I am woman, hear me roar

[Shocker]

thread lock is better than deleting? i was just getting to brentomatics post i'm curious as to how people think on the topic. I dont express any opinions of mine on here but I still like to read others, just because the threads contraversial, doens't mean you should delete it unless personal attacks start to come out, IMO at least.

[corey@nsmb.com]

Mature discussion is one thing.

There was nothing intellectual or mature about the last thread.

This one will get canned the second one of you steps out of line and forgets to use common sense.

[Shocker]

Originally posted by Shocker
thread lock is better than deleting? i was just getting to brentomatics post i'm curious as to how people think on the topic. I dont express any opinions of mine on here but I still like to read others, just because the threads contraversial, doens't mean you should delete it unless personal attacks start to come out, IMO at least.



"I dont express any opinions of mine on here"

"IMO"


I seem to be contradicting myself. Hmmm...



Originally posted by corey@nsmb.com
Mature discussion is one thing.

There was nothing intellectual or mature about the last thread.

This one will get canned the second one of you steps out of line and forgets to use common sense.


Completly fair, like I said, its an interesting matter to me and I like to hear how people view the matter.

[brentomatic]

Originally posted by Shocker
thread lock is better than deleting? i was just getting to brentomatics post i'm curious as to how people think on the topic. I dont express any opinions of mine on here but I still like to read others, just because the threads contraversial, doens't mean you should delete it unless personal attacks start to come out, IMO at least.

Prevention. The last post (in my experience here) was going to cause a fiasco. It that a reason to delete it? Maybe. My vote was to kill it.

Hasn't that topic been discussed enough? Perhaps it is time to move on. I am a die-hard NSMB Free Ride supporter and a Team Sponsor. I don't think this is the place to discuss personal issues surrounding the NSMB or the team.

My opinion. Flame away.

[Putty]

edit - fuck it, its probably not worth speaking my mind on this.

[brentomatic]

I'm done.

[Rosscofat]

blah blah? why brother?

[Nelson]

Michelle Interview1 By NSMB
MD: The rest of the women are all very respectful. They don’t necessarily believe it’s fair, still. If you ask Claire (Buchar), she’ll say, “I don’t believe it’s fair that Michelle races against us. At the same time, Michelle is a really nice person, and we get along fabulously.”

Im with Claire.
Michelle Interview1 By NSMB
MD: Even though, I only get reminded that I’m trans is when the media brings it up. For the most part, I don’t go walking around yelling, “I’m a trans person! I’m a trans person.” It’s not part of my life. Yeah, I had some surgery to correct a birth defect, but yeah, whatever, I’m female.

This is the one comment that gets me. Because she viewed herself differently than others, she calls the male penis a "defect". Does it offend me? Not really, but it comes off as somesort of elitist attitude. Im pretty sure most people, male or female, will agree that being born with a penis isnt a defect :???:

Just my Opinion.

[RyanH]

I don't see why they have to make such a big deal about it?

I am not trying to be rude but you can't say anything against it without looking like an ass.

[corey@nsmb.com]

Originally posted by Nelson
This is the one comment that gets me. Because she viewed herself differently than others, she calls the male penis a "defect". Does it offend me? Not really, but it comes off as somesort of elitist attitude. Im pretty sure most people, male or female, will agree that being born with a penis isnt a defect :???:

Just my Opinion.

OK, but in all fairness, you don't know, nor do I, the nature of what she is calling a defect.

People can assume it means "the male genitalia" but really, you don't know to what extent that may have been.

This is personal information of hers that I don't want to discuss beyond just that.

[RyanH]

Originally posted by Nelson
Im with Claire.


This is the one comment that gets me. Because she viewed herself differently than others, she calls the male penis a "defect". Does it offend me? Not really, but it comes off as somesort of elitist attitude. Im pretty sure most people, male or female, will agree that being born with a penis isnt a defect :???:

Just my Opinion.

Its a defect if you have female parts too.

[Nelson]

Originally posted by corey@nsmb.com
OK, but in all fairness, you don't know, nor do I, the nature of what she is calling a defect.

People can assume it means "the male genitalia" but really, you don't know to what extent that may have been.

This is personal information of hers that I don't want to discuss beyond just that.

Amen :)

[Putty]

but yeah, whatever, I’m female.


If her genotype is actually XX then I will never say anything about this again, and she should race against other women.

[Trini-dad72]

I put my foot in my mouth last time. I'm staying out of it this time.
I made my apologies, and now I am going to visit something else.

