over groomed

[Joe Dick]

The last couple post in the most successful trail thread got me thinking. Most trails evolve over time. The ones I ride and build, generally start just barely ride able as game trails and lines hacked out of the woods littered with natural obstacles . as the people who know about the trail goes from your self to a few friends to the general public you keep working them, burming corners, building stunts, taming down the off camber hillsides and attempt to retain the soil lessen the ruts and maintain the flow till it get’s to a point where your able to rail it fast and smooth and the trail retains very little of it’s original feel. Can a trial get over groomed or is it just that so few people see the early stages of a trail that the term over groomed is some what of an oxymoron?.

[synchro]

Yes.

A trail can be built over groomed from the beginning depending on the vision of the builder. A trail can also get overgroomed from traffic - something you can't avoid. That's the big problem with a successful trail, just look at UOC. Personally I prefer what I like to call old school - natural drops, loamy ground and not a lot of built up structures. But it's pretty much impossible to keep a trail like that because once word gets out the traffic hits the trail and then it's all over. I only know of three trails left (on the shore) that are like this.

I have had to go groomed/buff from the get-go with my new trail simply because of the traffice it will see and the kind of terrain i'm dealing with. I would definitely call it new school. My next project I want to be totally old school, but how it evolves will totally depend on how much traffic it gets.

[Loopie]

All stages are fun:)
Not everyone gets to enjoy them at each stage or even/especially the earliest stages.

[NickS]

its more about the style of the builder, around here theres way more ungroomed stuff all natural rocky rooty stuff rather than the one big stunt trail.

[playahata]

Its just really nice to get out into the woods and enjoy the air and trees. Im in SF/Bay area, and damn do I ever miss the forest up there. Sometime we forget how lucky we are up in BC.
*sniff*
All the trails up there are freakin awesome, over the spectrum of UOC to bookwus.

[ReCkLeSs RiDeR]

It depends on the style of trail I think. Like Platinum at the woodlot-it is made smooth with nice berms and jumps-flowy stuff. It is good like that but upper oil can is different, there is lots of rock work, but I think without it and the amount of riders it sees it would be a real mess. I would rather ride a well built trail like uoc with the rockwork than uoc all rutted out.

[IFO]

yes its def. possible...

the beginning of Pingu on Seymour is a prime example of a technical trail that was over groomed to become 'easier to ride"

i def. perfered it when it was eroded and more nasty to ride....

;)

[Smoke]

It's all about #'s. If a trails usage stays below a certain level, then you get to ride on that loamy, springy turf. Things like slope, rain, etc can change that usage level dramatically. Those trails don't exist anymore, and anyone who beaks off about how such and such a trail is still like that should just...

... SHUT THE HELL UP ...

... so that nobody finds 'em.

Trails like CBC need to go through the fresh stage, the "BlackDeath" stage (where the new entrance is currently in), the hacked out stage (just before the Gerbil Cage), and the buffed out stage (all those sweet berms and boardwalks).

The problem with leaving a trail in the hacked out stage is that it will soon succumb to the "unrideable, eroded down ten feet creekbed stage", which is undesirable. Wait a couple of years. It'll get chewed down to nastiness soon enough.

[synchro]

Originally posted by Smoke
Those trails don't exist anymore, and anyone who beaks off about how such and such a trail is still like that should just...

... SHUT THE HELL UP ...

... so that nobody finds 'em.


The problem with leaving a trail in the hacked out stage is that it will soon succumb to the "unrideable, eroded down ten feet creekbed stage", which is undesirable. Wait a couple of years. It'll get chewed down to nastiness soon enough.

hey, i didn't even say what mtn, just that there's a couple left - one of em is even on your maps

i think that with good drainage and a trail being purpose built for drainage, you can avoid the "paved" stage and just keep it at the gold dirt stage.

the only thing that keeps the loamy stuff around is hardly anybody riding the trail.

[Smoke]

The STHU coment was just a pre-emptive strike. Nothing personal.

Say it in a Chris Farley voice, then go smoke a DOOBIE IN YER VAN...DOWN BY THE RIVER!!

I think gold is the same as paved. Similar kind of effort goes into the trail prep.

Lots of the trails Daryl's maps are still loamy. If ya gotta pedal somewhere on 'em, then they're loamy.

[Joe Dick]

Originally posted by Smoke
If ya gotta pedal somewhere on 'em, then they're loamy.

word. the best way I've found to limmit trafic is to have every trail start with a substantial single track climb. I personaly refuse to build anyplace that can be shuttled. thats just me, but it's my time and my effort.

[Zedbra]

Originally posted by Joe Dick
word. the best way I've found to limmit trafic is to have every trail start with a substantial single track climb. I personaly refuse to build anyplace that can be shuttled. thats just me, but it's my time and my effort.

