, it sounds insane but our small city is expected to seriously expand very quickly. I am not an expert but the traditional projections need to be seriously looked at since cities go through growth spurts and do not follow conventional "growth rates".

Think about the infrastructure that will be needed to accomodate this surge of people even if it results in 1/2 a million people.

[wilkez]

I dont know ifi ever mentioned this on the board, but there is a shop in bike zone called surrey. one day i took the boys from the shop down lower crippler, the trail and i have (almost) finished. The guys from the shop were just amazed, and about a month later they gave us $200 bucks cash to cover our tools, transportation and materials costs becuase they wanted to support us. Not only that, they gave us another $100 bucks about 6 months ago.

$300 bucks may not sound like a lot, but it rented us a chainsaw twice and bought us some new tools.

I dont know how much money Bike Zone in surey is making, but they are very good guys supporting mountain biking. When nigel and i made a sign (that he screwed up so its not up at the entrance yet), we put their logo on it as well as NSMBA on the bottom corners to let everybody know who helped us out. I hope you guys go help them out too.

so that is just one more example of why surrey is better than north van...:) or at least smarter when it comes to business...

[CreamyCanuck]

That is great to hear.

[Ali]

Ref growth stats:

I think I might be movin' out there next year, but not sure about the girlfriend.

I'll let you know.......

[Putty]

Originally posted by davet
And try to stay out of the mud.

there is no mud on pangor. and there are no infidels in baghdad.

[DaveM]

Originally posted by putty
there is no mud on pangor. and there are no infidels in baghdad.

I meant on the Realdoll. Pangor's awesome.

[sanrensho]

Originally posted by wilkez
[color=blue]I dont know ifi ever mentioned this on the board, but there is a shop in bike zone called surrey. one day i took the boys from the shop down lower crippler, the trail and i have (almost) finished. The guys from the shop were just amazed, and about a month later they gave us $200 bucks cash to cover our tools, transportation and materials costs becuase they wanted to support us. Not only that, they gave us another $100 bucks about 6 months ago.

And did they "lean on you" to make sure the trail was built to their specifications? I'm guessing the answer is "no." (Wilkez, I'm not directing these comments at you, just trying to prove a point.)

I'm surprised at some of the reactionary comments here. A trail sponsorship program does not necessarily mean large billboards, neon lights, and "built to Norco/Kona/RaceFace spec" on your favorite trail. It's just an idea for gaining additional funding for trail maintenance. Some forward and creative thinking is needed here.

Remember, if we can't work toward a model of trail sustainability ourselves, then the GVRD/DNV/DWV bureacrats will be more than happy to step in and take control of the situation.

[synchro]

Originally posted by wilkez
I dont know ifi ever mentioned this on the board, but there is a shop in bike zone called surrey. one day i took the boys from the shop down lower crippler, the trail and i have (almost) finished. The guys from the shop were just amazed, and about a month later they gave us $200 bucks cash to cover our tools, transportation and materials costs becuase they wanted to support us. Not only that, they gave us another $100 bucks about 6 months ago.

$300 bucks may not sound like a lot, but it rented us a chainsaw twice and bought us some new tools.

I dont know how much money Bike Zone in surey is making, but they are very good guys supporting mountain biking. When nigel and i made a sign (that he screwed up so its not up at the entrance yet), we put their logo on it as well as NSMBA on the bottom corners to let everybody know who helped us out. I hope you guys go help them out too.

so that is just one more example of why surrey is better than north van...:) or at least smarter when it comes to business...

i can only read that and smile and laugh in a good way tyler. i may get around to finishing some stuff on your trail over teh winter too. i'll post pics if i do

[wilkez]

Originally posted by synchro
i can only read that and smile and laugh in a good way tyler. i may get around to finishing some stuff on your trail over teh winter too. i'll post pics if i do

nigel and i are going to come home for 3 or 4 weeks at xmas and finish off our massive berm operation. other than that, you can do what you want with the area below that. it doesnt really need much work, probably just drains and rocks really. its pretty fast and flowy as it is all the way to the bottom.