[scottvelez]

Originally posted by putty
If her genotype is actually XX then I will never say anything about this again, and she should race against other women.

And you deserve to be rich and successful?
Give me a break.

Life is never black and white. Especially when you get older.
It's a big world out there, you might as well relax a bit and enjoy it.

[hags]

i agree with putty.
i also think its ridiculous that people are getting so uptight and pc over others thinking she shouldnt race against chicks. the fact that i think she should race with the men doesnt make me politcally incorrect or close-minded

[Neo]

At one time long ago, I thought that there was something unfair about Michelle racing with the women. But now I disagree with that view completely, because I realize it is the wrong approach and a negative one.

There is absolutely no reason not to be positive about someone wanting to race and doing well at it, regardless of their gender/sex orientation/etc... CLEARLY, Michelle DID NOT undergo her lengthy, often painful, and very personal experience for the intention of racing with women. I have nothing but respect now for someone so brave as to make such an important lifestyle change for his/her own happiness and to be the person they know they really are. I don't know Michelle, but I suspect she is an amazing human being. She should be an inpiration for those who seek to change something in their lives in order to live it to its fullest, instead of sitting back and complaining about it...

[scottvelez]

Originally posted by Dante
At one time long ago, I thought that there was something unfair about Michelle racing with the women. But now I disagree with that view completely, because I realize it is the wrong approach and a negative one.


She should be an inpiration for those who seek to change something in their lives in order to live it to its fullest, instead of sitting back and complaining about it...

Very well said.

Please correct me if I am wrong, but you sound like someone who has finished high school, lived in the real world (not Daddy's basement) and worked for a living ;-)

[Putty]

Originally posted by scottv
And you deserve to be rich and successful?
Give me a break.

Life is never black and white. Especially when you get older.
It's a big world out there, you might as well relax a bit and enjoy it.

How do you know what I deserve? Did I say she did not deserve those things? No. Read my very short statement clearly, it should be below you comprehention length limit, and read it, not into it.

Do you know how old I am? I know how big the world is, thank you, and I do enjoy it. This has nothing to do with the fact that I think Michelle racing with women is unfair.


And its pretty black and white to me, XX woman, XY man. But then I only have 4 years of university biology, so what do I know.

Give yourself a break pal.

[Putty]

Originally posted by scottv
Very well said.

Please correct me if I am wrong, but you sound like someone who has finished high school, lived in the real world (not Daddy's basement) and worked for a living ;-)

Are you assuming that I didn't do those things because I don't agree with you...I've read some stupid things on here in my time, but you take the cake.

I happened to have done all those things as well, but I sure as hell don't agree with Dante.

Dante - if she did not do all those things to race with women, why does she not continue racing with men?

Please note that I am not commenting on Michelle as a person or judging her choices.

[corey@nsmb.com]

Putty,

Scott V is a good guy. Don't take it too seriously, it's just a little ribbing.

:)

It's Friday Putty, a good reason to smile.

[Putty]

Yeah, but he is personally attacking me for having an opinion.

Have I been disrespectful to Michelle in anything I have said?

I don't think so.

Why is OK for him to start slagging me because I am of a different opinion.

Scott has made some very valid posts on here, and has been cool in the past, this just pissed me off immensly.

Are we only not allowed to be disrespectful to minorities, but with white, hetero, males its open season?

I though this was supposed to be serious discussion.

And I bloody well do deserve to be famous...just check out my hair.

[corey@nsmb.com]

OK, Scott V gets 2 minutes and a misconduct for being mean, and Putty gets a 2 minutes for yelling.. :lol:

http://www.spineguys.com/newsletter/images/andy.jpg

[Putty]

but i am lower case baby.

*smashes keyboard on ice and goes in sin bin yelling back at corey*

I am finished with this now, just wanted to speak my mind. No hard feelings to anyone. I am glad we can still do that here.

[corey@nsmb.com]

Copy that... Lets Move out.

http://homepage.ntlworld.com/mjpowell/Nellis/Part1/fighter-planes-thumb.JPG

[Shocker]

:lol:

[Lady Gravity]

i admire michelle for the choices she has made in her life, they were obviously extremely difficult and the controversy will never go away

[Slamigo]

as far as I can tell, this is a women's issue. Infact, it's a women racers' issue. If they have a problem with it, it's their fight. They have many avenues available to them to air their grievances. If they don't have a problem with it, why should we care?

