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Cheese
07-22-2003, 04:39 AM
I fell in love with the Canon ESO D10 at first sight, Its the most amazing camera and I want to get it so badly, so much so that I'm willing to sell my brand spankin new .243. I have another bike so I wont be missing out on much other than the street scene . . . and amazing dirt jumping but I can always just just take my bullit on street rides and take pics. But, right now I cant take night pictures on friday night DT rides because when my flash goes off in the dark, it lights up all these weird specs of shit in the air and I get a really crappy shot. I've tried numerous times to fix the problem but nothing I've tried works. I'll be getting a remote flash with the camera for 200 bucks which will make them a hole lot better (no specs because the dust line will be off camera) Besides, off camera flashes always look so much more professional.

I'm sure a lot of you will say that its JUST a camera, but to me, its not just a camera, its a career. I'm planning to go to a film school in Vancouver, then if things work out moving down to california to take some extreamly expensive corses and work for a high end magazine company like national geographic (I have lots of time to figure the little details, nothings set in stone yet) As you can see, I really enjoy photography and I'd like to pursue it as a career.

My question to you now comes, do you think its worth it to sell my bike to get the camera? I've saved up for a long time and spent countless houres building it up (I built my own wheels) And I came out with the PERFECT hardtail. I havn't even had ONE ride on it, other than from my place to the bike shop (2 blocks) and its never met dirt. I dont really wana sell it, if I do sell it, I'd ask 2200 because in my heart I really really want to keep it, but if someones willing to pay 2200 or 2100 I'd let them take it.

Thoughts?

The camera is a digital SLR. I found it for 1149 US plus 300 for lense and 200 for remote flash. If I sell the .243 my parents will pay for anything thats over 2100.


Heres some links to the camera

http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/canoneos10d/
http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/specs/Canon/canon_eos10d.asp

Heres a link to the bike

http://www.members.shaw.ca/djrb180/243six.jpg




sooke hooligan
07-22-2003, 04:44 AM
check out some used camera shops, mabye you'll find one cheap..also check out www.buysell.ca theyr alot on ther in the vancouver area...:)

clean_cut
07-22-2003, 04:44 AM
If you really love it, then there should be no question :)

<GaRy>
07-22-2003, 04:45 AM
dude i would cut my nuts off for that cam

Garris
07-22-2003, 04:47 AM
Ok ok ok danny...before you go sellign your bike..

Whats your income like...is there any possiblilty of you getting it without selling.

If this is gonna be a career you got time..your what..15-16...you could save up for it for next summer..your taking killer photos with what you have right now..why not wait for a bit..develop a bit more..then pick up a better camera...your photos would go up exponentially...

I can't tell you what to do..all I can say is don't just jump on selling your bike..I do stuff like that all the time and more often than not end up regretting my decision.

<GaRy>
07-22-2003, 04:50 AM
wait, i was thinking of a canon video cam, but still do it man

TREV
07-22-2003, 04:50 AM
keep your bike... get a job

superman_4
07-22-2003, 04:51 AM
lets see some pics of your bike

Cheese
07-22-2003, 04:53 AM
Originally posted by Garris
Ok ok ok danny...before you go sellign your bike..

Whats your income like...is there any possiblilty of you getting it without selling.

If this is gonna be a career you got time..your what..15-16...you could save up for it for next summer..your taking killer photos with what you have right now..why not wait for a bit..develop a bit more..then pick up a better camera...your photos would go up exponentially...

I can't tell you what to do..all I can say is don't just jump on selling your bike..I do stuff like that all the time and more often than not end up regretting my decision.


My income is bad. I dont work, I build the odd wheel at the bike shop for 10 bucks and do lots of volenteering...I get a minimum of 80 bucks a month.

Thank you for the inteligent input, its got me thinking. However, Its not like I dont have a bike right? I mean, I dont NEED the hardtail, I'm only missing out on street which would be a lot more important to me if I were to have a street ride on the bike, but thats what I'm afraid of doing, getting hooked on the bike...I dont want that becuase when the time comes to sell it, I just wont be able to do it and I will never be able to get the camera until I start working...which I dont want to do :lol: I dont have a car or anything else that I have to constantly put money towards other than camera gear and my bikes. Sterling lorance sold one of his bikes to get into photography you know...

dudski
07-22-2003, 05:06 AM
god, if i had the money i'd buy the bike to help you out thats the exact setup basically i want to build ( except maybe a front brake thrown into the mix)


if you really want that buttery camera u'd sell me the frame and fork;)

Big_Fish
07-22-2003, 05:14 AM
take a second and think about what you're going to be usign the cam for. the D10 (http://www.canoneos.com/) is a sweet cam and will put you right up there with in the big leagues. however if you are only 15 - 16 then you won't have enought time to use the cam and justify buying it. Then by the time your out of school the D10 will be a collectors item and won't sell for $100 on ebay. besides, there are people who shoot mtb full time and are pro. So until you're out of school and have enough time to follow the world cup curcuit, the cam will only see sun light two days a week.

you should try and find a job in which you would use a sweet dig slr, then I could justify you buying it.

