freeride haters

[Bryce]

This weekend I stopped by Chapters and read more of Decline. Rennie bagged the crap out of freeriding, saying its bad for the sport and all.

Whats up with this? (I posted this before but it got axed for having bad words) I never would've guessed that people would be dividing us up like that.

I suppose Rennie had a good point when he said that freeriding is just plain riding and it doesn't need a special name. But 'mountain biking' means XC to the vast majority and what we ride is totally different. I guess I would define freeriding as riding stuff that wasn't intended to be ridden on a bike.

He also said that there's only a few freeriders that really have skills, most are just huckers. There is some truth to this. But freeriding is still pretty new - think of all the growing pains other sports have gone through. It wasn't that long ago that 'cool' snowboarders were jibbing trashcans on 142's with MC Hammeresque jeans. Like any sport, freeriding will evolve. Actually, I think its evolving pretty damn fast.

I guess if we have haters, it means we're players

[Dude]

Most old school freeriders came from a XC background, mainly attracted to FR because of the added challenge and diversity. To say most freeriders don't have skill couldn't be more inaccurate.

[corey@nsmb.com]

I think Rennie has some good points...

FREERIDING is just a commercial tag put on the way some people ride their bikes.. You really can't define it like you can DH and XC...its just riding your bike really. I have never used that term to identify "riding", I just don't think it fits the bill, and I feel like a wanker telling someone that I am a "free rider", as though it is supposed to disassocitate you from lycra.

We all ride and lots of us do it in different ways. I really don't see the need to put a lable on it beyond calling it "riding". But thats just me. If mountainbiking means 'XC" to the masses, I could care less...Why? There is nothing wrong or uncool about xc, and second, they are the ones ignoring the other aspects of riding, and it people choose to do so, I am not going to loose any sleep over it.

Racers like Rennie have skill levels that are far and beyond what the average (cringe) "free rider" has....Look at an event like the Red Bull series, when the racers step in, they kick ass. Consistantly.

DH racers at that level are doing things that look easy, but involve double the skill (to say the least) as throwing yourself off a cliff. The bike control and fitness levels to make it all work are nothing like any of us have. I can see why a guy like Rennie would be pissed off and a little bitter about things.

Why? He's a guy that likely spends 5 days a week on a bike, be it a road, xc, dh or stationary training his butt off. He's likely in the gym pushing weight almost daily. DH racing is not making many of these guys rich and could probably do with some more money and media coverage. The skills these guys have to pound down the terrain they do, ride as smooth as they do, and jump like they do is a result of talent, training and years of dedication.

I can see why he would diss (although I can;t say I agree) the "free riding" scene when he sees young bucks in street clothes and 2 years of experience hucking off cliffs and getting attention and a "title" that isn't necessarily earned.

It is hard to really see his perspective unless you take some time and put yourself in the shoes of a guy like him.

[Oldfart]

Its like any skill sport with an element of risk. In skiing you get people who jump off stuff and land like a lawn dart, BFD. Any spode can do that. Similarly in mountain biking, any one can huck off something its the landing and style that's hard. Its one reason that from a spectator standpoint I'm more drawn to timed events. There's no hiding a poor run the clock tells all. Whereas the judged events can be hard to figure out scoring wise.

The only real negative from my perspective with all the "freeride" thing these days is that shops don't carry much of a selection of XC equipment.

I might head down to Chapters later and see what Rennie was talking about. Why did he think it was bad for the sport? Which sport? DH racing? I would think it would be good for the sport as it provides a grassroots base. Actual freeride competitions are few and far between right now so its not like its taking competitors away from DH racing. One could argue that DH racing is bad for the sport as it takes away competitors from XC and freeriding. But that is a dumb argument. Lets face it, from this old guys perspective, one who has raced XC since the mid 80's as well as road, the attraction of off road riding is the thrill of the descent. I also like the challenge of the uphill and the skill of technical uphill and flats. If all I wanted was a workout I'd go to some boring gym and ride a trainner.

[ito]

I can't say that I have ever told someone I'm a freerider, I'm a mountainbiker and always will be. Freeriding, black diamon, out of bounds, whatever it's all marketing and despite the fact that it is growing fast I don't think "freeriding" takes the skill that racing does.

I got to go to the nationals in Durango this summer and I'll tell you now, what I saw was the best riding I have ever seen. Adding the element of speed and timing makes the sport that much more exciting to me. As was said, anyone can huck off of a cliff and while it takes skill and I respect those who do it alot "freeriding" is missing the true competitiveness of the sport. I think we all saw that redbull has problems with judging, well get this DH, XC, 4x, and DS have no judges, it's you against everyone else in the purest form out there, not everyone can go out and kill it like that everyday.

Rennie has a point, but remember it's his opinion. Just like the bmxers who didn't like Kyle Straight at the KOD, it doesn't mean we should stop. Divercify your riding style and you become a better rider, it's that simple. Don't confine yourself to definition.

The Ito

[corey@nsmb.com]

Well said Ito.

[BRT]

It's all two wheels - call it want you want.
After all we are all just riding bikes. Don't complicate a simple pleasure.

Decline?

[c2skyrida]

Originally posted by Mulletron
I think Rennie has some good points...

FREERIDING is just a commercial tag put on the way some people ride their bikes.. You really can't define it like you can DH and XC...its just riding your bike really.....Racers like Rennie have skill levels that are far and beyond what the average (cringe) "free rider" has....Look at an event like the Red Bull series, when the racers step in, they kick ass. Consistantly.

DH racers at that level are doing things that look easy, but involve double the skill (to say the least) as throwing yourself off a cliff. The bike control and fitness levels to make it all work are nothing like any of us have. I can see why a guy like Rennie would be pissed off and a little bitter about things.

Why? He's a guy that likely spends 5 days a week on a bike, be it a road, xc, dh or stationary training his butt off. He's likely in the gym pushing weight almost daily. DH racing is not making many of these guys rich and could probably do with some more money and media coverage. The skills these guys have to pound down the terrain they do, ride as smooth as they do, and jump like they do is a result of talent, training and years of dedication.

I can see why he would diss (although I can;t say I agree) the "free riding" scene when he sees young bucks in street clothes and 2 years of experience hucking off cliffs and getting attention and a "title" that isn't necessarily earned.

