Robin Coope's Street MTB vs BMX

[Straw]

http://www.nsmb.com/trail_tales/coope_09_04.php

I did not like this article. I feel that it is unnecessary for Robin to drag down Paul B and other skilled MTBers simply because they're doing well in street MTB, but grew up in a BMX world.

I felt the article contained a negative, condescending tone. He's implying that anyone who crosses over from BMX to MTB is selling out, like an indie band signing to a big label. He's also saying that the current crop of MTBers are sub-par, which is not the case.

His take on injuries is way off the mark as well. He neglected to mention where the injuries at Crankworx were sustained...in two of three cases, on the big road gap, and in Timo's case, gapping the last step up. It is not a lack of skill that made these injuries happen. It is a very uneducated and selfish assumption to say that Timo, Robbie, and Geoff lacked skill, and that's why they hurt themselves in Whistler.

What we don't need are more divisions in our sport. With this article, Robin is helping to create them.

[Putty]

I think we should start huge battles between the 8speed and 9speed cog people.

There is something worth splintering the community over.

Damn 8 speeders with their smooth shifting.

[TheGiggler]

Originally posted by StrawDog
http://www.nsmb.com/trail_tales/coope_09_04.php

I did not like this article. I feel that it is unnecessary for Robin to drag down Paul B and other skilled MTBers simply because they're doing well in street MTB, but grew up in a BMX world.



i dunno, i didn't get that impression at all, that Robin was slagging any riders.

you read a lot of extra things between the lines... :)

[eeyun]

http://www.bitemelivebait.com/jpg/worms2.jpg

[dirty deeds]

I must admit Coope's piece had me shaking my head. True, those BMX'ers have crazy skills. But why take a big diarrhea dump on mtb'ers because of it. At the end of the day we're all just trying to have a bit of fun, and a few guys are trying to scratch out a living doing it. Chill Robin :)

[rfoubi]

i think hes kind of missing the point IMO. Sure a bmx pro, given a mtb, could go bust some crazy shit in a park, or on some djs, etc, because thats what they do. But thats not what mtb is about, its just one facet of the sport, i mean i dont think that given a mtb, a bmxer would be ripping down circus or something like that. I mean, of course the bmxers are good at the "bmx style" portions of mountainbiking, it doesnt mean that the mountain bike pros suck. For the most part they are not as good at jumping/park as the bmxers, because half the time they are out at whistler, or up on the shore, doing other kinds of riding. The article just made it sound like mountian bike pros have no skill, which is just not true.

thats my 2 cents, and yes, this issue has already been beat to death numerous times

[Team2K]

Originally posted by StrawDog

His take on injuries is way off the mark as well. He neglected to mention where the injuries at Crankworx were sustained...in two of three cases, on the big road gap, and in Timo's case, gapping the last step up. It is not a lack of skill that made these injuries happen. It is a very uneducated and selfish assumption to say that Timo, Robbie, and Geoff lacked skill, and that's why they hurt themselves in Whistler.



Ya gapping the entire box, and then attempting to gap the scaffolding, and parting ways with ur bike 25 feet up in the air lacks skill :rolleyes: I'd like to see someone hit that 35ft road gap on a BMX :P

I'm all for the new school action after watching crankworkx. Paul B was off the hook with his backflips, tailwhips and attempted flip-whip.

If that means that BMXers are gonna cross over to MTB, its no big deal for me... its not like they aren't still gonna BMX

I'm all against those damn 8 speed guys tho! :P

[Putty]

die 8speeders die

[corey@nsmb.com]

I just read it...I think he is poking a bit, trying to stir creative energy, and it's working. I don't think he means to insult.

I do think he is missing the bus comparing the injury stats though. The injuries we are seeing in the mtb comps are different than the injuries he is comparing to (20") and what he spells them out as.

The guys at a comp like Slopestyle are incorporating tricks into HIGH velocity moves...I don't think Robin is giving fair judgement on the lack of skill and experience comment, these guys are going moto-x fast, and moto-x big. Much of the damage being done to these riders is a result of velocity, not the trick itself.

The 20" guys do fall, but the falls are slower speed, with less altitude. Not to say the tricks are not burly, they are beyond what many see as even possible on a bike. Full credit is due.

The "street" thing with mtb's is relatively new. Taking bigger bikes and making them do tricks a 20" bike does deserves more credit. It should NOT be expected that a pro DH'er & Biker X guy should be able to jump into one of these comps and compete with a BMX guy in terms of tricks...that isn't what they have become "professional" at.

That assumption (and saying we should be embarassed) is naive. It's like saying Jay Miron should be able to hop on a DH bike and run a similar time as Cedric. Good luck Jay, but it won't happen...and if it ever did, it would take time.

It is a difficult comparison to make in many aspects...I think the article is well done, but I think it overlooks a few important issues and over-simplifies that which should not be.

[Emmens]

as i have spent many an afternoon talking with robin on this subject i would say that you are all wrong and he is right as this piece of liturature barely scratches his comprehentionand insight to the subject and if given the opertunity would be able to defend his statesments and all the while make you look like a three year old and corey saying that velocity is the difference betwen bmx and mtb injuries in just not true at metro morgan wade was droping in on 6 foot wedge sprinting the distance of a hockey rink then airing of a jersey barrier on top of a another wedge and boosting to the top of a ten fot tall billboard and tring a bike flip out ya you heard me the bike does a back flip and he stays staionary he tried this maybe 5 times and each time hit the contrete from 15 feet up no problem and in a weird position got up and tried again and stopped when he realized in wasn't gonna happen today unlike some mtber who i feel try things that are well out of there skill range and murder themselves whatever hope that sheds some light to it

[corey@nsmb.com]

That was the longest sentence I've ever seen. And I mean that. Wow.




My speed comment was particular to his comments regarding the slopestyle. I guess you had to be there to really appreciate how fast these guys go.

[TheGiggler]

i think this was the KEY


So if never the twain shall meet, how can they meet? The answer lies right here in British Columbia, in Nelson in fact. Here in BC, the mountains run right into town and are accessible to all. So 20" and 26" bikes attract many of the same people and the cultural walls are breaking down. The kids can now learn to ride in an atmosphere where any kind of bike is acceptable, and having fun is the only goal. I foresee a glorious day when the revolution of two-wheel cultural harmony takes wing and rolls across the continent, sweeping everyone, 20" and 26" before it. That day is coming friends, and it will be a glorious one.



this is pretty hard to argue with.

when some of our best pros (e.g. Wade et al) come from a BMX background, how can you argue that BMX does NOT teach vital bike handling skills that you just do not get elsewhere??

they both have their place for sure...

but this current divide between BMX and MTB is just stupid... it doesn't help either sport grow....

[corey@nsmb.com]

Originally posted by statix
but this current divide between BMX and MTB is just stupid... it doesn't help either sport grow....

Well said.

We all ride for the same reason. FUN!

[feelmybrainwaves]

Mountain Bikes have only had a couple of years that they could technologically handle the thrashing we're giving them. BMXers have been able to practice all of this stuff for years. Mountain bikes are finding their place, and people are figuring out what can be done. We're all just riding bikes~ We should have fun and not take it all so seriously.

[LeeLau]

I've always thought that trials riders have the most incredible skills - love the precision of a good trials riders. Of course I suck at trials but one can dream right?

[trout]

That article is really confusing. If i want skills I need a bmx but if I want to have fun I should ride what I want? I think riders get along in Nelson because it's a small town and if you act like an ass you won't have any friends.

Putty- pfft to you and your narrow chain

[M.W.]

Riding my bike is fun.

Who cares?

[Party-Pants and Paul]

I think it's a well written article with lots of good points but there's sooooooo much bias that it's hard to take seriously

[corey@nsmb.com]

Originally posted by Jay T
holy crap....i am so pissed:swearing: that is complete bs...i hadent even heard of robin coope till recently so he cant be that big of a rider..i am so pissed at his coments:swearing::fu: maybe the reason why the bmx guys didnt crash cause as much as cause everything is 100% perfect with zero flaw in the trannies or lips

Re-read it, it appears you have taken it the wrong way.

Robin is a good guy and a good journalist. His intention isn't to offend, but if you read the article in search of controversy it's going to change the way to read it.

He's a rider just like you and I. Take that angry energy and redirect it to looking at the piece from a different angle.

:)

[playahata]

Originally posted by LeeLau
I've always thought that trials riders have the most incredible skills - love the precision of a good trials riders. Of course I suck at trials but one can dream right?

So who would "win" then; trials riders or BMX? Now Im confused!
Hulk or spiderman? Extra crispy vs original?