Also think about what you are going to do with your shots. You can also send them to bike mags, but they won't pay you a cent. If you just want to post them on the web, remeber that even LCD screens can only display 67 million colours. the D10 (http://www.canoneos.com/) has shots with three times the colours.

another important thing to remeber is that the quality of the D10 (http://www.canoneos.com/) still isn't good enought to do a full page spread in a mag. you have to spend close to $20 000 CND for the EOS 1Ds (http://www.canoneos.com/) to have enough quality and size ( 11.1 MP ).

but hey, it's your call and it's your money. So make the decission which you think is the most logical

David
07-22-2003, 05:15 AM
can i ahve your bike for 1100...........pleeeeeeeeeeeaaaaaaaaaassssssssssss eeeeeeee!!!
hahah

scottvelez
07-22-2003, 06:06 AM
Originally posted by Big_Fish
take a second and think about what you're going to be usign the cam for. the D10 (http://www.canoneos.com/) is a sweet cam and will put you right up there with in the big leagues.
however if you are only 15 - 16 then you won't have enought time to use the cam and justify buying it. Then by the time your out of school the D10 will be a collectors item and won't sell for $100 on ebay.

I agree completely. Canon discontinues cameras at an alarming rate. The D60 was "hot" for what, six months? Now you can't buy one from a dealer if you wanted to... or sell it either. Nobody wants old technology. Have you seen the marketplace for Pentium-III chips? It's a wasteland out there.

Originally posted by Big_Fish
besides, there are people who shoot mtb full time and are pro.

If you really want to be a 'pro', take a look at what equipment the pros are using. How many of them are using the D10?
(hint: None).

If you just want to post them on the web, remeber that even LCD screens can only display 67 million colours. the D10 (http://www.canoneos.com/) has shots with three times the colours.

Actually, most (99.9% of all) LCD monitors can barely display 7-bits of color information and if anything, have a very weak sRGB colorspace. Graphics artists, photographers and color correction professionals always use CRTs. This may change in the future, but it will likely take another few years before LCDs even approach the subtle color renditions and constrast of a cheap $500 CRT. Most digital cameras (even cheap point and shoot types) can provide more color than can be displayed on a LCD. And the D10 resolution is complete and utter overkill for web use.

but hey, it's your call and it's your money.
Agreed. Everyone can talk advice, but at the end of the day, it's his money and he can spend it how he wants.

scott

Chump
07-22-2003, 06:09 AM
Scott I am so glad we have you here along with many other photographers. Your advice is always appreciated

Steve

scottvelez
07-22-2003, 06:20 AM
Originally posted by Cheese
I'm sure a lot of you will say that its JUST a camera, but to me, its not just a camera, its a career.

What type of photography are you planning to do? Sports? Action? If so, you will want a 'flash sync' speed as fast as possible (you often need fill-flash to reduce contrast). The 10D syncs at 1/200th of a second, so keep in mind that for flash shots, you won't be able to use shutter speeds faster than 1/200th of a second.


Thoughts?

The camera is a digital SLR. I found it for 1149 US plus 300 for lense and 200 for remote flash.

Yes, I have two thoughts ;-)

When it comes to good quality pictures, it's the *lens* and the *film* that determines quality. NOT the camera body. The body, just meters, and fires the shutter. That's it. It lets a little bit of light in.
If it were me, I'd spend $1149US on the lens and the $300US on the camera body. Your shots will look a lot better and you will have a lens and body you can use for years.

It sounds like you have a lot of money to spend. That's good... but I would urge you to spend it on photography classes and training instead of 'gear'. I don't know if you have checked into the photography classes or not, but in most cases, they will make you shoot in manual mode and either develop your shots in the darkroom, or display your slides in the class slide shows. How do you plan to participate with a digital camera?

scott

t-town dirt jumper
07-22-2003, 06:31 AM
"However, Its not like I dont have a bike right? I mean, I dont NEED the hardtail, I'm only missing out on street"

DUDE!!! back up a second have u ever experianced the thrill it is to jump on a hard tail before it is better than any other type of dully... u would be missing out on alot of fun times... i would think long and hard about what u are thinking about doing before it becomes reality. :nono:

t-town dirt jumper
07-22-2003, 06:38 AM
Originally posted by TREV
keep your bike... get a job
I'm with trevor keep the bike it's dope and if u put so much effort into getting it built and haven't even rode it! keep the bike and have some fun on it

t-town dirt jumper
07-22-2003, 06:45 AM
buy the way the first post is Ryan and the second post is nick:rolleyes:

fergs
07-22-2003, 06:50 AM
Alright I can add my 2 cents!

Big_Fish - you don't need 11+ mega pixels to do full page spreads in magazines. I'll prove it to you shortly.

scottv - I couldn't agree more with most of the advice you've offered. One thing however - at the WC up on Grouse I saw at least 2 pros using 10d's and a few using 1D's and 1Ds'. I know you're a film shooter at heart but like I've said before, digi is the way of the future and to deny it is futile. The classrooms are going to change to accomodate students with digi cams. It's sad, but it's true. Film will remain but will be analogous to the vinyl collectors in our world of cd's and mp3's.

