Nailing into live trees - the final word

[KenN]

From the BC Forest Practices Act:
http://www.legis.gov.bc.ca/37th3rd/3rd_read/gov74-3.htm

Part 5, Division 2, Paragraph 55

On private land that is subject to an agreement under the Forest Act or on Crown land, a person must not

(a) drive or place any nail, spike or other potentially hazardous object into any timber that the person does not own or is not authorized to alter,

(b) possess any nail, spike or other potentially hazardous object with the intention of driving or placing it into any timber that the person does not own or is not authorized to alter, or

(c) solicit funds or materials from another person with the stated intention that the funds or material will be used to enable any person to drive or place any nail, spike or other potentially hazardous object into any timber that the person does not own or is not authorized to alter.


Paragraph 87

(4) A person who contravenes section 23, 51 (6), 53, 55 (b) or (c) or 57 commits an offence and is liable on conviction to a fine not exceeding $5 000 or to imprisonment for not more than 6 months, or to both.


I guess it's not just a matter of opinion. It's a criminal act.

Kn.

[trail worker]

Originally posted by KenN

I guess it's not just a matter of opinion. It's a criminal act.


lotsa things are a criminal act though..driving without seatbelts is a criminal act, and that people do that everyday. My point is that we shouldnt ignore the law, but this still is sort of a matter of opinion in a way...you can either chose to obey or ignore the law

[bullit_kid]

oh well, it is a tree

and we are only human

[KenN]

Originally posted by trail worker
lotsa things are a criminal act though..driving without seatbelts is a criminal act, and that people do that everyday. My point is that we shouldnt ignore the law, but this still is sort of a matter of opinion in a way...you can either chose to obey or ignore the law

Okay, I'll give you a point there. But let me toss a couple of thoughts out. If you choose to break the law, you should first look at the reasons the law exists and see if that law is fair and just. There's quite a bit of personal experience and opinion that'll come into the picture here - you can't avoid it. Most acts of civil disobedience are because of personal bias and opinion.

For example, when I drive, I rarely obey the posted speed limit. My research and experience lead me to believe that the speed limits posted are ridiculously low, and the speed you drive has only a very small effect on the risk of an accident. Comprehensive driver training will do a lot more to reduce accidents than lower speed limits. I believe that the various levels of government have no incentive to train drivers better and thus allow speed limits to be raised because that kills off the beautiful revenue stream they get from speeding tickets. So, I say screw em and drive at the speed where I'm comfortable.

Now, back to topic. We are a resource based economy, and logging is one of the resources. A nail in a tree becomes a missile if a chainsaw hits it. Any crown land could potentially be logged at some time, so that's the reason for the law. It protects the workers, and it doesn't matter whether the nail they get hit with was but their by an eco-terrorist or by a biker just out to make some fun trails, the logger is just as dead either way! So, in my mind, there is a good reason for the law and I choose to obey it.

Of course, we're free to have our own opinions and yours may be different, but I'm hoping you'll see my endless gabbing to be at least interesting, if not useful.

Later!!

Kn.

[LostBoyScout]

The only complication to leaving nailing into tree's as a personal decision of whether or not to obey the law, is that by choosing to not obey the law, you also place not just your own, but everyone else's right to use the land in jeopardy. We don't want to give the government any more reason to shut down our trails than necessary. So if you can avoid it, please do. I personally don't care if a few trees get killed, but I do care about my right to ride!

[Grimace]

lol if only forestry had the manpower to enforce that hahah

[Sharon]

Originally posted by KenN
From the BC Forest Practices Act:
http://www.legis.gov.bc.ca/37th3rd/3rd_read/gov74-3.htm

Part 5, Division 2, Paragraph 55

On private land that is subject to an agreement under the Forest Act or on Crown land, a person must not



the above refers to private land...

[/QUOTE]
http://www.for.gov.bc.ca/tasb/legsr...act/part5-4.htm

Forest Practices Code of BC Act

103. A person must not
(a) drive or place any nail, spike or other potentially hazardous object into any timber that the person does not own or is not authorized to alter,
[/QUOTE]

the above refers to crown land...

It seems that if a section of forest is going to be logged in the future, you should not be nailing into trees. If the area is not to be logged and you have permission from the land owners, then it should be ok.

So what about the woodlot...

[KenN]

Ehhhh ... I disagree. Try reading it this way ...

On {private land that is subject to an agreement under the Forest Act} or {on Crown land}, a person must not ...

Don't you have a lawyer friend? You should pressure him to put in his 2 pence!

Kn.

[Niggz]

Originally posted by KenN
Ehhhh ... I disagree. Try reading it this way ...

On {private land that is subject to an agreement under the Forest Act} or {on Crown land}, a person must not ...

