Earn your downhill....

[spleen]

I know this is going to ruffle a few feathers but after reading all the responses to the whole shuttling issue on Seymour I had to chime in.

Ride your bike up the hill!

Novell concept I know - one that is probably lost on the younger generation, but one that would solve a lot of problems on the local hills. Reduced traffic, reduced parking issues, reduced pollution, reduced stress on the trails, even reduced waist-lines!

Instead of bragging about 6 runs down Neds, brag about how you climbed up to CBC and passed a bunch of riders on big bikes (huffing and puffing from lack of fitness and trying to pedal a 45lb bike through singletrack) on the way down.

Ride your bike up, earn your downhill - who knows it might help you win a downhill race (with the increased fitness) or hell - you might even live longer.

If your bike is to big and heavy to ride up maybe it is time to stop using the long travel, big hit bikes to cover for lack of skill and finese. Too many riders today believe that you have to have a triple clamp fork and 8 inches of rear travel to ride the shore.

I wonder how far off is the day that the parks and GVRD finally figure out that if they ban ALL shuttling on the mountains it will greatly cut down on the amount damage that is done to the trails!?!

[corey@nsmb.com]

Why not enjoy your bike and how you choose to ride it instead of ranting about how someone else chooses to ride theirs.

Really, it isn't anyone's business but your own when it comes to how you ride.

Sometimes I shuttle. Sometimes I climb. Sometimes I ride urban. All the time it really doesn't concern you, and nobody is in any sort of position to make any judgement or assumptions based on that.

I also have a long travel bike. I also have a small travel hard tail. They say nothing about my skill level at all, but they do say that I enjoy bikes and riding them. Thats all that matters.

[Lady Gravity]

Originally posted by spleen
If your bike is to big and heavy to ride up maybe it is time to stop using the long travel, big hit bikes to cover for lack of skill and finese. Too many riders today believe that you have to have a triple clamp fork and 8 inches of rear travel to ride the shore.

oh please...give me a break :rolleyes: can you say "troll"

just ride your bike
seems to me too many people care about what and how other people ride - why waste your time

[Req]

But then again, spleen makes the point that it will help ensure we'll have a place to ride in years to come.

[speed metal]

I agree. Why get do hot under the collar when someone points out a viable idea? Taking it a little personal?

With all the increased traffic on the Shore (and it's trails) it will become saturated-if it hasn't already. Who wants to lose the privilege of riding the Shore? The land can only take so much overuse.

[the flying moose]

i agree with both Mulletron and spleen.

mullys point about not worrying about how anyone rides but yourself is right.

spleen brings up the point that if there are those people who constantly shuttle and are causing the trails to erode faster than normal then there is a problem.

mullet you say you ride up. good for you. what would you rather do: A. pedal up Seymour and have a nice ride down on some nice techy trails or b. pedal up Seymour only to ride down a trail that is so eroded or so built up that it is basically paved?

i dont think spleen is meaning to bash anyone else and how they choose to ride, he is simply offering a possible solution to the problems that we, as bikers, face on our trails.

[sanrensho]

Originally posted by lancepaydirt
i dont think spleen is meaning to bash anyone else and how they choose to ride, he is simply offering a possible solution to the problems that we, as bikers, face on our trails.

Agreed, some of the reactions to spleen's post come off as being rather defensive.;) There's nothing wrong with suggesting that people occasionally ride up instead of shuttling.

I also wouldn't be surprised if the GVRD or Parks eventually chose to limit bike traffic in order prevent excessive erosion.

[c2skyrida]

Repeated shuttles increase traffic and certainly contribute to the erosion of trails. However, shuttling is a way of life nowadays, it ain't going to go away! As for my riding choices being "right" or "wrong", I for one, fully realize the health benefits derived form climbing, however I also enjoy getting in a few runs via shuttle to maximize my enjoyment of one of my few days off. If you don't like it - too bad.

[EaTDuRRRT]

I really dont see the point in discussing how trails will erode, wear and tear. That is completely inevitable considering the explosion of freeriding as a sport. This is what happens when the media grabs a hold of things and exploits them (good or bad). The North Shore is going to continuously get more traffic on its trails and this is what the local riders, or any rider in general have to accept. It seems kinda hypocritical in a sense that so many people want the sport of freeriding to be recognized, but at the same time, they want to have their secret trails and pristine riding areas all to themselves. It just doesn't work like that. The sport is growing, and it is important to acknowledge the effects of that.

Plus, I dont need to hear about skill and which bike you ride. That is not important, I ride a bike for a rush and I could get that feeling on a hardtail, duelly, unicycle...whatever. I'm sure many others feel the same way.

And for the shuttle service up seymour... this is a great service that is provided to riders and if I choose to take advantage of this service, that isn't necessarily a bad thing or make me (or other riders) inferior. Sure it makes sense to ride up seymour, but people may not have the time, could have health problems, plus some people are just lazy. So what, big deal... I dont think we need to create the perfect prototype biker that rides uphill to the trail heads, does an X amount of trail day hours, is respectful to the trails and surrounding community. Unfortunately, that just isn't realistic and there will always be negatives.

P.S. nothing in this post is personal or directed to anyone in particular. these are just things I wanted to get off my chest...

[Dr. Octagon]

shuttling wrecked the shore along with the onslaught of affordable 8" travel bikes and the hacks that skid them down the mountain.

[sanrensho]

Originally posted by EaTDuRRRT
I really dont see the point in discussing how trails will erode, wear and tear. That is completely inevitable considering the explosion of freeriding as a sport...

Unfortunately, your post has nothing positive to say in terms of offering a solution to the issues we are faced with on the Shore. According to your comments, trail erosion is inevitable, more traffic is inevitable, and it isn't realistic to expect riders to participate in trail days, consider riding to the traihead, and respect the trails and surrounding community.

Essentially, you're propagating the notion that people should do nothing.

[EaTDuRRRT]

no, i wasn't or didn't intend to propogate the notion of doing nothing. I was stressing the fact that freeding is becoming bigger and bigger and these problems on the shore are inevtiable...that doesn't mean we can't do anything about them though

I dont have the solutions or the answers to these problems. If I did, it would make the world a lot easier. All I can say is to continue with the routine NSMBA traildays to make sure that the trails are built well enough to sustain the traffic that they get.

[corey@nsmb.com]

Originally posted by Dr. Octagon
shuttling wrecked the shore along with the onslaught of affordable 8" travel bikes and the hacks that skid them down the mountain.

And attitudes like that continue to make it worse.

Ride your bike and have fun. :)

[Lady Gravity]

Originally posted by sanrensho
Agreed, some of the reactions to spleen's post come off as being rather defensive.;) There's nothing wrong with suggesting that people occasionally ride up instead of shuttling.

I also wouldn't be surprised if the GVRD or Parks eventually chose to limit bike traffic in order prevent excessive erosion.

actually i ride up way more than i shuttle. i sort of figure it as earning the ride down :)

however...i'm not really sure how you're going to eliminate shuttling, or limit bike traffic, short of someone standing at the beginning of a trail, counting the number of bikers going down and then saying "ok, that's it, everyone turn around and go home" :???:

and as far as saying only hacks ride 8" travel bikes and dc forks...well i personally consider myself a hack, however, a lot of the guys i ride with are not.

[corey@nsmb.com]

The whole travel vs. skill level argument is bullshit.

A) Who are you to judge someones skill based on their bikes travel?

B) At what point in suspension travel do you turn from being incredibly skilled to a hack? 3", 4", 5" 6", 7", 8"?? Will you become a hack if you choose to buy next years model of your favorite bike and it happens to have an extra inch of travel?

C) Too many bitter people think they have all the answers.

:)

[EaTDuRRRT]

good call...when really, not enough people have the answers

[sanrensho]

Originally posted by Lady Gravity
actually i ride up way more than i shuttle. i sort of figure it as earning the ride down :)

however...i'm not really sure how you're going to eliminate shuttling, or limit bike traffic, short of someone standing at the beginning of a trail, counting the number of bikers going down and then saying "ok, that's it, everyone turn around and go home" :???:

and as far as saying only hacks ride 8" travel bikes and dc forks...well i personally consider myself a hack, however, a lot of the guys i ride with are not.

I do know that you ride up quite a bit. And that you also participate in trail days despite work/family commitments (I'm in the same boat). :thepimp: I just sensed a defensive tone in some of the responses.

As far as limiting bike traffic, I think there are some possible solutions that aren't completely foolproof but would be reasonable effective, such as a manned gate at the bottom of Mt. Seymour. Controlling access to a park area in this way is nothing new.

Also, I made no comment on the issue of big travel bikes. People will ride the bikes that they want, because that's what the manufacturers offer.

[Dr. Octagon]

not all big travel bike riders are hacks... but alot, if not all hacks are big travel bike riders. and being on a big travel dually isn't helping their skills, either.
hardtails keep you in line, you can't cheat.
too many people start out on huge travel bikes that are super heavy, then of course they can't ride them up the hill...they shuttle, and we know what comes of that.
you can hold on to a big dh rig while it gets out of your control way easier than you can a hardtail, then you end up locking your brakes going off the trail, etc.


remember what ned's was like 3 years ago?

argue til you're blue in the face, no matter how sensitive you are about it, it's true. big bikes and those that can't handle them (ie, hacks) have contributed hugely to the deterioration of shore trails.

[corey@nsmb.com]

Originally posted by Dr. Octagon

argue til you're blue in the face, no matter how sensitive you are about it, it's true. big bikes and those that can't handle them (ie, hacks) have contributed hugely to the deterioration of shore trails.

Big bikes don't ruin the shore.