Danny - listen to scott. Lenses, Lenses, Lenses. That's what it's all about. The two lenses I use most are each worth more than $2500. The body of the camera is mostly irrelevant, even more so with digi's because of Moore's law. Every 18 months, the number of transistors on a chip doubles. This is why computers are outdated so quickly and the same effect holds true for digi cams.

Now, on the other hand, buying a digi slr is a nice quick way to get a grip on slr photography. If your current digi cam can shoot on manual mode, then switch it to that and re-learn how to use your camera (if you haven't done so already). Then go and buy a film slr and some NICE lenses.

Also, if you're going to sell your bike then sell your FS rather than your hard tail. There's nothing on the shore that requires a FS bike and HT's are sooooooo fun. If you go to whistler a lot then well I guess that's a different situation.

When you order the camera online from that US place take note that they may not accept credit cards with a permanent address that is outside of the US. They're also going to try to sell you the 3 year extended warranty - and they're going to try really really hard. It's going to be around 300- 400 bucks. If the package gets stopped at the border, then you'll have to pay GST and PST on the CDN dollar amount. No duty though, that's the nice thing about camera equipment.

scottvelez
07-22-2003, 07:00 AM
In all likelyhood, the package will get stopped at the border. Especially if you deal with a reputable camera dealer who puts the correct 'estimated value' on the shipping package... for Insurance and Customs purposes.

Also, stay away from grey-market equipment. You can save a few bucks, but Canon and Nikon will not fix or repair grey market gear... rendering your warrantee useless.

By the way, did you know Nikon and Canon service centers in Canada will not fix your "USA" purchased equipment? If you purchase "USA" models, you must ship them down and have it serviced at the "USA" service centers. It's one of the ways the manufactures "help" you decide to purchase locally ;-)

If you are going to spend some serious money on some serious gear, buy the good stuff and buy it from a reputable local dealer. It will save you money in the long run.

scott

Brad Dawg
07-22-2003, 07:17 AM
Film seems to be the way to go..... i havent seen much digi stuff that impresses me.... i agree with bits of what fergs and scott say.... lenses are the real deal, focus on that... that will be the big coin zone... thats why since you are on a tight budget... you could spend 300-700 on a film body, and spend another 1000+ on lenses and what not. Unfortunatly, to get a decent digi, your gonna have to spend 1000+ US and not have much left over for lenses. I'd wait, take some classes, learn about what gear you really need to take it serious, and go from there.

Cheese
07-22-2003, 07:22 AM
Originally posted by fergs
When you order the camera online from that US place take note that they may not accept credit cards with a permanent address that is outside of the US. They're also going to try to sell you the 3 year extended warranty - and they're going to try really really hard. It's going to be around 300- 400 bucks. If the package gets stopped at the border, then you'll have to pay GST and PST on the CDN dollar amount. No duty though, that's the nice thing about camera equipment.


Thank all of you guys for the great advice.


David, my moms husband works in the USA in bellingham and I have all the products I order online from the USA shiped to that house, we then just bring it across the border. (MUCH cheaper. I did that with the camera I have now, I got it for 450 US plus 30 for the 128 MB memory card and it cost me 700 CDN. Future shop sells it for 799 CDN w/o a 128 mem card)

Are there any other digital SLR bodys that you would recomend that are cheaper than the one I'm looking at?

What do you use?


Digital is the way of the future, however I dont see why its sad?

KOW49
07-22-2003, 07:23 AM
Originally posted by TREV
keep your bike... get a job

its a waste of ur money selling ur bike ur not gonna get the same amount u put into it

just keep th bike get a job like said above also ^

just wait soon that camera will come down miles in price and ull still have ur bike

Cheese
07-22-2003, 07:26 AM
Originally posted by scottv
Also, stay away from grey-market equipment. You can save a few bucks, but Canon and Nikon will not fix or repair grey market gear... rendering your warrantee useless.


When you say grey market gear, do you mean second hand?

The camera body I said was 1149 was from someone selling through amazon.com. It is unopened and still has the origional package seal around the camera. (NOTE* False advertising on amazon.com will get you jail time, they take it quite seriously)

Also, what kind of camera body and lense would you reccomend for someone in my situation? Keep in mind I want digital, SLR is way to expensive in the end. Digital is the way :)

Once again thanks for all your advice.

Chump
07-22-2003, 07:28 AM
Fergs, when can we see this mag shot, can you let us in on it? :D

Steve

Brad Dawg
07-22-2003, 07:29 AM
im guessing the next issue of launch, and look for a few appearances by a few of the bicycle rockers!

scottvelez
07-22-2003, 07:38 AM
Originally posted by Cheese
my moms husband works in the USA in bellingham and I have all the products I order online from the USA shiped to that house, we then just bring it across the border.


heh.. heh... so your Mom is teaching you to break the law and cheat the governement?