[01shore_rida]

i think it was a good article. all the comments about how bmxers wouldnt be able to ride the shore or race dh are kind of misplaced. the article is about the new school of mtb not shore type riding and dh racing. robin is correct in saying pretty much any top bmxer would dominate these new school contests. pretty much every new school type contest has be won by an mtber with a bmx background. you can't argue with that.

[corey@nsmb.com]

Originally posted by 01shore_rida
robin is correct in saying pretty much any top bmxer would dominate these new school contests. pretty much every new school type contest has be won by an mtber with a bmx background. you can't argue with that.

Right, that's a good point.

What if, let's pretend, BMX takes an odd turn and begins to have competitions on trails like A-Line...seems kinda out of place for a BMX bike, but the reality is, it is possible (same initial reaction to mtb's arriving on the street/park/dj trails scene).

If, pro MTB Downhillers, decided it would be fun, or a chance to do well, to jump on board a 20" bike and compete in some of these comps, then my money would go on them cleaning house. Trails like that are relatively easy for a skilled pro dh'er to rip on. Once they get used to the bike, watch out.

It's the same situation, but backwards....and I bet it would have very similar results.

It's hypothetical, but it describes a scenario that would be similar to the current one that is the focus of the article.

What is my point...Both aspects of riding have skills that have the capability to cross over and dominate in the other side's court.

Put them all together and you have Super Rider who can slay anything.

[morley]

Wow, there are some really interesting literary assumptions on Coopers work here.

Do you find this article bothering you? If so then perhaps...

a) Some comments are true.
b) It has some inner relation to your own riding.
c) You feel threatened by the article.
d) All of the above

Another interesting observation is that a vast majority of the top MTB Street riders come from a trials background. [Chase, J-Lo, Senechal, Porter, Robinson, Akrigg, Prisle, Trembley etc...] So what does that mean? Nothing, or whatever assumption that you want to create. One thing I do know is that there are lots of riders with different skills sets, some are trying to expand on them while others focus on one specific niche.

Robin does bring up some interesting points regarding “learning serious skills.” If one is wishing to quickly acquire the skills necessary to perform a desired series of tricks and techniques then perhaps a bike with a smaller wheel diameter is in order to enhance ones progression. After all any reasonable analysis can conclude that it’s easier to manipulate a smaller and lighter bike when one is younger and lacking size and strength. And if ones goal is to learn the “serious skills” required to succeeded in a desired sport then it would be optimal if they started riding at the earliest age possible. I do know that in the sport of trials most young riders in Europe start on mod trials bike [20”]to gain the fundamental skills in the sport. So what do you want to do... learn skills, have fun, or mabye a mix of both?

If I was really going to create a credible argument against Robins insight into the world of MTB freestyle it would be on the generalizations he has used in this article. However, this article is not scholarly work by any means. It’s a brief synopsis regarding his recent observations within the cycling industry, and that is all. In the end there are lots of interesting questions that could be asked [and explored] regarding societal influences on sport and the participants involved. Perhaps this would be a good idea for a Masters Thesis?

[GRIZZ]

Originally posted by corey@nsmb.com
Re-read it, it appears you have taken it the wrong way.

Robin is a good guy and a good journalist. His intention isn't to offend, but if you read the article in search of controversy it's going to change the way to read it.

He's a rider just like you and I. Take that angry energy and redirect it to looking at the piece from a different angle.

:)

thanx corey i re read it a few times...and i see what he is saying now...i take back my last post

[LeeLau]

Originally posted by morley
Robin does bring up some interesting points regarding “learning serious skills.” If one is wishing to quickly acquire the skills necessary to perform a desired series of tricks and techniques then perhaps a bike with a smaller wheel diameter is in order to enhance ones progression. After all any reasonable analysis can conclude that it’s easier to manipulate a smaller and lighter bike when one is younger and lacking size and strength.

I'll go one step further and say that not only a lighter bike is required - so is one without suspension

[01shore_rida]

i was also going to make a point about that morley, thanks for bringing that up. you also forgot the 2 main trials riders that have had "street" like parts in all the movies. ryan leetch and jeff lenosky (sp?). it seems trials riders have a big advantage on any normal rider attempting street, on the tech stuff. to your average mtber stalling on your back wheel can be a bit difficult, to your average trials rider its a piece of cake. in the end robins basic point is if you want to get the skills, you need the right tool.

[corey@nsmb.com]

Originally posted by LeeLau
I'll go one step further and say that not only a lighter bike is required - so is one without suspension

I agree. There is no better way to learn how to pick a line, or how to appreciate and seek a smooth landing.

It is a skill builder.

[rcoope]

This was definitely not a scholarly work, more of a screed really. the main thing I want to get people thinking about is that for youngsters especially, riding a BMX (and/or a modified trials bike for that matter) is going to make you a much better and safer rider. The example of injuries in big contests is arguable, but I'm absolutely convinced that the number of serious crashes on A-line and places like the boneyard would be much lower if people really knew how to jump. Watch any mountain bike rider who learned to jump on a BMX as a child, and you will see someone with a million times more control in the air that anyone who learned to jump on a big bike as an adult.

By the way, I was in no way being critical of Paul B and co; Paul and Darren Berrecloth and and the other solid BMX freestyle guys are brilliant riders and league ahead of most of their colleagues. I think that more pro BMXers should try mountain bikes and get past the silly tribal anti-mountain bike bais many of them have. The sport would progress that much faster.

[corey@nsmb.com]

Originally posted by rcoope
I'm absolutely convinced that the number of serious crashes on A-line and places like the boneyard would be much lower if people really knew how to jump. Watch any mountain bike rider who learned to jump on a BMX as a child, and you will see someone with a million times more control in the air that anyone who learned to jump on a big bike as an adult.


When you lay it out like that, people would be insane to argue.

It's the truth. :)

[Bryce]

I knew that article would piss people off!

I think he's spot on

[dirty deeds]

Robin Coope helped build the Ableyard Canyon bridge and he cracks good funnies at Norco trials demos.

[NickS]

First its true all good mtbikers were raised riding bmx.......bc there wernt mtb bikes at the level then. When was the first real good mtbikes that would hold up made around 1990 lets say so if they started riding then they would be 14 or so. Mtbiking is so new it hasent goten the time to develope, people can learn good skills on a mtb there not worse for learning skills. Look at a lot of the new breed of younger riders that are coming into the sport who have rode mtb all there life and you will see a big progression in the sport.

The speed thing is so true though bmxers just arnt going as fast and thus arnt going to get the same kind of injuries. Look at Moto X right now alot of the guys are geting hurt bad, its not cause they lack skill but instead bc there pushing the sport by trying new stuff this is the same as MTbing.

I think mtbiking will move into doing more mtn stuff though, another sport to compare to is skiing where park was really big and still is but the progression is taking the park tricks to the big mtn scene. I think mtbing jsut needs time to evolve and for the price to go down (which is happening now) to make it more accesible.

[Millstone]

neat. I'm going to go ride my 26" bmx now.

[counterpoint]

I don't think it's that hard to figure out...tricks that bmxers have been doing for years, top mtber's are just beginning to do - so naturally, they are further behind. BMXer's have what, maybe 15 years of progression on MTB? Shit, it wasn't even cool to jump a mtb more than 7 years ago.

Mr. Coope is right in all aspects except for one. Skill had nothing to do with the injuries at Slopestyle. Geoff had chain problems before take-off and Timo was in orbit. I don't know what happened to Bourdon. Maybe his bike was too big for his size or something...

[stacy kohut]

bmx freestyle is for radical, progressive,aggressive,hardworking,and 'go get em' punks.
freeride/newschool/freestyle mtb is for over the hill,used up,non progressive,scared to join bmx in the big leagues,marketing scam, and happy to be a big fish in a little pond drunks.
the article speaks the truth.
can ya handle it?
bmx is 5 to 10 years ahead of the mtb world, and its got nothin to do with 20" bikes.

if the new 'gods' of the mtb freestyle scene can hardley hang with the second or third rate bmxers, the obvious is staring you in the face.

racing rules all.
judge events? like figure skating? weak.

[trail worker]

I loved every bit of it.
my opinions are pretty much on par with ryan c
i'm glad he pissed some people off,it makes for a more interesting world.

i still remember robin coming to the norco demos at the sprockids over on the sunshine coast races back 8 years ago and back in those days he destroyed.i remember at one of the comps Ryan Leech was introduced as "a new up and comer..something special"
damn was that ever an understatement!

anyways,i digress..i liked the article.