People who abuse the shore ruin the shore. You can do just as much damage on a small travel ht as you can on a dually, regardless of travel.

[Ned]

Originally posted by Dr. Octagon
argue til you're blue in the face, no matter how sensitive you are about it, it's true. big bikes and those that can't handle them (ie, hacks) have contributed hugely to the deterioration of shore trails.

Hard to argue with that Dr8.

It's just way too easy to haul off and kick everyone in the nuts about the the choad syndrome. The price the choads pay for whoredom.

[sanrensho]

Originally posted by EaTDuRRRT
I really dont see the point in discussing how trails will erode, wear and tear. That is completely inevitable considering the explosion of freeriding as a sport.

Maybe you didn't intend to propagate the notion that people should do nothing. If so, you should reread your post.

If a land manager approached you and asked about the sustainability of mtb trails in a park area, do you say:

a) Trail erosion is inevitable,
b) More bike traffic is inevitable and
c) It isn't realistic to expect bikers to participate in trail days.

Essentially, that's what you wrote. Anyways, I'm guessing that you can see my point.;)

[Putty]

i ruin the shore.

[sanrensho]

Originally posted by putty
i ruin the shore.

More details, please.:D

[Sharon]

Originally posted by EaTDuRRRT

I dont think we need to create the perfect prototype biker that rides uphill to the trail heads, does an X amount of trail day hours, is respectful to the trails and surrounding community. Unfortunately, that just isn't realistic and there will always be negatives.
.

Fortunately for us, these people do exist. You should learn from them.

Perhaps one solution is to start charging for people to ride down the trails. If people do not object to paying for a ride up, they should be perfectly willing to pay even more for the privilege of a trail to ride down.

Volunteers can no longer keep up with the erosion. It is NOT unreasonable to think that the land managers will shut down trails that are not sustainable.

Think about that the on your next 3rd run of the day down Neds.

We hear all the time about how lucky we are to have such a great trail network.

I hope we won't start talking about how lucky we were...

[sanrensho]

Originally posted by Sharon
Volunteers can no longer keep up with the erosion.

Sharon, that is a very significant distinction. If the land managers come to the same conclusion, then we are really in trouble. :eek:

At that point, if the biking community cannot come up with its own solutions, then the land managers will (arbitrarily) impose their solutions on us. And there's no guarantee that those solutions will be agreeable to bikers.

[corey@nsmb.com]

Originally posted by Sharon
Fortunately for us, these people do exist. You should learn from them.

Perhaps one solution is to start charging for people to ride down the trails. If people do not object to paying for a ride up, they should be perfectly willing to pay even more for the privilege of a trail to ride down.


Learn what from them? To ride up sometimes? That deciding to shuttle on a Saturday because you felt like it was evil?

Paying for the ride up is really the same as paying for a ride as a whole. You are not paying to ride up to ride the road down.

I don't see a problem if it comes to a user fee to ride the 3 North Shore mountains. Provided that money goes to the right place, I think it would be a viable solution to allocating funds for maintenance and building.

And Solution 2 exists. Whistler.

[LeeLau]

I am so staying out of this one. Mulletron parries, ripostes, slashes and then parries again.

Love to see lift-served biking at a local mountain take off

[Ned]

Originally posted by putty
i ruin the shore.

Alrighty then... court's officially in session.

I hereby sentence you to a 500 mile ride with me. We will catch the train to Williams Lake with our bikes and necessary goods and ride back to the Lower Mainland over the backroads and no roads on bike of choice. You cook and roll. I will navigate and yell really loud at whom/whatever we come across about the sad state of the NS riding work ethic.

Deal?

PS: Mulletron, you really got a bug up your a$$ today huh?

[corey@nsmb.com]

Originally posted by LeeLau
I am so staying out of this one. Mulletron parries, ripostes, slashes and then parries again.

Love to see lift-served biking at a local mountain take off



You like fencing Lee?

Lift access locally would be ideal, as it would alleviate a lot of the volume on the trails by people who choose to shuttle on any given day.

[corey@nsmb.com]

Originally posted by Ned

PS: Mulletron, you really got a bug up your a$$ today huh?

:lol: Why? Because I am participating in a debate and not agreeing with everything? :(

[Putty]

Originally posted by Ned
Alrighty then... court's officially in session.

I hereby sentence you to a 500 mile ride with me. We will catch the train to Williams Lake with our bikes and necessary goods and ride back to the Lower Mainland over the backroads and no roads on bike of choice. You cook and roll. I will navigate and yell really loud at whom/whatever we come across about the sad state of the NS riding work ethic.

Deal?

PS: Mulletron, you really got a bug up your a$$ today huh?

judge 1000 years preciding.

anytime Ned, and I mean anytime!!

actually that sounds like the holiday i should have had in the last 5 years (but didn't) can we wear spandex? i hear it scares the bears.

[corey@nsmb.com]

..you guys are nuts!

[sanrensho]

Originally posted by Mulletron
Lift access locally would be ideal, as it would alleviate a lot of the volume on the trails by people who choose to shuttle on any given day.

Can't agree more.:)

[LeeLau]

Originally posted by Ned
Alrighty then... court's officially in session.

I hereby sentence you to a 500 mile ride with me. We will catch the train to Williams Lake with our bikes and necessary goods and ride back to the Lower Mainland over the backroads and no roads on bike of choice. You cook and roll. I will navigate and yell really loud at whom/whatever we come across about the sad state of the NS riding work ethic.



ooh. We can go from Chilko Lake to Taseko then head over to Warner then down to Spruce. Then we can do Gold Bridge - Braelorne but then where ....? I might need some brakes on the Bob trailer though

[Lady Gravity]

Originally posted by Mulletron
Lift access locally would be ideal, as it would alleviate a lot of the volume on the trails by people who choose to shuttle on any given day.

YES totally agree.
i'm not sure why one of the local mtns won't step up and create something of this nature - it would take huge pressure off the local trails and create jobs in the way of trail maintenance etc.

and sanrensho...my comment about big travel bikes was more in response to spleen's post.

[Lady Gravity]

Originally posted by putty
...can we wear spandex? i hear it scares the bears.

i think it scares more than the bears :eek:

[WBC]

I dont have anything funny to say :lol:

But we should emphasize riding up more. I shuttle when Im with friends and they dont wanna ride up. I like riding up, too, though.

I won't ride up Cypress because it's a huge fucking mountain and the road is right there, but I'd ride up fromme and not complain cause it makes you feel good and you can be like "AHHH HAHAHA you pussy!!!" to the people that can't.

Also when I ride up, unless Im sick or dehydrated, I always feel all dialed and energized and ready to go have some fun!! it's like the work then the payoff.

Im gonna be such an XC rider if I live past 30 :lol:

[spleen]

Mulletron,

Not to start a war here but it becomes my business (and everyone else's on this board) how other people ride when the Parksboard, one day, considers making a decision to not only ban shuttles, but also all mountain bikers from the trails due to some of the facts that Sharon has stated.

Would you rather ride a bike up a hill and then back down once a day or not be able to ride any trail on that mountain ever again.

I am just saying that it might be something to start thinking about now before we wind up not having trails to ride at all.

[Heatmizer]

I agree that a local mountain should step up and get lift access going for MTB.

With the sucess of Whistler, I can't see what's holding them back except mayeb a deal with Whistler... heheh

They'd do even better because most parents would drive their kids to Cypress/Grouse/Seymour for the day, but who wants to drive their kid to Whistler, then the parent has to stay there too.

I think a local mountain would do HUGE business.

[corey@nsmb.com]

Originally posted by spleen
Mulletron,

Not to start a war here but it becomes my business (and everyone else's on this board) how other people ride when the Parksboard, one day, considers making a decision to not only ban shuttles, but also all mountain bikers from the trails due to some of the facts that Sharon has stated.

Would you rather ride a bike up a hill and then back down once a day or not be able to ride any trail on that mountain ever again.

I am just saying that it might be something to start thinking about now before we wind up not having trails to ride at all.

I appreciate and cherish our trails as much as you and the next guy. The answer to your question is obvious. :)

I don't participate in E-Wars. ;)

[Kyle the Hun]

I don't really have an opinion, as I am not from the shore and don't know how serious the issues are there, but I do have one little observation to make:

I find it kind of funny how whenever LeeLau posts things that are nearly the exact same as this thread, everyone agrees and doesn't argue, and then when somebody people don't know says it, he gets jumped all over. Nice double standards.

[LeeLau]

Originally posted by k-Bizzle
I don't really have an opinion, as I am not from the shore and don't know how serious the issues are there, but I do have one little observation to make:

I find it kind of funny how whenever LeeLau posts things that are nearly the exact same as this thread, everyone agrees and doesn't argue, and then when somebody people don't know says it, he gets jumped all over. Nice double standards.

All those people posting agreeing with me are actually me! I just have lots of time on my hands. Actually I've gotten called on lots of stuff.

Think about those awesome trails you have in Terrace. Think about 10x the amount of people on those trails. Then imagine those people leaving garbage all over your stunts and taking dumps in the stikine. That'll get your blood boiling I think.

But really we've got a pretty good scene down here and its not half as bad as many places. I went biking down in Marin County in San Fran and there's no biking signs everywhere. So sad.

[Ned]

Originally posted by Mulletron
:lol: Why? Because I am participating in a debate and not agreeing with everything? :(

I just get this picture of some rabid guy at work foaming at the mouth arguing (er.. um.. debating) over the web with X number of people at any given time. An oversimplified observation is all it is.

Now I need to get out my cane and start swinging... :D

[CraigH]

Originally posted by LeeLau

Love to see lift-served biking at a local mountain take off

Is that going to happen in say the next 2 years?