By law, you must declare these items to the customs officials at the border and pay the appropriate PST and GST.

scott

Cheese
07-22-2003, 07:45 AM
Scott - I checked out the 2 possible Nikon digital SLR camears, the one that came out 2 years ago is 3700 US and the DX1 is 1700 US. The Canon seems to be cheaper.

scottvelez
07-22-2003, 07:48 AM
Originally posted by Cheese
When you say grey market gear, do you mean second hand?


copied and pasted from some website


What is "Grey Market" camera equipment and why should I avoid it?
"Grey Market" equipment refers to cameras and accessories that have been imported from other parts of the world and are not factory authorized to be sold in the United States. These cameras do not carry US warranties and many manufacturers have taken the position that they will not even repair Grey Market equipment. Camera stores that offer Grey Market goods usually offer their "camera store warranty". This is not an equivalent warranty. If there is a problem with the equipment, you are at their mercy as to who they have repair the equipment or if they are even still in business. Always ask if the equipment you are purchasing includes a factory US warranty or if it is Grey Market.


The quote mentions talks about the "united states" but the Canadian importers apply the same rules in Canada.

For "simple" film cameras, you can usually find another repair shop to fix the problem... but digital cameras are much more complex and they use proprietary parts... only available from the camera manufacturer. They won't sell the parts to the unofficial repair shops and they won't fix your 'grey' market camera themselves.... which means, if you have a problem with the camera, you can't get it fixed!
That's one fricken expensive paper weight.

scott

scottvelez
07-22-2003, 07:57 AM
Originally posted by Cheese
Scott - I checked out the 2 possible Nikon digital SLR camears, the one that came out 2 years ago is 3700 US and the DX1 is 1700 US. The Canon seems to be cheaper.

I don't remember saying the price is the same... ;-)
The canon is cheaper... because it's made cheaper. That's not a bad thing. They two cameras you listed are designed for different tasks and different users.

What you should be comparing is the Nikon D100 against the Canon 10D. Both are "pro-sumer", entry level digital SLRs.

Kerrisdale cameras lists the Nikon D100 for $2700 and the Canon 10D for $2400.

scott

Cheese
07-22-2003, 08:02 AM
Originally posted by scottv
I don't remember saying the price is the same... ;-)

:lol:


The canon is cheaper... because it's made cheaper. That's not a bad thing. They two cameras you listed are designed for different tasks and different users.

What are the differen't tasks? What differen't users? What would be best for me? (biking)


Kerrisdale cameras lists the Nikon D100 for $2700 and the Canon 10D for $2400.

Yeah, I was there today checking out the 10D, I think I should go back again soon and check out the Nikon D100 just to see what I feel I like more. I'm pretty sure I cant afford an extra 300 bucks though.

I think the final choice is going to be sell the bike and get the Canon 10D with some really nice second hand lenses. Do you have any experiance with second hand lenses?

scottvelez
07-22-2003, 08:14 AM
Originally posted by Cheese
What are the differen't tasks? What differen't users? What would be best for me? (biking)


The Nikon D1 series are no-compromising designs for professional photographers. All metal construction, metal lens mount, water and dust seals on all openings, fast flash sync speeds (the D1x syncs at 1/500th of a second), firewire connections, GPS (location) support, large memory buffers, etc. Serious stuff for serious shooters.

The Canon 10D and the Nikon D100 are for rich hobby shooters ;-)
They use a lot more plastic in the body construction and basically, cheaper parts throughout. The pro cameras can shoot 150,000 shots without failure. The pro-summer cameras *might* be able to do 40,000.

Different cameras for different users... with a corresponding difference in price.

If you are a 'sports' shooter, you need fast auto-focus, fast shots per second rate, fast flash sync speeds and large memory buffers. In the Nikon lineup, this would be the 'D2H' body. In Canon's lineup, you would want the '1D'.

scott

Cheese
07-22-2003, 08:33 AM
Wow, it seems like all these digital SLR's are extreamly expensive and the one I had found was the cheapest one :| I think that the 10D is the best deal for what I'm looking for.


Can you offor any ideas / advice for lenses? I have no idea about lenses.

My buddy is lending me his film SLR to try out for a week or to, hopefully I'll get used to the differne't lenses and what not before I buy one. :)

freerideforever
07-22-2003, 08:36 AM
Depends on how much you are going to sell the .243 to me for? But i love seeing your pics, you are an awsome photo man. I'd say you only need one bike, and the dope pics will be fucking awsome. And free cash from your parents? Jump the hell all over that. But im serious about buying it. Let me know.

-Nate

/v\ark
07-22-2003, 08:37 AM
at your age and income i would buy a used f3 and some nice lens. Seriously, think about that option.

Cheese
07-22-2003, 08:45 AM
Originally posted by freerideforever
Depends on how much you are going to sell the .243 to me for? But i love seeing your pics, you are an awsome photo man. I'd say you only need one bike, and the dope pics will be fucking awsome. And free cash from your parents? Jump the hell all over that. But im serious about buying it. Let me know.

-Nate


Well, I'm coming to nelson augest 18th.


In my heart I dont want to let it go, so what im going to do is sell it at a high price and just wait for as long as it takes for some one to buy it...I know someone will cuz its a sick bike. $2000.

fergs
07-22-2003, 10:27 AM
Originally posted by scottv
The Nikon D1 series ... fast flash sync speeds (the D1x syncs at 1/500th of a second),

:eek: holy crap!


The Canon 10D and the Nikon D100 are for rich hobby shooters ;-)
They use a lot more plastic in the body construction and basically, cheaper parts throughout.

