Does a singlepivot lock out in rebound?

[DangerousDean]

My friend seems to think that a single piviot, when coming out of compression, that everything locks up and you cant pedal it, is this true? i dont see how this would happen


also on 4bar, when in full compression does the smae thing happen?

[m33p]

he's on crack.

Maybe he means brake jack, and even then hes way off, brake jack tends to make your bike sqaut when you apply the brakes, stiffening the suspension and making it bounce over rough stuff.

[DangerousDean]

Originally posted by m33p
he's on crack.

Maybe he means brake jack, and even then hes way off, brake jack tends to make your bike sqaut when you apply the brakes, stiffening the suspension and making it bounce over rough stuff.

yeah i duno lol..

god this is fun, we're having a big fight over wheel paths and suspension designs

WEEE

ahah and i still dont know if i should get a single piviot or a 4bar

[theafrostud]

Dunno about coming out of compression, thats a new one on me. A single pivot design is more prone to brake jack ie. under heavy braking the rear end tends to lock itself out or at least the suspension action is impaired. Many of the manufacturers making single pivot designs make floating brake arms to get around this, they isolate the braking and suspension actions. I guess it also depends on bike useage, generally race orientated bikes have the floating option as speed is greater and therefore braking use is heavier.

[XXX_er]

with single pivot the rear axle effectively ends up being one of the pivots in the rear suspension and you get brake jack unless you have a floating rear hub .Same thing use to happen on dirt bikes ,the dirt bike mfgers were 1st into floating rear brakes well over 20 years ago.

a number of DH frame builders go single pivot,they are light and simple.

You would still be able to pedal a single pivot but the shock would extended whenever you get on the brakes and you get brake chatter on bumps.

for freeride walking beam is sposed to be best,I asked PIP why not horst link and he said walking beam is better for freeride ... dont remember the reason but he is the man.

[WBC]

I think Pip's only reasoning is durability. I can say in my experience from soley a performance standpoint, the 4bar is superior.

Buut...if you're new to FS, I'd step into a non-horst for one reason, it will give you more choice in frames further down the road. Going from a 4bar to a singlepivot is soooo hard.

[XXX_er]

so you are saying go walking beam over single pivot ,OR ?


Just so we are on the same page here ,I think of horst link as a pivot JUST in front of the rear axle ala Specialized (which isolates the rear axle from swingarm forces)and walking beam has NO pivot infront of the axle like on the Scream

either could be refered to as 4 bar ...depending on who you might be talking to

and I understand it costs a mfger extra to pay licensing fees for the horst link does it not?so maybe they skip building the horst link rather than fluff with the extra cost and hassle?

[DangerousDean]

so what would be the best first fully bike for me? lol

[theafrostud]

Originally posted by XXX_er
so you are saying go walking beam over single pivot ,OR ?


Just so we are on the same page here ,I think of horst link as a pivot JUST in front of the rear axle ala Specialized (which isolates the rear axle from swingarm forces)and walking beam has NO pivot infront of the axle like on the Scream

either could be refered to as 4 bar ...depending on who you might be talking to

and I understand it costs a mfger extra to pay licensing fees for the horst link does it not?so maybe they skip building the horst link rather than fluff with the extra cost and hassle?

If you skip the horst link then essentially you have a single pivot with a linkage activating the shock. Or at least thats the way I have always looked at it!

In terms of what bike to go for, I dont think the suspension design is so much of an issue in terms of getting avoiding having to go from 4 bar to single pivot in the future. If you look at the way things are evolving, I think that single pivot designs are going to become more rare. All the stalwarts of the single pivot design are starting to move on......Super 8 has gone to the V10, Bullit is being joined by the V8 which might not replace it but will certainly steal the Bullits thunder, my understanding from various sources is that Orange will replace the 222 with a non single pivot design.

Having said all that, you havent really said what you are using the bike for, which makes it kinda difficult to advise you on a new bike!

[XXX_er]

You are right but linkage does SOMETHING for pedaling and braking (and I'm not an engineer),ferinstance Giant calls their DH bike a "single pivot 4 bar linkage" no matter how many times i look at that bike I don't really understand how the rear suspension works .but apparently it works great

For a full suspension freeride you can't go wrong with banshee IMO,we've had no problems , it didnt break and it handles great

I think pip said walking beam was progressive and horst link was more linear

[m33p]

Single pivot is still #1 on the Dh racing circut for a reason. Simple, effective, cheap.

[Zedbra]

Originally posted by m33p
Single pivot is still #1 on the Dh racing circut for a reason. Simple, effective, cheap.

You bet, and the reason why companies use a 4 bar that acts like a single pivot is to keep the bb height down on a DH race bike, while still allowing for large travel.

My Turner is a perfect example of that design.

[GrimJack]

I hate to say the obvious, but...

Visit all your local shops. Throw a leg over all the bikes you can. Don't just boot around the parking lot, leave 'em your wallet, borrow a helmet, and go find some stairs. Huck some stuff. Ride up some stuff.

When you're done, you'll understand the difference between different suspension designs.

If you can't tell the difference, buy the cheap one. :) Seriously, when I started riding I couldn't tell the difference in ride characteristics from one design to the next. I figure if you can't tell, then you won't miss the extra features, and by the time you can, it's time to buy a new ride anyway.

[m33p]

Originally posted by Zedbra
You bet, and the reason why companies use a 4 bar that acts like a single pivot is to keep the bb height down on a DH race bike, while still allowing for large travel.

My Turner is a perfect example of that design.

Your turner is still a single pivot tho, the axle path is a constant arc. It's a single pivot combine with links to move the shock basically.

[theafrostud]

Originally posted by m33p
Single pivot is still #1 on the Dh racing circut for a reason. Simple, effective, cheap.
Dont know if I would totally agree with that, those that are on single pivots are on funky variations of them, there are very few true single pivot designs left. AND, I have read numerous confessions from different single pivot manufacturers that the design is getting a bit old and tired at the moment, the fact that Santa Cruz, a stalwart of the design over the years, are moving away from it is testament to that.

[switch]

Originally posted by m33p
Your turner is still a single pivot tho, the axle path is a constant arc. It's a single pivot combine with links to move the shock basically.

Wouldn't you like to own one of those frames? :drool:

[Zedbra]

Originally posted by theafrostud
Dont know if I would totally agree with that, those that are on single pivots are on funky variations of them, there are very few true single pivot designs left. AND, I have read numerous confessions from different single pivot manufacturers that the design is getting a bit old and tired at the moment, the fact that Santa Cruz, a stalwart of the design over the years, are moving away from it is testament to that.

I don't agree with ya on that one. Santa Cruz's line of single pivots includes: The Heckler, Bullit, Super 8 (coming back),Superlight.

Other frames of the top of my head: Turner, Chumba Wumba, Rocky Mountain - all have single pivot.

The songle pivot feels more responsive, and there will always be a desire to have that.

[lockemiester]

I am a big fan of single pivot designs. They are simple, reliable, and with the new technology in rear shocks, they pedal great. They are a snap to maintain, are responsive and, as stated above, on the top of the leaderboard almost all the time.

And like Zedbra said, the Turner, Chumba, RM series, Mountain Cycles bikes and the Giant are all variations of single pivot designs. Even the VPP bikes are variations of Single pivot. Between designing better rear shocks and developing linkage designs into Single pivot bikes, they will always be around.

[theafrostud]

Originally posted by Zedbra
I don't agree with ya on that one. Santa Cruz's line of single pivots includes: The Heckler, Bullit, Super 8 (coming back),Superlight.

Other frames of the top of my head: Turner, Chumba Wumba, Rocky Mountain - all have single pivot.

The songle pivot feels more responsive, and there will always be a desire to have that.
Was going to argue my corner here but......................Super 8 is making a come back?!?!? oooooh, do tell us more!!!!

[theafrostud]

Anyway, I still maintain that a basic single pivot design is beginning to die out although the single pivot design itself is not as it is having new life breathed into it by some funky new variations on it (as we have started referring to them as!!).

[switch]

Originally posted by Zedbra
Other frames of the top of my head: Turner, Chumba Wumba, Rocky Mountain - all have single pivot.

...Cove Peeler ;) :D