It is hard to really see his perspective unless you take some time and put yourself in the shoes of a guy like him.

So....to paraphrase, basically what you have is a bitter DH racer who is jealous of the attention (and $) paid to others who for there own reasons, don't spend all their time training and in the gym. Cry me a river! I know guys with minimal training who, on occassion, step up and beat more accomplished racers that train constantly. Furthermore, some top "freeriders" probably do train more than is realized - they just do it in less convential ways. I personally don't sepdn time in the gym, however I get out and hike, ski, and play sports - all training to a certain degree. As for media coverage and prize money etc. - people pay to see what they want and like - the media know that. People have clearly indicated that they prefer seeing Red Bull type events than they do a timed race that takes all day and is half-hidden in the trees. Times change and racing just ain't "cool" - "cool" sells. Look at skiing and snowboarding. Racers train hard, but so do the freeskiiers and the public is quickly shunning the boring racing scene for the exciting thrills of pip, park, and backcountry.

Jealousy and bitterness sum up Mr. Anti-Freeride! He reminds me of the old days when everybody dissed full-suspension for "ruining" mountain biking. :cry: Babies.

[Ned]

Ride more bitch less rings a pretty solid bell if you ask me.

[dirty deeds]

Rennie is one of the best bike handlers in the world. He's brash and he has an opinion. People shouldn't get so defensive about other peoples opinions.

There's not a lot of $ for pro's in the sport, whether it be racers or 'freeriders' (which is almost as dumb of a name as 'black diamong riders'). He sees what little money and exposure there is being diluted by 'freeriding', when he and his racing buds could school 95% of the freeriders out there.

What Nathan should realize is that 'freeriding' is the segment of MTB to which most people can relate at their own personal level, it's what fires up the kids (and big kids), it's what sells bikes, magazines and videos right now.

Rather than knocking the 'freeride' concept (which is only his opinion), he'd be better advised IMO to take a leaf out of Cedrics book and embrace the concept. Get out there and promote himself by doing the FR events, offer himself up to the videographers and still shooters.

He'll end up with a lot more friends, happier sponsors and a lot more money if he did.

[Bryce]

If there were no attention paid to freeriding I doubt Rennie would be dissing it - a textbook hater, thru and thru.

Some good points made but I still don't see the need to diss. If you can't say anything nice, then STFU and ride. If it were Palmer, I'd say OK, cuz Palm was just obnoxious (and we loved him for it)

I just hope this doesn't become some stupid division between racers and 'freeriders' (for lack of a better term)

[corey@nsmb.com]

Originally posted by c2skyrida
So....to paraphrase, basically what you have is a bitter DH racer who is jealous of the attention (and $) paid to others who for there own reasons, don't spend all their time training and in the gym. Cry me a river! I know guys with minimal training who, on occassion, step up and beat more accomplished racers that train constantly. Furthermore, some top "freeriders" probably do train more than is realized - they just do it in less convential ways. I personally don't sepdn time in the gym, however I get out and hike, ski, and play sports - all training to a certain degree. As for media coverage and prize money etc. - people pay to see what they want and like - the media know that. People have clearly indicated that they prefer seeing Red Bull type events than they do a timed race that takes all day and is half-hidden in the trees. Times change and racing just ain't "cool" - "cool" sells. Look at skiing and snowboarding. Racers train hard, but so do the freeskiiers and the public is quickly shunning the boring racing scene for the exciting thrills of pip, park, and backcountry.

Jealousy and bitterness sum up Mr. Anti-Freeride! He reminds me of the old days when everybody dissed full-suspension for "ruining" mountain biking. :cry: Babies.


OK. I see what you are saying...

1) the "training" argument was brought in by me, and my speculations. We can't diss Rennie for that.

2) The guy is a Jedi. All I was trying to do is put his argument into perspective, hoping to allow people to at least consider his opinion before brushing him off.

3) We should keep in mind the calibre of rider this is coming from. Rennie does it all, he even threw a back flip on a 4x course for fun after falling to the back of the pack in a race...away from the cameras and all the attention put on the front of the pack!


Agreed it is an opinion, and I respect it as that, and as one from a guy with gobs more experience than most of the people here. Nothing more, nothing less. :)

[corey@nsmb.com]

Originally posted by Bryce
If there were no attention paid to freeriding I doubt Rennie would be dissing it - a textbook hater, thru and thru.

Some good points made but I still don't see the need to diss. If you can't say anything nice, then STFU and ride. If it were Palmer, I'd say OK, cuz Palm was just obnoxious (and we loved him for it)

I just hope this doesn't become some stupid division between racers and 'freeriders' (for lack of a better term)


I think its just another talented ripper who has the balls and the capacity to formulate an opinion and to make it public.

These are the guys that help give our sport some character! I applaud him for doing so, even if it makes him sound like a bit of an ass...you can bet he is laughing about it.

[c2skyrida]

Originally posted by Bryce
If there were no attention paid to freeriding I doubt Rennie would be dissing it - a textbook hater, thru and thru.

...I just hope this doesn't become some stupid division between racers and 'freeriders' (for lack of a better term)

We share point 1 - he is a hater. As for point two - racing is overrated and racers seem to have a need to prove that they're the "best" or fastest or "whatever". Perhaps freeride evolved not only to describe a style, but a philosophy. A description of people who aren't about competing for times, but about riding with bros (and the ladies!) for fun - not profit and recognition. From this has spawned a branch who couldn't leave behind the competitive spirit and they needed to be biggest and again, "best". Hence the inclusion of so many "former racers" on the "freeride" scene. They gotta be front and centre or they have no meaning in life. Pathetic.

[corey@nsmb.com]

Originally posted by c2skyrida
point two - racing is overrated


Disagree. Racing is the driving force behind bike technology and the development of that technology. It is the arena where new ideas and equipment is tested and proven. Without racing, I really doubt bikes would be where they are now.

Racing is also a venue that brings cycling to the public, through spectating, advertising and of course advertising revenue (no comment on the level of that...I don't have the knowledge beyond knowing it exists).

What makes it over-rated?

[Bryce]

Originally posted by Mulletron
...you can bet he is laughing about it.

totally, eh!