Don't you have a lawyer friend? You should pressure him to put in his 2 pence!

Kn.

lol isnt Lee a lawyer?

[GrimniR]

Fact: nailing into a live mature tree does not damage the tree.

Fact: a nail hitting a saw blade can maim or even kill a millworker.

All the more reason to use bolts when anchoring to tree, and use them sparingly. Bolts are much easier to remove than big ass nails. I tend not to obey many laws, but loggers have enough freaks (Earth First!, etc.) out to kill them.

[Ah-Choo]

The reality is that any metal object used to fasten to tree is a potential missile. It is highly unlikely that these areas will be logged tomorrow, but more likely when one looks to the long term. Metal objects into trees will succumb to growth in about 10 years, becoming invisible under the bark. The concern is not for today, but for in fifty years time, likely after shore riding has been and gone...we'll be having too much fun on our rocket sleds to clean up the mess...

Why nail into trees in the first place? Properly built, free standing stunts are far more impressive, nicer to ride and as strong or stronger than stunts nailed into trees. Bottom line...nailing into trees is the hallmark of lazy builders.

[DangerBoy]

doesn't putting a nail into a tree cause it to disease and decay?.....since the nail will eventually get rusty and rust breeds bacteria and will be transfered onto the treee causign it to be sick and decay........just something i learned at the boyscouts!:D

[wilkez]

i cant see anything wrong iwth it. doesnt the city of north can own most of the land up there?

well if they own it, is that considered crown land or what. cuz if its not, then its the city's fault if things are nailed in. THEY tell nsmba what to do, nsmba tells builders what to do. if they city doesnt specify that no nails are to go into trees, then its their fault for not saying anything.

thats how i see it. now im scared for our big ladder :(

[barry]

im not well read on many things....this subject included

but its my opinion that the government is being a wee bit hippocritical on this matter...does anyone know what im trying to get at?

like, they promote logging of 1000 year old growth forests in the elaho valley, and then they call it a criminal act to nail a few up in NV

it seems to me the only logging\destruction of forest that they dont frown upon is logging that they profit from

[barry]

Originally posted by GrimniR
Fact: a nail hitting a saw blade can maim or even kill a millworker.
[/B]
i think that it would be obvious to most loggers where there are nails stuck into trees (where there are stunts etc)

but i agree that ppl should make an effort to let ppl know where they are

[barry]

Originally posted by Ah-Choo
Bottom line...nailing into trees is the hallmark of lazy builders.
i simply dont agree;)

[Niggz]

Originally posted by Barry
i think that it would be obvious to most loggers where there are nails stuck into trees (where there are stunts etc)

but i agree that ppl should make an effort to let ppl know where they are

i think the thing is in 50 years if they log it the stunt may have been taken down/rotted away and the tree grown around the nail.

i also think that using a tree for at least one side of the support will give the ladder more advantages than disadvantages. i dont think i've found any free standing stunt that has less movement than one attached to a tree. you cant get much more solid than a tree. i'm talking big ones (3 feet across), not any little pinner things. and the argument that i've heard about what if the tree falls down it will take down the whole ladder, well if you build it freestanding next to the tree and it falls it will still knock down your ladder. does anyone know the situation of nailing into trees on DNV land. i was never really aware of this until now and am starting to worry about the new ladder me and wilkez have put up. i'm sure i was told that it was ok but i dont reallly know now...:S

[dirty-bike]

Originally posted by Ah-Choo
Bottom line...nailing into trees is the hallmark of lazy builders.


Originally posted by Barry
thats a retarded thing to say...:rolleyes:

Well I must be retarded too because I agree with ah-choo 100%

[Sharon]

Originally posted by Niggz
does anyone know the situation of nailing into trees on DNV land. i was never really aware of this until now and am starting to worry about the new ladder me and wilkez have put up. i'm sure i was told that it was ok but i dont reallly know now...:S

The DNV would like you to NOT nail into live trees.

[Sharon]

Originally posted by Barry


like, they promote logging of 1000 year old growth forests in the elaho valley, and then they call it a criminal act to nail a few up in NV


It is because the area may be logged in the future that they do not want you to nail into live trees. As Ah-choo mentioned, nails pose a risk to loggers. If one tree may contain one nail within a stand that area probably will not be harvested. Due to the streamlined process they don't pick and choose the trees that will be cut.

[wilkez]

Originally posted by Sharon
The DNV would like you to NOT nail into live trees.

oh shiznit. they better not go up for a mtn in spection then cuz lee told us to just do it. oh well its been tehre for a while i dont think its going anywhere quick

[GrimniR]

Originally posted by Ah-Choo

Why nail into trees in the first place? Properly built, free standing stunts are far more impressive, nicer to ride and as strong or stronger than stunts nailed into trees. Bottom line...nailing into trees is the hallmark of lazy builders.

I don't think that's a retarded thing to say...BUT - there are a lot of guys who are lazy and are going to anchor to trees. There are also a few instances where anchoring to a tree is really the only option. Since anchoring to tree is something that's going to be done regardless of legality or because it's a lazy thing to do, I still think it's wise to use bolts. A bolt is much easier to remove from a tree than a nail. I don't use nails for anything anymore - timber bolts to anchor and to join stringers and supports and 4" woodscrews to fasten treads (or rungs or shakes, etc) to the stringers.

[barry]

Originally posted by Sharon
If one tree may contain one nail within a stand that area probably will not be harvested.
so we might actually be protecting the forests by nailing into trees...:eek:...my my how ironic

and ah-choo, my bad for being an idiot, but i just dont agree with you.....it is the easy way out, but theres some real dedicated, unlazy buiders who build off trees.

[Mountain Biker]

Originally posted by Barry
so we might actually be protecting the forests by nailing into trees

your more likely to endanger a forestry worker than to save a grove of trees.

a nail can be easily missed by a chainsaw, but once that tree is getting cut into 2x4's it could become a real problem.

[Ah-Choo]

Originally posted by Barry
so we might actually be protecting the forests by nailing into trees...:eek:...my my how ironic

and ah-choo, my bad for being an idiot, but i just dont agree with you.....it is the easy way out, but theres some real dedicated, unlazy buiders who build off trees.

Actually quite the opposite. Due to the Zero tolerance forest fire practices (for obvious reasons) The North Shore Actually needs some of the Larger trees removed for the GOOD of the forest...

[drezy]

Ken, in the time since you replied to the PM I sent you, I've had some time to talk to the people who are currently logging the area up here in PG that we are building and riding in. They are logging "selectively" in this area trying to rid the area of the mountain pine beetle. They are not clearcutting the area. The guys basically said that anything that is nailed to a pine is going to come down. So even if anyone is not concerned about the safety of the people working in this industry, or worried about killing trees, you may want to refrain from nailing to live trees in order to save you're stunts. This may not be relevant in all areas, however, it may be a reality in the areas where there is a large concentration of pine. The last few stunts that have been built by our "crew" have been free-standing. It's more work, but in the end I think it's worth it.

[Pat T.®]

Ahh Choo I agree with you, and Ken (course I always agree with Ken, that's what he pays me for...LOL). I've hit a nail with a saw before, didn't even know it was there, and I'll tell ya that bar gets close to your face really really fast. Luckily I only cut the bill on my hat, but my cousin has a big scar on his face from his snapped saw chain......love to see some of you guys go a few round with him on this lol, he's a contact faller and he has seen more than his fair share of nails. But I guess if it is your trees, then do with them what you will..... But I know for a fact that almost all government types will not accept nailing into trees, land owners for the most part will not accept it, loggers by far will probably kick your ass for doing it, the NSMBA frowns upon it, IMBA frowns upon it, and ESTA (whom I work for) frowns upon it. There really is no reason to just not make a freestanding stunt, or just not make the big ass stunt at all......something more like CBC with low to the ground stuff. Trailworker and I have talked about this before (well and quite a few others) and we have our differences in opinions, but we also share opinions on that stunts need to be very well built and I think he does that well from what I have seen.

[trail worker]

Originally posted by Pat T.®
Trailworker and I have talked about this before (well and quite a few others) and we have our differences in opinions, but we also share opinions on that stunts need to be very well built and I think he does that well from what I have seen.

thanks pat!

[RAWB]

Here's an interesting article. I think that Vancouver residence and frequent visitors will find it interesting. Note, it was writen by the same guy who sunk a Icelandtic whaling fleet (Paul Watson) and is critiqued by some forestry workers union.

http://bari.iww.org/iu120/local/Watson1.html

[Pat T.®]

Originally posted by trail worker
thanks pat!

No prob :D

[barry]

Originally posted by Ah-Choo
Actually quite the opposite. Due to the Zero tolerance forest fire practices (for obvious reasons) The North Shore Actually needs some of the Larger trees removed for the GOOD of the forest...
good point with the fire

[Dean Reid]

Structures should stand on their own . Trees grow upward at different rates . If you have to nail a tree , you are being lazy. The same can be said for live roots , build over them and not through them .

[switch]

Originally posted by Dean Reid
Structures should stand on their own . Trees grow upward at different rates . If you have to nail a tree , you are being lazy. The same can be said for live roots , build over them and not through them .

If a) it's illegal to nail to trees, and b) your local biking association/organization (such as NSMBA) says not to nail into trees, then don't do it. Is it that hard to fathom?