I've heard rumours for the last 5, but none have opened the doors yet.

[CraigH]

Originally posted by WBC
I won't ride up Cypress because it's a huge fucking mountain and the road is right there,

Actually, Cypress isn't to bad to ride up. It would be a lot better if the police would actually enforce the speed limits on the hill though, riding up with someone speeding by at 100mph a foot away from your shoulder isn't much fun.

[TylerDurden]

Shuttle-only folk remind of the blue-hairs that use the golf carts to get to their aerogate in the airport.

If you're too fat, lazy or unmotivated to climb up, then you're not ready for mountain biking.

[Ned]

Originally posted by putty
judge 1000 years preciding.

anytime Ned, and I mean anytime!!

actually that sounds like the holiday i should have had in the last 5 years (but didn't) can we wear spandex? i hear it scares the bears.

It would involve some serious Ikea bribery on my part to do a ride such as that these days. But when I am finally cut free of the infant and young obnoxious 4yr old chains all I can say is that I will be so phookin' hungry for some real riding that... I dunno what I'll do... <going Postal>

Spandex? Ummm... no. That's Lee's department I believe ;).

[Dave K]

LIft serviced riding locally?? Well, Grouse already gets a ton of visiters in the summer. They actually get more visits in the summer than the winter. Perhaps now that they have a quad chair to the top of the Peak, something may happen. They'd still have to figure something out with the Tram however.

Cypress and Seymour are provincial parks. Try to imagine the red tape you'd have to wade through to get them to cut new trails and create lift serviced riding through the summer. The paperwork would be enough to keep Lee busy for years.

[sanrensho]

Originally posted by CraigH
Actually, Cypress isn't to bad to ride up. It would be a lot better if the police would actually enforce the speed limits on the hill though, riding up with someone speeding by at 100mph a foot away from your shoulder isn't much fun.

Ugh. :mad: At this point, I give the staredown to any car that is coming up behind me, just to make sure that they give me enough room. If not, I have enough time to ride off the road if need be.

On the other hand, I did notice that the cops hauled in (what appeared to be) a bunch of street racers coming down from Mt. Seymour. This was about a week ago on Mt. Seymour. I assume that someone had the good sense to call in a complaint.

[Onegear]

I agree that lift-serviced biking should be introduced in the local area, it would relax alot of traffic off of the shuttle trails

Still, the fact remains that there are a significant amount of people that want to shuttle, and not ride a 35+lbs bike up a hill. I have stopped riding with a group because they refused to go to fromme because they had to pedal up hill. The fact of shuttleing isn't the problem, its the ease of it and the numbers of people that partake in it. Just think of all the people that would go to fromme over seymour, if shuttleing was an option.

if everyone had to pedal up to CBC to ride it once. they may realize the value in the ability to shuttle that and all of the seymour trails on any given day. and possibly become aware of the damage caused by repeat runs.

And how many times can you do neds before you get bored stupid, anyways.:D

[wickedmcdougle]

Originally posted by TylerDurden
Shuttle-only folk remind of the blue-hairs that use the golf carts to get to their aerogate in the airport.

If you're too fat, lazy or unmotivated to climb up, then you're not ready for mountain biking.

ouch! Why don't you stir that pot some more?!

If you're going to call shuttlers fat, lazy, or unmotivated, this the wrong place to do it. Go ride up a hill and vent your anger.

ps I'm not trying to be a mod, this is just my opinion

[c2skyrida]

Originally posted by TylerDurden
Shuttle-only folk remind of the blue-hairs that use the golf carts to get to their aerogate in the airport.

If you're too fat, lazy or unmotivated to climb up, then you're not ready for mountain biking.

SO...when I own your slow ass on the way down (and I would) do I pretend that because I hate climbs that I am not a mountain biker? Should I make motorbike noises as I whup your ass? I'm confused Mr. I-Climb-so-I-Rule.:rolleyes:

[CraigH]

Originally posted by Dave K
LIft serviced riding locally?? Well, Grouse already gets a ton of visiters in the summer. They actually get more visits in the summer than the winter. Perhaps now that they have a quad chair to the top of the Peak, something may happen. They'd still have to figure something out with the Tram however.


The rumour I'd heard was they didn't want the scary smelly mountain bikers interfering with the sight seeing tourists.

The way to deal with the problem would be the same way Whistler does, keep them seperated.
Grouse already has 2 independent trams. Use the smaller service tram for the bikers.

Anyone know the real story instead of the rumours I've heard?

[Onegear]

I like motor bike noises:D
Varooooom varoom

[bullit_kid]

Originally posted by spleen
Ride your bike up the hill!

Novell concept I know - one that is probably lost on the younger generation,

its says here that you're 33 years old, how would you know what concepts the youth of today rely on in mountain biking (unless your a youth coucilor (sp??) or something

but

that is a retarded comment, if you actually sat on cbc for more than 30 minutes on a saturday in july/august you would notice most of the riders are 25+ and most of them shuttle ..

i know A LOT of kids who ride up grouse to get to the awesome trails, they wont ride up seymour because the trails are so easy and poorly maintained ( yes this is changing i hope )

[c2skyrida]

Here's an idea! Get the riders who insist that riding up is mandatory, "pure", and all that other B.S. Rig them up to a massive bullwheel (like a chairlift) and have them use a pulley system to haul up my ass on my big bike. They get their climb and their precious exercise, and I get a lift up. The bonus is...I'll be all fresh and ready to do lots of runs - thus increasing the opportunity for them to gain additional "fun" climbing over and over. A whole new meaning to lift accessed riding. :D

[Ned]

Thick 'tude.

[corey@nsmb.com]

Originally posted by Ned
I just get this picture of some rabid guy at work foaming at the mouth arguing (er.. um.. debating) over the web with X number of people at any given time. An oversimplified observation is all it is.

Now I need to get out my cane and start swinging... :D


..I think you have the wrong guy Ned! :) I am nothing of the sort.

[thatgirl]

ok, I have a question. I haven't been riding for all that long, and of the NS mountains, when I have the time to go, I usually go to Seymour because it can be shuttled, because I usually have to go to work after my ride, so please don't attack me for shuttling..sheesh. Now, I would actually like to ride UP on my days off, but I have seen those poor people pedalling up the road and almost getting clipped by cars..not my idea of fun. I am wondering if there is another way to get to the top without running the risk of being murdered by a car. Anyone? And please don't attack me about asking for directions on the internet.

[LeeLau]

Air is now so full of testosterone could cut it with a chainsaw

[Putty]

here's an idea. why don't we just accept the fact that every rider is different. some people will shuttle, some people will climb. some people will skid down the trail on their HT, some on their FS. just because trails are getting shreded does not mean that anyone who does not want to do trail work will do any, or care about it for that matter.

let people enjoy the sport the way they want to. focus on coming up with a solution that will keep what we have instead of arguing about who's ass is the fatest from not climinbing.

[LeeLau]

Originally posted by thatgirl
ok, I have a question. I haven't been riding for all that long, and of the NS mountains, when I have the time to go, I usually go to Seymour because it can be shuttled, because I usually have to go to work after my ride, so please don't attack me for shuttling..sheesh. Now, I would actually like to ride UP on my days off, but I have seen those poor people pedalling up the road and almost getting clipped by cars..not my idea of fun. I am wondering if there is another way to get to the top without running the risk of being murdered by a car. Anyone? And please don't attack me about asking for directions on the internet.

A good way to go up is to ride up Old Buck. When you get to Old Buck; turn right up the Baden Powell and just keep going up. You'll get to the Powerlines; keep going. Then you get to a gate at Mt Seymour parkway. Turn left and ride up the Parkway. You're then about maybe a km from Neds.

[c2skyrida]

Originally posted by putty
here's an idea. why don't we just accept the fact that every rider is different. some people will shuttle, some people will climb. some people will skid down the trail on their HT, some on their FS. just because trails are getting shreded does not mean that anyone who does not want to do trail work will do any, or care about it for that matter.

let people enjoy the sport the way they want to. focus on coming up with a solution that will keep what we have instead of arguing about who's ass is the fatest from not climinbing.

Sound logic that that just ruins a good argument! :D As the Aussies would say..."good on 'ya".

[LeeLau]

Originally posted by putty
here's an idea. why don't we just accept the fact that every rider is different. some people will shuttle, some people will climb. some people will skid down the trail on their HT, some on their FS. just because trails are getting shreded does not mean that anyone who does not want to do trail work will do any, or care about it for that matter.

let people enjoy the sport the way they want to. focus on coming up with a solution that will keep what we have instead of arguing about who's ass is the fatest from not climinbing.

I love you man!

[c2skyrida]

Originally posted by LeeLau
I love you man!

Now the testosterone has dwindled to dangerous lows....:D

[CraigH]

Originally posted by LeeLau
A good way to go up is to ride up Old Buck. When you get to Old Buck; turn right up the Baden Powell and just keep going up. You'll get to the Powerlines; keep going. Then you get to a gate at Mt Seymour parkway. Turn left and ride up the Parkway. You're then about maybe a km from Neds.

Or turn left (west) when you get to Baden Powell. Cross the powerline clearing. Eventually you get to the mushroom parking lot sign. Neds starts there. A pavement free way to get to Neds.

Edit, you do miss the top portion of Corkscrew and the old road from the middle of Incline to the top of Neds though. (I think it is called the Mushroom trail, although most maps don't seem to have a name on it.)

[LeeLau]

Originally posted by CraigH
The rumour I'd heard was they didn't want the scary smelly mountain bikers interfering with the sight seeing tourists.