Actually the 10d uses an all-magnesium body (well, most of it) - no more plastic! One thing Canon has going for it is all of the internal parts are made by Canon, they don't have to rely on 3rd party manufacturers for the sensor or other electronics. The benefits of doing it this way are numerous.

Danny - if you want a nice selection of used lenses, then go with the Nikon body.

Right now I've been shooting with my D60. I like it but it has a few flaws. I almost jumped on the 10d but decided to hold off. I think I might wait and see what happens in Canon's world of full-frame SLRs. The only one they have right now is the 1Ds and it's mega expensive.

Zaskar
07-22-2003, 11:23 AM
man, i feel like an idiot. i know nothing of what you speak of.

my SLR is from circa 1980 and i have a wide range of lenses and it does me fine. i dont understand why anyone would spend so much money on a HOBBY camera. i think picture quality matters when you get to the point where magazines will only publish your stuff IF you get it. i dont see the point in an expensive camera to learn on.

also, why digital? remember it doesnt stop there. if you want ppl to recognize the quality you're going to need a hgih end monitor, high end printer, high end programs that can deal with that ammount of colour without losing quality, etc.

I'd say buy last years hot camera for half the price and giv'er.

But I know nothing but how to take pictures, photography 12 w00t.
Cam.

eddiebrannan
07-22-2003, 05:01 PM
holy shit i think i saw a post that suggested that you're only 15? if so you have no business with nor need for a camera like that. what you need to do is work on your basic photography skills. aperture, exposure, different results with different FILM (yes film), darkroom skills and so forth.

at your age i had a pentax k1000 ($100 basic manual slr) and it taught me how to make a photograph. no-one ever wants to hear it but you need to learn to walk before you can run, and buying a super-expensive digital camera at this stage, when your eye is still developing, is going to be actually detrimental to what you want to achieve, because it will provide you with too many shortcuts to a superficially "correct" picture.

do NOT sell your bike for this camera. you're lucky enough to have the bicycle (god knows how you young-uns can afford stuff like this). sell the crappy digitial camera and use that money for a home darkroom kit. once you're developing and printing your own stuff it becomes cheaper.

if you plan to do this for a living then you need to master it. that come s form you, not some digital camera that you'll be able to buy for half the dough on eBay in a year. be patient young jedi

scottvelez
07-22-2003, 06:08 PM
Originally posted by fergs
I almost jumped on the 10d but decided to hold off.


The 10D is sweet. Very good value in it's price range. I didn't realize they are using a metal body now. Sweet.


I think I might wait and see what happens in Canon's world of full-frame SLRs. The only one they have right now is the 1Ds and it's mega expensive.

Personally, I don't see why people are so fixated on "full-frame" sensors. We have 8x10 cameras, 4x5 cameras, 6x6 cameras, and 35mm cameras too. None of which use the same 'format'. In the last few years, you can add 'digital' to the mix. Why do you want to shoe-horn a digital sensor into the into a 35mm film format size? They are completly different technologies! So what's the deal?

More sensors? You can get more sensors into a smaller chip space for less money (other manufactures are doing this)

Wide angle shots? Canon and Kodak both have full-frame sensors and they allow you to use your current wide-angle lenses... but the quality at extreme wide angles sucks due to chromatic aberrations. With the current 35mm lens mounts, you just can't get the light to hit the sensor properly with the current lenses.
So, Canon and Nikon are retooling their lens lineup to get around these issues by designing special 'digital' wide-angle lenses which redirect the light better. Nikon has already released theirs and Canon will release theirs soon. These special lenses solve the "I need wide angle" issues.

Are there other reasons you want full-frame?

scott

fergs
07-22-2003, 06:25 PM
Originally posted by scottv
So, Canon and Nikon are retooling their lens lineup to get around these issues by designing special 'digital' wide-angle lenses which redirect the light better. Nikon has already released theirs and Canon will release theirs soon. These special lenses solve the "I need wide angle" issues.

Are there other reasons you want full-frame?

scott


Hmm I was under the impression that this lens was specifically designed for digi slr's (obviously it can also be used for film slr's as well).

http://www.canon.ca/english/index-products.asp?lng=en&prodid=71&sgid=7&gid=2&ovr=1

It's my favourite lens at the moment, it's unbelievably sharp. But it saddens me that I can't get down to 16mm with it, but rather only 26mm. That's a pretty big difference. So yes the reason I want a full 35mm sensor is to make full use of this lens.

urban-rider
07-22-2003, 06:39 PM
I know shit all about cameras, but what i do know is thats one FUCKIN nice bike, and you would be the biggest Chump in the world to sell it!!!!

urban-rider
07-22-2003, 06:41 PM
If you were not in school and had a good job, you could buy two cameras (remeber i know shit all) and buy a dualie aswell and keep your .243!! you wont have enough time to use the camera when your in school

Cheese
07-22-2003, 08:17 PM
Fergs - what are the flaws of the D60?

Originally posted by Zaskar
i dont understand why anyone would spend so much money on a HOBBY camera.

How about reading the HOLE thread before you say a HOBBY camera.


i think picture quality matters when you get to the point where magazines will only publish your stuff IF you get it. i dont see the point in an expensive camera to learn on.

