Tree debate

[synchro]

When it comes to the use of live trees there are many different opinions taken by the builders out there. I just wanted to discuss who does what and what their rationale or thinking is.

I have what appears to be a few contrdictory opinions. I will try to use blow down or deadfall first, but in some areas quality timber is not always available. Sometimes you have to cut. I refuse to cut healthy young cedars for stringers, simply because there are not that many live cedar trees left on the Shore. There is an abundance of fir, hemlock and pine however, so I don't mind cutting a young one of those down. For stringers this stuff is okay as long as the bark is stripped off to prevent rot.

I won't nail into a live tree for one main reason; in windy conditions the tree will move and so will your structure. This will eventually weaken it by causing the nails to work lose. I would rather top a tree and nail into the stump than leave it tall.

There are often trees out there that appear healthy but are on their way to dying, I figure those are fair game, cedar or not. I have grabbed a few nice cedars that have supplied many rungs for a trail this way.

I believe in going for the dead stuff first. However, if that doesn't work out then live, non-cedar trees are the next option. I think in the whole scheme of things that taking down a few lives trees for a trail is not that big a deal. If you were to use dimensional lumber it works out to the same thing.

There is a limit on how far through the forest I will cart deadfall to get it to a worksite. I realize that you can probably find everything you need on the forest floor, but spending the bulk of my time searching hell and gone for deadfall that might take me an hour to haul back to the worksite is not very productive IMO.

Have at her boys!

[trail worker]

jeez mark,bringing up the dead,eh?;)
http://bb.nsmb.com/newforum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1281&highlight=trail+worker

anyways,a few of my opinions have changed since then.i try not to nail into live tree's AT all,but i still have no qualms about taking live tree's.we're allowed to do that up here,so it's not a worry.
for me,nailing into live tree's in more of an asthetics thing..
I'm ashamed that i used to nail into live tree's,and call it good work...it was simply that i hadn't yet figured out how to make a-frame that work well .
got all that jazz sorted out now,and it's looking awesome.

[synchro]

Yeah, totally forgot about that thread. Like you, some of my opinions have changed too now that I have more experience. This thread popped up b/c I got into a bit of a quandry on one of my trails last week. Ultimately I cut down a live tree that I probably should have left. But one tree isn't going to make a huge difference. Although, I can hear the bleeding hearts now, "Well if everybody cut down one tree............". Fortunately not everybody builds. Unfortunately, hardly anybody builds, but that's a topic for another day. Not every builder has access to a chainsaw either, so I won't worry about one extra tree. I'll look at it as blowdown that had yet to come down. And who's this Mark guy, I've never heard of him.

[trail worker]

heh,trust me...
alot of coffee and a bucksaw can cut down a pretty damn big tree,or numerous trees for that matter.

the worst incident we had with cutting a tree down was ages ago,when we felled a tree right onto a brigde we had just finished building.
luckily,it was alright and surprisingly there was absolutely no damage to it at all.

[synchro]

lol, I'll go you one better. Switch was with me when I cut the big one down last week. I told him to keep an eye out b/c it might be coming in his direction. He said no worries, I'll listen for the saw and when it stops. When I got to my final cut I yelled out "You ready" and let her go. When I go to find Switch I can't find him b/c he was standing right where the tree now is. I look around and find him and he comes over with this grin on his face, pumped full of adrenaline and says "I was standing right there. I watched it starting to fall and realized it was coming right for me. I don't think I've ever run so fast in my life" We had a good laugh over it but it was kinda scary none the less. Good rule when falling trees is to make sure the area is clear, have a good idea of where it's going to fall and make sure everybody in the vicinity knows what you are doing. Even when you take the proper precautions like I did you can still get a bit of a fright.

[well ridden]

some of the best builders nail into trees, but other say not to .so im not sure what to do. i guess the best would be to only nail if it is an absoulout must

[Taylor_P]

we (trail worker and i) stay away from the nailing into live trees now, simply because it looks bad. also creates a danger by having the long bar to rack yourself on if you are unfortunate enough to fall on it. :)

[chopcity]

Wellwhat I do is, I search the ground for some nice Stringers and if their is not any around my area I will cut a small tree down for a stringer(if only a must) Then whn building a structure I try to do as much freestandig as possible but that i rather difficult so i nail a few into a tree (glavanized nails), I dont mind nailing into trees if their are galvanised

[trail worker]

Originally posted by Stathis
...Then whn building a structure I try to do as much freestandig as possible but that is rather difficult so i nail a few into a tree (glavanized nails)...

yeah,but with proper skill,it isn't hard to make a freestanding structure. all it takes is minimal basic construction skills...

[switch]

I suppose you could take down a tree if you really have too, but you should make sure you don't take anybody down with it... ;)

[evanius]

Originally posted by Stathis
I dont mind nailing into trees if their are galvanised

Galvinizing has no effect on trees, but may slow rust on the nail. The reason people get upset about nailing into live trees is that the nail can allow fungus, insects and diseases to attack the tree more easily, so you may end up killing it over time unintentionally. Aside from that, the main negative is that nailing live trees will cast us in a bad light. Same for cutting live trees. I have cut live trees myself a few times, but like many of you only when there was no dead standing trees or deadfall around. I also tried to incorporate the stump into the trail to hide it.

I don't have a huge problem with cutting the odd live tree, but use reason. First look for deadfall, dead standing trees, or trees that appear to be dying. As far as what species i agree with synchro that cedar should be avoided. However, hemlock is another species that grows over 100s of years up thru the canopy, and is not that likely to die in low light. I think the best thing to do is to look for a dense patch of smaller trees, rather than taking 1 from where trees are spaced out. The reason is that a few of the trees in the dense patch will lose out to competition for light/water over time and die, so taking one or two from there will have less effect on the forest. Forest companies sometime thin dense stands as it can promote faster growth. Just be careful if you are ear a park or houses - a chainsaw may rile up joe public and get you in trouble. If you can't cut it with a handsaw then it is too big anyways

[switch]

Originally posted by evanius
Aside from that, the main negative is that nailing live trees will cast us in a bad light.

Plus, what is essentially being done is tree spiking, and that is criminal.

[Putty]

i cut them down, but i don't spike live ones

[dirttorpedo]

Originally posted by synchro
There is an abundance of fir, hemlock and pine however, so I don't mind cutting a young one of those down. For stringers this stuff is okay as long as the bark is stripped off to prevent rot.

On the coast the two best species of trees for trail building (from a rot resistence point of view) are the cedars and doug fir. Most of the other confirs will break down fairly quickly. dfir is stronger than cedar for an equal diameter when building bridge stringers, etc., but has less rot resistence. Stripping bark off of logs probably doesn't do much to improve rot resistence - keeping the wood dry does.

[BURKE PHANTOMS]

cut live trees, but don't put nails through stringers into the tree???. Three inches of spike or nail going through a stringer with the other three inches going into a tree does not strike me as instrusive as cutting a healthy or sick standing tree down. When we build we try to minimize the effect on the environment as much as possible. We do not build stunts where we can't find dead fall. If we do anchor to a standing tree we nail as little as possible. I have seen many stunts at the wood lot built in this matter and the tree's seem to be surviving fine. Even though some are anal about nailing to tree's and I am anal about cutting live tree's the reality is that logging can wipe out a trail that took six months to build in about two hours. I think the type of people that are going to fret about nails in trees are not going tp appreciate man made stunts and the limited amount of destruction that MB trails make.

[synchro]

Originally posted by BURKE PHANTOMS
cut live trees, but don't put nails through stringers into the tree???. Three inches of spike or nail going through a stringer with the other three inches going into a tree does not strike me as instrusive as cutting a healthy or sick standing tree down. When we build we try to minimize the effect on the environment as much as possible. We do not build stunts where we can't find dead fall. If we do anchor to a standing tree we nail as little as possible. I have seen many stunts at the wood lot built in this matter and the tree's seem to be surviving fine. Even though some are anal about nailing to tree's and I am anal about cutting live tree's the reality is that logging can wipe out a trail that took six months to build in about two hours. I think the type of people that are going to fret about nails in trees are not going tp appreciate man made stunts and the limited amount of destruction that MB trails make.

I think the isue with nails in live trees is less about the health of the tree and more about the structure itself. When trees move in the wind, so does the structure nailed to it.

The other concern is the nail itself. If the area the stunt is in eventually gets logged, the nail embedded in the tree that gets cut down could cause serious injury or death to a logger or mill worker.

[bullit_kid]

Originally posted by synchro
I think the isue with nails in live trees is less about the health of the tree and more about the structure itself. When trees move in the wind, so does the structure nailed to it.

The other concern is the nail itself. If the area the stunt is in eventually gets logged, the nail embedded in the tree could be cut down and cause serious injury or death to a logger or mill worker.

mark, a tree 2 feet thick doesnt move move at only 3 or 4 feet up the tree



:???:

[synchro]

Originally posted by bullit_kid
mark, a tree 2 feet thick doesnt move move at only 3 or 4 feet up the tree



:???:

Good point Ross. However, I am thinking about stunts I've seen where stringers are nailed into trees 6-12ft up. I have seen stunts like this in the wind where you can watch the tree and stunts moving back and forth a little bit. If you absolutely have to nail into a tree I would rather see it topped off.

I think one thing most of us recognize that when trees are cut for trailbuilding, it is usually only a few trees. It's not like we are doing a clearcut for a housing development or lumber production. There has even been a great suggestion about how taking tees from a dense stand can be beneficial for the forest. In the whole scheme of things, considering how many live trees actually get cut for all the trails out there, it's not a negative impact on the forest.

I'd just like to reiterate that I don't think cutting youg cedars on the Shore is a good idea simply because there are so few cedars around. This may not be the case in other areas though.

[Midas]

I never use live or fresh fallen cedar for rungs, it just doens't see rihgt, it is a huge waste. I find the old huge cedars fallen from when cypress was logged those thing are amazing and you can get soooo many slats out of them too.

[synchro]

Originally posted by shor3 whor3
I never use live or fresh fallen cedar for rungs, it just doens't see rihgt, it is a huge waste. I find the old huge cedars fallen from when cypress was logged those thing are amazing and you can get soooo many slats out of them too.

yeah they work the best, wood is nice and dry, splits real easy and like you say, tons o'rungs

[BURKE PHANTOMS]

Agreed, anytime we build to a live tree we stay under six feet. If we have to go higher we build re-inforcement underneath. As for future logging there is no way that the nail would stay in the tree once you remove the stringer. As for rungs, dead fall is the only way to go. With a nice splitter you can cut 2X4's all day long