Paying For Crap

[mudshArk]

Why is it in the mtb world there are so many large manufacturers of bogus equipment which have obviously had no R&D done whatsoever? If this were the automotive industry, there would be so many recalls on some products that some manufacturers could conceivebly go out of business, or heaven forbid actually have to make a product that works properly.

Yah, I know that there is a lot of crap in the car world as well, but it seems to me that the mtb world has a much higher percentage of rotten equipment than they do.

And why do we have to pay so much for these parts if they are not tested and approved? Why are we paying over $2000 for a frame that cost only a few hundred to buy out of Tiawan? Or over $25 for seals that cost only $3.50 from a supplier? Eveything is so ridiculously overpriced that I wonder how much longer I can afford this sport.

Have we fallen for marketing hype and been so blinded by next years new colours that we fail to notice the deficiencies or lack of improvements? Or have we bent ourselves over the perverbial hood of the car and asked for this load of crap to be rammed in our faces the hard way?







Pardon the rant but i have been at work for nearly 24hrs now and just need to vent.

[snortpickle]

Hrrmm.. yeah stuff IS getting ridiculously expensive. But I don't think it's some evil plot to keep us broke. Might be interesting to have some of the "industry people"(tm) on this board explain how the markup on mtb products is justified. Dom?

[davet]

You're not just paying for the product. You have to pay for the engineer who designed it, the prototypes, the testing, the machinery that had to be designed to build it, the marketing and the advertising.

As for the car industry, Hyundai made absolute garbage for alot of years, they're still around.

Try designing and building and marketing a product yourself, then sell it for only how much it cost to produce. Let's see how long you are in business for.

I'd like to hear some of the "industry guys" comments on this as well.

[BAC5.2]

Im not an "Industry person" (TM), but markup isn't exactly what you think it is.

Working at a shop, I know exactly how much things are marked up. You think the bike industry is bad?

You spend 2g's on a frame that may only cost 700 to make in Japan, but the R&D and the company over head all are factored into it. Several companies are barely making a profit on the frames. Coming from personal experience in pro-dealing a frame, if I paid manufacturer cost, then everyone is getting a hell of a deal.

You notice the mark up so much because there are so many of us in the "industry" (be it shop employee or bike maker), that let the prices leak out. It's no secret that a $40 part from QBP is going to cost the customer $75 or so (which is dead on par with MSRP by the way).

You think bikes are bad? What do you get with $225 USD for a bike? Pro-tapers, grips, shifters, front and rear derailuers, and maybe a stem. You get an entire front end. OR you can buy one pair of Oakley sunglasses.

Markup? I think so.

To let you in on a secret about markup, I just spent $94 on a pair of Oakley Magnesium Switch sunglasses. Almost makes you think that the bike industry might just be giving you a better deal than you want to admit to.

If you didn't know that a $40 part would cost you $75 bucks, then you would never know about the mark up.

Just keep telling yourself "At least it's cheaper than skiing"

[sanrensho]

Originally posted by BAC5.2
You spend 2g's on a frame that may only cost 700 to make in Japan

They still import frames from Japan? Aside from a handful of Rivendell road frames, I thought the vast majority of frames were imported from Taiwan and China.

Also, overseas shipping can double the cost of an item, once you factor in trucking from factory to overseas port, container shipment, customs broker fees, duties, trucking from port to assembly factory here in North America, loss from shipping damage (which is covered by insurance but raises your shipping costs per unit), etc.

[Nelson]

Originally posted by mudshArk
Why are we paying over $2000 for a frame that cost only a few hundred to buy out of Tiawan? Or over $25 for seals that cost only $3.50 from a supplier? Eveything is so ridiculously overpriced that I wonder how much longer I can afford this sport.

why does a dog lick its ball? same thing....cause IT CAN.

[J dot]

norco VPS costs 14 bucks to produce after paint and decals (w/o shock)

[NickS]

J dot


norco VPS costs 14 bucks to produce after paint and decals (w/o shock) I dont think so the price of metal is more than jsut 14 $. plus factor in the wage of the person welding it and its a lot more than 14$.