I think I've already "learned" a great deal of things, and I'm ready to move up.

also, why digital? remember it doesnt stop there.

Digital is the way of the future. its becomming more and more popular and I'd rather not take a step backwards. I realize that film is an important part of everything, I'm borrowing a 1500 dollar US film camera for a week and I'm gona play around with it as much as possible, I'll probabbly get it longer but you get the idea that I'm not limiting myself.


I have a high end moniter and a good photoshop.

If I want full potential with billions of colors, all I have to do is get prints of it. All I have to do is shoot in RAW mode, then throw it on a disk and take it to the photostore.

Cheese
07-22-2003, 08:30 PM
Originally posted by eddiebrannan
[B]holy shit i think i saw a post that suggested that you're only 15? if so you have no business with nor need for a camera like that. what you need to do is work on your basic photography skills. aperture, exposure, different results with different FILM (yes film), darkroom skills and so forth.

I'm 16 turning 17 soon. I have worked plenty on my aperature and exposure and my ISO and shutter speeds and what not with my power shot S40. I will learn to devolpe film when I take photography next year in school.

no-one ever wants to hear it but you need to learn to walk before you can run, and buying a super-expensive digital camera at this stage, when your eye is still developing, is going to be actually detrimental to what you want to achieve, because it will provide you with too many shortcuts to a superficially "correct" picture.

Cant I already run though? Everyone here on NSMB says I take great pictures. I've got 2 magazine companies that have asked for my photos, and Cam Mcrea has used two of my shots in his latest article about slopestyles.

There is never a 'correct' picture.

There can be a good picture, and a great picture. Do you know the difference?

do NOT sell your bike for this camera.

:cry: I really dont wana man, ive been dying to ride it, I dont think you know what its like to spend so long saving and building something you love so much and throw it away before you even get a chance to ride it.


if you plan to do this for a living then you need to master it. that come s form you, not some digital camera that you'll be able to buy for half the dough on eBay in a year. be patient young jedi

Mastering photography takes YEARS. I know that, I'm sure fergs has only learned about 70% of all photography, professionals still learn things.

Actually, A 2 year old camera that cost 3700 dollars US, is still 3700 dollars US. I checked everywhere to make sure I was right and I was, this has happened for more than one camera I've looked at.

Be patiant is right, thats probabbly the best advice I could get.

scottvelez
07-22-2003, 08:34 PM
Originally posted by Cheese
Digital is the way of the future. its becomming more and more popular and I'd rather not take a step backwards.


True, but that doesn't mean it's good value for your money. I remember when 'large' hard disks were the way of the future. I spent over $1400 on a 70megabyte hard drive! Was I leading the pack? Definitely! Did I spend the money wisely? NO.


All I have to do is shoot in RAW mode, then throw it on a disk and take it to the photostore.

You have to convert the RAW files to 8-bit JPG before labs are able to make prints of your files.

Which brings up the point of 'software'. What software are you going to use to convert RAW to TIF or JPG? What software are you going to use to catalog your hundreds and thousands of images? How will you back-up your RAW files and the 30mb converted TIF files? You can't leave the files on your hard drive. If it crashes, you can easily loose a years worth of work.

These are not hard problems to solve, but you can't solve them with out spending money. Make sure you budget for software and additional computer hardware, not just for the camera.

scott

Cheese
07-22-2003, 09:08 PM
Very very good points scott, I've taken all your advice and come up with the following.

this lense - http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2940926074&category=30067

this flash - http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2941366496&category=43456

these extra batterys - http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2940595526&category=43447

this camera - http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2942054283&category=43456

scottvelez
07-22-2003, 09:20 PM
If you want quality, buy a real Nikon or Canon "L" lens. Something like the following. Fergs can help you with the Canon models.
http://www.kerrisdalecamera.com/store/product.asp?&dept_id=4028&pf_id=025.14367&more=true

The flash is good - same with the batteries, but keep in mind you will want three or four batteries when you go to an event. They you will want to buy a 'quick' charger and maybe 'car' charger too.
With digital's, if your batteries die, you die. You can't keep shooting.

That camera is *way* underpriced. I smell a scam.
Expect to pay something closer to $2200US for a used one.

scott

Cheese
07-22-2003, 10:44 PM
This is what I'm going for now

Canon EOS-10D 6.3MP Digital SLR Camera (Body Only)
Seller: powerseller123
$1149.99

Canon 550 EX Flash
Seller: Adorama Camera Inc
$329.95

Canon BP511 1100mAh Lithium Ion Battery Pack
$43.99

Canon EF 24-85mm F/3.5-4.5 USM Lens for Canon-AF Camera
$309.94

Subtotal: $1,833.87
CDN = 2588.69

Jake5253
07-22-2003, 11:07 PM
I hnow im gunna get hate letters in the m,ail for this but if it were me i would sell the bullit, with a hardtail u get everything... except fopr the 10+ foot high drops...

JaKe

Cheese
07-22-2003, 11:19 PM
Originally posted by Jake5253
I hnow im gunna get hate letters in the m,ail for this but if it were me i would sell the bullit, with a hardtail u get everything... except fopr the 10+ foot high drops...

JaKe


Your not gona get hate mail. Every input is apprechated.


However, I dont want to sell the bullit because I really enjoy DH and whistler. This is my plan

1)Sell hole .243

2)Sell current camera (powershot S40 w/ extra batter pack, carry case, 16 MB memory card, and a tele photo / fish eye lense that you have to hold up to the camera)

3)buy camera

4)sell bullit frame

5)buy devinci freeride frame.

BC_Hucker
07-23-2003, 01:12 AM
danny, may I ask why a devenci hardtail frame?
Also, good luck with the cam, just make the right choice on selling the .243, if you arent sure about it, then maybe keep it for a while and shoot with your cam, until your sure waht you wanna do...
but. its 100% your choice, not some person on the internets choice.

BC_Hucker
07-23-2003, 01:15 AM
nevermind the why the devenci, i just saw a pic of the 2004 and its sooooo nice.

scottvelez
07-23-2003, 02:28 AM
Originally posted by Cheese
This is what I'm going for now
...


NSMB Bulletin Board | Photos & Vids | What Do You Think?

I think you are spending four times as much on the camera body as you are on the lens. This is completely ass backwards from what the pros say you should do.
That's what I think ;-)

But good luck, I'm sure you will have lots of fun with it.

scott

fergs
07-23-2003, 03:35 AM
In the span of an hour and half you completely changed your mind about which camera, lens, flash etc. to buy. I think you need to sit on it for a while yet and really think about what it is that you want. I was going to say that if you went with the selection of Nikon stuff you listed, you would be limiting yourself with only that telephoto lens and so you should think of a different lens. If you don't know why you'd be limiting yourself then perhaps you should understand the equipment a little better before diving in and shelling out so much $$$. The lens you listed with the Canon stuff is a little more flexible.

Oh yeah, doesn't a battery come with the camera? Or do you want to have a back-up battery? (it's a good idea)

If I were you I'd keep the hard tail and sell the squish :D ht's are the shite!

bullit_kid
07-23-2003, 03:46 AM
danny ride the .243 before you make the decision :|

Cheese
07-23-2003, 05:07 AM
BC Hucker, its not the devinci hardtail I want, its the devinci DH frame, 7 - 8.5 inches of pure sexy manitou swinger plushness.


Fergs - I know what you mean, I have to be paitent and make sure I know what I'm getting into. I simply cant afford the nikon. its 300 dollars US more, and I'm spending every penny of my hardtail and every penny of my current cam to invest in the final list of what I've come up with. Not everything is set in stone, I've still got a lot of thinking to do. I'm buying the battery pack as a spare. They're really useful. I always run out on the current digi cam. (I have a spare.) Do you think the Canon EF 24-85mm F/3.5-4.5 USM Lens will be good for me? I can't really spend more than 400 US on a lense, any suggestions are really really really helpful to me. I've been reading digital SLR forums for about 5 houres today, I'm trying to learn as much as possible just so I can get more of an idea about the lenses and what not.


Scott - The Canon D10 is the cheapest digital camera body. I'm on a budget, and I'd just like to intoduce myself into it a bit before I buy the really expensive lenses. The Canon EF 24-85mm F/3.5-4.5 USM lens is $650 US and I think its a pretty decent lense. But I still dont know very much about them and would still like to learn more. Suggestions are awsome. :)

scottvelez
07-23-2003, 05:24 AM
Since you will have only one lens, I would go with one that has a bit more range. You won't notice much difference between 24mm and 85mm... and even your S40 can zoom in more.

I'm not really familiar with Canon lenses, but I would check and see if they have a 28-105 or something similar.

scott

sir HUCK-A-LOT
07-23-2003, 05:29 AM
brody...i read the whole post and i have seen you ina ctiona nd the shots you take. they are good. but you are still very young son. if i recall you haven't been in this game of photography for very long at all. you still have oodles and oodles to learn.

photography can be compared to biking. you dont start out on a vps1 with all the goodies...you start out with training wheels, then canadian tire, then walmart, then maybe a second hand used mountain bike then a new hardtail and then a dually....

i know you love this camera thing...hell i was into the whole film thing 14 months ago. almost dropped $25,000 into going to film skool but luckily ducked out of that one.

what im trying to say is maybe you shouldn't rush this. keep taking the photos on that cmaera you got and perfect your art. once you have got it all dialed on that then maybe switch cameras. but i would say you still have a long way to go. no offense is intended at all. i suck at photography. i have the eye for it but got no skill at it. dont rush anything. be patient and the time will come. now i know you will prolly read this and say "damn you arnold why would i listen to you you destroyed my mini bike!!!"
well take this into consideration. i have been in your place...granted not long ago...and granted i am only a few years older than you. but iw as there. and i remember it. i also know that what i wanted ever so badly then i snot what i want now. and i am glad i didn't get some of the things.

take some time on this one. think it through.

