switchback crime?

[Shakes]

a trail has exsisted since bottle cages, v-breaks and bar ends graced the steed.

now someone (without permission) decides the corner is too sharp and it would be more fun to cut the switchback and b-line it straight down.

is cutting switchbacks a crime punishible by bad karma leading to death?

or is it simplly the evolution of the trail?

[Banshee Beast]

I'd say " punishable by bad karma" IMO cutting switchbacks is BAD:mad: So don't do it!!

[sanrensho]

Originally posted by Shakes
is cutting switchbacks a crime punishible by bad karma leading to death?


Yes. Cutting new lines in an existing trail without some combination of consulting with your local trail maintenance organization, land owner, and current/past trail builder is bad form.

[Uncle Duke]

Originally posted by sanrensho
Yes. Cutting new lines in an existing trail without some combination of consulting with your local trail maintenance organization, land owner, and current/past trail builder is bad form.

I dunno about death, certainly some form of crotch rot though.

[pete]

perhaps the creation of a pungee pit would be inorder?

[Zedbra]

probably barry on his new 9" sofa

[Shakes]

Originally posted by pete
perhaps the creation of a pungee pit would be inorder?

ha- that's the only way i've found to stop them. set up lots of pointy sticks. then get moved but it stops them for a while.

ps. barry dosn't cut them he gaps them :D

[ES-OH-ES]

Trails are built with switchbacks for a reason, trails that follow the fall line get slapped out fast (old 19th in squam for instance) If you want your trails to last, don't cut down the fall line.
Barry doesn't gap them, he walks down them in his stylish hiking boots.

[Ed Anger]

Which trail? It could be the fault of MX'ers - I've noticed that there's a fair amount of motorized traffic on some of the local trails, and that the moto-folks don't like to climb steep switchbacks, so they cut 'em.

[couch@nsmb.com]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by duke
I dunno about death, certainly some form of crotch rot though. [/QUOTE

worse than death

[mudpuppy]

SIMBS was having that issue on alot of the tails at hartland. They found getting a bunch of deadfall and branches, and wire them together....kinda making a makeshift fence and putting it in the area that is getting cut through. It worked for them, I agree people who cut switchbacks need to be kicked in the nuts.

[Curtis]

Originally posted by Banshee Beast
I'd say " punishable by bad karma" IMO cutting switchbacks is BAD:mad: So don't do it!!

Agreed, cutting a switch back shows complete lack of respect for the trail, the people who build and maintain them and above all, disrespect to the entire MTB commmunity.

[Shakes]

Originally posted by Ed Anger
Which trail? It could be the fault of MX'ers - I've noticed that there's a fair amount of motorized traffic on some of the local trails, and that the moto-folks don't like to climb steep switchbacks, so they cut 'em.

the trails i'm thinking of were definately cut by freeriders.
the trials MX'ers here are a solid bunch. actualy they build most of the trails in the hood hence my defence.

[SIDESHOW]

but how else can I shave those valuable seconds..............I really need to get to the bottom.

[white ri0t]

Shave your legs, Cory. that makes anyone faster.

[SIDESHOW]

they are already so skinny I fear if I shave there will nothing under there..

[barry]

Cutting switchbacks is for fools. I doubt our MX brothas would have dissed the trails that way either.

PS: dont be steppin
http://www.pinkbike.com/m/disk01/pinkbike/photo/pbpic213338.jpg

[Smoke]

It's not as cut and dried as all that.

Lots of the old lines were made for bikes with canti-brakes, toe clips, and even before bar ends. The new bikes don't really fit into the same groove that those bikes cut, leading to skidding into the turns and more erosion.

Sometimes a new line is justified. I've seen a lot of 'new' lines built on old trails by well meaning volunteers that just don't make sense (near the end of Boogeyman for example), and I've seen lines get closed down that had way better flow than the original trail (think about that little log booter on Pangor that cut off the corner. I thought it was fun and well placed...).

Shades of grey...

[LeeLau]

Its rarely justified though John. If you're halfway skilled then you can ride a new bike down pretty tight switchbacks - doing nose picks or tail whipping the back end around. The excuse that my bikes got too long a wheelbase or the switchback is too tight for my bike smacks like carpentar blaming tools.

Having said that, I'd agree its not black and white.

Originally posted by Smoke
It's not as cut and dried as all that.

Lots of the old lines were made for bikes with canti-brakes, toe clips, and even before bar ends. The new bikes don't really fit into the same groove that those bikes cut, leading to skidding into the turns and more erosion.

Sometimes a new line is justified. I've seen a lot of 'new' lines built on old trails by well meaning volunteers that just don't make sense (near the end of Boogeyman for example), and I've seen lines get closed down that had way better flow than the original trail (think about that little log booter on Pangor that cut off the corner. I thought it was fun and well placed...).

Shades of grey...

[barry]

Originally posted by Smoke
Sometimes a new line is justified. I've seen a lot of 'new' lines built on old
keep in mind hes not talking about building new lines, more just plowing through the veggies...

[atari_]

people cut switchbacks for one reason. they don't have the skill to hit the corner at speed, They think that by ripping stright down, it means they're a better rider.

strange hey?

[Smoke]

Again, I say not always. On the Firehose, I'd have to say that the switchbacks are ridiculously tight but that is the line that should be stuck to. There is no aesthetically superior line that chops the corners off.

But there are a few lines I can think of where dropping the corner IS a better line. In those cases, the cutoff line is steeper, tougher, and has a mandatory pop at the bottom to keep from lawn darting.

These are just examples.

I find with the higher speeds that the modern equipment seems to perform at that new lines are constantly occuring to me. I will never stick to the same old rut. Part of the way I express myself when I ride is through 'creative line interpretation.'' Where do you draw the line? It's going to be different for different people.

The only constant in this world is change.

To think that a trail cut in the early '80's is going to be relevant to 21st century riding in exactly the same way is to ignore that maxim. The trick is to manage that change in a way that doesn't infringe on anyone else's enjoyment.

To get back to the original argument for a sec:

I think the line should change and evolve, but it has to be a worthy line. If the switchback can be cut in a way that improves the flow and keeps the rider off the brakes, why the hell not? If it's just another selfish "check me out" kind of manuever that does nothing more than let you cut off your buddy, maybe not.

[piledriver]

People have missed the point:

If you don't think the existing line is suitable, then at least contact the people regularly working in the area, and explain it to them. Maybe they will fix it for you the way you suggest.
Or...if everyone is cool with it and there aren't already plans for something else.......fix it PROPERLY. Don't just start making new incomplete and unsustainable lines, and which usually rsults in multiple lines that then each need fixing.hence unecessary work.

Respect..........respect......it's really quite easy. PD

[Sharon]

maybe we need to go back to smaller bikes that are better at technical trails rather then big bikes that just want to go down fast regardless of the esthetic of the trail.

[corey@nsmb.com]

Originally posted by Sharon
maybe we need to go back to smaller bikes that are better at technical trails rather then big bikes that just want to go down fast regardless of the esthetic of the trail.

Sharon, the anti-big bike spokesperson of the world! :lol:

I rode my big bike 7 days straight in Moab. Put a granny ring on an 8 and 8 bike and it becomes a whole new beast. :thepimp:


It comes down to riders using their heads. An inconsiderate rider will be inconsiderate regardless of the bike he/she is on. ;)

[LeeLau]

Originally posted by corey@nsmb.com
Sharon, the anti-big bike spokesperson of the world! :lol:

I rode my big bike 7 days straight in Moab. Put a granny ring on an 8 and 8 bike and it becomes a whole new beast. :thepimp:


It comes down to riders using their heads. An inconsiderate rider will be inconsiderate regardless of the bike he/she is on. ;)

LOL you knew it was coming. Now how can you tell me that pig wasn't total overkill for porc rim or slickrock?

[corey@nsmb.com]

Originally posted by LeeLau
LOL you knew it was coming. Now how can you tell me that pig wasn't total overkill for porc rim or slickrock?

Overkill is a strong word Lee! :lol:

Ideally, I think a 6 and 6 bike would be perfect for the riding there.

But we were on vacation, not racing, so being a little slower on the climbs wasn't a big deal. I DID like 8 and 8 on the way down Porcupine Rim, I don't see how anyone couldn't, cause you can just fly!

Definately far from required, but fun to have and no need to justify having it.

Have you ever done the "UPS" single track that brings you to the beginning of the Porcupine Rim trail? It is off the Kokapelli trail when you come in from the La Sals. Super nice, tight trail. One of my favorites.

Slickrock would be cool being fully rigid, not much happening there where you need much suspension.

Great time!

[sanrensho]

Originally posted by piledriver
People have missed the point:

If you don't think the existing line is suitable, then at least contact the people regularly working in the area, and explain it to them.
PD

[pete@nsmb.com]

Originally posted by corey@nsmb.com
Overkill is a strong word Lee! :lol:

Ideally, I think a 6 and 6 bike would be perfect for the riding there.

But we were on vacation, not racing, so being a little slower on the climbs wasn't a big deal. I DID like 8 and 8 on the way down Porcupine Rim, I don't see how anyone couldn't, cause you can just fly!

Definately far from required, but fun to have and no need to justify having it.



I was there on a 6 and 6 in October, and I was wishing for a 5 and 5, BUT...that 6 and 6 tore a piece out of Amasa Back that I would never have imagined during previouus trips there. One bike for Moab, though - 5 and 5. Two bikes...Ti hardtail and 7 and 6 that can climb.