[well ridden]

they get paid hardly anything over there

[sanrensho]

Originally posted by well ridden
they get paid hardly anything over there

You're missing the point. Mudshark is talking about the gap between the estimated cost from the factory and the actual retail price you pay for bike parts.

Where is this mythical "over there"? Bike parts are manufactured all over the world.

[ATN]

Originally posted by well ridden
they get paid hardly anything over there

Pippin says Taiwanese welders make 3 times as much money as their Canadian counterparts.

[blinded]

Originally posted by well ridden
they get paid hardly anything over there

i honestly dont know why some of you bother posting

[well ridden]

you shouldnt have posted. maybee pm'ed me

sorry if im pissing you off

[Dom@nsmb.com]

Originally posted by sanrensho
They still import frames from Japan? Aside from a handful of Rivendell road frames, I thought the vast majority of frames were imported from Taiwan and China.

No they don't, Japan lost another war when it became obvious they couldn't compet with Taiwan. Wich in turn is now facing the same situation with regard to China. But unlike Japan Taiwan has the A-Team, wasss thats you might ask?

The A-Team was founded by Taiwan's two largest bike makers, Giant Bicycles and Merida, along with a consortium of other Taiwanese builders. The group is commited to keeping Taiwan's bicycle industry alive, rather then watch it move to China.

Also, overseas shipping can double the cost of an item, once you factor in trucking from factory to overseas port, container shipment, customs broker fees, duties, trucking from port to assembly factory here in North America, loss from shipping damage (which is covered by insurance but raises your shipping costs per unit), etc

Very well put, also you have to take into account currency fluctuation.


Originally posted by Leroy McRodney
why does a dog lick its ball? same thing....cause IT CAN.

Because it has very little brain power and nothing better to do. So, unless you have something constructive to add stay out of this topic please.


Originally posted by J dot
norco VPS costs 14 bucks to produce after paint and decals (w/o shock)

This is possibly one of the most irresponsible post I have seen in a while.

Do you know for a fact or are you just assuming?

Do you think Norco peeps would appreciate this gesture of yours, I think not. Even though your claim is way of the mark some will still take its has the truth. Now Norco will get harras by missinformed peep about their outrageous (insert sarcasm) mark up...and you wonder why not more of us come here:rolleyes:

Stop assuming and check your facts :mad:

[shiversc120]

Originally posted by Leroy McRodney
why does a dog lick its ball? same thing....cause IT CAN. i donno about you but if i could lick my balls.. i wouldent :rolleyes:

[speed metal]

Originally posted by ATN
Pippin says Taiwanese welders make 3 times as much money as their Canadian counterparts.

Are you sure you heard right, 'cuz I don't believe that for a second.

[ATN]

Originally posted by speed metal
Are you sure you heard right, 'cuz I don't believe that for a second.

I'm pretty sure it's true, too bad the Gear forum got nuked, I'd like to look at that thread again.

Still, we can all be sure Taiwanese welders at least as much as Canadians, no sweat shops.

[endorphin]

a long time ago I stopped hating stores for charging markups. I realized that is how they make the money that keeps the lights on and feeds their families. If the markup was so large, there would be a store coming along that charged less and provided the same service to take the market. The reason you don't see that is the markup is not extreme. Bikes are a relatively high risk, low volume product, and so markups will be higher. If a bike (or component) doesn't sell in the current model year, the store will likely not make anything on it, having to mark it down. As for manufacturers, they are all competing for your money, and yes there are some brands out there that charge less, so why aren't you buying those? They charge less since they spend less on R&D and don't have the latest features that you want, right?

Thinking about it, why does a pair of Roach pants (name brand, stylee product, low volume production) only cost $149 when they are made of heavy durable fabric and a pair of designer jeans made of denim (high volume production of common product) sell for $80?

[MattK8588]

You've also got to think about how you use your equipment. People on this board aren't the average cyclist. It's kind of like a rally car racer or serious off road enthusiast asking why the auto world has such a high percentage of crappy product. Most auto products aren't built to accomodate their uses.

[switch]

Originally posted by J dot
norco VPS costs 14 bucks to produce after paint and decals (w/o shock)

No - it's more like a couple hundred dollars for the front triangle.

[brodie_andy]

I thought bout this back a couple months ago and i saw a post on pinkbike and draco a frame making comapyny explain the cost out and they didnt make that much of a profit. i am not saying all companies run like this but i like the post before "Why does a dog lick it's balls? Because it CAN." We are sucker who are willing to pay. what we buy other get profits its a bussiness that runs steep.

[Nelson]

Originally posted by Dom@nsmb.com
Because it has very little brain power and nothing better to do. So, unless you have something constructive to add stay out of this topic please.

well its true, companies can make things extremeley expensive for that exact reason...THEY CAN. A monster T arch is like $150 and costs them like 10 bucks to make maybe less (this numer is correct by the way, it doesnt cost much at all to pour some aluminum into a mold and polish it). But if someone breaks their monster arch, as long as its cheaper than buying a new fork they will buy the arch.

In the car world, there are tons of companies making the same product by the thousands and there are less middle men if at all any. (materials to honda to dealer to customer.) whereas in the MTB world, there arent many companies and they dont make the product in large numbers. Also there are tons of middle men (Aluminum refinery to aluminum company to Shimano to distrbutor to shop to customer to taxes).

just a thought,

Nelson

[switch]

I don't mind things being expensive when they have to be, but $40 for a Hayes 8" mounting adapter? :S

[*GiMpY_jR*]

ouch i paid 20 for mine

[snowboarder]

^ yea exactly, i asked how much and 8in rotor and adaptor would cost and they said like $86 with a 10% discount since im special. so i told them to forget it cuz i could spend like $40.

i dont think this helped but im just sharing my experiance

[trail worker]

markup is a pain.alot of times shops even charge more than the MSRP,and that in itself should be a crime.
My main gripe with the industry is that there are not enough companies making replacement parts for things like hayes and marzocchi products.what i mean is: sure,it's nice to be able to support a local machinist like dangerboy cnc.but i mean,it's still not an economical replacement part.
everything is overpriced in the biking industry.take for example brake pads for a MX bike.MX pads are cheaper,twice as big and last longer than you're stock hayes pads.

BTW:
taiwanese welder's are just as experienced and certified as any canadian welders.in some instances even more so because they are welding such large amounts of frames.and we all know that practice makes perfect.
they are paid on par with what you would make in canada.
that is from several sources,not just some stupid fact i made up in my head.

[jeffro]

The thing that I fail to understand is why so few people "get" that the actual building of a part and the material involved is such a SMALL percentage of the true cost of that part. Everyone's always like "well that little chunk of metal is only worth a few bucks, why should I pay $30 for it?"

The reason is design, testing, overhead, shipping, packaging and then bike shop costs. There is alot more that goes into a part than the cost of the material alone. It also has everything to do with volume. Not that many of us buy high-end bike equipment. Fewer products=higher prices. Either learn to deal or go get into something cheap.

You know, like golf. Where a simple stick of metal costs $800.

:rolleyes:

[davet]

Originally posted by Leroy McRodney
well its true, companies can make things extremeley expensive for that exact reason...THEY CAN. A monster T arch is like $150 and costs them like 10 bucks to make maybe less (this numer is correct by the way, it doesnt cost much at all to pour some aluminum into a mold and polish it). But if someone breaks their monster arch, as long as its cheaper than buying a new fork they will buy the arch.

Nelson

Where can I buy a CNC machine that and hire an engineer to build me a Monster T arch for under your all inclusive $10? If all it takes is pouring some aluminum into a mold, why don't you start making them in your backyard. Actually tell how to ship something here from Italy for $10.00.

You just don't get it do you. Read the posts on this thread and think about it. Every product they sell has to pay for the research and development. Lower demand products (like replacement arches and crowns) carry a higher amount of overhead.

[Dom@nsmb.com]

Originally posted by davet
Where can I buy a CNC machine that and hire an engineer to build me a Monster T arch for under your all inclusive $10? If all it takes is pouring some aluminum into a mold, why don't you start making them in your backyard. Actually tell how to ship something here from Italy for $10.00.

You just don't get it do you. Read the posts on this thread and think about it. Every product they sell has to pay for the research and development. Lower demand products (like replacement arches and crowns) carry a higher amount of overhead.

Davet,
You hit the nail on the head.

Originally posted by Leroy McRodney
no way blaine...you can buy a brand new DJIII for $219

Leroy,
Your post just goes to prove what I said earlier, too many peeps assume too much based on hear say or mostly hot air. ;)

[Nelson]

Originally posted by Dom@nsmb.com
Davet,
You hit the nail on the head.



Leroy,
Your post just goes to prove what I said earlier, too many peeps assume too much based on hear say or mostly hot air. ;)

Strange dom, but last time I went to work, we were selling DJIIIs for $219 canadian. Hell dom, if you want a JR-T PRO you can get it for $650.

As for the monster T arches, they arent CNC And there isnt Much R and D at all. Reason being there isnt R&D is beacuse Anything you make out of half inch aluminum thats relitavley short will be super strong no matter what shape it is...thats why the arch looks like an M. If anything, having a huge arch with a bend at the top is weaker and serves only a cosmetic value.

And to the people saying you cant CNC for $10,

1. I didnt say it was CNCd, its FORGED...as in put in a mold.

2. There isnt a guy that sits there and pours the metal, its all done by computer all the guy does its emtpy the molds and close the mold then pushes a butoon then walks away for 10 minutes.
how do I know this you might ask? Its my dads Job.....

3. I think that ive justified the arch thing, but what about QR20 Tabs? I belive its $60 for a set of 2, My dad can Machine a pair for under $5 in materials, and it takes him an hour...by hand...
so whats it costing marzocchi to do it with a CNC?

[Nelson]

Originally posted by davet
Where can I buy a CNC machine that and hire an engineer to build me a Monster T arch for under your all inclusive $10? If all it takes is pouring some aluminum into a mold, why don't you start making them in your backyard.

Note: I said it costs them, of course they have to mark it up to make a profit, and then pay shipping, but i dont think markup and shipping is like $140....

If you want I Can Machine you a monster T arch CNC for $30....if you want it polished at another $10....I dont have robots that do it for me. :P

[Dom@nsmb.com]

Originally posted by Leroy McRodney
1. I didnt say it was CNCd, its FORGED...as in put in a mold.

Your still not taking into account all other cost related to production.


2. There isnt a guy that sits there and pours the metal, its all done by computer all the guy does its emtpy the molds and close the mold then pushes a butoon then walks away for 10 minutes.
how do I know this you might ask? Its my dads Job.....

Yeah, and computer can be had in a cereal boxe for free.


3. I think that ive justified the arch thing, but what about QR20 Tabs? I belive its $60 for a set of 2, My dad can Machine a pair for under $5 in materials, and it takes him an hour...by hand...
so whats it costing marzocchi to do it with a CNC?

No, you did not even came close to justifying anything.

If I follow your logic, your Dad can, design, produce, store, pack, ship, pay duty and GST from Italy all the way to Canada for 10.00$.

As for Marzocchi production, this is not your bizz at all.

Can't you see why your claim make no sense at all?


Originally posted by Leroy McRodney
Note: I said it costs them, of course they have to mark it up to make a profit, and then pay shipping, but i dont think markup and shipping is like $140....

If you want I Can Machine you a monster T arch CNC for $30....if you want it polished at another $10....I dont have robots that do it for me. :P

OH yeah, here is a challenge for you Leroy. If you can design, produce, store, pack, ship, pay duty and GST all of this for 10.00$ do it and open a components company - since it cost nothing like everything else in the bike bizz- and you will become the biggest company in the world because no one will be able to rival your prices.

Of course, cost reduction being such a new and innovative concept no one knows anything about it probably because as an industry we are all a bunch of uneducated incompetent (sarcasm through the roof).

GET YOUR FRIGGIN FACTS STRAIGHT AND STOP ASSUMING.

[Dom@nsmb.com]

Leroy,

Here is a more reasonnable challenge for you. Can you explain or list every single step of a production run from design all the way to the shops?

[trail worker]

Originally posted by jeffro

The reason is design, testing, overhead, shipping, packaging and then bike shop costs. There is alot more that goes into a part than the cost of the material alone. It also has everything to do with volume. Not that many of us buy high-end bike equipment. Fewer products=higher prices. Either learn to deal or go get into something cheap.

:rolleyes:

true.when i talked to the guy's at envy a few years ago,sort of when they were first starting out,they had to spend around $10 000 to get the design tested,patented, inputed into the mastercam computer. he said making the product cost virtually nothing,but all the research and steps inputed above made it one helluva expensive bashgaurd prototype!

[davet]

Originally posted by Leroy McRodney
Strange dom, but last time I went to work, we were selling DJIIIs for $219 canadian. Hell dom, if you want a JR-T PRO you can get it for $650.

As for the monster T arches, they arent CNC And there isnt Much R and D at all. Reason being there isnt R&D is beacuse Anything you make out of half inch aluminum thats relitavley short will be super strong no matter what shape it is...thats why the arch looks like an M. If anything, having a huge arch with a bend at the top is weaker and serves only a cosmetic value.

And to the people saying you cant CNC for $10,

1. I didnt say it was CNCd, its FORGED...as in put in a mold.

2. There isnt a guy that sits there and pours the metal, its all done by computer all the guy does its emtpy the molds and close the mold then pushes a butoon then walks away for 10 minutes.
how do I know this you might ask? Its my dads Job.....

3. I think that ive justified the arch thing, but what about QR20 Tabs? I belive its $60 for a set of 2, My dad can Machine a pair for under $5 in materials, and it takes him an hour...by hand...
so whats it costing marzocchi to do it with a CNC?

Ask your Dad how much that machine is worth that he pushes the button on. Oh and how much the engineer charged to design the program to have this machine do it's work. And what the engineering cost were to design the product from nothing. You might think it's easy to copy an existing product, but someone had think it up in the first place. Oh and will your Dad be able to produce all these products and then stand behind them on warranty all for the $10.00. Oh and while you're at it, try pulling your head out of your ass.

[Captain Da]

yeah i don't really worry about the mark-up on biking stuff - its nothing compared to, say, nike shoes.

i volunteered at a bike shop last winter, and they made very, very little money in a day. without the mark-up they wouldn't survive. some days there were only one or two customers. you can't assume that just because the shop is there and that they have lots of mechanics to service your bike and carry expensive components that they're doing well.

take the bike cellar for example.

[FatHack]

Originally posted by Leroy McRodney

3. I think that ive justified the arch thing, but what about QR20 Tabs? I belive its $60 for a set of 2, My dad can Machine a pair for under $5 in materials, and it takes him an hour...by hand...
so whats it costing marzocchi to do it with a CNC?

Ok, so the tabs are 60$ and it takes your Dad an hour to make them. Great, so you personally can get a pair for 5$ while your Dad is on the clock spending someone else's nickle. If you factor in design time for not copying someone else's patent, the fact that you'd be hard pressed to find a machine shop that only charges $60 an hour who you would trust to make a part that your life depends on. You're proably looking at atleast 3 hours shop time, at the bargain rate of 60$/hr (based on the original cost of the tabs). Wow, the $60 tabs now cost 180$. It's one thing when you're making your own one off's and time isn't a factor, but when the average person has to get a shop to produce something for them it gets really pricey. As for materials, a decent chunk of T-6 starts to get pricey, also keep in mind that if something is cnc'd there is usually twice as much material that gets wasted when the product is cut out. That isn't even taking into account, shipping, customs, and when it gets to the shop, someone still has to make a buck off of it.

Not the most coherent answer, but I find some of the mentalitites in this thread a little ignorant of how industry works and get the feeling that those who post the "it costs 14$ to make a VPS" haven't been around cycling or the industry long enough to see the evolution that the sport and products have gone through. The bikes and parts that we see today didn't just magically appear, it's been a long, slow and expensive process.

[ATN]

There was a similar argument over tires.

You can pick up 4 tires for a car for $99 US through Discount Tire Co. Even if you went to Jenson USA (a large volume mailorder and online store like DTC) you'd be hard pressed to find decent DH/FR tires for under $40 US each.

You could say that the car tires have more rubber in them, so they should be more expensive. However, the amount of rubber is a moot point compared to all the other stuff. They have to design, test, make molds, etc... with making molds the biggest obstacle.

The car tires can be manufactured in much bigger runs than bike tires, splitting the cost between hundreds or thousands times as many people.

If you say "You are comparing a lowest-end car tire to a higher end bike tire" you can also do this using a $15 US clearout semislick. Less rubber in that, the car tire still has more rubber for the money.

The only real exception to this would be tires that are spec'ed on all Costco, CCM, etc bikes, because they (and the bikes that they are on) are produced in much bigger quantities than the bikes & tires we ride.

If we didn't have to be on the cutting edge, and breaking everything, then maybe we could get lower prices: manufacturers could design it once, sell it lots, and not warrenty a quarter of what they send out (ficticious talk out of ass number, but you get the picture). Until then, Canadian Tire is always there for you when you want a cheap bike.

[willbed]

Originally posted by Leroy McRodney
Note: I said it costs them, of course they have to mark it up to make a profit, and then pay shipping, but i dont think markup and shipping is like $140....

If you want I Can Machine you a monster T arch CNC for $30....if you want it polished at another $10....I dont have robots that do it for me. :P


Well, Im taking one right away, and tell you dad that when it breaks in my face Im gonna sue him, so he better have some good lawyers and insurances...

[nick1111]

Originally posted by ATN


You can pick up 4 tires for a car for $99 US through Discount Tire Co. Even if you went to Jenson USA (a large volume mailorder and online store like DTC) you'd be hard pressed to find decent DH/FR tires for under $40 US each.

Those aren't exactly "good" car tires, either.

[switch]

Originally posted by ATN
You can pick up 4 tires for a car for $99 US through Discount Tire Co. Even if you went to Jenson USA (a large volume mailorder and online store like DTC) you'd be hard pressed to find decent DH/FR tires for under $40 US each.

One area where there's unusual gap is in shocks. A set of 4 good performance shocks for a car costs the same as one performance MTB rear shock. And the car shocks will last longer.

[ATN]

Originally posted by switch
One area where there's unusual gap is in shocks. A set of 4 good performance shocks for a car costs the same as one performance MTB rear shock. And the car shocks will last longer.

Plus the car companies make 4x as many as them per buyer.

[Derek]

If you want cheap tools, jerseys, bags, packs, knives, tires, TUBES, maintenence stuff, books, etc. Go to mountain equipment co-op. I have spent hundreds of dollars there, and i have yet to find a bad product. Now, they don't sell frames or alot of compenents, but if you are interested in tools, etc. Go there. They have lots of stuff at an unbeatable price, and amazing quality. It costs $5 for a lifetime membership. And basic mountain bike tubes are $2.25 each! Sure, they are not a beefy as an IRC DH tube, but you can get 5 of these tubes for the price of 2 axiom tubes at a bike shop.

Check out their site www.mec.ca

[the bicycle boy]

who cares, cough up, keeps the $$ goin around in the industry.

[endorphin]

quote from somewhere: " There is always someone who can make something 1/2 as well for 3/4 the cost"

[endorphin]

Originally posted by switch
One area where there's unusual gap is in shocks. A set of 4 good performance shocks for a car costs the same as one performance MTB rear shock. And the car shocks will last longer.

So now we are comparing the cost of heavy steel shocks with high performance light weight bike shocks? Better would be to compare the price of bike shocks with formula 1 race car shocks.

I guess you could say the shocks on Canadian Tire bikes are closer to generic car shocks?

[switch]

Some auto shocks do not weigh that much (Koni makes some light weight shocks), and when you consider that they aren't dealing with only a couple hundred pounds of weight, but instead they deal with transfer weights of up to a couple thousand pounds, they're design for durability is significantly better.

MTB shock failure rates are very high. If the failure rate was the same for automobiles, consumers would go nuts. MTBers put up with a lot with regards to rear shocks. I'd be more than happy to have an extra pound added to the weight of my rear shock if it meant that the shock wouldn't blow because I added some compression or rebound damping.