[trail worker]

Originally posted by stacy kohut
bmx freestyle is for radical, progressive,aggressive,hardworking,and 'go get em' punks.
freeride/newschool/freestyle mtb is for over the hill,used up,non progressive,scared to join bmx in the big leagues,marketing scam, and happy to be a big fish in a little pond drunks.
the article speaks the truth.
can ya handle it?
bmx is 5 to 10 years ahead of the mtb world, and its got nothin to do with 20" bikes.

if the new 'gods' of the mtb freestyle scene can hardley hang with the second or third rate bmxers, the obvious is staring you in the face.
teehee,you said everything i wanted to .i'm glad i didn't just spend 10 minutes typing that out :)
MTB riding is great..i don't even ride a BMX, but it's the truth.mountain biking will always be mountain biking..the act of riding over mountains,through trees in the woods.

[mint]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by rcoope
[B]This was definitely not a scholarly work, more of a screed really. the main thing I want to get people thinking about is that for youngsters especially, riding a BMX (and/or a modified trials bike for that matter) is going to make you a much better and safer rider. The example of injuries in big contests is arguable, but I'm absolutely convinced that the number of serious crashes on A-line and places like the boneyard would be much lower if people really knew how to jump. Watch any mountain bike rider who learned to jump on a BMX as a child, and you will see someone with a million times more control in the air that anyone who learned to jump on a big bike as an adult.

Robin,
I like your article and it got me thinking all day. I think it trys to find where mountin biking is. I also feel ... lets say..funnt, when I watch the x-games bicycle dirt, and the tricks these guys toss. I think the problem (if it is one) is with mountin bikers trying to find ways to create spectacle the way bmx and moto do in x-games type comps. For this they need to get out of the forest and present to a larger audience. It is not that freeriders have no skills or are not good at tricks, but just that slopestyle is just a borrow from bmx dirt and moto freestyle. To me mtb freeriding at the level of the pro's is about discovering new terrain and new possibilities. Lets not forget Red Bull Rampage, where people like Wade realy shine. I was quite sad that at crankworks many of my favourite riders did not look good, because they looke just like skipping over the stuff. Let's face it the biggest jump that paul B did is very easy to do on a mtb.
To me cranckworks proved that freeriding is not something that you do infront of large crowds, it is like putting rockclimbing in a gym.

[NickS]

Originally posted by mint
[QUOTE]Originally posted by rcoope
[B]This was definitely not a scholarly work, more of a screed really. the main thing I want to get people thinking about is that for youngsters especially, riding a BMX (and/or a modified trials bike for that matter) is going to make you a much better and safer rider. The example of injuries in big contests is arguable, but I'm absolutely convinced that the number of serious crashes on A-line and places like the boneyard would be much lower if people really knew how to jump. Watch any mountain bike rider who learned to jump on a BMX as a child, and you will see someone with a million times more control in the air that anyone who learned to jump on a big bike as an adult.

Robin,
I like your article and it got me thinking all day. I think it trys to find where mountin biking is. I also feel ... lets say..funnt, when I watch the x-games bicycle dirt, and the tricks these guys toss. I think the problem (if it is one) is with mountin bikers trying to find ways to create spectacle the way bmx and moto do in x-games type comps. For this they need to get out of the forest and present to a larger audience. It is not that freeriders have no skills or are not good at tricks, but just that slopestyle is just a borrow from bmx dirt and moto freestyle. To me mtb freeriding at the level of the pro's is about discovering new terrain and new possibilities. Lets not forget Red Bull Rampage, where people like Wade realy shine. I was quite sad that at crankworks many of my favourite riders did not look good, because they looke just like skipping over the stuff. Let's face it the biggest jump that paul B did is very easy to do on a mtb.
To me cranckworks proved that freeriding is not something that you do infront of large crowds, it is like putting rockclimbing in a gym.

Very well said, keep it in the mtns and progress with things like movies and pictures.

[Shocker]

ARRRGGG i ahte this argument sooo much...no fricking wonder bmxers are so much bette rthan mtn bike, it takes WAY MORE SKILL... fair enuff but they've also been doing it for 20 years longer than ANY mtb street rider...

are there ANY hack bmx pros??? NO. Look at all the MTB Pros any small town medicore bmx'er could own them on every aspect of biking...

freeriding takes no skill...


EDIT* DH is not a part of freeriding. and the only good freeriders are racers or dirt jumpers.

Any bmx'er can freeride, any DH'er can freeride.

[LivingLegacy]

So does someone wanna tell me where all these big, huge, way better, super spectacular bmx tricks are that mountain bikers can't do?

backflips? mtb's can do em. 720's? yea mtb's can do those too now. im sure we will be seeing a backflip tailwhip any day now. same with tailwhip spins. IMO i think we are starting to close the gap, and those that dont believe should start opening thier eyes.

[FreaK]

some of you guys really bug me. especially with comments like: "keep it in the mountains" and "freeride/newschool/freestyle mtb is for over the hill,used up,non progressive,scared to join bmx in the big leagues,marketing scam, and happy to be a big fish in a little pond drunks".

get real

[counterpoint]

Originally posted by LivingLegacy
So does someone wanna tell me where all these big, huge, way better, super spectacular bmx tricks are that mountain bikers can't do?

backflips? mtb's can do em. 720's? yea mtb's can do those too now. im sure we will be seeing a backflip tailwhip any day now. same with tailwhip spins. IMO i think we are starting to close the gap, and those that dont believe should start opening thier eyes.

You should get out more.

[M.W.]

Originally posted by rcoope
Watch any mountain bike rider who learned to jump on a BMX as a child, and you will see someone with a million times more control in the air that anyone who learned to jump on a big bike as an adult.


Generally someone who learned to jump any kind of bike as a child, and has been doing it for a long time, will be better than someone who learned to do it as an adult. It doesn't really matter what kind of bike, because it has become second nature to them.

[M.W.]

Originally posted by LivingLegacy
start opening thier eyes.

Heed your own advice.

[Shocker]

Originally posted by LivingLegacy
So does someone wanna tell me where all these big, huge, way better, super spectacular bmx tricks are that mountain bikers can't do?

backflips? mtb's can do em. 720's? yea mtb's can do those too now. im sure we will be seeing a backflip tailwhip any day now. same with tailwhip spins. IMO i think we are starting to close the gap, and those that dont believe should start opening thier eyes.


ohh myy goooddd are you ahhh, (((ressist the urge shocker, u dont wana get banned )))


hmmm....LMAO im not even gona bother with this one, thats the dumbest thing ive ever heard, just watch a bmx video, even one from 2 years ago such as FORWARD.

[Shocker]

i just cant actually beleive that people think MTB is even CLOSE to BMX, thats just retarted! aaron chase THE BEST MTB BIK ESTREET RIDER can be compared to a small town in south texas BMX'er...

[Brad Dawg]

Originally posted by Shocker
i just cant actually beleive that people think MTB is even CLOSE to BMX, thats just retarted! aaron chase THE BEST MTB BIK ESTREET RIDER can be compared to a small town in south texas BMX'er...

danny, your a dork, stop while your ahead.

[1crazy mofo]

Originally posted by Shocker
i just cant actually beleive that people think MTB is even CLOSE to BMX, thats just retarted! aaron chase THE BEST MTB BIK ESTREET RIDER can be compared to a small town in south texas BMX'er...

sadly thats the truth, but its just the way things go, i love bolth sports i ride 20 and 26 inch wheels, im no superstar in either but i personally feel bmxing is helping my progression in mtb and the other way around.

[bullit_kid]

Your all a bunch of morons. Arguing isnt gonna make you feel better about mountain biking. Going Nowhere.

[LivingLegacy]

sorry shoulda made it more specific. i meant bmx comps compared to mtb comps. in all the bmx comps i have seen i dont think i seen anything a mtb couldnt do in the same park. plz tell me im not as big of an idiot as i make it look :(

[Trini-dad72]

Well I ride a big bike. I am going to build a 26" street bike. Why? Cause I want to, not because I am going to bust out massive sick tricks and BMX my MTB. I see the story, and it makes sense. Alot of pro "street riders" have been pwned by BMX'res coming in, it's inevitable, truly. BMX will always progress faster and farther, than "street mtb". As for me... Well I'm gonna ride my bikes and be happy. I'll still say hi to the 20" crowd and get respect, cause I respect them and vice versa, I've never had issues with the 20" posse. If people want to make issues and ruin it for everyone, then piss off. We ride bikes. Period.

[downstairs]

why are there so many threads on bmx vs street mtb, bmxers are better, and why does it matter its not like eryopnes riding to be the best in the world

[Islandrider]

Who cares its all fun!? lame article.

[Shocker]

Originally posted by LivingLegacy
sorry shoulda made it more specific. i meant bmx comps compared to mtb comps. in all the bmx comps i have seen i dont think i seen anything a mtb couldnt do in the same park. plz tell me im not as big of an idiot as i make it look :(


thats only jumping, maybe were closer in jumping than park and street, because in park and street theres a gazillion things that havn't even been attempted by mtn bikers............. uhharg i dont even know why im arguing like bulit kid said its not an argument worth arguing....