[synchro]

Originally posted by wilkez
nigel and i are going to come home for 3 or 4 weeks at xmas and finish off our massive berm operation. other than that, you can do what you want with the area below that. it doesnt really need much work, probably just drains and rocks really. its pretty fast and flowy as it is all the way to the bottom.

actually i was thinking of taking those berms out, it's a bit too paved the way it is

[wilkez]

another comment i want to add about this whole thread about bike shops giving money to people. here's how i see it:

bike shops can donate thousands of dollars if they want, but somebody still has to get off their ass and do something with it. its great if you can buy shovels, nails and tool, but you still need a person to operate it!

im not certain, but i dont think there is a lack of trail maintenence becuase NSMBA doesnt have enough money...last time i heard at the agm there were no catastrophic money issues at hand. the problem is people out building the trails. at trail days that i went to this year, we had max 30 people at them. I remember back inthe day we used to scrounge up 50-70 people no problem. and how many people who ride bikes actually do some maintence even once a year on a trail on their own time. nevermind that, how many riders on the north shore actually even takethe time to stop for 5 minutes and pile some rocks?

the problem lies not in the money that bike shops could give us, but having people to use the money given to us. the only solution is to find more people to work on trails, and that seems to be a very difficult task these days.

[synchro]

Originally posted by wilkez
another comment i want to add about this whole thread about bike shops giving money to people. here's how i see it:

bike shops can donate thousands of dollars if they want, but somebody still has to get off their ass and do something with it. its great if you can buy shovels, nails and tool, but you still need a person to operate it!

im not certain, but i dont think there is a lack of trail maintenence becuase NSMBA doesnt have enough money...last time i heard at the agm there were no catastrophic money issues at hand. the problem is people out building the trails. at trail days that i went to this year, we had max 30 people at them. I remember back inthe day we used to scrounge up 50-70 people no problem. and how many people who ride bikes actually do some maintence even once a year on a trail on their own time. nevermind that, how many riders on the north shore actually even takethe time to stop for 5 minutes and pile some rocks?

the problem lies not in the money that bike shops could give us, but having people to use the money given to us. the only solution is to find more people to work on trails, and that seems to be a very difficult task these days.

maybe we should have a trail builder's strike one fine day on the weekend and picket the trail heads.

*edit* - i'm serious about this one.

[wilkez]

Originally posted by synchro
actually i was thinking of taking those berms out, it's a bit too paved the way it is

its the steepest version of aline you have ever seen...wait till i show you the future jedi lines to come

[wilkez]

Originally posted by synchro
maybe we should have a trail builder's strike one fine day on the weekend and picket the trail heads.

i think we should do that, we should also demand higher wages from the government and get some kind of benifits and insurance for our dangerous work

[LeeLau]

tyler - i hiked crippler the other day and its holding up really well. All the drains are unplugged and all i might do is just narrow up the lines on the steep section leading into the bridge like we talked about before you left

[Putty]

and beer, we need beer.

i have put myself on a beer hiatus until i get my new bike, but after that i will need a lot of beer. and i mean a lot of beer.

did i mention i will need a lot of beer?

[Mr Ripper]

Originally posted by wilkez
...and how many people who ride bikes actually do some maintence even once a year on a trail on their own time. nevermind that, how many riders on the north shore actually even takethe time to stop for 5 minutes and pile some rocks?


I stopped and gave PD 4hrs building that new skinny option. But it really suprised me how many people didn't even slow down.

And as far as this population growth is concerned, that is some scary shit, and gives me more justification to move back to K-Town.

[sanrensho]

Originally posted by wilkez

bike shops can donate thousands of dollars if they want, but somebody still has to get off their ass and do something with it. its great if you can buy shovels, nails and tool, but you still need a person to operate it!

True, and that's why many people including myself would like to see paid trail maintenance crews.

Of course, some (if not most) trail builders will always build/maintain without expecting renumeration. However, having a paid position would allow one or more trail builders to devote more time to building/maintenance than they could otherwise.