If your only option for a stunt is to nail into trees, then don't put the stunt up.

Lazy sums it up.

[Flo addict]

Originally posted by Barry
im not well read on many things....this subject included

but its my opinion that the government is being a wee bit hippocritical on this matter...does anyone know what im trying to get at?

like, they promote logging of 1000 year old growth forests in the elaho valley, and then they call it a criminal act to nail a few up in NV

it seems to me the only logging\destruction of forest that they dont frown upon is logging that they profit from

Here, here. You hit the nail* on the head with that one.

But let's face it, we have to take responsibility for ourselves, as riders. Mountainbikers are relatively new to the land use game. We have some things to learn. Forestry, mining, urban growth, parks etc have been hammering out ways to coexist on the landscape for years. Remember the LRMPs of the province? What's my point? Seeing as we aren't the only ones out there, and the trails we build eventually take a backseat to the newest, sickest, better trails only to fall down and grow over...we do have a habit of leaving a few things in our wake. i.e. nails in trees. We have to start getting organized (more local mtb groups) and decommission trails properly...same goes for building new ones!

and that's my rant.

:D :D

[Incorrigible]

Quite honestly, I see there are a lot of people in Vancouver who have no idea how lucky they are to have such nice riding available FOR FREE. Some of you are willing to throw it away for the sake of a couple of stunts.

That being said, I can't see anybody who is defending the actual trees. They are just useful for whatever purpose it suits people, whether it's logging to keep a few jobs, or for the purpose of building a stunt. Don't be so sure the guy who wants to cut down the odd large tree (what a coincidence, a big tree = big $) has the forest as a whole in mind. Most people do things for the good of THEMSELVES, and eff everybody else.

Is there no way to build a good stunt, while still leaving the live tree out of it?

PS it was -15 out today where I live. It sucks big time.

[Loopie]

Originally posted by Niggz
i think the thing is in 50 years if they log it the stunt may have been taken down/rotted away and the tree grown around the nail.
exactly....simply amazing how many overlook this :rolleyes:

[KW@/\/SMB.com]

Riding on sidewalks is illegal.
It's illegal to turn without a hand signal.

How many of you obey those laws?

[switch]

Originally posted by KW@/\/SMB.com
Riding on sidewalks is illegal.
It's illegal to turn without a hand signal.

How many of you obey those laws?

Buggery is illegal too.

[KW@/\/SMB.com]

Originally posted by switch
Buggery is illegal too.

What is buggery?

[switch]

Originally posted by KW@/\/SMB.com
What is buggery?

Ask Diggler - he's a master of it.

[Pat T.®]

Originally posted by Loopie
exactly....simply amazing how many overlook this :rolleyes:

Really? I'd love to see the look on your face when the chain saw you are running hits a nail and kicks back and almost takes your head off. Use your brain, it's not just the trees we are talking about, we are also talking about saving lives in the woods and in the mills. Because like it or not the trees will be logged someday, and it's not worth anyones life just because of a nail.

[Loopie]

I'm not sure how you could have misunderstood what I said:???:

I was agreeing that the nails would still be there in 50yrs.
And people OVERLOOK this fact when building without responsibility.
:)

[Pat T.®]

Originally posted by Loopie
I'm not sure how you could have misunderstood what I said:???:

I was agreeing that the nails would still be there in 50yrs.
And people OVERLOOK this fact when building without responsibility.
:)


OMG....I completely misunderstood what you said....huge appology man......sheesh what an ass-----> Pat T.®

[Loopie]

No prob:thepimp:

[RMFanatik]

Is it possible to use nylon ropes or something equivalent to tie to trees. You could adjust it when the tree grew. It wouldn't do anything to a saw. Probably take more maintance tho. How do Dan and Digger attach trestles to trees?? Just for the record stuff in our area is free standing built with screws or bolts. Just thought if an alterative was offered instead of just NO it might help. I mean if people are going to use existing live trees anyway providing a safe alternative may reduce the nailing practice. Not sure bout other areas, but hear using live trees is a problem not cause of logging (we don't have enough to log and never will) but cause the winds(sometimes 70+km/h) make them sway too much to use. Well hopefully some of this rambling makes sense. thanks for reading

[switch]

I've seen stunts held up with thick nylon rope; it can be done.

[Pat T.®]

Originally posted by switch
I've seen stunts held up with thick nylon rope; it can be done.

I rode over a small stunt that was built that way, it's makes it more interesting thats for sure....kind of like riding during an earthquake....lol

[switch]

Originally posted by Pat T.®
I rode over a small stunt that was built that way, it's makes it more interesting thats for sure....kind of like riding during an earthquake....lol

It just has to be done well. Look at Tarzan's house - it's huge, and he didn't use any nails. :D