I like riding park, dirt, street on my hardtail, I have fun. I like riding moutain on my 2 shock bike. I have fun.

[Islandrider]

ITs understandable that bmx owns street over mtb, bmxs are so easy to ride street compared to a mtb, you can progress so fast.

[blunt boy]

I do agree that BMX riding of any type builds great bike handling skills and that when it comes to tricks, BMX is KING. But what happened to the big time BMX pros when they rode their 20" bikes on a MTN X course ala X- Games downhill BMX. They speed and the air looked to be more than many of them could handle. There were huge crashes and only the finalist could credibly navigate the course. The race that I saw the winner cleared the final tranny by a good 15 feet and crashed as he crossed the line. The event was fun to watch and I have respect for anyone who'd ride a course like that on a 20" rigid.

I do think it wa disrespectful to Timo, Robbie and Geoff to suggest that the injuries were caused by
" rider inexperience and lack of training ".
Otherwise I'll buy the rest of the article.

[243_ht]

Compare this entire thing to painting. When you want to paint a small, fine and technical (ok, technical may be a stretch for painting) part of your picture you use a small brush, a more maneuverable and easily handled brush. You don't go get some huge brush, modify it and try to paint that small detail with it. I mean you could do it, but the picture probably wont turn out as well, or be as enjoyable for the artist to paint.

Also an artist who has painted alot of paintings would easily be able to transfer those skills into painting a house, whereas a housepainter probably wouldn't even come close to being as skilled at painting as the artist.

Just use the right tool for the job your doing, but if for some reason you don't, no one should care.

[Dan0]

Originally posted by putty
die 8speeders die

9 speed pride!:D

[DangerBoy]

I think everything has it's place. MTB on mountains is dope it is also pretty cool in a skatepark, however, like 243_ht said, you gotta use the right tool for the right job. Sure MTB in a skatepark is possible, but with a BMX the possiblities open up so much, even on street. It's great you're having fun on an MTB in a skatepark, but if you actually rode a BMX for like a week instead of slagging it then you'll see why so many people actually ride them at a skatepark. BMX is not better than MTB nor is it vice versa. Just right tool for the job

[Matt]

Originally posted by LivingLegacy
sorry shoulda made it more specific. i meant bmx comps compared to mtb comps. in all the bmx comps i have seen i dont think i seen anything a mtb couldnt do in the same park. plz tell me im not as big of an idiot as i make it look :(

you havent seen many good bmx comps then

[rcoope]

I'm glad this article produced such a robust discussion. I'd like to make a couple of observations. I think several respondents have missed the point of the article in that it's not about dividing BMX and mountain biking, it's about unifying them. BMXers should ride 26" because it's fun and many of them could be really good at it, and mountain bikers should try BMX because it's fun and if you do it for a while, you will improve your 26" riding dramatically. The fact is 20" and 26" bikes are good for different things, but there is enough crossover in technique to make riding both useful.

About the size issue: you certainly cannot decouple starting young and starting on a small bike, or short skis, or a 1/2 size violin for that matter. unlike the latter however, you can still benefit from spending time on a small bike even as an adult, especially as a learning tool.

I do have to really qualify the argument about guys getting injured at slopestyle, especially Timo. God knows if anyone on any bike can consistently do big airs and not crash it's him. I've seen a fair number of injuries in dirt jumping events however on mountain bikes, and it's certainly the case that more experienced guys on smaller bikes can get the landing gear out safely a whole lot more often, and not get hurt. Again it's a matter of more experience on a better training tool.

More about MetroJam: The top 16 I alluded to in the article qualified from a pool of something like 70 pros. There's enormous depth in 20" street which is why the standards at the top are so high. Many really good, really well known riders didn't even qualify for the finals. Anyway, next year, people around Vancouver should go to this event. It's extremely well organized. We (my wife and baby and me) paid our $10 each (not the baby) and showed up just for the finals. It was 90 minutes, and started and ended on time. The PA worked well this year, the music was great, and as I said, the riding was at times, heartstopping. This is an absolutely world class sporting event right here in Vancouver and I urge everyone to go.

[Jerry-Rig]

here's my 2 cents....

Crankworx was more a DJ competition than anything else (the winner was on a HT)..... Redbull (Utah) is more of what MTB'ing is all about, picking lines, huge drops, dealing with the elements, gaps etc. (no way someone could win on a HT).
If moutain biking isn't a good spectator sport, who cares.... I'm not a spectator.

Calling freeriders hacks and untalented is the most ignorant statement I've heard in along time. Yeah, Wade, Thomas, Tyler and Ritchie have no talent...... :rolleyes:

[M.W.]

Originally posted by LivingLegacy
sorry shoulda made it more specific. i meant bmx comps compared to mtb comps. in all the bmx comps i have seen i dont think i seen anything a mtb couldnt do in the same park. plz tell me im not as big of an idiot as i make it look :(

Um, in Gravity Games dirt Stephen Murray did a 360flip and a doubleflip in the same run.

That having been said, who cares. I don't ride to be the #1 super world champion, I ride to have fun. I like riding my big bike, it's fun. I could care less if I would be better if I rode a BMX.

[hampstead bandit]

well i hate those 9 speed jerks...8 speed forever :thepimp:


and don't get me started on those bmx guys..grrrrr ;)

seriously, 24 inch is where its at, i can take my finely honed BMX skills and apply them to a faster bike with brakes that work properly, tires that run better over rough ground, and it don't give me a back ache now that i'm in my 30's


BMX rules, MTB rules, its all good people, get out and ride!!

[tashi]

This whole thing is some weak sauce. In what way is BMX ahead of MTB? I've been able to rip a downhill and climb a trail faster than a BMXer for years-so we're way ahead there. They can do more tech tricks- but we can do huge airs that are impossible on a BMX, even for the best of them, so who's ahead now? F-it, it all rules.

Next topic: (mabye Mr. Coope can help us out again) Who's further ahead: trials riders or BMX riders?

See my point? Apples and oranges. Lets all have a good time on our bikes shall we, and remember use the best tool for the job!

[Rynee]

i also felt the article was quite offensive. i don't see the need to divide the 2-wheeled world into 20" and 24/26"

besides that, i'm torn to pieces, i ride 8 speed on one bike and 9 speed on the other one...

[wheeler]

MY newest riding buddy, the guy that bought my hardtail, Spent 6 years on a bmx. Took a 3 year break and then started Mountain biking.
On his third mountain bike ride we went up to mt washington and i was blown away by him. He definately wasnt the fastest guy down the mountain but he was definately the most smoothest an most stylie rideer up there that day Pulling no handers and no footers and barspins and tables. But it wasnt jist his tricks. His smoothness on the jumps and drops and the amount of air he could pull out of each lip was crazy. You definately could see the bmxer in him.

[TylerDurden]

Robin's article said so much of what I'd been thinking ever since I saw the street flick "Forward".

This needed to be said and I don't view it as devisive. My thinking has been: "is it really progressive MTB riding if BMX riders have been doing the same thing (only better) for years?"

Robin's article is not without its omissions and bias. He neglects to discuss the times MattHoffman flat-lined or how many bones he has broke while juxtaposing the Slopestyle vs bmx injuries.

Robin's last soap box was filled with a message: MTB freeriders really should have observed trials skills if they are going to ride the shore well. Meanwhile, the long-travel shore riders like Eamon figured out that drops to flat suck, and that going 2mph isn't nearly as fun as flow. Now we've left the herky-jerky to the guy sitting on top the Norco cube van, and we've got on with the building tranny's, hips, wall rides, road & creak gaps etc.

So with trials' relevancy at an all time low (unless you're DangerDan), the new soapbox is filled with new message on the same theme - get your skills straight MTB-freestyle riders, and take a page or two from BMX.

Personally, I think the message is good one - for mtb riders bent on freestyle. Moreover, I just can't get it up to worship (eg buy the video/bike/signature saddle etc) guys like Chase when I know there's NateWessels or RyanNyquists doing much more complicated tricks with more amplitude.

We've all watched the snowboard media go too heavily into freestyle worship. They're coming out of it now and realize you still need the freeride elements or it just gets numbing and tedious. Yes, show us a lincoln-loop, but now put it in BellaCoola's cornice before you shoot the picture.

Vanderham, Klassen, Simmons and Shandro types should continue to bring in elements of BMX into their lines, but don't put a square peg in a round hole. Stay on the dirt and keep our fire's stoked with great locations and creative lines.

[ryan senechal]

Apples and oranges. I really wish some of you could understand that. Instead I fit nicely into what some of you would generalize as someone who will always be behind (in terms of skill) a sport I am not actually impersonating on the "Wrong tool for the job".