The way to deal with the problem would be the same way Whistler does, keep them seperated.
Grouse already has 2 independent trams. Use the smaller service tram for the bikers.

Anyone know the real story instead of the rumours I've heard?

I wish I could tell you something concrete. I know that Cypress is interested in the concept and so is Seymour but like dave said; there's a ton of paperwork to be done on that.

[Ned]

Originally posted by LeeLau
Air is now so full of testosterone could cut it with a chainsaw

Aside from a few good people I know who've lived in Whistler for 15+ years, why is that when I come across people who live there I think they seem completely out of touch? Is it the lack of honest days spent in the workplace? Is it all the time examining one's nostril through a mirror on a table? No, it's just a la-la land full of escapists.

[Zedbra]

Originally posted by Ned
Aside from a few good people I know who've lived in Whistler for 15+ years, why is that when I come across people who live there I think they seem completely out of touch? Is it the lack of honest days spent in the workplace? Is it all the time examining one's nostril through a mirror on a table? No, it's just a la-la land full of escapists.

The man speaks the truth.

[Ned]

I told my wife I want to move to Smithers. Escapist move? Absolutely. But at least I won't have to deal with the Whistler ilk and all it brings forth into places such as this. Put that on the mirror and snort it... boy.

[LeeLau]

Originally posted by Ned
Aside from a few good people I know who've lived in Whistler for 15+ years, why is that when I come across people who live there I think they seem completely out of touch? Is it the lack of honest days spent in the workplace? Is it all the time examining one's nostril through a mirror on a table? No, it's just a la-la land full of escapists.

He's just trying to get a rise out of you ned. Whistler is barely real though; gotta agree with that. Lucky we know scroungly old locals there.

[thatgirl]

thanks for the info, LeeLau and CraigH, are there any more trails that go farther up, say, to CBC?

[EaTDuRRRT]

Originally posted by sanrensho
Maybe you didn't intend to propagate the notion that people should do nothing. If so, you should reread your post.

If a land manager approached you and asked about the sustainability of mtb trails in a park area, do you say:

a) Trail erosion is inevitable,
b) More bike traffic is inevitable and
c) It isn't realistic to expect bikers to participate in trail days.

Essentially, that's what you wrote. Anyways, I'm guessing that you can see my point.;)

ok first off, trail erosion is inevitable
secondly, increased traffic is inevitable and thridly, the point I was making about trail days is that unfortunately not all riders will be able to participate NOT that they shouldn't be expected to help out in trail days...there is a distinction there... I highly encourage everyone to take advantage for trail days so please dont get me wrong...

Also, I'm as concerned as you are with these issues, but unofrtunately I dont have the magical answers to fix them. I'm just putting forward the problems the north shore is facing with the increased popularity of freeriding. I'm not saying that nothing should be done, but I'm saying that these problems exist and need solutions.

[LeeLau]

Originally posted by Zedbra
The man speaks the truth.

Squamish will be whistler with trucks in 10 - 15 years. But I still want to make tons of money out of it if I can. Were you OK after the flooding?

[CraigH]

Originally posted by LeeLau
I wish I could tell you something concrete. I know that Cypress is interested in the concept and so is Seymour but like dave said; there's a ton of paperwork to be done on that.

Sounds like it is time for Intrawest to buy one of the local ski hills and get something happening!

[flattire]

SO...when I own your slow ass on the way down (and I would) do I pretend that because I hate climbs that I am not a mountain biker? Should I make motorbike noises as I whup your ass? I'm confused Mr. I-Climb-so-I-Rule.

If you hate and dont climb then your not so much a mountianbiker, your more a downhiller. You should try to ride up a technical, steep, rugged slope, it takes a lot of skill and is one of many true components of mountainbiking, i think alot of bikers are just too focussed on DH and hucking. Personally, I pride myself in being an all-around skilled mountainbiker; getting up the hill and down. But I am guilty of shuttling too, not all the time though. I'd like to see the ol' hill climbing comps make a comeback...

[CraigH]

Originally posted by thatgirl
thanks for the info, LeeLau and CraigH, are there any more trails that go farther up, say, to CBC?

Not that I know of. Sorry.

Head over to Fromme, the gravel road goes all the way up to the ski hill.

For Cypress, you can climb up the BLT, but I heard that there is a ton of trees down on it right now due to the recent wind storms.

[Ned]

Originally posted by LeeLau
He's just trying to get a rise out of you ned. Whistler is barely real though; gotta agree with that. Lucky we know scroungly old locals there.

No rise out of me to be perfectly honest. Just the fly on the wall making comments about the Matrix of Whistler and how people get so caught up in it as the place to be.

[LeeLau]

Originally posted by thatgirl
thanks for the info, LeeLau and CraigH, are there any more trails that go farther up, say, to CBC?

Not biking trails unfortunately.

[parts]

Originally posted by Ned
Aside from a few good people I know who've lived in Whistler for 15+ years, why is that when I come across people who live there I think they seem completely out of touch? Is it the lack of honest days spent in the workplace? Is it all the time examining one's nostril through a mirror on a table? No, it's just a la-la land full of escapists.


It's a disease & it's real. Every time I've lived up there, anything South of Function immediately ceased to exist & those two twin towers became the only reality that mattered. There are worse ways to exist , although the balance of a decent job and the locals as my backyard aren't too shabby either.

[Zedbra]

Originally posted by LeeLau
Squamish will be whistler with trucks in 10 - 15 years. But I still want to make tons of money out of it if I can. Were you OK after the flooding?

Ya, but it was too close for comfort. I was on standby evacuation. I live about 6 blocks from the elevated dyke in Brackendale, and the flood water was only aboutg 6' from the top (no NSMB ruler). On the back edge of the dyke the water wa leaking through quite abit, as it was built more for a retaining wall to keep tourists out of the eagle breeding grounds more than a river deractor.

People are seriously wanting answers as to why the flood gates weren't opened earlier.

[Smoke]

Let's go back to the part where everyone was bitching. I had chores to do today and missed out on the name calling.

Who was the stupid sonofabitch who said that shuttling makes it easy?

C'mon.....let's do the 6 runs. Full height--top of CBC to sea level.

I dare you.

But you won't because you can't.
And because you can't you have to call down those people who choose to enjoy the sport in a different way than yourself.

Weak.

The real factor on trail erosion is bad technique. Skinny tires rip the shit out of a trail when they're locked up. Fat tires leave no trace when they roll smooth. Bikes don't kill trails, people do.

[Sharon]

Originally posted by bullit_kid
i know A LOT of kids who ride up grouse to get to the awesome trails, they wont ride up seymour because the trails are so easy and poorly maintained ( yes this is changing i hope )

The trails on Seymour are poorly maintained?

The trails on Seymour are more heavily maintained then the trails on Fromme.

The difference is, the trails on Seymour are more heavily ridden then the trails on Fromme.

You don't hear any where NEAR as much bitching about the trail conditions on Fromme as on Seymour.

hmmm wonder why that is...

( actually the trails on Fromme Suck, stay away)

[Sharon]

A local bike park would be the best thing to happen to the local trails.

Grouse -

I've heard conflicting things regarding a bike park on Grouse from they want one, to they prefer to cater to the busses. Cheaper and easier for them. Plus, they would want the mountain bikers to stay on the top of the mountain afterwards and drink. Most riders will do their last run on Fromme.

Seymour -

Parks will never allow it. Too many hiker trails that could be poached by bikers and again, the last run will be down the mountain.

Cypress -

Its in the long term plan. The terrain is supposed to be better, its rockier, drier and gets more sun on the west side. The most likely area will be where the new chair is going in for the Olympic snowboard events. People will also end up staying at the top since the trails that are there will probably be gone in the next 10-20 years if BPP has their way.

[Bryce]

Originally posted by Smoke
C'mon.....let's do the 6 runs. Full height--top of CBC to sea level. I dare you. But you won't because you can't.


XCers often think that DH is just sitting on your bike (and for some it is I guess). DH is hard if you give 'er, it uses upper and lower body muscles. Try sprinting a 55 lb bike out of a corner and you'll start to understand. Its basically interval training.

When they did tests on athletes to see who puts out the greatest effort in competition, it wasn't roadies or soccer players or marathon runners, it was motocrossers.

What was the question?

[FullMonty]

I shuttled Seymour today, and I rode up Fromme on Saturday. The guys I was riding with in the van up Seymour asked whether it was possible to do this on Fromme ('Shore neophytes they were,) I said no, and they said "well, that hill sucks."

I said: "Yeah, it does." ;)

[sanrensho]

Originally posted by Bryce
When they did tests on athletes to see who puts out the greatest effort in competition, it wasn't roadies or soccer players or marathon runners, it was motocrossers.

I'd like to see some hard data to back this up. How did they measure effort, as wattage or calories burned? [Edit] As a point of reference, a top-level pro in the TDF burns upwards of 5,000 calories per day over the course of a 3-week competition.

Anyways, you're completely missing the point. The original post was about what could be done to save trails from further erosion. The net effect of your post is simply to stir up hatred between XC and downhill camps.

[The_Real_Yeti]

id rather hike than ride up that whole hill

[sanrensho]

Originally posted by EaTDuRRRT
Also, I'm as concerned as you are with these issues, but unofrtunately I dont have the magical answers to fix them. I'm just putting forward the problems the north shore is facing with the increased popularity of freeriding. I'm not saying that nothing should be done, but I'm saying that these problems exist and need solutions.

You should be commended for clarifying your position, as well as for showing interest in getting involved with the NSMBA.

The fact is that nobody has any magical answers, there are just a lot of people who think they know the right answer, and a few who don't care. However, some people are certainly more informed than others, and by getting involved with the NSMBA you will probably gain a different perspective on these issues.