[Oldfart]

Originally posted by c2skyrida
racing is overrated and racers seem to have a need to prove that they're the "best" or fastest or "whatever". Perhaps freeride evolved not only to describe a style, but a philosophy. A description of people who aren't about competing for times, but about riding with bros (and the ladies!) for fun - not profit and recognition. From this has spawned a branch who couldn't leave behind the competitive spirit and they needed to be biggest and again, "best". Hence the inclusion of so many "former racers" on the "freeride" scene. They gotta be front and centre or they have no meaning in life. Pathetic.

Have you never ever ridden something because your buddies did? Never did a wheelie because a chick was watching? Never showed off ever? That's a type of competition.

It's still competitive even when out with the bros. But it's under the surface. It's the I can ride this and you can't so I'm better than you competition. That still pushes people to perform better. It pushes the equipment too. Go on a ride by yourself and maybe you walk a few things, you know because if I fall and get hurt no one will carry me home. Go with the boys and you'll try way more things. It's not because your buddies will carry you out.....you're competing. We all do it. The most competitive will race or enter comps to prove their abilities.

[WBC]

I totally agree with the competitiveness aspect, Oldfart.

But...if I'm riding with good friends, it's more simply about having fun riding my bike. When I try stuff it's for the hangtime or whatever and because it's generally fun. Also to challenge myself against myself.

When I'm riding with people I don't know too well or people I may not neccessarily care for, I push myself way harder in attempt to beat my chest and jump and down. It sounds funny, but it's true. Whistler is espcially like this for me initially (before i realize how stupid it is :lol: ).

To say that being competetive is the only thing driving our sport isn't right, IMO. But it is a large part of it.

[c2skyrida]

Originally posted by Mulletron
Disagree. Racing is the driving force behind bike technology and the development of that technology. It is the arena where new ideas and equipment is tested and proven. Without racing, I really doubt bikes would be where they are now.
What makes it over-rated?

I would phrase it as, "traditionally, racing HAS been the driving force behind bike technology". I don't dispute racing's contribution to us getting to where we are today - what I am trying to get at is that we are no longer dependant on racing to continue this progression. Use skiing as an example. Racing spawned the technological advancements, however with skiiings "revolution" has come a new industry ("freeskiing") that is generating its own revenue streams and dictating the development of new, and different technology/equipment. Racing didn't develop twin-tips, fat skis, softer flex boots, or park-style helmets. Now look at biking, Saint was not designed for racing (albeit based on the racing foundations of XT/XTR). We are seeing a new form of biking emerge that is not dependant on racing for its existence. It's still in its infancy relative to racing, but if the trend continues, it may dictate its own place in the scheme of things with its own revenue streams. You are, based on our previous verbal exchanges, much more level-headed and thoughtful than some other board members, therefore I will admit that 'over-rated' was a stretch. I would suggest though that the current trends may render racing non-essential and possibly over the long-term, irrelevant in terms of developing new riding gear.

[corey@nsmb.com]

-time stops while C2Sky completes his best post ever-.

VERY well put, and I can't argue with a single thing there because when you lay it out like that, it makes perfect sense.

I would have saved you the challenge had you said all that in the first place! :)

[c2skyrida]

Originally posted by Mulletron
-time stops while C2Sky completes his best post ever-.

VERY well put, and I can't argue with a single thing there because when you lay it out like that, it makes perfect sense.

I would have saved you the challenge had you said all that in the first place! :)

Yes, but being challenged makes this so much more fun :D Ultimately, eveyone can argue 'till there blue in the face about what's good bad etc. I agree with you that Rennie (I don't know him) has a right to his opinion, especially since its an educated opinion (he sounds like a great rider). Controversial opinions and the thoughtful discussion that they provoke make the world a better place. Half the time I disagree with someone's post just to get them to clarify or support their position - not altogether different that you Lord Vader, albeit sometimes a tad blunt and offensive! As for competition - it has its place in "freeriding". But the choice is up to the rider if they want to be a part of the days competition. Racing is to choose competition beyond a "casual fling". Married to the urge to win. Not for all of us, regardless of how we like to push or be pushed to get better.

[Keefer]

Originally posted by c2skyrida
I would phrase it as, "traditionally, racing HAS been the driving force behind bike technology". I don't dispute racing's contribution to us getting to where we are today - what I am trying to get at is that we are no longer dependant on racing to continue this progression. Use skiing as an example. Racing spawned the technological advancements, however with skiiings "revolution" has come a new industry ("freeskiing") that is generating its own revenue streams and dictating the development of new, and different technology/equipment. Racing didn't develop twin-tips, fat skis, softer flex boots, or park-style helmets. Now look at biking, Saint was not designed for racing (albeit based on the racing foundations of XT/XTR). We are seeing a new form of biking emerge that is not dependant on racing for its existence. It's still in its infancy relative to racing, but if the trend continues, it may dictate its own place in the scheme of things with its own revenue streams. You are, based on our previous verbal exchanges, much more level-headed and thoughtful than some other board members, therefore I will admit that 'over-rated' was a stretch. I would suggest though that the current trends may render racing non-essential and possibly over the long-term, irrelevant in terms of developing new riding gear.

You have a point, and also look at all the new bikes that are coming out beefier etc, Demo 9 as an example. Dirtjumper forks, street specific stuff, it's all specialised market.
You can't deny that DH racing hasn't been progressing it too. Look at how many more options there are for rear shocks. Look at all the new internals in forks. Look at the soft compound tires, the lighter components coming out. Every area of the sport has been progressing.

I don't know much about skis, but when the curved design emerged with a force, that was developed to help racing, no? Lets you turn better? They have boosts under the bindings now to give better leverage on a turn?

Everywhere is advancing.

[c2skyrida]

Originally posted by Keefer

I don't know much about skis, but when the curved design emerged with a force, that was developed to help racing, no? Lets you turn better? They have boosts under the bindings now to give better leverage on a turn?

Everywhere is advancing.

Racing certainly was behind the advent of the shape ski. However, "freeriders" such as Shane McConkey started using fatter skis long before anyone accepted this idea as a viable alternative to the traditional longer, skinnier ski. Twin tips certainly have very little influence from racing! And binding plates - basically for racing, not always liked by freeriders (park) for the loss of "feel". Progression is everywhere though - racing or "freeride".