From the outside it makes complete sense why so many are taking sides in an argument that is entirely irrelevant from within the movement itself -- that being the mainstream facets of our little sport in development and those very productions making very slow progression to properly accomodate and showcase the clear original characteristics surfacing. There's more to it than placing the blame solely on their shoulders, because those events/videos/publications are largely in part brought to you by riders involved with the movement.
The primary issue as to why our mainstream representation is not making gigantic steps into justifying our sport in the minds of outsiders is because it is inexperienced, lacking financial backing and most notably, a lack of unity/communication and consistency in regards to *our* agenda from within the sport. Nobody has a clue what's going on and why, but we all have opinions on what isn't and what direction we should be heading. What do you expect from a sport that was more or less a sideproject to kill time in the winters for a number of notable trials/dh/slalom/freeriders not 3 years ago? Let me assure you, it is no longer a side project, and I'm certainly not bothered when outsiders raise their voice on forum sites and question my integrity and compare me directly to a sport which is a single influence in my style. What is your goal by pointing those kind of things out?

If I were to submit a press-release tomorrow to every mtb-news site I can think of stating my revelation (that being everything I hold dear is nothing but a cheap rip-off of a sport that will always be far advanced) and tendered my immediate resignation from any affiliation with the movement, would that be justice in the eyes of some of the more persistant critics insisting we are indeed frauds?

Consider there is more to this genre in development than what you've heard/read/observed, just for a second. There is more to it than just going bigger or being able to hit a line to sketchy for small wheels and rigid forks. There is more to it than using bmx's current trick list at contests or lines at contests as a means to measure this sport's validity. You better believe there is more to it than a comfortable retirement option for aging bmx super pros. It's wide open, the possibilities are yet to be defined and that is what is so exciting. It's apples and oranges, leave it alone.

[downstairs]

evryones thionks if u jump on a bmx ur gonna become super pro and gonna be able to own the park and be just as good as the pros. At first u will suck till u get used to it then u will realize that mtb are just as good for park. when some ride there mtb in a park there to pussy to go in because they might get made fun of, thats because some people are reatrted they sit in front of rails stand on the hips and dont move cause if u do u think ull get yelled at. If you know that park ur fine whjo cares what people say and just ride what u want, andwhen bmxers jump on a mtb people think that no matter what there gonna become pro.. but the only reason there good is because there pro at bmx to and there sorta the same kinda bikes so everyone needs to stop crying

[ES-OH-ES]

Suck it up Boys, street riding is BMX. When you got street riding on your MTB, its called MTB street. BMX is further ahead because that is what they do. MTB will never catch up in that particular area of riding because it is not the main aspect of our sport. I have both a hardtail Dual/dirt jump hard tail, as well as a BMX, if I am going to my local skate park, I ride my BMX because it is better for that particular kind of riding. Don't get me wrong I have ridden street and park on my MTB, but its bringing the wrong tool for the job. You don't bring a rake to dig a hole in the ground if you get my drift...

[peachy-B]

i really don't get why he had to write what he wrote. there was no purpose to it. all it did, for me anyways, was insult the mtn bikers and elevated the bmx... then after that, as if trying to fix it all up, brings both aspect together by saying some "glorious harmony" in the future. if that was good writing then i don't wanna read a bad one from him. we don't need more separation/division in this world and when you write something like that and focuses on the differences and who's better and what not, you're not helping.

it's like saying to your kids. i love u both equally but then favours one over the other. duh!

[Islandrider]

Originally posted by Jerry-Rig
here's my 2 cents....

Crankworx was more a DJ competition than anything else (the winner was on a HT)..... Redbull (Utah) is more of what MTB'ing is all about, picking lines, huge drops, dealing with the elements, gaps etc. (no way someone could win on a HT).
If moutain biking isn't a good spectator sport, who cares.... I'm not a spectator.

Calling freeriders hacks and untalented is the most ignorant statement I've heard in along time. Yeah, Wade, Thomas, Tyler and Ritchie have no talent...... :rolleyes:

:werd: Comparing mtbing to bmxing is a stupid way to spend your time. They are different sports so stop debating over usless shit.

[wheeler]

Why doest moutain biking ever get compared to motocross in the same way then?

[mickey_vonesh]

"To be blunt, if you took the sixteen finalists from MetroJam and gave them each a 26" bike and an hour to get used to it, I guarantee they would all finish ahead of all of the 26" guys at Slopestyle or Bike Battle."

pretty big statement coming from somone who is neither a dirt jump or skate park rider
doesn't seem like it's his place to be saying somthing like that, esp. considering robin hasn't been at any of the recent eastern street competitions like this years rebull ride in baltimore or back to the forest or last years superfest ( or the rye airfield competition I think, tho I wasn't there either so I can't say )

"Mountain bike freestylers are years and years behind the 20" guys. 26" freestyle is actually dominated by ex-BMX guys, but they're not even top 20 competitors"

How long have some of the top bmx'ers been riding?
How long have mountain bikers been seriously riding street / skateparks?

ofcourse bmx riders are going to be way ahead, if they weren't there would be somthing very wrong.

As far as street being dominated by ex-bmx guys, name them.
Lets see robin drop some ex bmx'er names that have been winning contests.
All I can think of is Paul Basagoitia ( who I don't know much about )
Chris duncan
bearclaw
Josh stratt I think
and a few others i'm sure...

I wouldn't say those riders are dominating. Good riders yea, but competition wise theyre far from dominating.

"That guys like Paul could causally borrow a bike and beat all these alleged 26" pros is embarrassing"

this is a real ass hole comment I think. those guys worked their asses off to get to the level they're at and should be proud of what they've done / can do.

"Apparently he had been riding 26" this year and had won the Sea Otter jump event"
2004 Sea Otter Jump Contest Results from www.seaotterclassic.com

1st - Jonh Jeseme
2nd - John Cowan
3rd - Paul Basagoitia
4th - Darren Berrecloth
5th - Cameron Zink
6th - Jamie Goldman

theres a good way to stick your foot in your mouth..

Paul Basagoitia actually came in 2nd place at redbull this past weekend to dave smutok (sp?) and first at the whistler slopestyle earlier this summer, so I'm not trying to say he's a bad rider or anything, he sounds pretty incredable actually.
but to say he embaresed mountainbike pros seems like a stretch


"The safety situation is equally dire. At Metrojam, the pros made numerous attempts at ludicrously hard tricks, took numerous falls, and walked away each time. The last two Slopestyles have resulted in people being evacuated off the course to an ambulance during the finals! It just doesn't look like a professional sport if season ending injuries are common in the actual contest. I know Slopestyle has big stunts and that dirt is unpredictable, but it's rider inexperience and lack of training that's the source of a lot of the problems."

I think it also has alot to do with the speed, amplitude, and lots of rocks to bounce off.
the bmx'ers haul ass and go huge at metro jam yeah, but i have a feeling you might have a little more speed behind you riding down a mountain then from one end of a skate park to another.

when you fall in a skate park, alot of the time your saved by the fact that you slide on the ramps and concrete because its nice and smooth.
sure it still hurts and if you fuck up really nice you can get really hurt really fast, but I think theres a little more leeway when things don't go to plan compared to falling on a downhill run with monster kickers.

riders are going to try to push themselves to try new things in a competition, some of them land it and some of them eat shit and get hurt.

"Needless to say, the BMX guys have been laughing at 26" freestyle for some time now. BMX and mountain biking are socio-economically like chalk and cheese. BMX is blue collar, young, and alienated. Globally, mountain biking is more SUV-driving-establishment, yuppie eurotrash and/or their kids. Broadly speaking, young and not-so-rich kids get stuck in the city, so BMX and skating are, so-to-speak, attempts to bring the pleasure of the trails and ski slopes downtown. BMX guys will not ride 26" as a matter of pride, sponsorship notwithstanding."

theres some nice generalizations..
some of my best freinds are bmx riders.
I think it has less to do with what you ride and more to do with how you ride.
if your a tool, you will get laughed at, doesn't matter if your on a bmx bike or a mountain bike.
I hardly ever get hassled at skate parks by bmx'ers or skaters because after a few runs they see that I'm not a tool.


"Third, it would make the 26" kids realize that a 20" bike is the only way to learn serious skills on two wheels"

oh?
take a look at the footage from last years redbull and then watch this years when it comes out and then tell me those guys aren't learning " serious skills " on a mountainbike.
its unreal how fast some of these guys are learning new shit ( which Bmx riders are partly to thank for )


I don't care what you ride, you could ride a scooter for all I care. As long as your not a dummy and you know how to ride ( whatever it is you ride ) then you will have no problems riding skate parks or street or dirt jumps.

If your a dummy cutting people off and getting in the way, again, I don't care what you ride, you can fuck off and leave.