[wilkez]

Originally posted by LeeLau
tyler - i hiked crippler the other day and its holding up really well. All the drains are unplugged and all i might do is just narrow up the lines on the steep section leading into the bridge like we talked about before you left

sounds good lee, thanks for looking after thing

[ReCkLeSs RiDeR]

Originally posted by wilkez
I dont know ifi ever mentioned this on the board, but there is a shop in bike zone called surrey. one day i took the boys from the shop down lower crippler, the trail and i have (almost) finished. The guys from the shop were just amazed, and about a month later they gave us $200 bucks cash to cover our tools, transportation and materials costs becuase they wanted to support us. Not only that, they gave us another $100 bucks about 6 months ago.

$300 bucks may not sound like a lot, but it rented us a chainsaw twice and bought us some new tools.

I dont know how much money Bike Zone in surey is making, but they are very good guys supporting mountain biking. When nigel and i made a sign (that he screwed up so its not up at the entrance yet), we put their logo on it as well as NSMBA on the bottom corners to let everybody know who helped us out. I hope you guys go help them out too.

so that is just one more example of why surrey is better than north van...:) or at least smarter when it comes to business...


did you tell him you guys were going to go to pg? because a little while ago he said he had some more cash for you guys. He asked if you guys were still working on it and I said yes.

[DaveM]

We actually got a donation from a fellow trail builder because our trail is his favorite trail to ride these days. Now that's appreciation!

[axisofevelknievel]

Originally posted by CreamyCanuck
The second chart shows the GVRD to hit 3 million people by 2030, note that we are currently at 2 million people. These stats are used for city planning purposes and here sits the problem. The chart is almost 100% linear. Analysts project the GVRD region (people, economy, needs) to boom at an exponential rate in the next 6 years and project an increase of 1 million people.

Either someone's math is off or I don't understand what you're saying. If there are already 2 million people, and it will grow to 3 million by 2030, then that means the population will go up 1 million people in 25 years. But if it will also go up 1 million people in the next 6 years, does that mean it will stay at 2 million from 2010 to 2030?

[terrorfirma]

Hmmmn some really interesting threads.
What if some of the industry types were to instead of sponsoring a trail, actually sponsored a trailbuilder instead.
You know...kinda like you've got your freeride team, and your downhill team, maybe road, etc...and you had your trailbuilder team...maybe it's only one guy, but it's better than nothing.
Then what happens is the company and the builder sit down and negotiate what's required for him to do his job and what level of sponsorship is needed. It could be as little as bro deals on parts or up to a full paycheck...just like riders who are sponsored by companies now.
I think it's a win/win because the company gets to show they're putting something back into the community, and the builder doesn't have sacrifice his time or money.
Just a thought...
Do you think this might work?

[DaveM]

I think the money needs to go back into the entire trail network, not to selected builders. The NSMBA knows best where money needs to be spent. That's where I think the donations or sponsorship should go to.

Bottom line is, and it's been mentioned already. The sport needs more people to do the work more than it needs more funding.

[wilkez]

Originally posted by terrorfirma
Hmmmn some really interesting threads.
What if some of the industry types were to instead of sponsoring a trail, actually sponsored a trailbuilder instead.
You know...kinda like you've got your freeride team, and your downhill team, maybe road, etc...and you had your trailbuilder team...maybe it's only one guy, but it's better than nothing.
Then what happens is the company and the builder sit down and negotiate what's required for him to do his job and what level of sponsorship is needed. It could be as little as bro deals on parts or up to a full paycheck...just like riders who are sponsored by companies now.
I think it's a win/win because the company gets to show they're putting something back into the community, and the builder doesn't have sacrifice his time or money.
Just a thought...
Do you think this might work?

i think what you said right there is about as close to a working "paid trailbuilder solution" as we could get right now. now you just need to convince some company to do that!

and chad, i think rob knows we are gone...i told the guys a few times i would be gone for winter. He gave us money near the beginning of summer, thats probably what you are talking about.
we will be back at xmas, so we can see everybody then. if rob wants to talk to me, give him my email addy (wilkez@telus.net)

[ReCkLeSs RiDeR]

okey dokey tyler that was proboaly it then. when you come back and you need help tell me Ok? I will be home. how is pg?