[Oldfart]

Wow. Quite a good thread. Absolutely, competition is not the only thing which drives equipment development, its just one thing. Necessity is another. I can remember some one ,Garret Lai? , glueing up two skinny road fenders to make mountainbike fenders. Next year there were proper ones, well proper width anyway. Syncros made the real fender stays. That need certainly didn't come from racing.

There are lots of "freeride" bikes out there that would not win a WC DH. Too heavy wrong geometry whatever. Although that need for a properly strong and quicker handling freeride bike came from a less formal form of competition, the competition to go bigger whether to impress friends or self doesn't really matter.

[Broken Fusion!]

I agree with Rennie when he says that freeride mountian biking doesn't need a special name... and it DEFINITELY doesn't need to be called "double-black riding" or whatever the hell name that retarded guy from MTBaction called it.
The other day a young kid who lives near me (who is just starting to ride) came up and said "I want to do that double black riding, like jumping of cliffs and stuff, double black riding is so cool." Cause I'm such a classy guy I didn't laugh in his face... but it was a struggle holding it in.
When someone asks me what I do, I say I mountain bike. I'm a mountain biker. Or a rider, I guess.
I can't bring myself to say freerider and I think it sounds lame people say "ya I'm a freerider, I freeride."
And the day I say "I'm a double-black rider" is the day that I want someone on this board to come and take my bike away from me for good, and possibly disable me, so I can't do any more damage.

[bzerk]

To this layperson:
XC = lots of pedaling
Freeriding = little pedaling, lots of stunts, emphasis on style over speed
Downhill = Speed kills
Black Diamond Riding = Tag line invented by a nimrod for other nimrods

Just shut up and ride......

:)

[Tool]

freeriding = skiing/ boarding backcountry or off runs down bowls or through trees

Mtn biking= all dicaplines, whatever people want to call them.

What if say i race dh, ride xc on the weekends, cycle to work and ride the shore after work......then what am i?

[white ri0t]

Originally posted by Tool
freeriding = skiing/ boarding backcountry or off runs down bowls or through trees

Mtn biking= all dicaplines, whatever people want to call them.

What if say i race dh, ride xc on the weekends, cycle to work and ride the shore after work......then what am i?
a cyclist.

[Heatmizer]

I don't think that Rennie neccessarily was dumping on "us" riders, but maybe the "Pros" of the sport. Doubt he gives a nickel about what any of us do.

The subjective judging of Freeride events is what I'd be disappointed in.

Cam's review of Redbull seemed to infer that that there were some questionable scores (I'm not gonna dig it all up and quote him, look it up if you need to).

It's not timed, it's judged on "style" - anyone here happen to remember a little old event not too long ago called the Winter olympics and some sort of problem with the Gold Medal pairs skating winners??

I'm not saying that the Redbull or any other events are fixed, but because it's all what the guys in the booth think of you - the rider doing the hardest work/stunts is probably not going to win - it's who looks the best doing it, even if they don't try as hard.

These judges also all sit around together and chat while the guys are riding and it doesn't seem like they are seperated from the rest of the events people, so I'm sure someone could "urge" a better score for one rider or the other.

In DH - the clock is the clock, not a whole lot of room for influence there, and style don't mean dick if you miss the podium.

[fr33k]

WTF is freeriding. I for one never ever have had a ride which hasnt cost me money.:D That aside I hate stupid names like "blackdiamond, big ring bikes,freeriding" Its just riding a mountain bike. I also agree with Mullet about the top world class dh racers having skills that we as a group could and most likely will never achieve. Theres always top people in every sport that stand out amongst there group. Whether its hockey , football, or cycling. just look what Cedric did at the redbull. I knew he was gonna do good by just seing his riding skill up in whistler. As for Rennie. I rode the gonndy with him a few times this summer and had the honour of riding down a-line behind him for a short time ( very short realy) the way he hit the corners was so smooth. Basicly just rode thru them with his front tire on the ground and rear in the air following. His jumping was amazing. For him to say freeriding and the term is stupid..............I have to agree. Its just riding a mountain bike. The only diffrence from a guy riding the Bridal Path or hucking large on Airsupply is some balls and skill most people could learn in a few hours. But in the end its still riding. It cant be classed like 4x, x/c or d/h.

[Incorrigible]

i guess rennie can give back his money he made at jindabyne not that long ago while he goes looking for another racing ride for next year. i think he just feels that racing is harder, and he is frustrated with the lack of sponsor enthusiasm for guys trying to make a living at racing - and i didn't read the piece, so i could be totally wrong!!!

to me, racing is going to be the primary developer of equipment, but not the only one. racers are looking for competitive advantages within the weekend, let alone from race to race, so their new stuff has to come out fast. also, manufacturers are looking to test products in relatively repeatable environments over the long term. racing is perfect for that.

[Dan]

i agree with the fact that most freeriders dont have skill. i admit, i am more of a freerider then a DHer, and yes, i dont have that much style. i agree, i just huck off stuff with no style, anyone can do that.

thats why im starting DJing (well trying) and things that are going to get me some style. i think DJing is the key if you want some style in the air. i dont want to be 'a kid who just jumps off stuff' personally, i like gaps better then dorps neway, more skill involved.

i was kinda pissed off that rennie said that when i first read wot you said, but now i agree with what he is saying, i can see where he is coming from.

dont get me wrong :) i LOVE DH too, im just not that fast on a HT compared to the 7inch race DH bikes :)

Cheers mates!

[Aircorp]

I don't think racing is going to be rendered irrelevant, it is progressing just as much as freeriding, they are just both going in different direction, so far mountain biking has branched off into many different styles and diciplines. Look at the advancements in racing which ALSO have freeriding applications, 5th Element, VPP, Dorado, SPV, UST, "sticky rubber" and so much more, all of these things seem fairly recent and were originally developed for racing.

[Zu]

You can break freeriding into many groups...


/-dirt jumping
/-urban/street
freeriding=/-park riding
\-shore-style riding
\-trail riding

[Slamigo]

excellent thread!

Black Diamond Riding = Tag line invented by a nimrod for other nimrods :P too funny cuz it's true!


When asked what kind of riding I do, I always say XC. That's what it is. I ride 'agressive' XC with the occasional stunt or 8' drop. What is commonly known as XC now, is actually doubletrack, singletrack or gravel path.

We should reclaim the XC tag. We are the ones who actually ride cross-country. The spandex crowd walk their bikes over the obstacles. We ride our bikes over the obstacles.

I mean, it's just a path in the woods. Some have harder obstacles than others.

I love saying, 'Yeah, I ride XC.' Then I get on my Bullit with Shivers and 321s and hit the trails.

I've had guys laugh at our bikes in the parking lot. A guy mockingly said, "Yeah, I don't think you need a DH rig to ride here pal!" To which I politely replied, "What about that 8' drop. Or rock garden? How about the ladder-bridge with the drop-off? Do you hit those on your hardtail Trek?"

"Well, no." Then we usually invite the guys to come check out the trails the way we ride. We do this in a friendly way, to encourage people to be a little more open minded. Most guys that do tag along, get pretty stoked when they finally "see" what we are riding. They had probably seen the drops a hundred times and never really imagined that people were riding it. Then they start asking a ton of questions about set-up, forks, tires, etc.

It's just the phony tag created by the media/industry about "freeriders" being young punks riding off roofs. The industry and bike mags in particular have cultivated this divide. The spandex XC guys are usually pretty cool guys who like to mountain bike, but haven't really tried the more agressive stuff because it is an unknown to them.

I used to ride XC but I really liked the technical stuff and jumps. (I have a strong BMX freestyle background.) I met a group of riders one day on shore-style hardtails and I was really impressed with their riding and their bikes. I asked a bunch of questions and these kids were pretty cool about explaining things. Next year, I put riser bars and a 5 inch fork on my XC ride. The year after that I bought the SC Bullit.

So, according to the magazines, I was a XC spandex wank and now I am a freeride superstar? I think not. I am still the same guy who loves to go mtbiking. I don't think my family or friends noticed any difference? As far as they are concerned, I just mountain bike. That's the way I like it.

I say we reclaim the term cross-country and make it apply to all trail riding. Let's stop the industry from creating this false divide.

...double black diamond. If someone ever said that to me on the trail, I think I'd turn around and show em a nice fruit bowl.:P What a farce!

[c2skyrida]

Nice post Slamigo....we all really are "evolved" cross-countriers so why did we allow the names to change....?

My only gripe - what is so wrong with guys that don't have DH skills or deadly bike handling ability. There is so much negativity about kids who get ona bike and huck or just wanna jump it etc. Who gives a sh*t! That stuff is fun - I remember doign that on my BMX. So they use a duelie instead - leave 'em alone and mind your own business. If Rennie hates that - then he is a b*tch. Kids just want to have fun and I say we all should have fun whatever way we want - no "skills" testing required. All the "holier than thou riders" can kiss my ass. You all started somewhere....and it wasn't pro I'm sure!:fu:

[lockemiester]

Originally posted by Slamigo
<snip>
(I have a strong BMX freestyle background.) <snip>

How about MTB Freestyle? That would probably sum it up better than "freeriding" or "Black-Diamond"...Though, I too simply call it riding.

This is a good discussion. But I found it funny the way some were arguing about the effect that racing and competition have on the gear we use(I know..dead issue). It was in itself a competition. Competition is what drives us. Everything out there eventually leads to some form of competition, be it individual or against the clock or others. Red Bull stuff and UFC for examples.

I think the riders themselves have a larger effect on the gear we use, versus the dicipline they have chosen. Racers and Freestylers(haha, quoted my own term..) give feedback to the manufacturers and that creates development of new, more advanced gear. Racers want lighter parts and the Freestylers want durability. They both want reliability.

Originally posted by Slamigo

<snip> show em a nice fruit bowl.:P <snip>

HAHAHAH Fruit Basket!!!!!!

[BULLITBOY]

I think I've heard all this crap before but it was skiing versus snowboarding. Who cares what other people think?. Just ride and be happy.

[c2skyrida]

Originally posted by BULLITBOY
I think I've heard all this crap before but it was skiing versus snowboarding. Who cares what other people think?. Just ride and be happy.

Hell 'ya - that's it kids. Be happy and ride, ride and be happy. :)

[dirty deeds]

Originally posted by c2skyrida
Nice post Slamigo....we all really are "evolved" cross-countriers so why did we allow the names to change....?

The first I ever heard the 'freeride' term applied to mountain bikers was in the first ever Kranked, and they pushed the term real hard in that vid.

Back then they were trying to tell people 'hey, if you buy this video, you're not going to see boring old XC or DH race footage, you're going to see something different - freeriding', a term they stole from snow sports - so I blame the Kranked guys for the label.

The 'black diamond' bullshit will never stick so it's not even worth talking about.

Originally posted by c2skyrida
My only gripe - what is so wrong with guys that don't have DH skills or deadly bike handling ability. There is so much negativity about kids who get ona bike and huck or just wanna jump it etc. Who gives a sh*t! That stuff is fun - I remember doign that on my BMX. So they use a duelie instead - leave 'em alone and mind your own business. If Rennie hates that - then he is a b*tch. Kids just want to have fun and I say we all should have fun whatever way we want - no "skills" testing required. All the "holier than thou riders" can kiss my ass. You all started somewhere....and it wasn't pro I'm sure!:fu:

Rennie's point is just get out on your bike and have fun and fuck the labels. Rennie of all people, exemplifies this.

I think what he's also saying is, hey kids don't just try for the big dumb drops, try to work style and expression into your riding.

[jro]

Originally posted by Tool
freeriding = skiing/ boarding backcountry or off runs down bowls or through trees

Mtn biking= all dicaplines, whatever people want to call them.

What if say i race dh, ride xc on the weekends, cycle to work and ride the shore after work......then what am i?

A guy that put too many things in one question.

[browndog]

I don't give a durn about Nathan Rennie or his semantic preference. I do like to ride my bike, quite often, and I don't care what people call what I am doing. As long as my mates know what I mean when I ring up and say, "Let's get a ride in..." then how much more vocabulary mean?

I suppose it is to help define and create a category for the type of riding that "SoCal DirtJumpers-NorthShore TeeterNinjas-Utah Stuntmen" enjoy? Okay...

Seems funny to attempt to keep naming and renaming, whether or not Rennie is bitching.

A good thread, you guys are all informative and respectfully opinionated for the most part. Thanks- NsMb rips.

[Oldfart]

Freeriding is a term stolen from skiing. And I mean ski racing. For decades ski racers have trained, raced, skied in gates done drills or gone freeskiing. Its just what they called unstructured skiing. "Go freeski a couple runs" says the coach "To get warmed up". "Too much snow to train safely today kids, we're going freeskiing."

Extreme skiers 15-20 years ago were the guys like Vallencant and Boivin and later the Trevor Pettersons and Scott Schmidts. What they skied was described as extreme where a fall meant grievous bodily harm or death.

Then a bunch of ex racers with no mountaineering experience to speak of and enough money for heli's emulated that. Turned into comps and here we are.

Similar genesis of the term in mountainbiking. You race XC DH or .... freeride? I don't use the term to describe riding as much as a type of bike. But to quote George Carlin " They're just words. Its the thoughts that are bad."

[c2skyrida]

Originally posted by Oldfart
Freeriding is a term stolen from skiing. ....

So true, however we used it when skiiing to mean poaching the lift without a pass! :P

[GrimJack]

There is some marketing in the term Freeriding, for sure. And it's been quite successful, really. But consider a few things here...

How would we buy new equipment without classifications? The RaceFace Next LP cranks LOOK burly enough, without the note "Intended Use: XC" on their website, how many people would buy them, break them, and get no warranty loving from RaceFace?

If we are all just cyclists, then why is the DVD of the Tour de France so damned BORING? I want a Freeride / Black Diamond label on all the vids I buy. I also want a warning label that says "WARNING, DIRT JUMPS INSIDE!" but maybe that's just me. ;) I'm not a narrow minded MTB rider either, I've raced road, ridden XC and BMX, and recently started to learn trials. The truth of the matter is that most cycling is boring to watch.

I'm planning a vacation. I want to go to Moab. Why? Because they have likely the second best freeriding on the planet - the best being here, of course. Without the freeriding tag, I might end up in some place so flat, you can see your dog run away for a week. ;)

All markets become segmented, and will be defined by specialized terms. That's the way of the world. As the market matures, and more specialized product becomes available for a field, manufacturers, distributers, retail outlets, and consumers need special terms to categorize new products. Computers, automobiles, restaurants, clothing, gym memberships, cruise lines, the list goes on forever.

We might as well pick a term that we can live with, something that helps our image improve with the general public, and throw our support behind it. Otherwise the marketing people will just pick a term for us.

[c2skyrida]

Originally posted by GrimJack


If we are all just cyclists, then why is the DVD of the Tour de France so damned BORING?..... The truth of the matter is that most cycling is boring to watch.

We might as well pick a term that we can live with, something that helps our image improve with the general public, and throw our support behind it. Otherwise the marketing people will just pick a term for us.

True dat. Cycling was the most boring sport to watch on TV (next to curling, golf, and darts). DH racing, followed by the new school stuff, freeride, whatever - it changed the image and brought on some excitement - read: MONEY/SPONSORS, etc.

Freeride works for me but y'all can call it whatever you want.

[Dan]

i cant wait till the DH and freeride scene kicks off in the media here in aus, coz none of my friends who dont ride dont really know what we do, they just think i go for a little sunday ride in the forrest :) (nothin wrong with that tho), then they see one of my vids:thepimp:

anyway....
like garath said on superheros 3, 'its all about fun, and having it' or something like that. who cares what some other people think of your type of riding.

[CDN_FR_RDR]

i'd hate to be catgorized the same as XC:mad: people who bitch about freeride are pretty much dumbass' whieght weenies

[dhrider]

Originally posted by Ned
Ride more bitch less rings a pretty solid bell if you ask me.

:werd:

[Dan]

Originally posted by CDN_FR_RDR
i'd hate to be catgorized the same as XC:mad: people who bitch about freeride are pretty much dumbass' whieght weenies

yeh? ever thaught some people might hate you for saying that? i dont like XC, but i dont dislike it either. its wot they like doing, thats fine with me. and in a 'normal' persons eyes, XC and DH are basicly the same.

[Ned]

Originally posted by CDN_FR_RDR
i'd hate to be catgorized the same as XC:mad: people who bitch about freeride are pretty much dumbass' whieght weenies

Good humor. Tells me a lot about the tunnel vision induced by the marketing hacks who came into the game late and forgot (or never knew)about what pedalling your bike is all about. Seems like you've bought into the KoolAid stand hook line and sinker.

BTW, I ride what you might call XC since I pedal my bike to get to the descents- some of which are in the multiple thousands of feet and double digit mileage too. I also ride what you might call freeride- especially when I'm taking my dogs out for a fun ride to play around a bit and I don't want to thrash on them with a big day on the bike. I also spend a lot of time on the road bike which puts me into a state of physical readiness that would allow me to happily 'XC' my way up to some of the biggest descents and prime untracked terrain imaginable... on any weight of bike I choose.

Open up your mind boy... Or some will get a box cutter and do it for you.

[Neo]

i ride both XC and freeride but who cares what you call it. more often than not, i'm am doing both on most rides anyways. :rolleyes:

[Oldfart]

Originally posted by Ned
BTW, I ride what you might call XC since I pedal my bike to get to the descents- some of which are in the multiple thousands of feet and double digit mileage too. I also ride what you might call freeride- especially when I'm taking my dogs out for a fun ride to play around a bit and I don't want to thrash on them with a big day on the bike. I also spend a lot of time on the road bike which puts me into a state of physical readiness that would allow me to happily 'XC' my way up to some of the biggest descents and prime untracked terrain imaginable... on any weight of bike I choose.

Open up your mind boy... Or some will get a box cutter and do it for you.

Whoa. Are you me?

[jro]

Like it or not it needs a name for the simply sake of definition.

A "Freeride bike" in Van may be different from a free ride bike in Cali but they are porbably closer related than a 23 lbs XC machine.

I don't see anything wrong with the term "Freeriding".
If that is the type of riding you like to do than so be it.

The masses are who drives the sport and makes the fat cats who benefit the most look at the sport more seriously. Even if some suit who doesn't even ride but runs an entire biking empire can define what target market to throw some more cash at in the second quarter by the term "Freeriding" then that is good for all new tech and R&D that it takes to make better products.

You don't have to define yourself to anyone about What you are.
If you say you are a Mountain biker because you bike is just like you say that you are an Eater because you eat. If you want to define yourself to a group or lifestyle to make yourself feel better than that is fine too.

I for one am just a person who enjoys riding a bicycle.

[m33p]

Free ride = Rebull = hucking your meat. Thatès what everyone sees when they see the word.

[jedi]

in the uk we have the same arguments.
i see it as a way of clarifying the ride if i say were going for an xc ride it means you should know what to expect,if i say we're going freeriding you know you're goning to need your whole bag of tricks:O)

[c2skyrida]

All of you just shut up and hug. You too m33p:D

[J dot]

so yahh...

ride bikes ?

[ElDiablo]

Originally posted by Mulletron
I think Rennie has some good points...

FREERIDING is just a commercial tag put on the way some people ride their bikes.. You really can't define it like you can DH and XC...its just riding your bike really. I have never used that term to identify "riding", I just don't think it fits the bill, and I feel like a wanker telling someone that I am a "free rider", as though it is supposed to disassocitate you from lycra.

We all ride and lots of us do it in different ways. I really don't see the need to put a lable on it beyond calling it "riding". But thats just me. If mountainbiking means 'XC" to the masses, I could care less...Why? There is nothing wrong or uncool about xc, and second, they are the ones ignoring the other aspects of riding, and it people choose to do so, I am not going to loose any sleep over it.

Racers like Rennie have skill levels that are far and beyond what the average (cringe) "free rider" has....Look at an event like the Red Bull series, when the racers step in, they kick ass. Consistantly.

DH racers at that level are doing things that look easy, but involve double the skill (to say the least) as throwing yourself off a cliff. The bike control and fitness levels to make it all work are nothing like any of us have. I can see why a guy like Rennie would be pissed off and a little bitter about things.

Why? He's a guy that likely spends 5 days a week on a bike, be it a road, xc, dh or stationary training his butt off. He's likely in the gym pushing weight almost daily. DH racing is not making many of these guys rich and could probably do with some more money and media coverage. The skills these guys have to pound down the terrain they do, ride as smooth as they do, and jump like they do is a result of talent, training and years of dedication.

I can see why he would diss (although I can;t say I agree) the "free riding" scene when he sees young bucks in street clothes and 2 years of experience hucking off cliffs and getting attention and a "title" that isn't necessarily earned.

It is hard to really see his perspective unless you take some time and put yourself in the shoes of a guy like him.

I don't know who this Rennie guy is, but if that is the reason he diss the "free riding" scene he must be an idiot. Attention, who deserves attention and who gets attention? People that does something out of the ordinary or are very good at what they do, they get attention. It's not about that kid that has done something his whole life to get attention.

If that's the reason why not complain about every other sport?

The label "free riding" is just like any other "label" in other sports.

[Dan]

Originally posted by ElDiablo
I don't know who this Rennie guy is

Nathan Rennie, World Cup DHer, aussie, USUALLY a pretty cool guy. this is the first time i have not agreed or liked him.

[white ri0t]

Originally posted by Bryce
This weekend I stopped by Chapters and read more of Decline. Rennie bagged the crap out of freeriding, saying its bad for the sport and all.

Whats up with this? (I posted this before but it got axed for having bad words) I never would've guessed that people would be dividing us up like that.

I suppose Rennie had a good point when he said that freeriding is just plain riding and it doesn't need a special name. But 'mountain biking' means XC to the vast majority and what we ride is totally different. I guess I would define freeriding as riding stuff that wasn't intended to be ridden on a bike.

He also said that there's only a few freeriders that really have skills, most are just huckers. There is some truth to this. But freeriding is still pretty new - think of all the growing pains other sports have gone through. It wasn't that long ago that 'cool' snowboarders were jibbing trashcans on 142's with MC Hammeresque jeans. Like any sport, freeriding will evolve. Actually, I think its evolving pretty damn fast.

I guess if we have haters, it means we're players

I couldn't agree more!



http://www.tvdance.com/americanpie/images/1a.gifhttp://www.tvdance.com/waynesworld/gfox2.gifhttp://www.tvdance.com/americanpie/images/2a.gifhttp://www.tvdance.com/presidential/clinton1a.gifhttp://www.tvdance.com/aceventura/5a.gif http://www.tvdance.com/austinpowers2/images/minisway-.gifhttp://www.tvdance.com/happygilmore/drum.gif http://www.tvdance.com/ferrisbueller/8a.gifhttp://www.tvdance.com/pulpfiction/twist1.gif http://www.tvdance.com/roadtrip/stage1tag.gif http://www.tvdance.com/bush-gore/images/22anew.gifhttp://www.tvdance.com/zoolander/5a.gifhttp://www.tvdance.com/chrisfarley/images/4a.gifhttp://www.tvdance.com/grease/glightning.gif http://www.tvdance.com/jerrymaguire/5a.gifhttp://www.tvdance.com/drewcarey/show.gifhttp://www.tvdance.com/california-recall/richardbody1g.gif

[FullMonty]

Diggler, that image scares me, immensely.

I think the problem is that we're all trying to get philosophical about the marketing that the various companies use. Anyone who's taken an introductory philosophy course knows that most of this stuff is pointless when taken in context with your everyday life. Sure, I may not be able to reason out that I am a distinct entity from the rest of the world, but does it REALLY matter? Not a lick. Same deal with whatever label we put on ourselves as mountain bikers. Equipment, well, that's up for debate, because you certainly wouldn't want to ride an XC epic on your V10, but your SC Blur would suck on the DH course.

Moral of the story?

LESS THINKING, MORE RIDING

:kiss:

[m33p]

Rennie rules anyone on this board.

[BRT]

Was the interview in Decline presented in a way to create an arguement? Rennie is a stand up dude. And an excellent bike handler. "Freeriding" is a loose term. Talk to ten people and you will get ten definitions. Rennie is allowed to have his own opinion. It doesn't make him a hater.

Go for a ride. ;)

[Leifless]

Originally posted by m33p
Rennie rules anyone on this board.

:werd:

[ElDiablo]

Originally posted by Dan
i agree with the fact that most freeriders dont have skill. i admit, i am more of a freerider then a DHer, and yes, i dont have that much style. i agree, i just huck off stuff with no style, anyone can do that.



Why is skill so important? Do I care if my riding buddies are not as good as me or better than me? No. Not everyone can be a pro. Why whine at the people that can "huck off stuff with no style", they are having fun, and learning.

If Nathan Rennie can't make a living of racing DH, who gives a shit? Not everyone can make a living of doing what they love, I would also love too make a living by just riding DH all days but of course I'm not skilled enough.

[Bryce]

Originally posted by BRT
Was the interview in Decline presented in a way to create an arguement? Rennie is a stand up dude. And an excellent bike handler. "Freeriding" is a loose term. Talk to ten people and you will get ten definitions. Rennie is allowed to have his own opinion. It doesn't make him a hater.

Go for a ride. ;)

If his opinions are formed by jealousy, he's a hater.

When was it that Wade was dissing XC and DH racing? Oh yeah, it was NEVER cuz he's a PROFESSIONAL

[c2skyrida]

Originally posted by Bryce
If his opinions are formed by jealousy, he's a hater.

When was it that Wade was dissing XC and DH racing? Oh yeah, it was NEVER cuz he's a PROFESSIONAL

Nice point Bryce - a professional doesn't bitch about others successes or about changes to an industry that enable it to appeal to a wider variety of people. A professional just learns to adapt and stay on top of the changes. Wade is THE example of that pure professionalism at work.

[c2skyrida]

Originally posted by m33p
Rennie rules anyone on this board.

Would that include you too? Imagine, you accepting that you may not be the fastest....I thought I'd never read that here.:eek: :D

[m33p]

Rennie owns me plenty, I seen him ride at whistler, but misstimed all my runs to meet up with him:(.

Its funny, because Rennie could go freeriding and destroy wade, vandermam and the rest of the hardcores. Just like Cedy owns all the redbull hacks.

[FatHack]

Um, I ride bikes, and I like it.

So, if I ride road bikes, track bikes, XC, DH, FR, BMX and cross, and am mediocre at all of them where exactly would I fit into the whole continum?

[ElDiablo]

Originally posted by m33p
Rennie owns me plenty, I seen him ride at whistler, but misstimed all my runs to meet up with him:(.

Its funny, because Rennie could go freeriding and destroy wade, vandermam and the rest of the hardcores. Just like Cedy owns all the redbull hacks.

Why is that funny? Does it matter which one is the best? Even if Rennie was better than Wade Simmons at freeriding, why should he diss freeriding? There's no excuse to diss freeriding Rennie is just being immature.

[c2skyrida]

Threads dead baby, threads dead.

[m33p]

Originally posted by ElDiablo
Why is that funny? Does it matter which one is the best? Even if Rennie was better than Wade Simmons at freeriding, why should he diss freeriding? There's no excuse to diss freeriding Rennie is just being immature.

Its funny cause people take personal opinions to seriously. Loosen up, Rennies a cool guy.

[J dot]

rennie has his right to his childish opinion ,he can say what he wants. and he is a VERY good bike rider

but everyone is taking this too seriously.. we are all just riding bikes.. why categorize EVERYTHING so tat someone always has to be better:???:

[chauncy]

Rennie can say whatever he wants and I'm sure he's a good rider, but I don't think he's better than Wade or Super T. I don't see what's super hard about dh either. All they do is ride bikes with obserd amounts of travel off like 5 foot drops. The only hard thing about dh is picking lines, which I'm sure Wade and other pro riders could do. If rennie has such pro bike handling abilities, why isn't he outstyling wade, outbalancing Dangerous Dan, and riding urban like Chris Donahue and Nigel.

[m33p]

Originally posted by chauncy
Rennie can say whatever he wants and I'm sure he's a good rider, but I don't think he's better than Wade or Super T. I don't see what's super hard about dh either. All they do is ride bikes with obserd amounts of travel off like 5 foot drops. The only hard thing about dh is picking lines, which I'm sure Wade and other pro riders could do. If rennie has such pro bike handling abilities, why isn't he outstyling wade, outbalancing Dangerous Dan, and riding urban like Chris Donahue and Nigel.

You have much to learn. If wade can choose lines so easily, why isnt he top on the world cup. Dh racing takes a lot more than freeriding ever will. Rennie makes wade look bad. Just search for some of rennies pics somewhere. Sick style, And he can go big.

http://www.pinkbike.com/modules/photo/?op=view&image=28317

[white ri0t]

Originally posted by chauncy
Rennie can say whatever he wants and I'm sure he's a good rider, but I don't think he's better than Wade or Super T. I don't see what's super hard about dh either. All they do is ride bikes with obserd amounts of travel off like 5 foot drops. The only hard thing about dh is picking lines, which I'm sure Wade and other pro riders could do. If rennie has such pro bike handling abilities, why isn't he outstyling wade, outbalancing Dangerous Dan, and riding urban like Chris Donahue and Nigel.

It is clear that you have never competed before.
Comparing a DH racer to street riders is like comparing apples to oranges.

[Slamigo]

He's probably not out freeriding because he's too busy:

http://www.vitesseonline.it/uci/mtb/riderdetail.asp?IDRider=5408

But still, he will not have the respect that Cedric has until he dominates in both areas.

I don't see what's super hard about dh either. All they do is ride bikes with obserd amounts of travel off like 5 foot drops. The only hard thing about dh is picking lines,
Yeah, :rolleyes: go ask Johnny Waddell about that. I think DH is plenty hard.

[Rexington420]

this thread is fucking stupid
just ride how ever you wanna ride, street, dh, trials, or whatever and fuck what other people thing, wheater your good or bad fuck what other people think of you. just ride...

[J dot]

and why the hell does everyone compare EVERYONE to wade.... there is no such thing as a molded handcrafted perfect human bike rider. just have respect for those who have a good attitude , and can ride a bike in their own individual way ..

[Captain Da]

Originally posted by ito
I can't say that I have ever told someone I'm a freerider, I'm a mountainbiker and always will be. Freeriding, black diamon, out of bounds, whatever it's all marketing and despite the fact that it is growing fast I don't think "freeriding" takes the skill that racing does.


agreed. when people ask what my sport is i say mountain biking, not freeriding. and yes, racing takes way more skill.