Edit:
Yes I do know who robin coope is and I have a ton of respect for what he has done over the years for the trials and mountainbiking community and I wish there were more riders like him ( esp. here in Ontario )

[seand]

Originally posted by corey@nsmb.com
Right, that's a good point.

What if, let's pretend, BMX takes an odd turn and begins to have competitions on trails like A-Line...seems kinda out of place for a BMX bike, but the reality is, it is possible (same initial reaction to mtb's arriving on the street/park/dj trails scene).

If, pro MTB Downhillers, decided it would be fun, or a chance to do well, to jump on board a 20" bike and compete in some of these comps, then my money would go on them cleaning house. Trails like that are relatively easy for a skilled pro dh'er to rip on. Once they get used to the bike, watch out.

It's the same situation, but backwards....and I bet it would have very similar results.

It's hypothetical, but it describes a scenario that would be similar to the current one that is the focus of the article.

What is my point...Both aspects of riding have skills that have the capability to cross over and dominate in the other side's court.

Put them all together and you have Super Rider who can slay anything.

I always thought a-line was meant for bmx'ers anyways, so this would be fun to watch!

if you took the top dh bmx'ers and biker cross riders on 20" wheels and put them against the top mtb dh'ers while they were on 20"ers, you really think the mtb'ers would win? the full rigid aspect alone would destroy many a solid fullsquish rider. many dh'ers lack the control that a bmx'er has; especially in the air at high speeds.

the contest would be a riot to watch, but in the end, the same people who dominate on/off the bmx circuit would continue to do so whether or not some rockstar mtb'ers joined in on the 20" fun.

if it were that easy for downhiller mtb'ers to sweep an aline style run on 20" wheels, than why didnt a single one of them enter or win this:
http://www.bmxplusmag.com/detail.asp?id=240

now THIS is a course:
http://www.bmxplusmag.com/detail.asp?id=239

i just cant see peaty winning something like this:
http://expn.go.com/media/xgames/sxg/2001/010813_downhillbmx01_i.jpg

[dirty deeds]

Coope is not the mtb anti-christ. I think he probably just got a little excited when he saw the bmx'ers going off on the weekend and delivered his piece.

All of this is nothing new.

12 years ago when XC was all the rage and there was $$ in mtb, roadies would cross over, and all the talk was of how lame mtb'rs are when washed up roadies can come in and clean up.

Then when the big trialsy influence hit around 8 years ago, people were shocked at how bad mtb'rs really were when guys like Kim Steed could bring his mediocre (sorry Kim) level of trials skills onto the North Shore trails and kill it.

Lately it's been bmx which has been the big influence and the inference (unintended i'm sure) from Coope is that mtb'rs aren't worthy of scraping the dog shit off a bmx'rs wheel.

MTB'ing is a young, exciting and evolving sport with lot's of influences from other biking disciplines as well as unique aspects like downhill and riding stunts.

Just have fun with it. It doesn't matter shit that a bmx pro can do a triple whipple half inverted garbage can to-to with pike. MTB will keep evolving and forming it's own identity and guys will keep pushing the envelope.

[stuart_k]

Comparing them isnt such a moot point when you look at the
cruisers people are calling mtb's nowaday aswell as doing all the "BMX" tricks. You say the two sports shouldnt be compared yet even the "oldschool" mountainbike tricks were probably copyed from a kid on a BMX. Even drops, watch a couple old BMX movies and you will see riders jumping off shit to flat that most of you kids wouldnt even think about doing with your duallies as well as doing stairgaps. All on little wheels with no suspension.

And then there is that age old argument "well sure they are good at tricks but put them on the shore etc...". I beg to differ, as some of you will realize doing those tricks involves an amazing amount of just sheer bike control. And before you think "Oh whatever they couldnt do skinnys.." think again. Go read some BMX mags, watch a movie or two. Some examples, Aaron Bostom rides UP a round handrail at speed, Danny Hickerson round flatrail ride to 180 barspin out aswell as a tailwhip out.

But in all reality what it comes down to is who is the lesser of two, dare I say, evils. Mountainbiking for being the stubborn little 14 year old girl that wont admit that her coverup doesnt cover as much as the other girls or BMX for being the old man set in his ways that refuses to try new things.

Its not arguable that learning tricks on a tiny rigid bike is going to give you more bike control then going out and trying the biggest gap you think you can do on your new $5000 diamond studded full squish. Ask anyone that has ever ridden a MTB then a BMX. The bmx is always easier. Am i saying that BMX is better than mtbing? Yes i am, its a simple fact. That does not mean, however, that i look down on mtbing or look at it as a lesser sport. Hell I was talking about buying one the other day. What you people have failed to realize is that no one should give two shits. I ride my bike for fun. Most of the friends i have are because of bike riding. Would I trade my BMX for a mtb? Probably not but that doesnt mean I wouldnt buy a mtb as a second bike to go ride.

And hey, didnt Wade start his riding on little wheels......

[ryan senechal]

I must say I get a real kick out of people that make inanimate objects out to be larger than life while having more street cred or skill potential than another inanimate object.
What is almost as funny in a pathetic sort of way is the beliefs that the minds making those inanimate objects work are any more or less capable based solely on the particular inanimate object they chose.

There have been some excellent points presented as well as some provocative remarks that have been played out like a skipping record since Chase and Lenosky started showing up in MTB mags and videos. Some of you are choosing not to listen to the remarks because I'm sure you've made your decision long ago, how about you put your negative energies to use somewhere other than a mtb-forum mtb vs. bmx thread. Why does mtb vs. bmx come up in the first place? Is anybody actually trying to outdo the other (anyone that actually participates)?

I bet some of the more resourceful members of this forum could dig up conversations from the archives of other sport's forums (sports that have gone through a similar identity crisis) that are pretty much word for word with MTB and the addition of bmx as an influence debate.

At the end of the day the sport will progress whether you like it or not. You can appreciate just as easily as you can hate it. I really have to reiterate that some of you wave your ignorance flag proudly when you suggest the size of a bicycle wheel is an indicator of potential or integrity. Bicycles don't have ambition, bicycles don't have dedication or determination. Some of you guys should stop listening to what your friends are saying and think for yourselves or something along those lines...

p.s. Robin you shit disturber :)

[Shocker]

Doesn't have much to do with anything but paul basigotia is 17 years old

[SEKTER13]

I think hes right. Although he was deffinately a lil harsh. A BMX is a bike, a MTB is a bike, hell even a MX is still just a bike. All of these can transfer over different skills to each other, why does everyone keep spliting them apart? In the end its a rider on a bike. MTB is a little behind, but its catching up, quickly. What we need is slopestyle to get in the public eye. Xgames ect. Then maybe some BMXers would compete, the bar would be raised(as far as tricks are concerned), then everyone progresses. MTB just needs a kick in the ass to get going. I believe it doesnt lie in the bike at all, but the rider. People with simpler bikes seem to push themselves more, why that is I dont really know. Looks like a job for a socialogist (any on the board?). It seems as though the only diference is the mindset. Im not trying to slag mtb pros, im sorry if it seems that way. They are extreamly talented, but people seem to judge one by there bag of tricks, most mtb pros are wicked talented...on a trail, flowing it together at extreamly high speed. Once more bmxers decide to cross over the sport will be redifined, no more mtb and bmx, just biking. I dont know why everyones bitching, its a good thing.

[marksnet]

i just cant understand why everyone is so worried about what other people think? i kill it you kill it we all kill things

[rcoope]

[i]
p.s. Robin you shit disturber :) [/B]

Ha Ha Ryan, now you see my secret plan. I can't ever remember having seen so many carefully argued posts. It's a challenge in education to somehow harness the internet to help young people work on their expository writing. We need more threads like this.

Wait till my next article comes out.......


Hey Ryan, email me sometime, I don't have a current one for you.

[rcoope]

[i]
p.s. Robin you shit disturber :) [/B]

Ha Ha Ryan, now you see my secret plan. I can't ever remember having seen so many carefully argued posts in one thread. It's a challenge in education to somehow harness the internet to help young people work on their expository writing. We need more threads like this.

Wait till my next article comes out.......


Hey Ryan, email me sometime, I don't have a current one for you.

[coryschwarzmiller]

I think it is very disrespectful to say that many of todays mountain bike stars have insufficent skills. I think that you must not be seeing some of the stuff that is being built these days.
As for bmx bikes, they are designed around the idea of tricks and matching the wheels to the tranny in a very gradual way, which makes the rider strive for perfection. This is what makes them such a good tool for learning tricks and riding in smooth places. I love flowing bowls and skate parks with them because you can press into landings and get that solid feel. They do improve riding skill because they work with skills that you don't use at the same focus point when riding gnarly single track. It's a combination of all segments of two wheeled fun that seems so exciting to me. I think that my personal goal is becoming skilled and getting satisfaction from riding in all diciplines, with a huge emphisis on big mountain trailriding. I think thats where riding is headed as well. To say that mountain bikers are not as controled at speed and in the air is a very wrong statement. I think that Robin is just stoked that he saw some impressive tricks, which is cool, but mountain biking is also very impressive I think you need to see some of the trail riding going down now, you'd probably be very impressed.