[The_Real_Yeti]

Originally posted by Smoke
Let's go back to the part where everyone was bitching. I had chores to do today and missed out on the name calling.

Who was the stupid sonofabitch who said that shuttling makes it easy?

C'mon.....let's do the 6 runs. Full height--top of CBC to sea level.

I dare you.

But you won't because you can't.
And because you can't you have to call down those people who choose to enjoy the sport in a different way than yourself.

Weak.

The real factor on trail erosion is bad technique. Skinny tires rip the shit out of a trail when they're locked up. Fat tires leave no trace when they roll smooth. Bikes don't kill trails, people do.

Exactly i like your thinkin!

[sanrensho]

Originally posted by thatgirl
Now, I would actually like to ride UP on my days off, but I have seen those poor people pedalling up the road and almost getting clipped by cars..not my idea of fun. I am wondering if there is another way to get to the top without running the risk of being murdered by a car.

In reality, it is much safer to bike the road up Mt. Seymour than it is to ride almost any intersection or any other well-traveled road. It is also much safer riding up in numbers, as you are more visible and it becomes clearer to drivers that you have the right of way in your lane. Always establish eye contact if possible, and let them know that you aware that they are coming up behind you.
;)

[the flying moose]

I shuttle up Seymour because I can.
I pedal up Fromme because I have to.
What mtn do i choose to ride? Fromme.
Why? because i always have a better ride because i earned it.
Would i shuttle Fromme if given the chance? Hell no.

[c2skyrida]

Originally posted by flattire
If you hate and dont climb then your not so much a mountianbiker, your more a downhiller. You should try to ride up a technical, steep, rugged slope, it takes a lot of skill and is one of many true components of mountainbiking, i think alot of bikers are just too focussed on DH and hucking. Personally, I pride myself in being an all-around skilled mountainbiker; getting up the hill and down. But I am guilty of shuttling too, not all the time though. I'd like to see the ol' hill climbing comps make a comeback...

I've climbed more clicks here than some would care to know. I just happen to prefer DH riding. Maybe it was years spent in the saddle on cross country missions, but I simply enjoy raging downhill and I don't need to justify it to anyone who can't understand it.

[c2skyrida]

Originally posted by Ned
Aside from a few good people I know who've lived in Whistler for 15+ years, why is that when I come across people who live there I think they seem completely out of touch? Is it the lack of honest days spent in the workplace? Is it all the time examining one's nostril through a mirror on a table? No, it's just a la-la land full of escapists.

Better than a smog-filled sh*thole full of yuppies tryin to claw there way up over their supposed friends bodies all for the sake of the mighty dollar. No mirrors in this house that ain't for combing your hair in. Try Surrey for the other kind blind man.

[c2skyrida]

Originally posted by Zedbra
The man speaks the truth.

Squampton...wannabe Whistler with a bonus of redneck loggers and deviant kids with nothing better to do than beat up each other and/or tourists...yippee...can I move to Garabaldi How-Highlands? Or Crackendale? Those of us that do...live in Whistle. Those of us who can't...commute from Squampton.

[sanrensho]

Originally posted by c2skyrida
I've climbed more clicks here than some would care to know. I just happen to prefer DH riding. Maybe it was years spent in the saddle on cross country missions, but I simply enjoy raging downhill and I don't need to justify it to anyone who can't understand it.

Then why did you feel the need to justify it in the above post?:D

[white ri0t]

More importantly: earn the right to learn where the trails are.

[Universe]

Originally posted by c2skyrida
I've climbed more clicks here than some would care to know. I just happen to prefer DH riding. Maybe it was years spent in the saddle on cross country missions, but I simply enjoy raging downhill and I don't need to justify it to anyone who can't understand it.

Forbidden to 2 Shieks. I'll back the man up on this claim. Some people have done more climbing than the 'bitchers' ever will.

[synchro]

Originally posted by Mulletron
Why not enjoy your bike and how you choose to ride it instead of ranting about how someone else chooses to ride theirs.

Really, it isn't anyone's business but your own when it comes to how you ride.

Sometimes I shuttle. Sometimes I climb. Sometimes I ride urban. All the time it really doesn't concern you, and nobody is in any sort of position to make any judgement or assumptions based on that.

I also have a long travel bike. I also have a small travel hard tail. They say nothing about my skill level at all, but they do say that I enjoy bikes and riding them. Thats all that matters.

Either that or I could "accidently" gong with a shovel all the riders that never do any trail maintenance. That would definitley free up the trails for true riders.

no work = no ride

[synchro]

Originally posted by TylerDurden
Shuttle-only folk remind of the blue-hairs that use the golf carts to get to their aerogate in the airport.

If you're too fat, lazy or unmotivated to climb up, then you're not ready for mountain biking.

Gold!

[synchro]

Originally posted by c2skyrida
Squampton...wannabe Whistler with a bonus of redneck loggers and deviant kids with nothing better to do than beat up each other and/or tourists...yippee...can I move to Garabaldi How-Highlands? Or Crackendale? Those of us that do...live in Whistle. Those of us who can't...commute from Squampton.

And you wonder why we all love you so much. Come on bro, there's good people livin in Squamish, no need to slag their home.

[TylerDurden]

c2sky, you're such as hater - you deserve a MX bike and a white tank top with a stain from your Skoal wad. Why pedal when you can twist a throttle?

Smoke - how's about not riding down the trail 6 times in a row and climbing up instead? You, even with your fatty tires, will have less impact on our trail system. Just ride up and down once, and end it. If you're not tired enough at the bottom, try climbing in a harder gear next time you head up to CBC or starting the ride from you house.

Ever notice you never see CovePeelers climbing up? I mean, I see 14lb Banshee frames on the climbs, but not Peelers. Are Cove's customers the Shore's #1 source of shuttle-only riders?

[cam@nsmb.com]

Originally posted by spleen
I know this is going to ruffle a few feathers but after reading all the responses to the whole shuttling issue on Seymour I had to chime in.

Ride your bike up the hill!

Novell concept I know - one that is probably lost on the younger generation, but one that would solve a lot of problems on the local hills. Reduced traffic, reduced parking issues, reduced pollution, reduced stress on the trails, even reduced waist-lines!

Instead of bragging about 6 runs down Neds, brag about how you climbed up to CBC and passed a bunch of riders on big bikes (huffing and puffing from lack of fitness and trying to pedal a 45lb bike through singletrack) on the way down.

Ride your bike up, earn your downhill - who knows it might help you win a downhill race (with the increased fitness) or hell - you might even live longer.

If your bike is to big and heavy to ride up maybe it is time to stop using the long travel, big hit bikes to cover for lack of skill and finese. Too many riders today believe that you have to have a triple clamp fork and 8 inches of rear travel to ride the shore.

I wonder how far off is the day that the parks and GVRD finally figure out that if they ban ALL shuttling on the mountains it will greatly cut down on the amount damage that is done to the trails!?!

As the cool kids say - werd.

I'm not sure why everyone is getting so upset about you stating your opinion. What a boring world it would be if we all kept our opinions to ourselves - particularly when we knew others are going to disagree with us.

I don't agree with everything you said - big travel bikes making up for skill etc - but I too believe the world would be a better place and riding would be more fun if nobody shuttled.

I too shuttle sometimes and other times I start out at home and ride to the trailhead. I'm working towards more climbing and less shuttling though and it's always more satisfying to finish a ride when you have done all the work and earned that beer.

[Ned]

Originally posted by c2skyrida
Better than a smog-filled sh*thole full of yuppies tryin to claw there way up over their supposed friends bodies all for the sake of the mighty dollar. No mirrors in this house that ain't for combing your hair in. Try Surrey for the other kind blind man.

It appears you've got it ALL figured out. Now run to the toilet and comb your hair.

[Putty]

Originally posted by Ned
It appears you've got it ALL figured out. Now run to the toilet and comb your hair.

...and check your shoulder, cause some dandruff might be hiding there.

[corey@nsmb.com]

Originally posted by synchro
Either that or I could "accidently" gong with a shovel all the riders that never do any trail maintenance. That would definitley free up the trails for true riders.

no work = no ride

Woah, hold the phone man! I never said a thing in regards to trail work and maintenance!!

I think its fricken unreal the way guys like you dedicate yourselfs to the trails and I couldn't be any more grateful, or in favor of "shovelling" those that take it for granted. :)

[c2skyrida]

Originally posted by synchro
And you wonder why we all love you so much. Come on bro, there's good people livin in Squamish, no need to slag their home.

Actually...I have nothing against Squampton. I just get a little sick of the Whistler bashing on here. There are some narrow minds here that seem that Whistler is nothing but coke sniffing punks and wealthy vacation home-owners. That is such bullsh*t! WORCA (Whistler Off-Road Cycling Association) gets more people out for its events (riding, trail building) than any other cycling association in the province! That should tell you how many committed, decent people live here. We just don't have as high a profile as the attitude-bringing short-timers who are so visible in the Village.

[c2skyrida]

Originally posted by sanrensho
Then why did you feel the need to justify it in the above post?:D

To justify it would have been to list in detail the climbs I have done over the years and the multi-year evolution of biking and bike technology that gradually altered my style of riding. I told you - I ain't going to do that! :rolleyes:

[c2skyrida]

Originally posted by Super8
Forbidden to 2 Shieks. I'll back the man up on this claim. Some people have done more climbing than the 'bitchers' ever will.

So true bro - I'd love to hear the Fromme-climbing whiners attempt the pipeline to Nymph, to Bears Bait, to Branch 21 climb. Then break for a snack - and climb up Forbidden! Followed by a rager down the Shieks and all the way back to town. Oh yes...some k's involved there as you well know!