[Neo]

why does racing have to just be about who wins? anyways, I've said my view and I don't want to contribute to the dragging on of this issue. Michelle is a human being with flesh, blood, and perhaps more importantly, with real human feelings, emotions, desires, aspirations, and goals. I do not see how her past experiences that were both painful and yet enlightening to her, should dictate that she should not be allowed to pursue her dreams. It is ridiculous to assume that Michelle should race in the men's class simply because she is a woman. She was always a woman in her mind and I am a strong believer in Mind over Body. She overcame the physical obstacles that stood in the way of her being a complete human being and now she should be allowed to live her life as such. Again, whether you agree with her choices or not, one should respect her decision and admire her perserverance and positive attitude towards her life. I reiterate - she should be an inspiration, not an issue of constant moot debate. Michelle is an inspiration to me, in fact.

[Neo]

BTW, a mod should move this thread to the shore forum since it isn't a photo thread.

[DaveM]

Originally posted by Dante
why does racing have to just be about who wins?

Because the racers careers depend on the results.

I agree with the rest of your post word for word. Nicely said.

[Del]

Originally posted by Dante
why does racing have to just be about who wins?
Its the entire point of the whole concept? It is about who wins and only who wins, if you want something else ride with friends, dont compete internationally.:eek:

[Neo]

i disagree. there is clearly a certain amount of satisfaction that is gained from competing in an organized event in order to push yourself and develop riding skills that one cannot otherwise enjoy away from competitive races. if i was to race again, it would not be to win at all costs, but to enjoy the nature of competing and the fun of participating in the event.

[Jake the Trog]

Who cares man lets not judge her for her life decisions none of us know her, and she seems genuinly nice. Everyone is just bitter because "its not fair" give me a break if you want to beat her train harder. Life isnt always fair.

[DaveM]

Originally posted by Dante
i disagree. there is clearly a certain amount of satisfaction that is gained from competing in an organized event in order to push yourself and develop riding skills that one cannot otherwise enjoy away from competitive races. if i was to race again, it would not be to win at all costs, but to enjoy the nature of competing and the fun of participating in the event.

The difference being this is professional racing. It is their job, it's how they pay the bills. Makes a huge difference.

If you are a professional racer, and winning isn't everything, you're in the wrong business.

[Putty]

Originally posted by HuMbEr JaNGerEd
Who cares man lets not judge her for her life decisions none of us know her, and she seems genuinly nice. Everyone is just bitter because "its not fair" give me a break if you want to beat her train harder. Life isnt always fair.

i don't think anyone is judging her or her decisions. i have stated a couple of times that i am not.

if its so fair, why are men's times down a course always faster than the womens?

a woman could train as hard as she wants and still not have the strenght that a man can have with half the work.

[Jake the Trog]

but michelle isnt a man

[brentomatic]

For your reading pleasure.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/inside_game/mike_fish/news/2003/06/24/fish_dumaresq/

[Putty]

Originally posted by HuMbEr JaNGerEd
but michelle isnt a man

ok, so she is XX then?

[Jake the Trog]

Yet there’s still debate over whether the former Michael Dumaresq enjoys an advantage of perhaps larger bones, more testosterone, larger lung capacity and greater muscle mass than the average female racer. Dumaresq counters -- and some medical people back her up -- that eight years of hormone therapy have offset any previous edge, cutting away considerably at muscle mass and testosterone levels.

[Putty]

5 9 and 180 is still a pretty large woman IMO. why will no one answer my question of whether she is XX or XY, would that not solve some of the concerns?

[Jake the Trog]

yeah shes big...

but it would be interesting to know if her genes are xx or xy....

[Putty]

thank you.

[hags]

Originally posted by putty
ok, so she is XX then?

and the fact that she developed physically for however many years as a man, regardless if she is taking hormones now and has had her 'defect' removed

[RyanH]

Ya I think if she has male genes then she should be race against men. Regardless if she says that she didn't get the operation to race against women, I believe her. But still... its an advantage.

[Putty]

I agreen, nowhere did I clain that she got the operation to race against women either.

[Neo]

I realize nobody claimed that she had the operation in order to race against women, but that is how this argument is shaping up for the most part.

Anyways, Michelle should be allowed to race since she is a human being entitled to participate in sporting events as such. Since she is a woman, then she should be racing in the women's division. If you think she isn't a woman, then that is an issue outside of the racing one.