[Islandrider]

Yep mountain biking and bmxing are impressive in their own ways, redbull for mtb, metrojam for bmx for example. I think if mtbing was cheaper and more kids could afford it and it was as popular as bmxes, mtb would be just as a head as bmx in the street/dirt styles of riding. But bmx may always be ahead of mtb for street because of the advantages a bmx has for that, as many people have noted alread.

[Shocker]

OK OK I'll restat my views, it appears they didn't come out the way I wanted them to.

Any bmx'er can freeride and any dh racer can freeride --> reennie, graceia, sam hill, paul basigoda, darren beartloth
those are the parts of 2 wheel maham taht require the MOST skill. you dont see any hack DH racers or any hack bmx'ers
but yet theres lots of hack freriders because anyone can do it, see what im getting at........

[Mic]

Originally posted by Emmens
given the opertunity would be able to defend his statesments and all the while make you look like a three year old

What would be the point in making sb look like a 3yr old?
As far as i can see it - only during the last couple years, MTb has opened itself for such stuff as serious street and djing. sure, the 20" folks have been around longer - but does it justify saying that they are more credible than us MTBers ?

As has been posted various times - the discussion leads only to deepening the already existing trenches. I think it is dumb.

We are always responsible for creating the reality we wanna have - and i am seriously opposed to saying 20" guys are better riders, have better handling skills and waaay more tricks to pull off.
Both are born from "riding as a lifestyle".

BTW, the article stressed that mostz skateboarding and BMXing is rebellious whereas the "freeride" thing is more middle-class-ish.....think about this statement just for one minute.
And - hopefully/eventually - you will recognise that this is absolutely NOT true.

[Emmens]

hey mic on your last statement in any major american city who other than well off people are going to be able to afford mtbing
if you were a kid in new york you would probably skate or bmx as there is no mtns 20 minutes form downtown unlike here were anyone can mtb cause it does not require you be well off whatever believe yourself if you like but your wrong

[Mic]

Hey Emmens - at least in europe dj/street bikes have become so cheap that this can no longer be a valid reason for stating that bmx is "blue collar" whereas mtb is more like "yuppie/eurotrash".

This is simply NOT true. I am not wrong. as i said it depends on your point of view and how you construct your personal reality.
If you think your pov is right - ok. go for it. i have a different opinion.

[BRT]

Good on Yah Robin. Takes balls to state your opinion. You have some valid points. It is funny to read of these posts in response to your story.
Ride your bike. Or don't ride your bike. Don't get dragged down by what is hot and what is not. It is a simple pleasure, laugh at yourselves! ahhaha

This link to a movie about different ways we express ourselves on two wheels...

http://www.mtbfilms.com/halfway/

[LeeLau]

Originally posted by dirty deeds
Then when the big trialsy influence hit around 8 years ago, people were shocked at how bad mtb'rs really were when guys like Kim Steed could bring his mediocre (sorry Kim) level of trials skills onto the North Shore trails and kill it.



That is funny! Even Kim will admit that the Trials Pros could kill him in comps.

[grj]

Robin: when you feel the need to ad a dictionary to explain, your name you may want to stick to writing your thesis. by the way, you can't give yourself a nick name, otherwise we would all be called ace or shooter.

Know to my point: a has been, half rate, hack, (not unlike myself) who has NEVER competed in a BMX or a slopestyle event, what qualifies you to determine the skills of either group? your ride trials, remember. If you had ever tried slpoestyle you would understand the sport is based on hitting lines and variations no other rider has or can do. BMX is about hitting the exact same line thousand times so in a comp it goes smooth. This explains the high crash rate.

Point two: bikes are bikes all cool, all fun. Quit drawing battle lines and adding socio-economic labels to wheel sizes!

PS I still think you're cool, just a bit of a blow hard sometimes

[Bukkake]

I don't have a problem with riding street on a MTB but I do have a problem with "street MTB's" Because I used to own one and before that I had a real MTB hardtail that I rode street on most of the time.

My real MTB (2 brakes/gears/26"wheels) was just as good for street as my 24" one brake singlespeed bike.

I got that dedicated street MTB and it did not help my street/park skills and was useless on the mountain. I then got a BMX and my street/park skills improved very quickly.

I guess what I'm trying to say is if you want to ride street on a MTB at least keep it a MTB so you do have the option of taking it to the mountain.

If you are ONLY gonna ride street/park however save yourself some money and get a solid BMX.

Street MTBS are dumb IMO.

[Shocker]

24" wheels are just gay...

[stuart_k]

Originally posted by grj
Robin: when you feel the need to ad a dictionary to explain, your name you may want to stick to writing your thesis. by the way, you can't give yourself a nick name, otherwise we would all be called ace or shooter.

Know to my point: a has been, half rate, hack, (not unlike myself) who has NEVER competed in a BMX or a slopestyle event, what qualifies you to determine the skills of either group? your ride trials, remember. If you had ever tried slpoestyle you would understand the sport is based on hitting lines and variations no other rider has or can do. BMX is about hitting the exact same line thousand times so in a comp it goes smooth. This explains the high crash rate.

Point two: bikes are bikes all cool, all fun. Quit drawing battle lines and adding socio-economic labels to wheel sizes!

PS I still think you're cool, just a bit of a blow hard sometimes
Did you actually read the article or what you just typed? At all? First off in Robins Defense I really dont think he wrote this.

"Robin Coope is an emeritus member of the Norco Factory Trials Team, and continues to organize and MC numerous bike events. He considers himself the eminence grise of the Vancouver mountain bike scene."

Unless of course he's just being a blowhard again and talking about himself in the third person and in italics.......

And picking lines. Are you serious? So your saying every single skate park is exactly the same? Yeah im sure they have 7foot tall bank to jersey barrier to billboards just popping up everywhere. And Robin rides a bmx. And probably whistler.

[Mic]

Originally posted by BRT
Ride your bike. Or don't ride your bike. Don't get dragged down by what is hot and what is not. It is a simple pleasure, laugh at yourselves! ahhaha

This link to a movie about different ways we express ourselves on two wheels...

http://www.mtbfilms.com/halfway/

Nice teaser - i am soooooo glad that there seems to be a kind of "movement" at the moment in which backcountry riding, contests and "just riding along" are all co-existing.
Don't get me wrong but i think most of the media (magazines...etc) has told us for ages that you are only a "cool" freerider if you huck yourselv off the highest obstacle.
Such movies are important for the coming generations.

Thank you.

[ito]

Originally posted by BRT
Good on Yah Robin. Takes balls to state your opinion. You have some valid points. It is funny to read of these posts in response to your story.
Ride your bike. Or don't ride your bike. Don't get dragged down by what is hot and what is not. It is a simple pleasure, laugh at yourselves! ahhaha

This link to a movie about different ways we express ourselves on two wheels...

http://www.mtbfilms.com/halfway/

Just watched that teaser, looks rocking. The shot with the antelope or caribou or whatever running away was awesome, should be a hit. It's also the style of riding I like to see. Big epic mountain biking, integrating techie tricks into the trails and then hitting up the skate park on the way home. The contest footage will be rad I'm sure. Keep up the good work, I look forward to seeing the full length.

As for the article, I'm not sure what his point is. Ok, bmx riders can dirt jump and ride street better than mountain bikers.......ya, what's new? This is like comparing the fact that roadies go faster than XC racers when they race. Mountain biking at the contest leve takes the moves that are influenced by bmx and throw them onto the side of a mountain. Innovative lines and new structures are what the contests try to showcase. The tricks are thrown on a stage that is much larger than a skate park or pack of dirt jumps and that is where the difference lies. No doubt bmx gives riders an edge, they've dialed inthe tricks and style, they just need to adapt it. That's cool, I don't really have a problem with this. I wish I had ridden BMX as a kid, I'd probably a much better dirt jumper, instead I'm trying to catch up. At the same time though I'm trying to get faster on the trails and fitter on the roads. At the same time I've gotten respect from BMXers at the skate park, learned alot from them and have adapted their style to my trails. They school me on the djs and park, but on the trails the tables are flipped. In the end it's bikes and we all ride for a reason, no point in getting frustrated that someone is better than you, just go ride(ironic that thisis coming from a guy who hasn't been able to pedal a bike in 4 months....time off seems to put shit in perspective for you).