[synchro]

Originally posted by Mulletron
Woah, hold the phone man! I never said a thing in regards to trail work and maintenance!!

I think its fricken unreal the way guys like you dedicate yourselfs to the trails and I couldn't be any more grateful, or in favor of "shovelling" those that take it for granted. :)

lol - just being me and kidding. I would never purposely hurt somebody that refused to help out with trail work. It would be a real shame though if I happened to be holding my chainsaw while it was running full bore and I turned around and accidently hit someone standing around watching me work.

[corey@nsmb.com]

Originally posted by synchro
lol - just being me and kidding. I would never purposely hurt somebody that refused to help out with trail work. It would be a real shame though if I happened to be holding my chainsaw while it was running full bore and I turned around and accidently hit someone standing around watching me work.

:lol:, accidents happen! :eek: ;)

[LeeLau]

Originally posted by c2skyrida
So true bro - I'd love to hear the Fromme-climbing whiners attempt the pipeline to Nymph, to Bears Bait, to Branch 21 climb. Then break for a snack - and climb up Forbidden! Followed by a rager down the Shieks and all the way back to town. Oh yes...some k's involved there as you well know!

That sounds like fun. Can it be shuttled? Pls post directions.

[c2skyrida]

Originally posted by LeeLau
That sounds like fun. Can it be shuttled? Pls post directions.

Sure...first, hop on a ferry, then head north to Cumberland. Stop at the Riding Fool Hostel and get settled into a nice cozy room. Ask your friendly neighbourhood Cumberland riders (downstairs in the shop - Dodge City Cycles) how to find Forbidden Plateau. Drive up the old ski hill access road, unload your bikes, and comment..."wow, that was a long drive compared to Seymour. I'm sure glad that I didn't ride it or I'd be too bagged to enjoy the deadly DH offerings I'm about to sample". Hop on, ride, enjoy. Repeat - because with a shuttle, you can! :D

[Ned]

Narrow mind speaking here... Work much?

[c2skyrida]

Originally posted by Ned
Narrow mind speaking here... Work much?

I'm working right now. Working out why you, and so many others, love to slag Whistlerites when your own (proverbial) backyard is so bad. Can't we all just get along??

[LeeLau]

Originally posted by c2skyrida
Sure...first, hop on a ferry, then head north to Cumberland. Stop at the Riding Fool Hostel and get settled into a nice cozy room. Ask your friendly neighbourhood Cumberland riders (downstairs in the shop - Dodge City Cycles) how to find Forbidden Plateau. Drive up the old ski hill access road, unload your bikes, and comment..."wow, that was a long drive compared to Seymour. I'm sure glad that I didn't ride it or I'd be too bagged to enjoy the deadly DH offerings I'm about to sample". Hop on, ride, enjoy. Repeat - because with a shuttle, you can! :D

one of my old buds Mitch diem moved out to Mt Washington and is now in charge of the biking trails in that area. I'm going out there in summer to check it out; sounds like fun. Mitch is dh/xc but I bet he'll make me ride up the whole way.

[c2skyrida]

Originally posted by LeeLau
one of my old buds Mitch diem moved out to Mt Washington and is now in charge of the biking trails in that area. I'm going out there in summer to check it out; sounds like fun. Mitch is dh/xc but I bet he'll make me ride up the whole way.

Lee - you'll love the riding up there. They're (Mt Washington) really stoked on emulating the Whistler Bike Park (albeit on a much smaller scale) and the trails around the Comox Valley rip. A good mix of XC/DH, you have to earn your DH on most routes!

[LeeLau]

Originally posted by c2skyrida
Lee - you'll love the riding up there. They're (Mt Washington) really stoked on emulating the Whistler Bike Park (albeit on a much smaller scale) and the trails around the Comox Valley rip. A good mix of XC/DH, you have to earn your DH on most routes!

I've heard nothing but good about Comox riding. I've been up and down the island but not in the valley. Can you hear snow guns yet? God I can't wait to get out on the sticks

[Ned]

Just feeding you some of your own ilk to see how you like it. That's all. And just to keep you honest C2S, you don't even know where my backyard is or what it entails. No sweat, it's every bit as much of a rat race you're thinking it is... and then some.

BTW, I'm glad you're working and not gazing into the glass on such a fine day. I watched my buddy (from Whistler BTW) hop in his truck and turn left out of my barrio destined for 7 weeks Baja.... the prick :D

[c2skyrida]

Originally posted by Ned
Just feeding you some of your own ilk to see how you like it. That's all. And just to keep you honest C2S, you don't even know where my backyard is or what it entails. No sweat, it's every bit as much of a rat race you're thinking it is... and then some.

BTW, I'm glad you're working and not gazing into the glass on such a fine day. I watched my buddy (from Whistler BTW) hop in his truck and turn left out of my barrio destined for 7 weeks Baja.... the prick :D

;) I knew you ware decent guy deep down...about 6 feet down! lmfao.

Baja eh? I'd kill to be him right now...bitter cold, no snow, shoulder season sucks in Whistler (its not all a fairy tale as you know too well!). Mexico....aaahhh.

[c2skyrida]

Originally posted by LeeLau
I've heard nothing but good about Comox riding. I've been up and down the island but not in the valley. Can you hear snow guns yet? God I can't wait to get out on the sticks

They're making snow right now (for last 2 weeks) up on the 'Comb in the terrain park and on the glacier ski-out. Some snowmaking on Whistler on upper and lower Olympic too - but no substitute for the real thing. I can't wait to break out the sticks on the 27th!:clap:

[LeeLau]

Originally posted by c2skyrida
;) I knew you ware decent guy deep down...about 6 feet down! lmfao.

Baja eh? I'd kill to be him right now...bitter cold, no snow, shoulder season sucks in Whistler (its not all a fairy tale as you know too well!). Mexico....aaahhh.

You can get from Whistler to San Fran in about 18 hours drive. Ensenada is another 11 hours. There are surf spots south of Rosario (and an awesome bakery) all along the coast on Pacific side but the water is getting cold this time of the year

[Ned]

:idea: Maybe I should go steal his plane... :idea:

[c2skyrida]

Originally posted by LeeLau
You can get from Whistler to San Fran in about 18 hours drive. Ensenada is another 11 hours. There are surf spots south of Rosario (and an awesome bakery) all along the coast on Pacific side but the water is getting cold this time of the year

**Jeep Liberty fires up**

Ensenada is great - I love the fact you can drive to some place that cool that is that close to the border. Just shut your eyes through Tijauna and life is good!

[jro]

Originally posted by c2skyrida
That is such bullsh*t! WORCA (Whistler Off-Road Cycling Association) gets more people out for its events (riding, trail building) than any other cycling association in the province! That should tell you how many committed, decent people live here.

I would go too with all the coke you guys have!

[c2skyrida]

Originally posted by jro
I would go too with all the coke you guys have!

:lol: It helps when driving in nails bare-handed and building dirt jumps with a plastic spoon.

[jro]

Originally posted by c2skyrida
:lol: It helps when driving in nails bare-handed and building dirt jumps with a plastic spoon.

Nothing like good ol mind assisting work ARGGGGGG !!!

[Sharon]

Originally posted by c2skyrida
WORCA (Whistler Off-Road Cycling Association) gets more people out for its events (riding, trail building) than any other cycling association in the province! That should tell you how many committed, decent people live here. We just don't have as high a profile as the attitude-bringing short-timers who are so visible in the Village.

You are lucky with WORCA, but I hear they don't get a very good turn out on the trail days. the Twoonie turnout can't be beat!

I guess it figures since there are no trails at Whistler except the bike park...

We showed our gratitude to Chris with a box of Italian wine!

We'll be comfortably numb again this Saturday, hopefully... Interested? Dress warm...

[c2skyrida]

Originally posted by Sharon
You are lucky with WORCA, but I hear they don't get a very good turn out on the trail days. the Twoonie turnout can't be beat!

I guess it figures since there are no trails at Whistler except the bike park...

We showed our gratitude to Chris with a box of Italian wine!

We'll be comfortably numb again this Saturday, hopefully... Interested? Dress warm...

Can I bring a bobcat and a fat bag of coke? :D

[Sharon]

Originally posted by c2skyrida
Can I bring a bobcat and a fat bag of coke? :D

I'd love to see the bobcat on some of those rock faces!

[c2skyrida]

Originally posted by Sharon
I'd love to see the bobcat on some of those rock faces!
**Confession**

Never actually ridden it (turning my head away in shame). I should get out and do more - I freely admit that I ride on the hard work of others and its been too long since I earned my ride with some dirt movin' and trail buildin'

[dirty deeds]

A minimum of 1 hour of trail or advocacy work per 4 hours riding the trails should be the rule of thumb.

I figure my 45 hours trail work this past 6 months for 180 trail riding time is just enough for a C letter grade.

Bull shitting in the internet and riding uphill counts for nothing.

For anyone whose trail work bank account is overdrawn, now is the season to get a healthy balance saved for next year.

[Duncan]

Originally posted by dirty deeds
A minimum of 1 hour of trail or advocacy work per 4 hours riding the trails should be the rule of thumb.

I figure my 45 hours trail work this past 6 months for 180 trail riding time is just enough for a C letter grade.

Bull shitting in the internet and riding uphill counts for nothing.

For anyone whose trail work bank account is overdrawn, now is the season to get a healthy balance saved for next year.

Amen! Just think ... a "magic solution" would be within reach if people focussed as much effort on trailwork and advocacy as they do pissing, moaning and strutting their attitudes here.