I like your thinking. And SMoke is right - the only loamy trails I know involve a substantial hike in.

[Late Bloomer]

If you guys/gals want a good laugh, come to Seatac someday and listen to some of the locals there whining about having to climb back up the 60 ft. of vertical via. paved road to do another run.
:crybaby::lol:
With that said, I totally agree w/ Joe Dicks' perspective and Smokes' loamy theory.

[trail worker]

loamiest trail on the shore ive ridden was......._ _ _ _ _ _ _.

i'm used to the sunshine coast where everything is pretty buff. its fun,but i like a good mix of both.
ive been tempted to build a trail that i wanted old school and get a couple dirtbikers to rip up it haha...because on the coast you won't get erosion for 50 years theres so few riders. :lol:

[skimtb1]

When I rode woodlot, it seemed almost too smooth.....

[derwood]

Originally posted by Smoke
The STHU coment was just a pre-emptive strike. Nothing personal.

Say it in a Chris Farley voice, then go smoke a DOOBIE IN YER VAN...DOWN BY THE RIVER!!

I think gold is the same as paved. Similar kind of effort goes into the trail prep.

Lots of the trails Daryl's maps are still loamy. If ya gotta pedal somewhere on 'em, then they're loamy.
I can think of a hand full of trails on one mountain that are loamy either because theyve been forgotten and "regrown" themselves,or the new masses cant find em.
I guess having been around before the freeride fad took off has its perks!:D

[TheGiggler]

Originally posted by derwood

I guess having been around before the freeride fad took off has its perks!:D

or, knowing the right people :)

[Smoke]

I rode ......._ _ _ _ _ _ _. just the other day. And we did __________-- and _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _-----...... as well.

So very tired after.

[Late Bloomer]

Originally posted by Smoke
I rode ......._ _ _ _ _ _ _. just the other day. And we did __________-- and _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _-----...... as well.

So very tired after. Sickness!! What kind of shape was _ _ _ _ _ _ _ in?

[switch]

Originally posted by Zedbra
And SMoke is right - the only loamy trails I know involve a substantial hike in.

There's a one (or more) that don't. ;)

[DaveWicks]

Over grooming (aka dumbing down) seems to be the natural progression of things as a trail gets worked on and developed. This leads to the loss of natural technical lines. As far as I can tell this is for two reasons.

1) The "whistler experience" has given riders a taste of flowy and burmed trails- which are a hoot- leaving them wanting a similar experience on local trails.

2) When you are building and repairing a trail (especially with rock work and cribbing) over muddy or rooty sections it is difficult to NOT make it smooth. You spend hours hauling material and busting your butt.... you feel like you have to make it smooth as a monument to your effort. I mean why spend all that effort and make it rough and uneven. As a regular trail builder, I have fallen victim to this many times.

A trail like UOC or CBC are a wonder to behold, a great ride once and a while, and definitely need for the masses, but if all the trails were like these, mountain biking would be bland to say the least.

Saying all that to say, over grooming of a trail is not inevitable and I beleive that with careful design and creative trail maintenance it is possible to build sustainable trails which remain technically challenging and as natural as possible.

Comments?

[TheGiggler]

i agree completely Dave. :)

i think the main thing to remember is that not all the shore trails will receive this treatment (hopefully).

if you wan't to get off the rock work, try any number of trails for your 'gnar': starfish, bitches, digger, lower oilcan, 5th horseman, sex boy, etc, etc.

i can understand why people miss the gnar on certain trails that are being restored to their original condition. but then i ride the same trails on my old-school hardtail and it's a blast... the rock work really does make the trails a lot more fun unless you are on a big bike. so, if the trails are getting too easy, then you need less suspension! ;)

what i really can't understand is why people get so worked up about this issue... there is no shortage of unpaved gnar on the shore. and unless they are actually doing work themselves, they have NO RIGHT to critisize the builder's efforts IMO.

[LeeLau]

Originally posted by DaveWicks
Over grooming (aka dumbing down) seems to be the natural progression of things as a trail gets worked on and developed. This leads to the loss of natural technical lines. As far as I can tell this is for two reasons.

Saying all that to say, over grooming of a trail is not inevitable and I beleive that with careful design and creative trail maintenance it is possible to build sustainable trails which remain technically challenging and as natural as possible.

Comments?

Yes!!! Case in point - Comfortably Numb or Kill Me Thrill Me in Whistler.

I think building lots of switchbacks into a trail does it. You then have to prevent cutting the switchbacks.

Also putting in little xc bits into a trail helps with sustainability.