[Jake the Trog]

Originally posted by Dante
Anyways, Michelle should be allowed to race since she is a human being entitled to participate in sporting events as such. Since she is a woman, then she should be racing in the women's division. If you think she isn't a woman, then that is an issue outside of the racing one.

my thoughts exactly

[RyanH]

Originally posted by Dante
Since she is a woman, then she should be racing in the women's division. If you think she isn't a woman, then that is an issue outside of the racing one.


She should race with the Men if she has male genes... If she is allowed to race with women, the next US womens olympic team is going to be little different...

[comfortablynumb]

I don't get why the hell my thread on XT hydsros got delelted. Is it cause Corey got proven wrong?

[sleeper72]

Originally posted by RyanH
She should race with the Men if she has male genes... If she is allowed to race with women, the next US womens olympic team is going to be little different...

Guess what. Gender verification is no longer done for the Olympics. To compete as a male or female in the olympics "their new gender has been legally recognized and they have gone through a minimum two-year period of postoperative hormone therapy." http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/4999094/

It's not simply an issue of XX or XY. There's lots of other combinations around, like single X, single Y, XXY, XX males etc etc. Should people who are born with these just not be allowed to compete in any athletics?

Here's another interesting article on the topic:
http://ai.eecs.umich.edu/people/conway/TS/OlympicGenderTesting.html

[Nelson]

Originally posted by HuMbEr JaNGerEd
but it would be interesting to know if her genes are xx or xy....

Chromosones! They would be XY since she was born a male, but she cant produce testosterone anymore since well, yeah, the factory got torn down. She now probably takes estrogen pills in her daily diet. The only physical advantage she has are the muscles and the weight she didnt lose due to atrophy...I assume.

[Aceman]

This is quite a heated discussion:???: from what i have read there is a woman/man that is racing as a woman in the downhill circuit but was once a man and got her genitalia changed and has been taking hormones and such. My opinion is that even tho she is taking all of these hormones, you can't completely change into a girl from a guy. You are still gonna have the frame of a guy and a few left overs which gives her/him and unfair advantage over the rest of the girls racing. When you are racing for a living, winning is everything. When you're not winning your not making the good money which means bills aren't payed. If this girl is winning all the time than the other girls have no chance against the oversized girl. I don't agree with the idea of transexuals in sports when its guy to girl. Girl to guy doesn't bother me as much tho.

[scottvelez]

Originally posted by putty
And its pretty black and white to me, XX woman, XY man. But then I only have 4 years of university biology, so what do I know.

Give yourself a break pal.

LOL

It's not about XX or XY. It's about her legal status. If she is considered to be a woman by the people who make the sporting rules for that race series, then she's a woman as far as those races go - period! That seems pretty straight forward to me. If you, or I, want the same “advantage”, we know what to do! ;-)

I’m sorry if you felt my comments were attacking you. That was not my intention. I apologize. It was not so much what you said, but the tone of it. Perhaps I took it the wrong way.

I'll give myself a break now.

[scottvelez]

Originally posted by Aceman
I don't agree with the idea of transexuals in sports when its guy to girl. Girl to guy doesn't bother me as much tho.
But it should bother you the same amount, no?
Either it's ok, or it's not.

[Neo]

Originally posted by scottv
But it should bother you the same amount, no?
Either it's ok, or it's not.

w3rd. i don't get the double standard.

this doesn't include you putty, but I have to say, there are some pretty narrow minded and uneducated opinions here...

if Michelle wasn't winning, there would be no debate. but since she is, it seems her previous life must come into the picture. Personally, I think she deserves a lot of props for perserverance. Whether she is winning or not is not important to me. What is important is that she is happy with herself now, she is doing what she loves, and she is following her dreams regardless of what others might think or how they may judge her...

[DaveM]

I understand why her competitors feel that she competes unfairly. They feel that Michelle is not "the same" as them. Whether or not her basic structure gives her an advantage, I don't really know, and did 4 years of university biology get into human gender reassignment? I don't know that either.

If she is considered to be a woman by the people who make the sporting rules for that race series, then she's a woman as far as those races go - period! That seems pretty straight forward to me.

I'm quite sure the doctors that were consulted to define the rules would have a better grasp on the reality of it all better than anyone on this board. This isn't just for DH bicycle racing. It's Olympic rules as well.

[j tizzle]

well here my opinion on the matter...im not a chick so i dont have to race against michelle so i dont care...ya i put alot of thought into that one can you tell ?