(OKAY, I'm off to go and bitch on another on-line forum. I hereby also confess to not doing enough trailwork). D.

[ryan]

Mountain biking in genreal (in my opinion) is based around the principles of excercise and enjoyment.
-people rag on the XC guys for being uptight and having no fun
-people rag on the shuttlers and freeriders for being lazy and not putting any effort in.

SO one group is riding for the purpose of fun and the other is riding for the purpose of excercise. Are either of them in the right or the wrong? No, different people just get different things out of our sport.

Now allow me to make a mockery of myself - (shuttling Bby :lol: )

It's a beautiful sunny day and i think i'd like to ride burnaby mtn. this afternoon. I just got home from school, SFU, which i walk to. I've already hiked up the hill and down the hill today, 2 hours of solid excercise. Now as much as i turn my nose at multiple speed runs on my precious mountain... I don't need or want to climb that darn hill again today (Afterall, i have commute it 3 more times this week), and i'd much rather just ride down, and enjoy myself. Shuttling looks mighty attractive.

NOTE- Seeing as how i don't have a car and my tires are too wide for the bus, i'll likely be riding up anyways ;).

shuttling/trailwork balance is a worthwhile discussion, arguing about who should excercise to earn their DH is just stupid.

[corey@nsmb.com]

The politics of how you choose to ride on any given day have no appeal to me.

I don't see the logic in arguing about it, and I don't see how anyone is justified in drawing conclusions/assumptions about people based on how they select to ride, as I said, on any given day.

How can you mock, frown or cast attitude as a truck going up for a shuttle just because you are climbing that day? You don't know who is driving and riding, you don't know if they did an epic XC the day before or a long slow grunt up their favorite fireroad. You also don't know if they were busy coaching their kids soccer team in the morning, and have a 2 hour window before they have to be taking their kids to hockey. And the reality of it is, it isn't anyones business, no matter how old-school, new-school or tied to the mountain that you think you are.

No matter which way we choose to ride, there is going to be trail damage.

The energy should not be directed at "how" you ride, it should be towards finding solutions to make the inevitable increased rider volume sustainable. You can argue that lobbying against shuttles might be a solution, but the reality is, it won't go away...Maybe it will get displaced at some hot spots, but it will always exist.

We can't stop the growth of our sport. It is just too much fun to not catch on among more people, and nobody can argue about that. Volume is inevitable.

Happy Trails. :)

[Lady Gravity]

Originally posted by ryan
NOTE- Seeing as how i don't have a car and my tires are too wide for the bus, i'll likely be riding up anyways ;).

are you sure? what are you running..3.0's? my 2.6/2.8 combo fits fine (second run baby ;))

[Putty]

Originally posted by dirty deeds
A minimum of 1 hour of trail or advocacy work per 4 hours riding the trails should be the rule of thumb.


Bullshit. Even on trail days, you get people that dump rocks into organic mud and call it filling in holes. It's not everyone's cup of tea. If every moron on their bike starts maintaining and advocating, we won't have a trail left open that we want to ride on.

NOT EVERY ONE SHOULD DO TRAIL WORK.

PEOPLE WHO DO TRAIL WORK HAVE NO SPECIAL RIGHTS ON THE TRAIL, AND ARE NOT ABOVE THE LAW.

[counterpoint]

oh now we're going into trail work...how typical. Putty's right. Some people love to do trail work and it makes them feel good. Other people love to hike up because that makes them feel good. Those people who really love it don't look down on others for not doing it. I respect the guy that silently goes out and gets satisfaction at building a jump or working on a trail than those that go out for trail day and then lamblast others for not "doing their part".

[Putty]

Originally posted by counterpoint
oh now we're going into trail work...how typical. Putty's right. Some people love to do trail work and it makes them feel good. Other people love to hike up because that makes them feel good. Those people who really love it don't look down on others for not doing it. I respect the guy that silently goes out and gets satisfaction at building a jump or working on a trail than those that go out for trail day and then lamblast others for not "doing their part".

well said. I especially like the part where you say "Putty's right"

:D

[c2skyrida]

:o What a dead thread. Shut up and ride, hike, build, complain (silently), or start a new thread entitled "Confused people who like to argue the same points over and over in a cyclical pattern"

[Duncan]

The people most deserving of respect are those who ride, look around. and then go home and complain about trails being too easy, too poorly maintained and having decrepit stunts. Now THAT stratospheric level of complaining takes REAL BALLS! D.

[dirty deeds]

Originally posted by putty
Bullshit. Even on trail days, you get people that dump rocks into organic mud and call it filling in holes. It's not everyone's cup of tea. If every moron on their bike starts maintaining and advocating, we won't have a trail left open that we want to ride on.

NOT EVERY ONE SHOULD DO TRAIL WORK.

PEOPLE WHO DO TRAIL WORK HAVE NO SPECIAL RIGHTS ON THE TRAIL, AND ARE NOT ABOVE THE LAW.

I didn't say anything about special rights for the workers.

I do beleive though that everyone who rides the trails should give back in some fashion.

Hopefully the percentage of 'morons' who can't learn some trail building techniques or join and help out NSMBA in some fashion is pretty low.

[Putty]

Originally posted by dirty deeds
I didn't say anything about special rights for the workers.

I do beleive though that everyone who rides the trails should give back in some fashion.

Hopefully the percentage of 'morons' who can't learn some trail building techniques or join and help out NSMBA in some fashion is pretty low.

I know you didn't I was just making a general observation.

People should give back I agree, but it may have to be a financial pay back.

People are starting to realize that trails don't build and maintain themselves, but the morons are still out there. Trust me.

I wasn't trying to come down on you DD, it's just this shit's been beat to death and we are no closer to solving anything.

[dirty deeds]

Originally posted by putty
it's just this shit's been beat to death and we are no closer to solving anything.

What else is there to do all day?

May as well beat shit as we sit in our little offices pining for a ride.

[Putty]

Originally posted by dirty deeds
What else is there to do all day?

May as well beat shit as we sit in our little offices pining for a ride.

you too eh?

[FlipFantasia]

Originally posted by jro
I would go too with all the coke you guys have!
no way, it's all the kegs they get for the apres! there weren't too many loonie races I left sober! best way to get food and drunk for 2 bucks is to do the loonie races all summer!

[Desloc]

Why not just charge all riders for a yearly Shore Pass... say $120/year for the 3 hills.

Everyone purchases a pass that costs $60 the first year($120 the years after). That pass will be scanable/writable. Trail days for specific runs are scheduled regularly. Hours put in working on the trails are recorded on your card and financially deducted on you next season's Shore Pass to a max of 75%.


Des

[Zedbra]

Originally posted by c2skyrida
Squampton...wannabe Whistler with a bonus of redneck loggers and deviant kids with nothing better to do than beat up each other and/or tourists...yippee...can I move to Garabaldi How-Highlands? Or Crackendale? Those of us that do...live in Whistle. Those of us who can't...commute from Squampton.

The commute takes less time than you to dig yourself out of your ego well.

Whistler year round population: 3500
During ski season: 7-10,000.

Two whore houses, many escort services, coke swagging Aussies and 4 roomates to pay $1500/month for a 20 year old stinky basement suite.

Who wouldn't WANT to be YOU

[Jamie]

Two whore houses, many escort services, coke swagging Aussies and 4 roomates to pay $1500/month for a 20 year old stinky basement suite.

But there is no Cocaine problem in Squamish ????? Riiiiiggghhtttt.
You haven't lived there long have you, that or you got your head in the sand. It is easier for people(highschool kids even)to get cocaine, and crystal meth, than it is to get a case of beer. I wasn't part of that type of scene, but it was pretty easy to catch on. That said, Squamish is a great place to live, so is Whistler,if you have access to large quantities of $$$$$.

[KOW49]

Originally posted by Req
But then again, spleen makes the point that it will help ensure we'll have a place to ride in years to come.
i agree

[c2skyrida]

Originally posted by Zedbra
The commute takes less time than you to dig yourself out of your ego well.

Whistler year round population: 3500
During ski season: 7-10,000.

Two whore houses, many escort services, coke swagging Aussies and 4 roomates to pay $1500/month for a 20 year old stinky basement suite.

Who wouldn't WANT to be YOU

Two whore houses = what's wrong with that?
Escort Services = ditto?
Aussies (coked up or not) = always good to get a deal on stuff when they have to leave town.
4 roomates = not me. Just me, my old lady, and my bike and skis.

Who wouldn't want to be me? Anyone who doesn't enjoy the best outdoor recreational access in North America, anyone who doesn't like the best lift-accessed bike park anywhere, and anyone who, in the immortal words of Derek Zoolander, can't stand being so ridiculously, ridiculously, good-looking!

[Ned]

Me. Comparatively speaking, I like my life as a little lawn jockey horse hitching post.

Incidentally, how big was your property tax bill this year? Or do you own your place of residence?

[corey@nsmb.com]

Hi-Jack.

Lets try to keep this one on topic gentleman.

[c2skyrida]

Originally posted by Ned
Me. Comparatively speaking, I like my life as a little lawn jockey horse hitching post.

Incidentally, how big was your property tax bill this year? Or do you own your place of residence?

Well done. You've exposed the achilles heel of Whistler living - property taxes. No secret there, it costs a lot to live here. I'm far from wealthy but I make a go of it because the lifestyle is worth it to me. I fully understand that it is too much for most people, however that is a personal decision. We make sacrifices to live here (space, storage, etc.), however I wouldn't trade cheaper cost of living to see my neighborhood on the news nightly for another sick crime (not implying yours is - but lets face it, Van and its suburbs are pretty scary for a lot of people not used to gangs, teen violence, assualts, property crime, squeegee "kids" with attitude, heroin junkies, etc.). My wife came here from South Africa and has no desire to ever again expose herself to that type of sh*t on a daily basis. Life is too short to deal with the scum that haunt the city.

[c2skyrida]

Originally posted by Mulletron
Hi-Jack.

Lets try to keep this one on topic gentleman.

I tried - see earlier post. Had to answer a call-out though! :D

[synchro]

Originally posted by putty

NOT EVERY ONE SHOULD DO TRAIL WORK - agree

PEOPLE WHO DO TRAIL WORK ARE NOT ABOVE THE LAW - agree, and you've NEVER ridden a closed trail now have you my friend.

PEOPLE WHO DO TRAIL WORK HAVE NO SPECIAL RIGHTS ON THE TRAIL - somewhat disagree. If a builder is putting in a lot of hours on the mountain I am willing to turn a blind eye to the odd poach here or there. There are so few people maintaining that the odd poach by a regular builder won't matter. Hangman is a good example, right Lee?

However if you're not regular you shouldn't be riding at all, even if you are a builder.

[c2skyrida]

Originally posted by synchro
[QUOTE]Originally posted by putty
QUOTE]

However if you're not regular you shouldn't be riding at all, even if you are a builder.

I'm regular...a high fibre diet and coffee helps to drop the kids off at the pool! :D

[Ned]

OK, we can recant this Mulletron. No biggie to me, C2S is an interesting dude in some ways but simple questions deserve simple answers and not the fast talkin' car salesman stuff.

So, C2S, with your property tax bill (assuming you own right? original question), have you figured out the $$ per 1000ft of descending in the park (minus pass cost of course) vs saaay... something like Pemby? Or Squish for that matter?

Where I live, locally it's a complete rip off on the vertical basis but , mind you, I don't live in Van or Nelson anymore and the financial bubble around here completely dwarfs Whistler.

Nelson was best bang for the vertical/taxation buck but blew ass for finding good solid people who wanted to work for real.

[trout]

Originally posted by c2skyrida
Who wouldn't want to be me?

I wouldn't. Whistler is just another ski hill, don't believe the hype.

Ride up
ride down
ride all over town
in a truck
on a bike
do whatever
the hell you like.

[c2skyrida]

I'm a renter. So assuming I descend about 1,000 feet per run, approx. 10 runs a day, times 10 days a month (avg.), I'm descending 100,000 feet p/month. Based on an avg. rent of $1000 for a 1-bdrm/studio, you are looking at a cent a foot. Throw in the winter - more vertical feet in a day easily, lots of hiking, non bike-park riding, a free family summer/winter seasons pass, it's good for me. I could live in Pemby - but forgetting vertical, consider the rising costs (not a lot cheaper than Whistler anymore!) 40 minute drive, same food costs, and lame-ass night life (the Pem-Ho!) and restaurants, not so great a deal. Squamish....if I wanted a traffic-filled commute with ample delays on a daily basis I'd live in the city. Add that to the dismal atmosphere in a town hard-hit economically in the last few years, some mindless teens smashing car windows nightly, and it is off the list.
I will pay a premium for convenience, atmosphere, no commute, good restaurants and activities, and the best in recreational opportunities.

[Ned]

Hope you can tuck some peso's away while you're living 'the life'.

I'll stick to working like a dog, it hasn't failed me so far.

[Putty]

Originally posted by c2skyrida
I could live in Pemby - but forgetting vertical, consider the rising costs (not a lot cheaper than Whistler anymore!) 40 minute drive, same food costs, and lame-ass night life (the Pem-Ho!)

sounds like you've never been to the street of dreams. my liver hates pemby.

[c2skyrida]

Street of Dreams :???: Sorry bro...I have done limited time in potato town, mostly just Pony Espresso, Wicked Wheel, and the 'Ho. The first two are good, the 'Ho sucks, and the Steakhouse sucked on my one and only visit.

[white ri0t]

Originally posted by putty
sounds like you've never been to the street of dreams. my liver hates pemby.

you guys don't know Pemby. I know pemby. That's right, class of 95.

[Putty]

the street of dreams is where all the old cove guys live. it used to be the party that never ends, now they only party on days that end with y, cause some of them have kids or something.

[c2skyrida]

Yeah...I don't even pretend to really "know" Pemby. I like small, but Pemby is just to small for me 'cause it lacks the amenities of Whistler. Of course, they do now have a golden arches....yipee. Not.

[FlipFantasia]

s2s, your comments on why you live in whistler, I concur.....and seeing how fast access can be cut off to pemby, or squamish, I'll live here, at least we know they'll always have to heli food in to keep the tourists happy ;) I had to drive down to squamish to work today, very glad I was going the opposite direction, holy nightmare, I don't know how people deal with over an hour and a half of driving per day.....plus, I can leave my door and be on trails in about 2 minutes...it rules....I had a good paying job with good hours when I lived in ontario, and it sucked...I'll gladly take the lower pay and higher rent to be here, because I'm happier with my life now, and that's the most impt thing, way more than money.....

[LeeLau]

How can you say that? How can you not miss the culture, nightlife and awesome vibe of TO?

Originally posted by FlipFantasia
s2s, your comments on why you live in whistler, I concur.....and seeing how fast access can be cut off to pemby, or squamish, I'll live here, at least we know they'll always have to heli food in to keep the tourists happy ;) I had to drive down to squamish to work today, very glad I was going the opposite direction, holy nightmare, I don't know how people deal with over an hour and a half of driving per day.....plus, I can leave my door and be on trails in about 2 minutes...it rules....I had a good paying job with good hours when I lived in ontario, and it sucked...I'll gladly take the lower pay and higher rent to be here, because I'm happier with my life now, and that's the most impt thing, way more than money.....

[T.Walker]

well since riding up the mtn, is super h-core. I guess we're all none super H-core:( ..............EXCEPT for Matt Ward! he owns you all in many X-treme ways:D

[FlipFantasia]

Originally posted by LeeLau
How can you say that? How can you not miss the culture, nightlife and awesome vibe of TO?
my parents live in st.catharines, I lived in peterborough, when I'd go home to visit I'd have maybe 30-45 minutes of agricultural area to drive through, then like 2.5 hours of suburbia the rest of the way with TO smack dab in the middle, and that's driving over 100km/h.......shuddder.....no culture or nightlife is worth that level of suburban nightmare in my mind! :) fields and fields and fields, of subdivisions of the same fricken house, but they let you choose your door colour!

to keep it on topic, I calculated my vertical in the bike park this summer, and I have a serious climbing debt compared to my vert. descended......but there are plenty of times I get home from a long day of work and just hop on the xc steed and burn up a thousand feet or so from my place up past the flank trail on ricks roost....it's good to get into a zone and just go......the fully rigid makes the return trip down on the trails a bit harder though! ;)

[c2skyrida]

Originally posted by FlipFantasia
s2s, your comments on why you live in whistler, I concur.....and seeing how fast access can be cut off to pemby, or squamish, I'll live here, at least we know they'll always have to heli food in to keep the tourists happy ;) I had to drive down to squamish to work today, very glad I was going the opposite direction, holy nightmare, I don't know how people deal with over an hour and a half of driving per day.....plus, I can leave my door and be on trails in about 2 minutes...it rules....I had a good paying job with good hours when I lived in ontario, and it sucked...I'll gladly take the lower pay and higher rent to be here, because I'm happier with my life now, and that's the most impt thing, way more than money.....

'Nuff said. ;)

[Zen]

As long as there is a road to drive on (Seymour, Cypress), I don't think shuttling is going to stop. As for the erosion of the trails, it will happen whether people are shuttling or hiking (and I am not just referring to the North Shore trails). All we can do is help maintain the trails by volunteering with trail maintenance, etc. Good on you if you hike up Seymour, Cypress, etc., for your ride, it is very rewarding in the end!:)

[Purecanadianhoney]

Originally posted by Mulletron
Why not enjoy your bike and how you choose to ride it instead of ranting about how someone else chooses to ride theirs.

Really, it isn't anyone's business but your own when it comes to how you ride.

Sometimes I shuttle. Sometimes I climb. Sometimes I ride urban. All the time it really doesn't concern you, and nobody is in any sort of position to make any judgement or assumptions based on that.




It IS other peoples business what you do and how you do it, especially when it comes to accessing public spaces. Grab a history book at look up "Tragedy of the Commons", which you will recognize is what we are dealing with on the Shore.

We are all responsible for the impact our decisions have and if you chose to own a big bike that you can't pedal up, then you and everyone else has to deal with the consequences of that choice, with the worst case scenario being no more biking as we know it today.

You can spew out whatever shit you want about 'freedom' and 'liberty', but in the end you have to realize that those values are also mutual incompatible. In our society we don't have the freedom to do whatever we want, because then the wolves would be free to eat the sheep, afterall.

Your attitude and your inability to see past your own immediate gratification is going to ruin it for everyone else.

[Lady Gravity]

jesus...where's that dead horse smiley when you need it :rolleyes:

[Rat]

If anyone doubts that shuttling is kicking the shit out of the shore, go ride eagle or fromme. The trails will do the talking

[FullMonty]

DIE, THREAD, DIE!!!! :P

[the flying moose]

http://www.creakyjoints.com/graphics/images/desktops/thumbnails/deadhorse_thumb.jpg

[Purecanadianhoney]

Originally posted by Lady Gravity
jesus...where's that dead horse smiley when you need it :rolleyes:

I know i'm beating a very dead horse on this one, but I just wanted to give Spleen another chance to brag about his really long thread. If you know what I mean. :)