Who taught you how to spell 'defineately'?

What I really wanted to say was that switchbacks are a trail feature, and cutting them is pretty much offside in my mind, no matter how much Smoke (hi Smokie!) comes close to hypnotizing us as he descends into the "freeride philosopher" mindframe, I think it's better to try to preserve the old line, and find variations that open up due to new bikes within the confines of the originally cut trail. Makes you want to pull out the hardtail sometimes and remember what it used to be like, or even better, maybe convince a few people they need to buy hardtails.

[corey@nsmb.com]

Who? Obviously not the same guy who taught you to spell "previous". :lol: :cuffs:

I had a hardtail there...I just never used it outside of the skatepark and just general bombing around town. I just always opted to bring the big rig.

If you only had one choice, I agree, 5 and 5 or 6 and 6, would be perfect.

[pete@nsmb.com]

Previous was spelled correctly, nerf boy.

Ouch - is it possible to cuff yourself?

[corey@nsmb.com]

:lol:, damn, I was trying to fool you into thinking you were human too and capable of the odd typo. You've figured out my phantom thread editing.

Nerf boy? Please explain, that must be a new "Euro Burn" you picked up in the alps!

[pete@nsmb.com]

Like a boy, but the nerf version.

And don't get me started on the euro burns - the mullets I see here are world class. I could start my own site: euromullets.com. It's incredible. But to unhijack this thread and prevent you from getting back on the horse...

I miss the shore! I wish I was there to cut switchbacks, or not. The trails here are so old the switchbacks fix themselves. Really, there is some amazing riding here, and the views are great, but I miss not being able to look up and enjoy the view or you'll end up looking at the dark side of your arse while you tumble down the rhubarb.

[RiDiCuLoUs]

ive cut over :eek:

[Uncle Duke]

Originally posted by Sharon
maybe we need to go back to smaller bikes that are better at technical trails rather then big bikes .... :eek:

[Shakes]

i think if you have to change a trail because you cant ride it then maybe you shouldn't.

slowdown stunts shouldn't be avoided just because you want everything to be a-line.

if you really want a new line build your own trail.


re:moab - hazard county is one of the best experiences of my life

[Uncle Duke]

Originally posted by Shakes
i think if you have to change a trail because you cant ride it then maybe you shouldn't.


agreed.

[corey@nsmb.com]

Originally posted by Shakes
i think if you have to change a trail because you cant ride it then maybe you shouldn't.

Not to argue at all, but I really think that is an unfair assesment of why these things are happening.

It is too easy to write it off as someone else not having the skill to clean the existing line.

In many of the places that this is happening, the trail is easy and it isn't done as a cop out for an easier route.

More often than not it seems someone is straightlining something or short-cutting.

I don't know, maybe I am wrong, but implying that people who are doing this are crappy riders isn't going to make them stop and think about it.

IMO forget skill level, forget bike type, forget travel, forget all that. The problem is people creating lines that were not intended to be there.

[Shakes]

Originally posted by corey@nsmb.com
IMO forget skill level, forget bike type, forget travel, forget all that. The problem is people creating lines that were not intended to be there.

well said.
the voice of reason once again.

[Uncle Duke]

Originally posted by corey@nsmb.com
Not to argue at all, but I really think that is an unfair assesment of why these things are happening.

It is too easy to write it off as someone else not having the skill to clean the existing line.

In many of the places that this is happening, the trail is easy and it isn't done as a cop out for an easier route.

More often than not it seems someone is straightlining something or short-cutting.

I don't know, maybe I am wrong, but implying that people who are doing this are crappy riders isn't going to make them stop and think about it.

IMO forget skill level, forget bike type, forget travel, forget all that. The problem is people creating lines that were not intended to be there.

yea thats true...

[The_Real_Yeti]

punishable by bad karma for sure

[Ed Anger]

Originally posted by Shakes
the trails i'm thinking of were definately cut by freeriders.
the trials MX'ers here are a solid bunch. actualy they build most of the trails in the hood hence my defence.

I'm not dissing our motorized brethren as a group, and am duly grateful for the trails they've built in the hood. However, not all have good trail manners: I hike the woods as much as I ride 'em, and MX'ers cut switchbacks too.

[barry]

Originally posted by Ed Anger
I'm not dissing our motorized brethren as a group, and am duly grateful for the trails they've built in the hood. However, not all have good trail manners: I hike the woods as much as I ride 'em, and MX'ers cut switchbacks too.
i know what you mean. trials MX riders are a solid bunch, but theres a few new school MX riders (250cc bikes?) that are totally disrespectful. totally obliterating gaps to accomidate them ( 1ft high 15ft long tables). I don't see them in the "hood" too much though :D

barry