[Bryce]

Ladies is pretty good for not getting paved out - its been ridden a ton and it still has good techincal stuff. No loam though.

[synchro]

Originally posted by Bryce
Ladies is pretty good for not getting paved out - its been ridden a ton and it still has good techincal stuff. No loam though.

but some parts are getting slowy trenched out

[playahata]

Originally posted by statix
i
what i really can't understand is why people get so worked up about this issue... there is no shortage of unpaved gnar on the shore. and unless they are actually doing work themselves, they have NO RIGHT to critisize the builder's efforts IMO.

A theory: Its just a fashion backlash. Same thing happens in music scenes too; the ole "Yeah, that album is good, but I liked their earlier stuff better" syndrome. Usually in response to a band becoming better musicians, more production values, etc etc. To be sure, there are old schoolers out there who genuinely like the old stuff (Lee?), but most people out there just like to spout off.
Just a theory. Im prolly just spouting off myself.
I like your suggestion tho; ride a rigid, then bellyache about the "paving"...

[LeeLau]

Originally posted by playahata
A theory: Its just a fashion backlash. Same thing happens in music scenes too; the ole "Yeah, that album is good, but I liked their earlier stuff better" syndrome. Usually in response to a band becoming better musicians, more production values, etc etc. To be sure, there are old schoolers out there who genuinely like the old stuff (Lee?), but most people out there just like to spout off.
Just a theory. Im prolly just spouting off myself.
I like your suggestion tho; ride a rigid, then bellyache about the "paving"...

I like the slow techy stuff in large part because Im useless at speed but half competent at roots and slime. I don't know if everyone who likes drops to flat and roots and loam also feel the same way I do,

Another reason is that Im much less likely to get hurt going slow as opposed to going fast IMO

[dirty deeds]

I liked the entrance to Espresso just the way it was, down the chundery rock but it got the treatment yesterday.

Unfortunately, sometimes things get 'fixed' that don't need fixing. Then that opens up the trail to more people and sensitive areas further down the trail end up getting beaten to shit.

[DaveWicks]

Originally posted by dirty deeds
I liked the entrance to Espresso just the way it was, down the chundery rock but it got the treatment yesterday.

Unfortunately, sometimes things get 'fixed' that don't need fixing. Then that opens up the trail to more people and sensitive areas further down the trail end up getting beaten to shit.

Yes it did get the "treatment." I had a hand in it. That's what got me thinking about this whole thing.

Hopefully we can make a shift away from such "treatments."

[dirty deeds]

Originally posted by DaveWicks
Yes it did get the "treatment." I had a hand in it. That's what got me thinking about this whole thing.

Hopefully we can make a shift away from such "treatments."

I read your mind young fella'. I could see it in your face when you rode off yesterday. ;)

[TheGiggler]

Originally posted by dirty deeds
Unfortunately, sometimes things get 'fixed' that don't need fixing. Then that opens up the trail to more people and sensitive areas further down the trail end up getting beaten to shit.

yea that was/is a concern.

the new entrance may give some the wrong impression...

and then they'll shit themselves when they get to synchro's new rockface that has no alt. line :) :)

[Sharon]

I too was kinda saddened by the entry buffness now. But we won't have to go back to this trail for awhile and it will develop its gnarl again.

I think its good that we have some trails for the masses, and that we can ride in the rain without causing more damage then the rain.

If this keeps the masses off the old school trails then its worth the sacrifice.

like statix said, if the trails are getting too easy for you, put the 2.1 fire XC pro's back on.

If you want loam go to the sunshine coast, or burke for that matter.

[synchro]

let's just put some oil sprayers by the side of the trail at the entrance, that will keep things interesting

[Smoke]

Originally posted by Late Bloomer
Sickness!! What kind of shape was _ _ _ _ _ _ _ in?

See for yourself. (http://www.bushpilotbiking.com/log.htm)

[Late Bloomer]

Originally posted by Smoke
See for yourself. (http://www.bushpilotbiking.com/log.htm) Whoa...cool site! Looks like it was a riot. Thanks for the linkage, altough if I had half a brain, I'd realize your sig was an link to the site.;)

p.s. - nice lil' tweek on the avyhttp://www.cripplefight.com/smileys/bananaroc.gif

[Smoke]

My nipple was getting kinda soft.

[Joe Dick]

Originally posted by Smoke
See for yourself. (http://www.bushpilotbiking.com/log.htm)

oi hippystick what do ya have to say about that. (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v64/adbostock/bushdisco/billy.jpg)

[switch]

Originally posted by Smoke See for yourself. (http://www.bushpilotbiking.com/log.htm)
That picture with Schwartz in the mirror... :lol:


Some great shots Johnny. :)