[Putty]

Originally posted by terrorfirma
Hmmmn some really interesting threads.
What if some of the industry types were to instead of sponsoring a trail, actually sponsored a trailbuilder instead.
You know...kinda like you've got your freeride team, and your downhill team, maybe road, etc...and you had your trailbuilder team...maybe it's only one guy, but it's better than nothing.
Then what happens is the company and the builder sit down and negotiate what's required for him to do his job and what level of sponsorship is needed. It could be as little as bro deals on parts or up to a full paycheck...just like riders who are sponsored by companies now.
I think it's a win/win because the company gets to show they're putting something back into the community, and the builder doesn't have sacrifice his time or money.
Just a thought...
Do you think this might work?

I like that idea, give the builders a break...they get something for something...it does not have to a money, but deals on whatever.

It's not a cheap sport at the best of times.

[Late Bloomer]

While supporting NSMBA does help the trailbuilders, I would have to believe that it isn't enough to cover the full cost of materials, time and efforts (food, drink and man-hours).
The manufacturers should be in on the equation as well, IMHO. After all, without the trails and proper maintenance of those trails, they stand to lose out on precious sales revenues themselves.
I totally like the idea of trail building teams and the sponsorship of them.
Regardless of whether or not this would ever happen, I am sure that they will still build/maintain out of pure passion.
Being an unemployed builder (worked trails 4 solid days in the last week alone) I should know.:)

[BigJ]

the paid trail builder thing works good at Whistler, where they have paying customers coming in..

..so you need similiar funding for paid trail builders on public land, taken from whoever is making money from the trails (the bike industry)?

[switch]

Originally posted by putty, Iraqui minister
there is no mud on pangor. and there are no infidels in baghdad.
http://www3.telus.net/switch/misc/07-minister.jpg


I used to be of the thought that the local bike shops don't contribute nearly enough. But it's not that simple. The bike you bought to ride the shore - well, the bike manufacturer just profitted from the trail. How about the people making the components, like Shimano, Race Face, Hayes, Easton, etc. Then there's the clothing people, like Roach and Fox. And how about hydration? Or lighting systems? The list goes on.

So why lean on local bike shops? The North Shore shops already sponsor trail days, providing food and shuttles. A shop like On Top doesn't have near the revenue of a RM or Norco. What the local shops do is great, IMO. At least they are all very supportive.

The issue isn't one of money. It's not really expensive to do trail maintenance. A couple yeas ago JG and I redid a lot of the lower structures on Ned's. We paid for everything. I think I spent $100 on just nails. Sure, we could give the money to the NSMBA, and have them give us the nails, but what's the point? Plus, what's $100 to give back to what I enjoy so much? It's the cost of a single decent tire for a DH bike.

Matt from the LSCR said he would provide items; items from Spanish drains to California mudflaps. I'm pretty sure that if anyone wanted to repair a broken ladder on a trail in the LSCR, Matt would deliver the supplies to the site.

The issue is one of "manpower" (for lack of a better politically correct term). If Mark had someone helping him every 2nd day he worked on his trail, he's probably be pretty much done. If someone hiked a trail with a bucket and a shovel, and did the required drainage/rock work on that trail, the cost would be that of a bucket/shovel, and the trail would be in much better shape.

If more riders did trail building - say double the number of trailbuilders to 0.2% of the number of riders, there would be no maintenance issues.

And getting youth involved is crucial. A lot of the trail builders who put in the numerous hours are older people. Look at how much work has been done by people like Digger or Peter Morin or PD. Seeing the dedictation from Tyler and Nigel gives hope for the future; we need more dedication like this.

[FOX]

I've been meaning to start a thread on the work I've seen lately.

I've been riding Squamish all summer, but have spent the last weekend on Seymour - and was blown away by all the work that has been done.

PROPS to all involved.

Ya - .243 donates a complete set up to NSMBA, but after what I've seen I'm going to make that two sets.

I would love to do a complete bike next year.

It would be cool to have a trail builder profile page on NSMB to give props to the individuals and groups building and maintaining trails.

CAM - U LISTENING???????

I also think these peopel should be sponsored as part of teams - backend sponsorship.

Yap yap - I got to get back to my morning coffee and porn.

FOX

[FOX]

Another note for you builders:

- I have a big ass truck, that I can use to help shuddle supplies up mountains like Grouse (if we have a key to the gate).

- and it just dawned on me whe someone mentioned "beer":

Because there is so little money in this industy, I do a little side security work (special opp. evactuations). On one job we ended up with several large kegs of beer. We don't know what to do with them, and I don't drink. We would need the kegs back, to return to the company that owns them.

FOX

[sAFETY]

I think this builder component of a team has legs.

Anyone from the inustry (other than FOX) care to comment?

[Sharon]

Originally posted by FOX


Ya - .243 donates a complete set up to NSMBA, but after what I've seen I'm going to make that two sets.

I would love to do a complete bike next year.

It would be cool to have a trail builder profile page on NSMB to give props to the individuals and groups building and maintaining trails.

FOX

Fox you're great! I have another idea for the second set, how about just a trail builder draw!

The trail builder profile is a great idea as well. I'll put that on my list as a winter 'to do' project.

Getting the bike industry more involved in the trails is a great idea. Their reluctance, I think, has to do with perceived liability, tangibles they will get out of it, they are already supporting bla bla bla. Last year, thanks to Peter Campbell, we did get some more corporate support;

http://www.nsmba.bc.ca/cms/index.php?option=displaypage&Itemid=74&op=page&SubMenu=

Thanks!

I would like to expand on this and have it grow by having more businesses support the NSMBA so that through us they will support the trails. This will allow us to hire a trail director to more efficiently run trail days, to have more smaller trail days and evening trail days to work on 'hot spots' and to eventually create a trail crew.

Whistler is a great example. The BIGGEST difference is the support they get from the municipality. The municipality gives them $10,000 / year for a project. This was how Comfortably Numb got built and River Runs Through it got regenerated.

The Alpine Study open house that will be held on Sept. 29th. will be a great venue to get this idea across to the district. The LSCR is on board ( CBC/Neds/Corkscrew) but the district still doesn't know what direction it should go.

[synchro]

Originally posted by FOX
Another note for you builders:

- I have a big ass truck, that I can use to help shuddle supplies up mountains like Grouse (if we have a key to the gate).

- and it just dawned on me whe someone mentioned "beer":

Because there is so little money in this industy, I do a little side security work (special opp. evactuations). On one job we ended up with several large kegs of beer. We don't know what to do with them, and I don't drink. We would need the kegs back, to return to the company that owns them.

FOX

Eric, PM Sharon, we can use it at the NSMBA year end wind up party for all our volunteers.

thx

[Putty]

how long does kegged beer last? when is the party?

[synchro]

Originally posted by putty
how long does kegged beer last? when is the party?

here's a better question; who said you were invited?

[Putty]

i never go to those anyways....mr. friendly. i was just curious.

i didn't realize you were the NSMBA social co-ordinator on top of master trail builder.

sorry.

[synchro]

Originally posted by putty
i never go to those anyways....mr. friendly. i was just curious.

i didn't realize you were the NSMBA social co-ordinator on top of master trail builder.

sorry.

:lol:

ok, you can co.... show up if you want to. you're entertaining enough to have around and your work is steadily improving. another year of instruction under the tutelage of dwicks and you should be ok.

ps - HI!

[Putty]

great, glad to see you approve of my miniscule efforts.

take a look at countersunk, notched log rides on pangor done about 2 years ago, roughly at the same time you were whackin it in bunny's shower to a hasquavarna catalogue.

HI.

are you going up there this weekend? i may do some pangor work.

[synchro]

Originally posted by putty
great, glad to see you approve of my miniscule efforts.

take a look at countersunk, notched log rides on pangor done about 2 years ago, roughly at the same time you were whackin it in bunny's shower to a hasquavarna catalogue.

HI.

are you going up there this weekend? i may do some pangor work.

lol, i approve of your other miniscule things too putty.

i'm helping a friend move sat morn and then plan to be on seymour from about 11:30am until 7pm. i going up there today too, 2:30 till 7. i might go hike around tnt with derwood for a bit, checking out some fresh lines.

sunday i ride.

btw, it was a stihl catalogue and lee's shower - how could you forget our special time together?

[Putty]

Originally posted by synchro
how could you forget our special time together?

33 seconds was a special time for you, but not long enough to register in my memory.

i may be on pangor on saturday.

[umbullit]

in response putty.
If pressurized, with CO2 it will last a while.


p.s. are you ready for a stihl?:)

[Putty]

oh yeah, that's how it started....i have a husky, quite happy with it.

after almost a year of non-use it started pretty quick.

[terrorfirma]

I sure hope this thread doesn't die before we come to some sort of solution.
I proposed having a sponsored trailbuilder...just like a team rider.
I am an industry dude and I think it could work.
There are different levels of sponsorship - at the highest level the rider gets a full paycheck... at the lowest, it's usually employee purchases on bike parts...Think about this... would that not be an incentive to get potential builders involved?
I would suggest at the grassroots level the big industry types, got together with their local dealers and created a team. This team would sit down at the beginning of the year and spell out exactly what they planned on doing to reap the benefits of being sponsored. Previous threads stated that it was hard to get people out to work on the trails and that was the biggest issue - not the money. I could be wrong, but I think 99% of the trailbuilders are riders...maybe they're not great riders...but wouldn't it be cool to be on an industry team and be able to get some kickbacks. From my perspective the builders do more for the sport than any of the sponsored riders.
I still gotta think this one through...I'm gonna talk to other industry types and see if this thing really has legs.
In the meantime...lets get some feedback...and hell...how about some proposals!!

[bunny]

we can't take kegs of beer to the bar which is where i had planned to have the party. if an overwhelming majority of you guys want to have it at a (my:() house this year let me know and if eric wants to give us beer we'll have more money to spend on dope. :P

[Joe Dick]

Originally posted by putty
oh yeah, that's how it started....i have a husky, quite happy with it.

after almost a year of non-use it started pretty quick.

easy boys let an ex-professional settle this, Stihl = large wood. AKA large load, low RPM. Husky = smaller wood. AKA low load, high rpm. plus Stihl's are heavy as hell ;) . can't we all just get along... oh yeah, beer!

[Putty]

heavy bad, i hike the saw in a long time. i have a 16 inch bar, and i found so far its all i need.

synchro and i are just e-married, we like to squabble, its good for our sex life.

bunny - putty is all over that. assuming synchro chooses to invite me.

[umbullit]

http://www.bigskybc.com/Photo%20Gallery%20Pictures/p-stihl.jpg

synchro.... putty....

[Putty]

except if it were synchro, he'd need a big chain saw gash in his leg, and my hair is better.

[umbullit]

i did however, find the saw that everyond needs.

http://www.timbersports.cz/navi/timbersports/files/fotografie/12_timbersports_martin_komarek_hotsaw.jpg

[Putty]

that's a two stroke motor bike with a chain instead of wheels. check out the exhaust.

[umbullit]

i know.
I've seen em in action
You could fell a forest in a day.

[synchro]

if i'd hit my leg with that i probably would have needed more than 8 stitches.

[Putty]

check out the cylinder, no wings..is that thing liquid cooled?

[DaveM]

Hey, they gave me the same hat when I bought my Stihl.

Check this out (http://www.hotsaw.com/Page_1x.html) 90hp 500cc. Ohhhh my!

[the flying moose]

i cant really see that pic chris. its a little too small. ;)

[Putty]

that thing would go through zombies like butter.

[umbullit]

sure. a 2stroke is a bad ass saw
but please.. when you can get a V8
http://www.mercurypickup.com/denpred.jpg

[the flying moose]

hahhahaha. thats a badass mofo of a saw for sure.

[CreamyCanuck]

I just had to make it an even 100 replies ;).

[Late Bloomer]

Originally posted by putty
that thing would go through zombies like butter.
I'm still laughing even as I type this post!
Mmmmmmm...zombie butter:drool: