Need the Boards opinion....

[bcbud]

I have a dillema...after going on the free tours last year of Garbonzo and subsequently had my photo takin by a local, well known photographer, he Emailed me some shots so I may purchase them (which hasn't happened yet ) They were sweet shots. Then this April, I see the shot used in the ads for Garbonzo on nsmb.com, then in BIKE, then Decline and Twenty Six. I thought cool I am published finally, but my name was not on the ad. No biggy, I was playing modest, told my friends and co workers and fellow riders, I didn't think much of it. So I didn't do anything. Then yesterday I snagged the new trail map.....I am on the freaking cover!!!!!
Back to the dillema, should I go to the WB and ask for compensation or not? I am pretty much being used without my permission and I dont like that. What should I do gents?

[Moocowsia]

Lets see the pic. I wouldn't be mad unless it made me look like a dumbass, just take it as a compliment.

[Coop]

I'm not sure how this works, or what arrangement you had with the photographer beforehand, but if you didnt purchase them then he had a right to shop them around, which it seems he did.

At best by this point you could maybe get WB to put a little line in any newer publications they print out, but I dont think they are beholden to the wishes of anyone in the actual picture, just the photographer who they bought the rights from.

Perhaps your beef is with the photog, who I'm pretty sure could tell you to fly a donut if you didnt purchase them when you had the chance.

I'd just be stoked. And learn from it.

[markathome]

Basically this is how it works:
Photog takes your pic and sends it to a magazine - they publish it for EDITORIAL use only. Congrats go to the Photog and your fine self for making the cut. If you were on public property, the photographer can do whatever he/she wants with the pic including pocketing all the proceeds - when the photo is used for editorial use.

Now let's open the advertising ball of wax - The sports advertising industry standard is: a company won't run an image unless a signed, dated model release accompanies the photo. This basically says that you the subject are ok with your image being used to whore Snickers bars, Miller Lite or condoms - you forfeit all rights to you image (unless stated in the release form).

No model release form = no permission to use in Advertorial material.

You can interpret that however you want - this is how I do:
you're being taken advantage of.

Most pro photographers ensure a clear understanding of what images will be used for what and properly document it.

My 2 cents.

[counterpoint]

free tour up garbonzo, knowing a photog was with you? Not much of chance for you to do much. Maybe get a t-shirt like Cho did! That irish pub in Whistler wouldn't even give ryan hayes a beer when he found out he was all over their advertising. We live in a tightly confined place of ripping riders and good photographers and companies that want a piece of the action. The photographer was paid for that photo in some way, he should definately buy you some beers and give you recognition. Make sure next time he finds a secret spot that you are first number he calls.

[white ri0t]

Get Lee Lau to sue them!

[Zedbra]

Send in your mug shots - ask them to publish them side by side.

[0_o]

Use their shots to buff your resume.
It can work both ways.

[bcbud]

Of course I am using it to pad the resume, I printed off one of the photos Sterling remailed me. I just want something from the mighty WB....

[bcbud]

Here is the shot....

[Zedbra]

Well, just let it be known ya got style.

[Neo]

holy shit that pic is sweet. nice table :eek: :thepimp:

[trout]

Originally posted by Zedbra
Well, just let it be known ya got style.

Agreed, personally, I don't think you would be out of line to ask for a season's pass.

[bcbud]

That's just one of them. the other is a cloer pic and the other one is on the Trail map, I can tell cause my shirt is different in every shot and I am flatter in one. Kodak courage....a super fun hit that is on the new trails...

[Uncle Duke]

Originally posted by trout
Agreed, personally, I don't think you would be out of line to ask for a season's pass.

that seems reasonable for sure.
wicked air.

[couch@nsmb.com]

I can tell you right now that WB will not give you anything. They purchased the photo to use from said photographer. The buck stops with him.

One other thing - there are no facial features so there is no way to identify it as you - honestly it could be anyone.

[inshane]

u have good stuff for your resume now :)
still kinda weird that they used your pic without asking and not even saying who the rider was....

[Toshi]

Originally posted by couch@nsmb.com
I can tell you right now that WB will not give you anything. They purchased the photo to use from said photographer. The buck stops with him.
but the photographer DOES owe him, since he should have had a model release on file before selling the shot.

[bcbud]

So I should contact Sterling Lorence then, he got paid for HIS film, I didn't say he couldn't sell it, the WB is the one USING the shot, I'd say he can do whatever he wants with the shot, he doesn't know if they will use it, I didn't sign nothin or permission to use me, I am heading in there tomorrow....

[couch@nsmb.com]

Originally posted by Toshi
but the photographer DOES owe him, since he should have had a model release on file before selling the shot.

legally "no". Since you cannot tell who it is, there is no compensation required. From the photographers point of view they may or may not compensate you as a courtesy As an unknown rider point of view I would be happy if the photographer got me some copies of the photo and leave it at that.

[0_o]

Originally posted by bcbud
Of course I am using it to pad the resume, I printed off one of the photos Sterling remailed me. I just want something from the mighty WB....

I was talking about the ads.
If it ever goes to court you can explain your case.
Then you'll really see what WB/SL is willing to give.

[derwood]

"Technically" I think W/B could claim ownership to the image as it shows features of their property which are enhanced to gain revenue.The shooter has to get permission to shoot at W/B if he intends to sell the images.

[bcbud]

A client of Sterling is the WB, so he had permission to shoot and sell the shot...fuck it I'm just gonna go in there and ask someone.

[Late Bloomer]

Interesting dilemma...don't know what to tell you on that.

I can tell you for sure that is one sick pic!!:thepimp:

[hooli]

good luck...i can't even get a free lift ticket from a friend...hes the head lift mechanic...thats how cheap wb is..they will refer you to sterling who will have to provide proof that it is you then you will have to go back to wb to ask for compensation which will probably take till the end of the season....like i said...good luck

[couch@nsmb.com]

Just a FYI. Nobody Sterling shoots gets paid that includes every big name rider you know. The shots give you publicity that in turn helps get you sponsors. Sterl is the nicest most professional person in the industry, he will not screw you over. He helps riders with their resumes by giving them exposure, he is after all the senior photographer for BIKE magazine.

[Uncle Duke]

Originally posted by couch@nsmb.com
Just a FYI. Nobody Sterling shoots gets paid that includes every big name rider you know. The shots give you publicity that in turn helps get you sponsors. Sterl is the nicest most professional person in the industry, he will not screw you over. He helps riders with their resumes by giving them exposure, he is after all the senior photographer for BIKE magazine.

he does have a good rep.

[bcbud]

Ahh the riders may not get paid by Sterling himself but most pros get incentives for getting shots published from their sponsers. If I had been a paid rider I'd be loaded right now, 3 bicycle mags and a trail map, money money money, basically I feel used and I am gonna talk to Tom Pro about it and see what he says, I ride there everyday, promote the place wherever I go, so who knows....

[pete@nsmb.com]

Originally posted by bcbud
Ahh the riders may not get paid by Sterling himself but most pros get incentives for getting shots published from their sponsers. If I had been a paid rider I'd be loaded right now, 3 bicycle mags and a trail map, money money money, basically I feel used and I am gonna talk to Tom Pro about it and see what he says, I ride there everyday, promote the place wherever I go, so who knows....

While it's true you would have earned appearance incentive money from sponsors had you had those deals arranged, three bike mag ads and a trail map still wouldn't be making you rich, so don't get too bummed about that. As for Whistler - they obtained the rights to use the photo from the photographer - the trail map and ads are made, the deal is done. Re-opening that can of worms will not endear you to them, nor make them feel obliged to compensate you.

Take advantage of the publicity you have received, and talk to Sterl about heading out again sometime on a shoot - if you act with professionalism he's likely to want to work with you again, given that his shots of you sold well the first time. In the meantime, pull that resume together, and get your ass to the AIRprentice on June 26th.

[bighitter]

Originally posted by Pete@nsmb.com
In the meantime, pull that resume together, and get your ass to the AIRprentice on June 26th.
just remember not to take a photo of him(j/k)

[Zaskar]

Tyler "Super T" Klassen

Sex: Male
Height: 6'3"
Weight: 180 lbs.
Age: 22
Hair colour: Brown
Eye colour: Green
Sponsorship:
* Fox Racing
* Race Face Performance Components
* Santa Cruz Bikes
* NRG Enterprises
* Marzocchi
* Life Cycles Bike Shop
* Adidas Sport Eyeware

Film & Television:
* North Shore Extreme 2
* Kranked 4
* Feature Segment in North Shore Extreme 5
* Feature Segment in Union
* Feature Segment in Jib
* Feature Segment in North Shore Extreme 6
* Feature Segment in Kranked 5
* Featured rider in 13 episodes of the Drop-In TV show - more than 200 minutes of TV coverage in front of an audience of 500,000 people per week

Highlights:
* Nike Commercial - Filmed with Lance Armstrong riding for a Nike commercial broadcast throughout North America.
* Flowshow Team Member - A featured rider for 2 years in Dangerous Dan’s Flow Show. Appeared in over 40 shows across North America and Europe. Tour Shows included the Sea otter Classic (Monterey CA), the Tissot World Cup (Vancouver Canada), 24 hours of Adrenaline (West Virginia), Mountain Bike trade show (Koln, Germany), and has been seen by over 50,000 fans.
* Race Face Ultimate Freeride Contest Winner - An online video submission contest. Online viewers around the world through an elimination process voted the winner.
* Red Bull Rampage 2002 Freeride Champion - An invitation only, judged contest located in Virgin Utah
* Red Bull Ride 2003 - Invitation only, freeride contest in Jindabyne Australia Placed 11th out of 30



i would say the numbers are a little different for the big names. but i think someone owes you something...but i wouldnt be holding out for any big cheques or anything. i'd say they did you a favour personally...you did a free tour og garbonzo...and they picked your photograph to use. free exposure for you.

but who knows. im just speculating. go for the bling if ya can though man...i mean...no use given up on cash if you know you're entitled to some. its like saying no to free money. but don't go gun hoe about being an asshole bout it...they DID do you a huggge favour.

[Dan]

hmmm nah sorry dude. in the real world u aint gettin jack :) I kno i would maybe want a bit of comp for it, but its rele not gonna happen.

nice jump tho! looks sweet.

[Uncle Duke]

I would call up the photographer and get some more picts done, he would probably be stoked to do that , def. be nice , you will probaly get what you feel you deserve if you stick w it.Maybe you got a little used on this one, but if you can use it to your advantage to get your toe in the door.. who knows? good luck, lets see some more picts when they are ready.

[Mr Ripper]

I have seen that shot all over the place. I would be stoked to have that kind of FREE publicity. Pete is right, this is your chance to do something in the industry, get that resume done and get it out there. This could be your chance, or maybe your 15 seconds just ran up! :P

[0_o]

How does one get exposure if he cannot be recognized?

Originally posted by bcbud
I thought cool I am published finally, but my name was not on the ad.

[Mr Ripper]

Originally posted by 0_o
How does one get exposure if he cannot be recognized?

seriously, can you identify a pro rider all suited up busting some air from behind....

[couch@nsmb.com]

He puts it in his resume and submits it to the companies that are potential sponsors. If the company is very interested in that rider they can contact Sterl.

The problem with the photo is that it is not a rider driven shot (think Berreclth 360ing off a cliff) The rider is set off by the scenery, great shot for a resume, but not one that defines the rider.

[Mr Ripper]

Originally posted by couch@nsmb.com
He puts it in his resume and submits it to the companies that are potential sponsors. If the company is very interested in that rider they can contact Sterl.

The problem with the photo is that it is not a rider driven shot (think Berreclth 360ing off a cliff) The rider is set off by the scenery, great shot for a resume, but not one that defines the rider.


Couldn't have said it better, definatly a great way to get the foot in the door though

[Smoke]

I had almost the EXACT same situation about 15 years ago. I screwing around learning to tele ski in some hideous neon jacket (it was around 1990,right?) and a photographer guy asked me to pin some turns for him in this powder patch under a bluebird sky. I nver signed a model release, never really knew what one was, and never thought of it again.

Until those pics showed up on the trail map, the official brochure, the accomodation brochure, a bunch of stock market related materials, and some billboards.

So I went to the marketing dept. and said, 'Hey, that's me on all your advertising."

They said, "Really?"

...and then they gave me a seasons pass. On the spot. And did so for three more years while they continued to use the pic.

Go talk to the marketing guys. You never know. At the very least they will probably give you a rider credit somewhere.

[Mr Ripper]

Hey Smoke, I know you are still rockin the same jacket, be honest :thepimp:

[Uncle Duke]

Originally posted by Mr Ripper
Hey Smoke, I know you are still rockin the same jacket, be honest :thepimp:

true.;)

[SIDESHOW]

its just like the Couch said, you are unrecognizable so there is no model release required. It would've been smart for Sterl to get one anyway, that way you wouldn't be able to try and negotiate after the fact.

sorry BCbud, but if you don't make arrangements prior to working then you don't get paid. No different than real work, you don't do a favour for someone then come back with your hand out.

I would however go talk to Tom Prochaska, and compile all the stuff. State your case in a respecful manner and maybe he'll offer you something. I have found the WBP folks to be very cool and reasonable. Do not go at it like they owe you, because they don't.

or like some others said, you could just be happy, with the fact that you got a free preview of the Garbonzo last year, and the opportunity to shoot with a photog that normally wouldn't know who you are from Adam????

you now have something to start building your resume.......seems like they did give you something.

[Smoke]

Originally posted by Mr Ripper
Hey Smoke, I know you are still rockin the same jacket, be honest :thepimp:

I wish I still had it, but it's long gone. I got it on some sale rack in Banff for 30 bucks because I was broke and needed another layer.

Bright pink.

With a matching headband.

[Uncle Duke]

a seasons pass seems karmatically in order.

[tashi]

I get how you might feel used buuuut....

I think that trying to get something out of this can only hurt you. If you approach SL as others have suggested and ask to do more pics than you may be on to something. Trying to get something out of him will only label you a troublemaker. I'd ignore you at that point ifI were him.

Definately annoy WB though. They're greedy bastards, they are; but as Smoke indicated, they might give you something to go away.

[Smoke]

Originally posted by tashi
Definately annoy WB though. They're greedy bastards, they are; but as Smoke indicated, they might give you something to go away.

You're an idiot.

They gave me a pass (not Whistler BTW, another ski hill) without even being asked. They simply offered it up. I wasn't being a dick about it. I was going to ask if I could get a couple of day passes or something but they kicked down right then and there.

They all have budgets for that sort of thing. If there's room and they lilke you, of course they will break you off a little piece. If they are out of dough, ask them for a photo credit on the website or something.

Like Sideshow said, it could be the start of a nice resume.

...or you could just annoy them and burn a bridge that hasn't even been built yet.

[Rosscofat]

id just be happy and say thats me guys in that pictures.. thats enought to make me happy.. get props from your family and friends.. U dont need money to make you happy..

[bcbud]

Well I've been thinking long and hard about this whole thing. I didn't go in today cause I was sleeping in (don't know if ya'll read the GLC post my wrist still hurts so no riding) and now at work. I am gonna use it for a resume which I hope to bring down this Saturday, pending the wrist situation. I already have my pass, I have my bike pimped out at the moment, its a long season, maybe SL will come up here again, there are lots of races still to be raced this year, the WB given me a nice gift of putting me out there, I have other copies of the shot, things will be good. I'm just gonna see what fate brings. Nine years of riding could pay off I guess. Thanks for the advice.

[Zu]

wtf that was on a huge poster :|

[marksnet]

i saw that shot on the huge billbaord you see when you lookback from the chair.

[bcbud]

that wasn't me but it was the same booter before it was built up, Blake Jorgenson took that shot and buddy in the shot was Chad Hendren, a co worker of mine. PLus that posters been down since last year.

[Nikki]

The internet is a funny thing. I just came across a picture of me and a friend used on the front of the North Shore Mountain Bike Festival/Confrence program that was passed on to me. http://www.nsmbfc.com/downloads/2004conferencerprogram.pdf
At least your picture is cool, im just standing with a helmet on. I think I should go to the festival and stand beside a sign with my picture on it and wait for someone to notice.

[LeeLau]

That is a very nice picture of some happy riders nikki.

[scottvelez]

Ok, there are some really good knowledgeable posts in this thread, some really stupid, ignorant ones... so I'm going to add my 2 cents to this whole thing. Hopefully, I don't come across as totally naive and ignorant myself ;-)

To summarize, bcbud is owed nothing. Zilch. Zip. And complaining about it won't get you much modeling work in the future. If given a choice, film makers and photographers would rather work with people who don't whine and complain all the time. If you want to work in the industry, learn how it works. Spend a few minutes surfing the web and learn some of the basic business fundamentals of photography. You might even learn how little $$$, photographers actually make.


Now, to clarify a few things.
In most cases, the photographer will sell you a print of the picture, but they won't sell you "all rights". If they did, they would never be able to use it for anything else. If you think about it, you'll quickly realize photographers can't live on the $20 you pay them for one print! They make a living by licensing a lot of pictures to a lot of different customers. And that includes licensing the SAME picture to multiple customers. The general guideline in stock photography is $1 per year, per shot. So if you want to gross $20,0000 a year in sales, you would have to have 20,000 shots on file at the agency. And don't kid yourself. These are not 'snapshot' quality images. I am talking about the best of the best of the best shots. If you're lucky, you might get one of these shots out of 20 rolls of film. And that's if you're good.

In advertising things are different, but simply put, you need a model release IF the person is recognizable. If it's just a shot of a 'person' and you can't tell that person from joe blow, then no modeling release is necessary.

I just took a look at the picture and it's a good shot and I'm sure you are a good rider, but to be brutally honest, it could be anyone from anywhere, shot almost anywhere in the world. It's a beautiful, generic shot with no identifiable features of the model. A PERFECT shot for stock photography, 'cause it can be used, licensed and sold for many, many things.

I apologize if my tone is a brief, but I'm always shocked how many people think photographers owe them something when their picture is taken. 99.99% of the time, they don't owe you squat. If they do owe you, it will be discussed, written and signed on paper before the shoot even starts.

There are many, many books on this subject. Check your local library.

[Smoke]

I don't think you understand how hard it is to be really, really really really, goodlooking.

You should release all the models. No models should be held against their will.

http://orbita.starmedia.com/tv_cinema/zoolander.jpg

[Peatrick]

^^^

"Were you listening to the Dude's story? So you have no frame of reference. You're like a child who wanders in in the middle of a movie and wants to know-"

Smoke, that's the funniest thing I've seen all day.

[corey@nsmb.com]

Mugatu is SOOO HOT this year.....