[aShogunNamedMarcus]

Originally posted by scottv
LOL

It's not about XX or XY. It's about her legal status. If she is considered to be a woman by the people who make the sporting rules for that race series, then she's a woman as far as those races go - period! That seems pretty straight forward to me. If you, or I, want the same “advantage”, we know what to do! ;-)

If I'm not mistaken Scott, you race. You've probably considered already what would happen if all of a sudden there was Ben Johnson in the BC DH male ranks. I realize your point is basically just stating "its not for us to decide, its the legal entitity that should". But this is whole ordeal is from the views of people who feel wronged by the fact that that entitty should look further into it as I for one would be mad. I'm an emotional person and competetive enough when it comes down it and this would get me going so much that if I raced at a higher level I would consider not racing as I'd feel the winner would've won already. And dont label that as a defeatist attitude. It amounts to cherry picking or sand bagging on the basic level.

Simplest solution is to create a new catergory in all fairness.

Hopefully this makes some sense as I'm tired and its sort of late.

[Shocker]

Originally posted by j tizzle
well here my opinion on the matter...im not a chick so i dont have to race against michelle so i dont care...ya i put alot of thought into that one can you tell ?


:lol:

[the flying moose]

the part that bothers me is that she was able to change her birth certificate and license to claim she is a woman. she was clearly born male but because she underwent this lifestyle change does not change who and what she was when she was born. and as long as she has that birth certificate saying she is a woman then there is nothing that they can do whether you like it or not.

[0_o]

Michelle is hella fast.
Respect.

[counterpoint]

Originally posted by Dante
w3rd. i don't get the double standard.

this doesn't include you putty, but I have to say, there are some pretty narrow minded and uneducated opinions here...

if Michelle wasn't winning, there would be no debate. but since she is, it seems her previous life must come into the picture. Personally, I think she deserves a lot of props for perserverance. Whether she is winning or not is not important to me. What is important is that she is happy with herself now, she is doing what she loves, and she is following her dreams regardless of what others might think or how they may judge her...

That is all fine and dandy but you said earlier that racing should not be just about winning. That is why you are not a racer. Some people (everyone involved seriously in any competitive sport) are born competitive and have that need and desire to win. Others (like you - no offence) feel that it should be about perserverence, self worth and doing personally better. Unfortunately, that doesn't pay the bills or progress the technicality of the sport any.

Your argument is like a vegan complaining that McDonalds should change it's menu to a vegan only diet. Valid points but since you are not really one of McDonald's paying customers, it doesn't mean much to them.

[Neo]

Originally posted by 0_o
Michelle is hella fast.
Respect.

[RyanH]

What are her times compared to the other women?

[NooNer]

lets make clones and have them race, then no one can have any sort of advantage. and hey if not clones ... why not robots?

[scottvelez]

Originally posted by RyanH
What are her times compared to the other women?

What do her times have to do with it?
If the rules state she can race in that class, then she can race in that class. If you don't like the rules, talk to the race organization. Don't blame the athlete.

[RyanH]

Originally posted by scottv
What do her times have to do with it?
If the rules state she can race in that class, then she can race in that class. If you don't like the rules, talk to the race organization. Don't blame the athlete.


Well mens race times are usually better then womens... If she is winning races by a substantial amount of time, then she should volunteer to go into the mens class. Or else what kind of athlete is she? Don't athletes love a challenge?

Again I am not saying she had the surgery to race in the womens class! I believe what she said, but I also think she should atleast volunteer to race men, if she is winning with times competitive to mens race times.

[scottvelez]

Originally posted by RyanH
Well mens race times are usually better then womens... If she is winning races by a substantial amount of time, then she should volunteer to go into the mens class.

I beat some of the guys in my class substantially. Do you want me to volunteer and move into Elite? You've got to be joking!!

There is no way I would do that... and I wouldn't ask anyone else to do it either, man or woman.

[RyanH]

Well if your so good maybe you should :P

[RyanH]

Originally posted by RyanH
Again I am not saying she had the surgery to race in the womens class! I believe what she said, but I also think she should atleast volunteer to race men, if she is winning with times competitive to mens race times.

If she is racing times that are very competitive to times men are racing then she should be in the mens class...

[derwood]

Smells like a dead horse in here..........:rolleyes:

[scottvelez]

Originally posted by RyanH
If she is racing times that are very competitive to times men are racing then she should be in the mens class...

So basically, you're suggesting that Anne-Caroline Chausson race the men's class too?

[RyanH]

If she was born a man... yes.

[DaveM]

Originally posted by derwood
Smells like a dead horse in here..........:rolleyes:


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v57/inkpay55/smilies/beatadeadhorse.gif