The Ito

[rcoope]

Originally posted by ito


As for the article, I'm not sure what his point is.
The Ito

I was at Richmond skatepark last night (on my Moment ha ha) and heard from Heavy D that Ian Moult learned truck drivers on his BMX this summer and can now do them on his 4-hun. That's the point.

ps. I'm waiting for someone to a flare off the base of a tree in the woods. I don't think it's been done yet. That would be cool.

[Roasted]

Originally posted by rcoope
This was definitely not a scholarly work, more of a screed really. the main thing I want to get people thinking about is that for youngsters especially, riding a BMX (and/or a modified trials bike for that matter) is going to make you a much better and safer rider. The example of injuries in big contests is arguable, but I'm absolutely convinced that the number of serious crashes on A-line and places like the boneyard would be much lower if people really knew how to jump. Watch any mountain bike rider who learned to jump on a BMX as a child, and you will see someone with a million times more control in the air that anyone who learned to jump on a big bike as an adult.

By the way, I was in no way being critical of Paul B and co; Paul and Darren Berrecloth and and the other solid BMX freestyle guys are brilliant riders and league ahead of most of their colleagues. I think that more pro BMXers should try mountain bikes and get past the silly tribal anti-mountain bike bais many of them have. The sport would progress that much faster.

God synopsis. I kind of didn't get that point on the first read but really my focus on bmx is pretty low considering Ijust started riding a couple of years ago and even pro size bmx feel ridiculous to me size wise. That said I would LOVE to be able to ride bmx to develop the core skills required for the more advanced stuff and know in the future when I have a child, he will be bmxing for a long time leanring the most basic skills (like falling haha)

Again cheers, there really should be no bounderies. Biking is fun and everything you do on a bike progresses you in other disciplines. Heck I am 100% sure most mountain bikers could progress to bigger jumps and drops if they did motocross as well. We are all on two wheels :)

[FullMonty]

Originally posted by Shocker
but yet theres lots of hack freriders because anyone can do it, see what im getting at........

excellent, so, you're saying... everyone can participate in freeriding?

freeriding wins!

[M.W.]

Originally posted by rcoope
I was at Richmond skatepark last night (on my Moment ha ha) and heard from Heavy D that Ian Moult learned truck drivers on his BMX this summer and can now do them on his 4-hun. That's the point.

ps. I'm waiting for someone to a flare off the base of a tree in the woods. I don't think it's been done yet. That would be cool.

I forgot about calling dave that.

Treeride to flip to fakie in some Match videozine or something.
Treeride to flair, the gonz in ride BMX in like 95.

Ian does clicked lookbacks. It makes me tear up.

[alexh]

http://www.blindmirrorclothing.com/images/ghetoo.wmv

i think this video speaks for itself.

[cookedbananas]

^^^ holy crap that vid was crazy :eek:

[ito]

Originally posted by rcoope
I was at Richmond skatepark last night (on my Moment ha ha) and heard from Heavy D that Ian Moult learned truck drivers on his BMX this summer and can now do them on his 4-hun. That's the point.

ps. I'm waiting for someone to a flare off the base of a tree in the woods. I don't think it's been done yet. That would be cool.

I dig you on that then. I reread the part about mtb'ers learning on bmx bikes, definitely a good idea. I think I get your purpose now, it just took me a bit of reading to get it into my head. Speaking of which, I spent the last few days of my summer riding on a bmx bike....super easy to learn tricks on.

As for a flare, I bet we'll be seeing it soon. I know Chris Duncan has been wroking flares on dirt and I'm sure someone will dial them in soon and take it to the trails.

The Ito

[stuart_k]

whoaa wait a minute here. Ian learned truck drivers on his 4 hun. He doesn't do barspins at all on his bmx because the seat is too low.

[rcoope]

Hmm, not what Heavy D said. See you all at Leeside. Sorry I missed Friday, but having a baby complicates the schedule.

[M.W.]

Everyone knows that Dave's stories are always 100% accurate...

[tashi]

Originally posted by alexh
http://www.blindmirrorclothing.com/images/ghetoo.wmv

i think this video speaks for itself.

Dudes, BMX is soo far behind- Cowan's been doing loops for years...:rolleyes:

[thad]

Originally posted by tashi
Dudes, BMX is soo far behind- Cowan's been doing loops for years...:rolleyes:

That loop is made out of PALLETS.

I think Sideshow, mr. Cory LeClerc is the first mountain biker to do the loop. Mat Hoffman is the first bike rider to do one.

http://www.hcor.net/gallery/album29/85conmanrt.jpg

[tashi]

Yeah, I know. I'm just trying to pint out how silly this whole thing is.

Word.

[2fitty]

i didn't get the feeling that he was being condescending at all.
I just got the impression that he's been to a few contests. bmx and mtb. and has seen the obvious

BMX is far ahead of MTB

BMXers who cross over aren't nessesarily selling out as long as they keep the 20 inch all is good
and if they are kicking the crap out of mtbers well thats because it's easier to learn on a BMX hands down. If you disagree then your WRONG.

the only thing that bothered me was that stuck up eminance grice shit
what a fucking ego holy shit

[ryan senechal]

Originally posted by 2fitty

BMX is far ahead of MTB



Correct, and you're miles behind both of them. Good work.

[MarkV]

ahahahha.

after reading all of this, ive decided that BMXing is better, but i dont care because im not biking to be the best anyways, its all about fun

[Bukkake]

Originally posted by ryan senechal
Correct, and you're miles behind both of them. Good work.


Fuck off! I'm so sick of your holier-than-thou pseudo-philosophical-intellectual-fececious posting style. As far as riding on two wheels go's you're barely a blip on the radar either so dich the ego.

[Roasted]

Jesus people. Can't you appreciate both. I don't bmx...I just can't find one that feels comfortable but I have full respect for bmxers...dhillers...freeriders of the many many MANY various forms...Hell even mxers and roadies...

Just freaking ride...:thepimp: If you ever go pro...congrats...until then...chill (heck even afterwards chill...you don't want to be a pro that is known as an asshole)

[tomatoz]

does it really matter which ridding style is better?
as long as u are out there and having fun doing what u like then it's all worth it...doesn't matter wat other ppl think..rite?

[ryan senechal]

You're reading an awful lot between the lines. All I tried to say is that mountain bikes don't need to be as good as bmx because they are heading in entirely different directions. If presenting a post that isn't focused on "MTB will never be as good as BMX" is facetious, philosophical and excersizing use of intellect (that's quite the compliment, thanks) really gets on your nerves, what would you suggest as an alternative?

Ego on the other hand.. You don't know me in person so take it easy on that word.
Ry


Originally posted by "Bukkake Barak"
Fuck off! I'm so sick of your holier-than-thou pseudo-philosophical-intellectual-fececious posting style. As far as riding on two wheels go's you're barely a blip on the radar either so dich the ego.

[Bukkake]

Originally posted by ryan senechal
If presenting a post that isn't focused on "MTB will never be as good as BMX" is facetious, philosophical and excersizing use of intellect (that's quite the compliment, thanks) really gets on your nerves, what would you suggest as an alternative?




Don't take shots at peoples riding ability.

And yes I have met you in person, it was only once and I doubt you would recongnize me, but you were a snob. I would have enjoyed that ride with you but you were being pretty unfriendly so forgive me for having the impression that you have an inflated ego.

[Mic]

I know I may be pointing a stick, but hey, so did the article (obviously).
I have one question, nay, two:

1) Why don't you just leave the issue alone, personally, i do not have anything against BMXrs, Roadies or XC-guys. We are all riding bikes. For me, that is enough. The "tricks/Ridingability" issue is interesting, but not really of any concern to me anymore. If you enjoy politics, go for it - it is questionable if it changes anything except our own view of reality.

2) Shut up and ride. It is about the ride. always. and a good ride and a good trick will always be perfect/rocking/impressive/ add-your-own-words

Happy autumn trails and don't believe the hype.
Stay true to the game. ;)

[2fitty]

Originally posted by ryan senechal
You're reading an awful lot between the lines. All I tried to say is that mountain bikes don't need to be as good as bmx because they are heading in entirely different directions. If presenting a post that isn't focused on "MTB will never be as good as BMX" is facetious, philosophical and excersizing use of intellect (that's quite the compliment, thanks) really gets on your nerves, what would you suggest as an alternative?

Ego on the other hand.. You don't know me in person so take it easy on that word.
Ry

he's telling you your a fuking idiot because you said i suck, which I do but you don't know that. so you should shut the fuck up
for someone who won't be dissed by people who don't know you your sure quick to diss me someone you don't know.

and mtb is trying to head in the same direction look at all the urban loosers out there trying to bmx on thier MTB's and sucking and saying BMX sucks

BMX is progressing faster than MTB's so in ten year the gap between them will be so big that this issue won't exist

[grj]

that's it! you and me at the back field after school

can we please let this payed post die

[Nelson]

:rolleyes: