Good idea dude "Liability if one biffs a stunt"

[Oldfart]

Lets discuss this one. My belief is that most people take responsibility for their own actions and suffer the consequences of their own unfortunate accidents. But I see more and more people trying to blame others. I investigate sports accident claims for a living so I see a lot of this. Its frustrating to have to handle this kind of crap. There are certainly many valid claims too, no question about that. Those claims tend to be easier to handle.

I live and ride on the North Shore. I do not huck or ride anything remotely scarry. When I go down a trail I am unfamiliar with, I tend to walk stuff and scope things out. If I can't see where something is headed, I don't ride blindly assuming I won't ride off a jump. Is that not normal???

So buddy goes snowboarding and enters a Terrain Park. Is it not obvious that there are jumps and feature designed to let you fly? What do people think? Where is the liability line? When is a trail builder responsible?

[LeeLau]

Originally posted by Oldfart
I investigate sports accident claims for a living so I see a lot of this.

You do? Are you going to be at Thursdays; Mtn View Park meeting? If so I'd like to meet and chat

[LeeLau]

Originally posted by LeeLau
You do? Are you going to be at Thursdays; Mtn View Park meeting? If so I'd like to meet and chat oh yes - see this

http://www.nsmba.bc.ca/resources.asp - under Legal below

[Oldfart]

I think I'll be there. Nothing in the way yet. You've had lunch with my significant other. She's at Blakes, labour and employment. Says's your IP.

[gooch]

Originally posted by Oldfart
Lets discuss this one. My belief is that most people take responsibility for their own actions and suffer the consequences of their own unfortunate accidents. But I see more and more people trying to blame others. I investigate sports accident claims for a living so I see a lot of this. Its frustrating to have to handle this kind of crap. There are certainly many valid claims too, no question about that. Those claims tend to be easier to handle.

I live and ride on the North Shore. I do not huck or ride anything remotely scarry. When I go down a trail I am unfamiliar with, I tend to walk stuff and scope things out. If I can't see where something is headed, I don't ride blindly assuming I won't ride off a jump. Is that not normal???

So buddy goes snowboarding and enters a Terrain Park. Is it not obvious that there are jumps and feature designed to let you fly? What do people think? Where is the liability line? When is a trail builder responsible?
I think htis may have been discussed already once or twice. Nicely and not so nicely. I do believe that the general polulation of this site thinks that the person who got injured was more to blame than the mountain or the teachers, or the school district. But the way this world is turning no one takes responsiblity for themsleves ore their actions anymore so why should this case be any different

[dirttorpedo]

I so hate liability laws. If the trail/stunt is well signed and somebody makes a concious decision to ride it and they hurt themselves, well I'm sorry but too bad so sad! I'm tired of paying for other peoples bad decisions.......Er, of course on the other hand, please Mr. Campbell don't cancell my no fault health insurance/free back country rescue, etc. Really the drop was only 3' to tranny.

[clay@nsmb.com]

Adults and teenagers alike should be able to use common sense and have the ability to assess risk.

The blame game south of heaven (USA) is out of control and we don't need that trend pouring over the border.

[sanrensho]

Originally posted by Oldfart
I live and ride on the North Shore. I do not huck or ride anything remotely scarry. When I go down a trail I am unfamiliar with, I tend to walk stuff and scope things out. If I can't see where something is headed, I don't ride blindly assuming I won't ride off a jump. Is that not normal???

No, you're not normal, judging from what I see on our trails. People are more interested in "pushing the limits," "taking risks" and "progression," for whatever underlying reason.

Personally, I would rather take minimal risks and progress slowly so that I can ride injury-free and enjoy my passion year-round. (Family and work are also a factor.) But I think this view is definitely in the minority.

[LeeLau]

More people could benefit from relying less on their cool 9" travel bikes to compensate for the fact that they suck ass at riding.

More people could also benefit from using their judgment before they try doing something tough.

But this would deny human nature

Please extend this to other sports... like say jello wrestling. Discuss

[Sharon]

Its interesting why Blackcomb settled. I guess they figured they couldn't win.

Jello wrestling is really slippery, especially when your not wearing

[Millstone]

Originally posted by LeeLau
More people could benefit from relying less on their cool 9" travel bikes to compensate for the fact that they suck ass at riding.

Wow that's going to spark some debate. I agree though.

[gooch]

Originally posted by LeeLau
More people could benefit from relying less on their cool 9" travel bikes to compensate for the fact that they suck ass at riding.

More people could also benefit from using their judgment before they try doing something tough.
Are you talking to me punk?

[LeeLau]

Originally posted by gooch
Are you talking to me punk?

Depends on whether its skinny or wide.

You just have 7" - ignore whatever your wife tells you.

[hizzity]

i agree with you. I don't like to be in pain and I am very carefull on a trail that I have never been down before and will get off and walk around somthings that may look abit skechy. for me it is just common sence to make sure what you are riding is in your level of riding.

[clay@nsmb.com]

Devils Advocate scenario:

I break my back doing a 20 foot drop on whistler.

I am bitter at the world for for having to live the rest of my days confined to a wheelchair; unable to walk, feed myself nor enjoy sex ever again.

I hate everyone and everything, screw it I decide to sue them all.

I eventually win a huge settlement and spend the rest of my life drowning my depression with expensive things.

Do I care if you hate me for doing such a selfish thing? No, I really couldn't care less. I deserve it for the shitty hand I was dealt.

[gooch]

Originally posted by LeeLau
Depends on whether its skinny or wide.

You just have 7" - ignore whatever your wife tells you.

OH SNAP! :cuffs:

[sanrensho]

Also, we're essentially programming youth to become risk takers and daredevils due to the emphasis on extreme or adrenaline sports. I'm as guilty of this as anybody else since my passions are riding and snowboarding.

The issue of liability will just get worse and worse.

[Bukkake]

When you paralyze yourself you have to sue someone so you can survive. I don't blame him anymore for wanting to survive.

I blame the system for not making the care and services neccesary to survive after being paralyzed free.

If these services were free and people who are injured were automaticly cared for no-one would have to sue for hurting themselves.

Dont blame him blame the system.

[Bukkake]

Furthermore I bet a large percentage of teenagers have absolutely no concept of how easy it is to get paralyzed
snowboarding.

You can blame the parents for that one.

[gooch]

Originally posted by Barak
When you paralyze yourself you have to sue someone so you can survive. I don't blame him anymore for wanting to survive.

I blame the system for not making the care and services neccesary to survive after being paralyzed free.

If these services were free and people who are injured were automaticly cared for no-one would have to sue for hurting themselves.

Dont blame him blame the system. Blame blame blame blame blah blah blah!!!!

How about taking responsibilty for your actions instead? How about his insurance should have covered it? Oh no insurance? How about taking responsiblity for having insurance? If everyone was automatically cared for for all these actions, you can imagine how high your taxes would be to pay for them..but judging from your previous posts I am going to conclude you don't pay any

[LeeLau]

I visited a buddy of mine who was paralyzed when he was getting rehab.

There were an awful lot of people in there who got messed up drinking and driving.

Of course, there were some WCB cases (like my buddy), and some with insurance. They'll have their financial needs taken care of.

There were some with no insurance who got hurt because of someone elses' fault.

Do you still think the medical system should take care of everyone in that boat?

Originally posted by Barak
When you paralyze yourself you have to sue someone so you can survive. I don't blame him anymore for wanting to survive.

I blame the system for not making the care and services neccesary to survive after being paralyzed free.

If these services were free and people who are injured were automaticly cared for no-one would have to sue for hurting themselves.

Dont blame him blame the system.

[Putty]

if I build a stunt and then fall of it and become paralized, can I sue myself?

[gooch]

Originally posted by putty
if I build a stunt and then fall of it and become paralized, can I sue myself?

If you can prove the builder was negligent you would win

That should be easy, cause I heard that the guy you are planning to sue is not the sharpest knife in the drawer

[Bukkake]

Originally posted by gooch
Blame blame blame blame blah blah blah!!!!

How about taking responsibilty for your actions instead? How about his insurance should have covered it? Oh no insurance? How about taking responsiblity for having insurance? If everyone was automatically cared for for all these actions, you can imagine how high your taxes would be to pay for them..but judging from your previous posts I am going to conclude you don't pay any


Way to pass judgement. I am 21 years old and I pay taxes and work full time fixing bikes for guys like you, but unlike other people
I believe in a political system that's more socialist in nature.

[Putty]

Originally posted by gooch
If you can prove the builder was negligent you would win

That should be easy, cause I heard that the guy you are planning to sue is not the sharpest knife in the drawer

yeah, he's a total tool

[Bukkake]

Originally posted by LeeLau
I
There were some with no insurance who got hurt because of someone elses' fault.

Do you still think the medical system should take care of everyone in that boat?


Everybody should be automaticly insured. Don't you guys see that there is more than enough funds for everybody it's just that
some people have way too much money and should be lowering their standards of living to something other than exhorbatantly
wasteful. Give back to the community. For the good of everyone.


For example. Say someone is a billionare, they should be giving up more than 99.5 percent of it. That's all anyone should ever need.

[Oldfart]

Good point barak and you too gooch. My impression which is supported by other people in the liability insurance arena, is that their is an unwritten philosophy about how to assign blame in catastrophic claims. It is better to have an insurance company pay to take care of these people than to have the public system do it. I agree with that but the problem I deal with, is the bumwad who twisted his ankle and couldn't work for two weeks, hires a lawyer to argue that the precedent set in the catastrophic incident is right on point concerning buddy with his sore friggin' ankle. Its the trickle down affect.

But at the same time, I think its good for society to have a reality check now and again. Sometimes, terribly injured people get shut out. Sometimes some one is careless and people are hurt as a result and the courts find liability.

I know the lawyers who act for Blackcomb. We used to use them. He is one of the best and I would strongly suspect, but I do not know, that Blackcomb settled for cheap because that lawyer presented Blackcombs case to the plaintiff's lawyer and scared the shit out of them. That lawyer did the same for me on one of my files. The Friday before the trial was to start, he offered $50,000 to my plaintiff. They had previously said anything under $350,000 would be taken as an insult. We were dealing with a person who collided with a teamate in a softball game going for a fly ball. She broke her neck but was not paralyzed, but was permanently injured. She took the $50k because our evidence showed she was sitting back and waiting to collect. Most of her damages were due to other factors and her evidence that there was liability was weak. She claimed the other fellow didn't call the ball when it was clearly hers to catch.

I know of several cases where some cyclists, road and mountain were terribly injured, even killed, but no claim was ever made. At the same time I handled a claim where the injured plaintiff claimed he was assaulted and battered during competition. He was, I kid you not, boxing! We did win that too.

But I think about coming down Old Peugeot up on Fromme, the mellowest trail up there, and some one has put a jump across the trail where I like to go fast but in a somewhat blind spot and I'm hurt. Some one changed the trail without warning. I'll be pissed off and I think there might be some one to blame as well as myself.

[Keefer]

Originally posted by Barak

For example. Say someone is a billionare, they should be giving up more than 99.5 percent of it. That's all anyone should ever need.

Right on, comrade.

Do you have a hammer and sickle painted on your ride?

[Bukkake]

Originally posted by Oldfart


But I think about coming down Old Peugeot up on Fromme, the mellowest trail up there, and some one has put a jump across the trail where I like to go fast but in a somewhat blind spot and I'm hurt. Some one changed the trail without warning. I'll be pissed off and I think there might be some one to blame as well as myself.


That is very true. I just find putting a dollar amount on pain and suffering so wierd...:S

[LeeLau]

Robert kennedy backs down for no one. I bet that Travis Murao idiot got very little out of intrawest.

wtf was the lawyer for the Richmond school district thinking asking for a jury trial?

Originally posted by Oldfart

But I think about coming down Old Peugeot up on Fromme, the mellowest trail up there, and some one has put a jump across the trail where I like to go fast but in a somewhat blind spot and I'm hurt. Some one changed the trail without warning. I'll be pissed off and I think there might be some one to blame as well as myself.

[Bukkake]

Originally posted by Keefer
Right on, comrade.

Do you have a hammer and sickle painted on your ride?

No but I have a Che Guevara poster in my room.

I'm not hardcore communist. I believe people should be at different levels of wealth depending on what work they do.
I just think everyone could be so much better off. Human nature does not allow it though cuz not many people are as un-greedy as me.

[gooch]

Originally posted by Barak
Way to pass judgement. I am 21 years old and I pay taxes and work full time fixing bikes for guys like you, but unlike other people
I believe in a political system that's more socialist in nature.

I fix my own bike most of the time, thansk for passing judgement as you put it, but on occasion I get guys like you, as you put it, to fix it if I can't. Good thing or you would not have a job eh?

Lets see, bike mechanic gets what? $14 to $18 per hour? I'll go $18 and be safe
40 hours per week, 50 weeks per year=$36,000- your basic personal exemption of around $6,000, I will forgo any further deductions just to be fun.

So $30,000 times 16% tax rate = $4,800 in taxes per year
That's about enough to pay for one day of intensive care for one person. It's about $10,000 US in the states btw. Now keeping in mind you have now not contributed to any other part of the services that you feel we should be supplying in your socialist system that you support.

So the way I see it if you feel we should be taking care of everyone for these injuries you will need to be getting a few night jobs to chip in with your share. Try 17 more full time ones and then you will almost pay as much taxes as I do in a year.

You logic is very flawed imo

[Putty]

yeah, but is one day of intensive care really worth 5 g. i mean it is if you are laying there dying, but is the value of it actually what it costs. or do cost, red tape, salaries, markups on medication, dwarf the cost of actually keeping someone in there?

[gooch]

Originally posted by putty
yeah, but is one day of intensive care really worth 5 g. i mean it is if you are laying there dying, but is the value of it actually what it costs. or do cost, red tape, salaries, markups on medication, dwarf the cost of actually keeping someone in there?

Well lets see according to Barak and his ideas we could really cut down on costs if:

1. Everyone worked for free
2. Companies charged nothing for medicine or equipment

Of course, then you would see how hard people that work for free work on average, if they ever show up, sober, or at all.

[gooch]

Originally posted by Barak
No but I have a Che Guevara poster in my room.

Well sorry, I didn't realize you were so devoted to the cause

[LeeLau]

Originally posted by Barak
For example. Say someone is a billionare, they should be giving up more than 99.5 percent of it. That's all anyone should ever need.

$5,000,000 doesn't go as far as it used to.

Wait, is that in US or Canadian?

[Putty]

I don't mean people should work for free, but things should cost what they are worth...including medicare. IMO

[gooch]

Originally posted by putty
I don't mean people should work for free, but things should cost what they are worth...including medicare. IMO
Tell that to someone that just spent $100,000 and 8 or nine years of post eduction going in debt on their education. I think are medical system is getting pretty screwy myself but the basis for this kids arguement is just ludacris

[gooch]

Originally posted by LeeLau
$5,000,000 doesn't go as far as it used to.

Wait, is that in US or Canadian? Relax Lee..you're a MULTI billionaire remember?

[Putty]

a lot of peeps spend that on school and end up making less. doctors got you over a barrel if you get screwed up hence the fees can be huge, kind of like when you break a der. hanger and ellsworth charges you 49 bucks for a 25 cent piece of aluminum.

but then, i am ranting.

[Bukkake]

Originally posted by gooch
Well lets see according to Barak and his ideas we could really cut down on costs if:

1. Everyone worked for free
2. Companies charged nothing for medicine or equipment




That's not what I said. I said : People work for money. Some people are rich some people are not so rich. No one is stupid rich. No one is stupid poor. I know I'm talking about a utopia which would require a dramatic universal shift in thinking and causes for motivation, but it would be possible if everyone would be satisfied with a modest house and basic luxeries.

No is satisfied with that though. Everyone wants the multi-acre estate and the collection of exotic cars and people will do anything to get it.

I am talking about a cap on wealth not an end to wages altogether.

Medical companies would still be paid for their services but they would be paid from a governing body not individuals.

[Bukkake]

Originally posted by gooch
Well sorry, I didn't realize you were so devoted to the cause

You can be a patronizing bastard you know that?

[LeeLau]

Originally posted by Barak
That's not what I said. I said : People work for money. Some people are rich some people are not so rich. No one is stupid rich. No one is stupid poor. I know I'm talking about a utopia which would require a dramatic universal shift in thinking and causes for motivation, but it would be possible if everyone would be satisfied with a modest house and basic luxeries.

No is satisfied with that though. Everyone wants the multi-acre estate and the collection of exotic cars and people will do anything to get it.

I am talking about a cap on wealth not an end to wages altogether.

Medical companies would still be paid for their services but they would be paid from a governing body not individuals.

Sounds like Norway. I found some good articles by doing a google on "norway disability compensation".

Then check out how much pressure their system is under and the size of their oil and gas fund to pay for all this.

[gooch]

Originally posted by Barak
You can be a patronizing bastard you know that?

That's not me, that's reality catching up with you

[Rat]

Barak somone in ethiopia might say the same thing to you. as they see you spinning around on your bike that is equal to 2 years wages. if they can get a job.

you are still in the top 99% wealthiest group on the plant. thanks to capitalisim thank you very much.

[Rat]

Back to the liability issue. My concern is that when the DNV does thier little "study" on mountian bikeing on fromme. By having a paper report detailing what is really going on they are setting themselves up for vastly increased liability. It reminds my of that 500 year old tree in tofino that stood in town for ever. as soon as they had an arborists report stating that it was a hazard they were obligated to do somthing about it.

Lee / Old fart have we opened the can of worms?

[dirttorpedo]

Yes, yes, yes, its our god given right to make dumb decisions and then have those with deep pockets compensate us. What about pro-rating body parts. I hurt my pinkie on a skinny. Do you think that's enough to get a full suspension mtn bike out of the district?:eek:

[Dude]

I have a real problem with Barak’s line of thinking too. Actually, a big problem.

The idea that the snowboarder in question, or any other similar hypothetical situation, has a legitimate moral claim that it is the fault of the “system” is ludicrous. The kid is 17 years old. Unless it can be shown that perhaps the kid already had mental problems of some sort (perhaps a condition that prevents him from clearly analyzing a situation), my opinion is that he is solely responsible for his own actions.

Asking for a judgment by jury was suicide. Of course they will bite on the sympathy hook. I feel a judge would have been far more analytical in this case.

Second, your ideal “utopian” society theory is also flawed. You suggest that perhaps “rich” people should be giving up more money because they can. I don’t know where you draw the line at “rich”…there aren’t many Billionaires walking around Vancouver. The two I know of between here and Seattle (Bill Gates & Jim Pattison) definitely give their share back to society. What gives you the right to dictate where men whom have earned their millions should be distributing it? They built their fortunes, they directly pay SUBSTANTIAL taxes through their empires, and often donate substantially back to the community. Why should you have claim to whatever they have left over?

You imply that “rich” people are rich because they don’t deserve to be. Bullocks. For the most part, people with high incomes have such incomes because they have put themselves in position to earn it through hard work. Doctors, for example (and as pointed out) may spend upwards of 10 years or more in school, then countless grueling hours interning. They deserve to be amongst the highest paid in our society. After their taxes are paid, I don’t believe they should be bound to give up one more dime of their income to anyone they don’t want to give it to.

[Sharon]

Welfare is a right!!!

I still don't understand why blackcomb settled if they felt they were not at fault.

Rat, the DNV HAS to recognize the trails now. Thank the residents, actually thank the mountain bikers that pissed off the residents so they squeaked to the district.

[Dude]

I suspect they'd settle out of court for a number of reasons, primarily to avoid the court battle, and the potential for setting a dangerous precedence. Settling also keeps things nice and quiet, and sweeps the problem under the carpet.

I agree that social welfare is a right, but that doesn't mean we now have the right to point the finger the other way when we should be pointing it at ourselves. At 17 years old, you're grown up enough to be able to accept responsibility for your own actions.

[Sharon]

Originally posted by Dude

I agree that social welfare is a right, but that doesn't mean we now have the right to point the finger the other way when we should be pointing it at ourselves.

I was being sarcastic, reference to the liberty square squatters. I know enough people who abuse welfare to feel some restrictions should apply.

[Oldfart]

I still don't understand why blackcomb settled if they felt they were not at fault.

From an Insurers standpoint, they might have gotten a cheap deal to buy certainty. We don't know the details of the settlement nor of the case itself. Robert Kennedy's services do not come cheap. I would not be the least bit sirprised if the legal fees were $200,000. Trial costs, if there were many witnesses and experts to give evidence could be up around $50,000.

I believe the more socialist systems do not work for a couple reasons, one we humans can be very competitive and need to make all that money and all that stuff just as proof that we are better. (That's why governments should promote sports as its a better outlet for that competition) Two, other people will take advantage of the social system. I don't know the numbers, but you hear sometimes that the people who draw wages from the taxes we all pay are approaching 50%. Well with say 7% unemployment, that would mean 43% of us are paying for 57% of us.

My wife is a partner at a big law firm and works like a dog. Not too many people are willing to work 50 and 60 hour weeks all their life to make what she does. Contrary to what some folks believe, there are no tax loopholes where the rich can avoid paying taxes. Between her and I, we pay more in taxes than probably many of you guys and gals will make in 5 or even 10 years, yet we get the same s l o w medical service. I get a little chocked when those collecting from ME start complaining that they don't have enough. Why do people not realize that all those nice government services have to be paid for from somewhere.

Say, you have a very nice bike, got any parts your not using that you can give me?

[dirty deeds]

Originally posted by Oldfart
I get a little chocked when those collecting from ME start complaining that they don't have enough.

:lol: :lol: :lol: Classic freudian slip on the spelling error that probably only the Aussies out there will get.. 'to get chocked' - (Australian slang) meaning forced to bend over with ones pants down and receive a large stiff object into a somewhat smaller exposed orifice... often associated with severe pain.

[Dude]

Kind of like paying taxes.

Appropriate freudian "slip".

Oops...there's another!;)

[Desloc]

Mandatory biking insurance would solve these issues.


Des

[bighairyrider]

I used to be socialist until I started making more money.

[dirty deeds]

Originally posted by Desloc
Mandatory biking insurance would solve these issues.


Des


premium = $$$,$$$,$$$.00 even if you could find a carrier, which I doubt.

Further along the issues though:

Has a climber ever sued District of Squamish following a fall?

Free climbing and roped climbing would be different implications, I imagine... but not dissimilar to riders doing a natural rock drop vs. a man made drop.

I would think if a man made stunt is well constructed, has a bypass and a warning sign then the Dist of NV should be off the hook as far as liability.

Society's responsibility to the less fortunate is a whole different issue.

[gooch]

Originally posted by dirty deeds
premium = $$$,$$$,$$$.00 even if you could find a carrier, which I doubt.

Further along the issues though:

Has a climber ever sued District of Squamish following a fall?

Free climbing and roped climbing would be different implications, I imagine... but not dissimilar to riders doing a natural rock drop vs. a man made drop.

I would think if a man made stunt is well constructed, has a bypass and a warning sign then the Dist of NV should be off the hook as far as liability.

Society's responsibility to the less fortunate is a whole different issue.
You need to look up liability and tresspassing laws to truly understand how much of a mess this situation is

[dirty deeds]

Originally posted by gooch
You need to look up liability and tresspassing laws to truly understand how much of a mess this situation is

I'm sure that in about 6 months time the District of NV will save me the trouble of looking it up. :(

[Dude]

I tried getting personal disability insurance. After a long investigation into my sports background and current activities, the insurance carrier came back with a policy that DID NOT include back or neck injuries. On top of that, they wanted to, erm, "Freudian slip" me for it. Big bucks for a disability insurance policy that doesn't include back or neck disabilities? No thanks.

I do believe that as part of a racing license, you are provided with a limited insurance policy that cover the medical costs of injuries suffered either while racing or training. We have similar coverage through BCSA for soccer. The policies typically cover the direct medical costs associated with the injuries, but not lost wages or "opportunity". I have filed a couple of these claims in the past after breaking my leg (twice) playing the beautiful game. In the end, it was good because it covered my ambulance ride, my wheelchair rental, and my physiotherapy.

Perhaps this is what guys need to do- get a license, just to get some basic coverage.

If anyone knows more about this, please do post. How about you Wrinkled Old Bastard...any info? :cool:

[gooch]

Originally posted by dirty deeds
I'm sure that in about 6 months time the District of NV will save me the trouble of looking it up. :(
It the problem with the legal system and the people like this kid that sue, when they are teh ultimate cause of their problem. Negilence is one thing, but these guysa re taking resposiblity to a whole other level and it will kill the sport if they don't put a a stop to it

[sanrensho]

Originally posted by Dude
I tried getting personal disability insurance. After a long investigation into my sports background and current activities, the insurance carrier came back with a policy that DID NOT include back or neck injuries.

Did they base this on past history of injuries, participation in competitive events and/or an investigation of the type of riding you do (trails/technical difficulty)?

In other words, would they have excluded back/neck injuries if you had simply told them that you were a "recreational mountain biker"?

I'm curious what specific factors led them to come up with the exclusions in your policy.

[dirty deeds]

Originally posted by gooch
It the problem with the legal system and the people like this kid that sue, when they are teh ultimate cause of their problem. Negilence is one thing, but these guysa re taking resposiblity to a whole other level and it will kill the sport if they don't put a a stop to it

The legal system is based primarily on precedance. MTB is a young sport and so there is not much precedance.

Rockclimbing is a similarly dangerous sport, practiced on public land. The District of Squamish and other jurisdictions allow it. They must have done their due diligance or have some precedance in order to give them a comfort level that no-one will take them to the cleaners if a set rope breaks or pulls out.

I don't know the answer - hence my question, does anyone know?

I also think there is a large difference in owner/operator/ land manager liability between undertaking a perceived dangerous activity on accessible public land (Fromme) compared to commercially built terrain park (Blackcombe). If a boarder hucks off a cliff on Fromme they aren't going to win a liability suit against DNV, whereas if a boarder pays to do a stunt built by a park operator... different kettle of fish... IMO

The big problem is NSMBA doesn't have the financial resources to get solid legal opinion. We have to rely on the legal opinion given to (and paid for by) DNV. In my experience there is no such thing as independant professional opinion. The person who pays, gets the opinion they want, be it engineering, environmental, legal.. whatever.

In other words, we're at their mercy.

Prepare to be chocked :eek:

[Dude]

The problem is that you cannot lie on your application, or you run the risk of them voiding it should you try processing a claim and the information submitted wasn't accurate.

At the time I was racing, and the form asked if the insured competes in any sports. I play competitive soccer, and I listed "mountain bike racing". They then came back to ask "what events". You have to be truthful.

Also, they dig into your medical past. They ask anything and everything about your history, including such questions as, "Have you ever been treated for a back injury". Well, like many, I have. I received treatment for a bulging disk in 1992-93, which I have since recovered from. They also ask about other injuries. Anything I've ever been hospitalized for, or have received treatment for, I had to list.

Long freaking list, let me tell you.

Essentially, I was refused coverage (useful coverage, that is).

[sanrensho]

Originally posted by Dude
I listed "mountain bike racing". They then came back to ask "what events". You have to be truthful.

Anything I've ever been hospitalized for, or have received treatment for, I had to list.

Thanks for the clarification. Luckily, my injury history is minimal and I don't race, which leads me to believe that I won't have a problem obtaining disability insurance if needed.

Also, from the insurer's point of view, I'm led to believe that "recreational mountain biking" isn't an issue and that there isn't any distinction in terms of the type of recreational riding you do.

[Dude]

Good luck, and lube up.;)

[Stinkyfinger]

I got some comments on this argument regarding this utopian society. It seems to me that a monetary system is the real problem. Basically we are all playing a very large game of monopoly (this is a capitalist view), the outcome of the game is always the same no matter how long you play it, there is a winner and large amount of losers. Now right away this seems to be a flawed system at best, to me at least. I think it was put best by an american politician in the early 30's right around the implementation of the Federal Reserve, the guys name escapes me, he said, "if I have a bar-b-q and one person takes 90% fo the food, how do I feed the other people"? Basically all that can come from capitalism is greater class separation in the masses. The next thing we can look at is history, what happens when you have an small elite ruling class living such increadible lives in front of a much larger, unhappy, poor, miserable lower class? Again I say none of this is new, any form of monetary system will be flawed and over time will collapse, this is it's nature, once man can learn this once an for all we then can move ahead, till this happens we are doomed.
As for a kid sueing for his own mistake, he is just taking advantage of a flawed system, is it right? What is?

Just my two cents... I think we are doomed, services, products; all this crap is off the scale in terms of worth, why? The stockholders know the answer, it's all about the Benjamin's.; Everything suffers for them, the environment, morality, society.

Damn!
SF

BTW good work putty, gooch. I takes allot to make me want to get involved, some good arguments!

[dirty deeds]

Even if you get insurance, and (I hate to even say it :???:) you break a neck off a stunt, and you claim insurance... your insurance company is going to go after whoever they can to defray their costs. It is not going to lessen any responsibility DNV may have... and DNV knows this. Saying to DNV 'we all have insurance' will only make DNV more afraid, because they know an insurance company is much more likely to come after them than an individual (who may have a conscience and realize it was their choice).

[dirty deeds]

sorry - smiley face was an accident - meant to be a frown

[Oldfart]

Dude: You dealt with my office for those soccer claims. Hope they treated you well.

Since some of us here race or compete in other sports that have similar policies I thought I would provide a very brief comment on those policies. They are excess policies. That means they provide coverage to the insured after all other available policies are used up. That is, you get BC med to cover what they cover, then get your work coverage (or parents or spouses) if you have it to cover costs, then go to the Cycling BC policy. And the coverage is bare bones minimal. No wages covered and small amounts for permanent losses. Don't be counting on it to provide complete assistance, it helps but its not huge. The premium we all pay is quite small too. Depending on the sport and numbers of participants anywhere from 75 cents to 2 dollars per member per year.

My client provides insurance to a lot of sports organizations in Canada but not all. Generally we don't do contact sports and other more hazardous sports.

[sanrensho]

Originally posted by dirty deeds
Even if you get insurance, and (I hate to even say it) you break a neck off a stunt, and you claim insurance... your insurance company is going to go after whoever they can to defray their costs.

Excellent point.

[Dude]

Originally posted by Stinkyfinger
I got some comments on this argument regarding this utopian society. It seems to me that a monetary system is the real problem. Basically we are all playing a very large game of monopoly (this is a capitalist view), the outcome of the game is always the same no matter how long you play it, there is a winner and large amount of losers. Now right away this seems to be a flawed system at best, to me at least. I think it was put best by an american politician in the early 30's right around the implementation of the Federal Reserve, the guys name escapes me, he said, "if I have a bar-b-q and one person takes 90% fo the food, how do I feed the other people"? Basically all that can come from capitalism is greater class separation in the masses. The next thing we can look at is history, what happens when you have an small elite ruling class living such increadible lives in front of a much larger, unhappy, poor, miserable lower class? Again I say none of this is new, any form of monetary system will be flawed and over time will collapse, this is it's nature, once man can learn this once an for all we then can move ahead, till this happens we are doomed.
As for a kid sueing for his own mistake, he is just taking advantage of a flawed system, is it right? What is?

Just my two cents... I think we are doomed, services, products; all this crap is off the scale in terms of worth, why? The stockholders know the answer, it's all about the Benjamin's.; Everything suffers for them, the environment, morality, society.

Damn!
SF

BTW good work putty, gooch. I takes allot to make me want to get involved, some good arguments!

All sounds great coming out of a sociology text, however, it certainly is not a fair representation of our society here in Canada. Somalia, yes. Canada, no. Let’s keep things in perspective.

I argue that we have pretty good balance here. Not ideal, but I’ll take our system here over our gun toting neighbours to the south. The 90% / 10% scenario simply does not apply. In fact, Canada Customs & Revenue agency has made sure that the more we earn, the more we contribute to those who need support by the system. The middle class makes the vast majority of the social contribution, not the "rich".

There is not one truly socialist system of Government that has shown to be successful. Thus, the fall of Communism. Your description of Capitalism reads more like a description of Dictatorship, or Imperialism.

[LeeLau]

Re: Insurance

I've got some life insurance from Rogers Group - pm Cucumber Jones on this board. I didn't bother with disability for personal reasons. I got whole life.

I disclosed the fact that I participated in hazardous activities like backcountry skiing; heli-biking; etc. They were fine with that and said that I may not be insured while indulging in dangerous activities. So I am going to have to purchase separate insurance for that.

[Dude]

I've got tons of life, but it doesn't help me if I live through my crash w/ a broken back or neck. Life insurance is pretty easy to get if you're relatively young and healthy.

[LeeLau]

Originally posted by Dude
I've got tons of life, but it doesn't help me if I live through my crash w/ a broken back or neck. Life insurance is pretty easy to get if you're relatively young and healthy.

In my line of work I would have to be in a coma for disability to kick in. Most disability only pays out if you can't work at your current profession. I can be a sip and puff and still work.