i will say this though. if you do choose to go down this avenue get ready to pay big time. and trust me. being a student is really hard to afford anything.
you are not only looking at camera, lenses, lights, meters and allt hat stuff. but you are looking at tons of $$$ into film (unless you do get a digi) which in the case you do that get ready to fork out another $3000 or so for a computer. then prolly have to pay for the software for that, and then learnt o use it.
my buddy went to film skool this year. he has spent apart from the $8000 on video camera, and the $25000 on film skool, another $4000 on a decent laptop, another $4000 on a computer for the house with 21 inch screen and then oodles and oodles of money on software.

now that only gets you the tools. then comes the gas money and travel fees to get to the events, room and board and allt hat stuff. its an expensive industry.

i have heard many photographers say that it is so expensive to shoot stuff nowadays, and its almost not worht shooting things unless they now they will get a cover shot out of it because the money they waste otherwise they will never see back.

i know these things seem a little easy now...but wait til you graduate and the real world hits you hard. you'll learn quick that somtimes you gotta be patient and just wait things out.


my 2 cents....

sir HUCK-A-LOT
07-23-2003, 05:30 AM
might i add....take some time and maybe see if you can have a real sitdown conversation with some photographers from around here and ask them about what they have experianced. job shadow kinda thing.

Cheese
07-23-2003, 05:36 AM
I'll just go to the camera store and try out every lense until I find one that I like :)

http://www.canon.ca/english/index-products.asp?lng=en&gid=2&sgid=7&alk=34

scottvelez
07-23-2003, 05:52 AM
Originally posted by fergs
Hmm I was under the impression that this lens was specifically designed for digi slr's (obviously it can also be used for film slr's as well).
http://www.canon.ca/english/index-products.asp?lng=en&prodid=71&sgid=7&gid=2&ovr=1


Yes, that is the 'digital' version. The previous version was the 17-35mm. I don't spend a lot of time reading the Canon forums, but I do remember reading that Canon added micro-lens to the 1Ds sensor and tweaked the firmware to help correct the chromatic aberations. This technique arguably works, but it's a 'hack' for a problem common in all DSLRs (Nikon's too) - that being, the lens mount was designed years ago - for FILM characteristics!

Film doesn't mind light striking it at something other than 90 degrees. Digital photosites on the other hand, sit in tiny little 'wells' and photons have to strike the chip at a fairly steep angle to make it down into the photosite.

So the current techniques to fix this are:
1) completely redesign the lens mount - this is what Olympus is doing with their 4/3rds system and what Contax is doing with their big 35mm digital body
2) use micro-lens and firmware to help correct for chromatic aberations (redesigned, modern wide-angle lenses like the 16-35mm can help too). This is what Canon is doing with the full-frame 1Ds
3) screw full-frame. instead, design a special purpose 'digital' lens specifically designed for wide-angle shots using the current 35mm lens mount. This is what Nikon is doing this. See http://www.nikonusa.com/usa_product/product.jsp?cat=1&grp=5&productNr=2144NAS for more info.

Only time will tell how these three options pan out.



It's my favourite lens at the moment, it's unbelievably sharp. But it saddens me that I can't get down to 16mm with it, but rather only 26mm.

True. Currently, you have two options with Canon. Purchase the full-frame 1Ds for $8,000US or wait until Canon makes a special 'digital' lens that provides wide angles using the current lens mount (~$1,000US).

scott

SHIZONIC
07-23-2003, 06:06 AM
:| DUDE!!! You haven't even ridin that bike yet.

I agree with trevor... keep your bike and just get a job

fergs
07-23-2003, 06:28 AM
Danny - Canon makes a 28-135mm lens that would be a decent first lens, it's not too expensive either. I think it's around $600 CDN. Also note - it's "lens", not "lense" :)

If you're reading the forums on dpreview.com then I suggest you stop and don't waste any more time. A lot of the people on that forum like to post pictures of their lens collections rather than pictures they've taken with the lenses. Lots of childish arguing going on in those forums.

Scott - nice info about the full frame sensors etc. That's good tech speak that I enjoy, being a geek at heart. I am going to wait and see what Canon comes up with over the next year and half or so before plunking down on another digital camera so I'm not really in any rush.

Cheese
07-23-2003, 06:44 AM
Originally posted by fergs
Danny - Canon makes a 28-135mm lens that would be a decent first lens, it's not too expensive either. I think it's around $600 CDN. Also note - it's "lens", not "lense" :)

If you're reading the forums on dpreview.com then I suggest you stop and don't waste any more time. A lot of the people on that forum like to post pictures of their lens collections rather than pictures they've taken with the lenses. Lots of childish arguing going on in those forums.



Nice, I'll have a thrul (sp?) look at the lens.

I was looking at dpreview for about half an hour, I realized that it was basically full of assholes. Some really mean comments for people asking simple questions. I got an email from Big_Fish and he gave me a link to a DV site that had some forums and there was one thread about digital SLR cameras, best bang for your buck basically, theres 7 pages of talk that I was reading a lot of, extreamly useful information.

scottvelez
07-23-2003, 06:49 AM
Care to share the link?

s

Cheese
07-23-2003, 07:08 AM
With the new lense everything will be

2,715.75 cdn. I'm thinking I'll ask the parents for a bit of money on this one, I'll pay 2500 and they can pay the rest.


This one scott?

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/B00006I53S/103-0117723-4130236?v=glance&me=A17MC6HOH9AVE6&st=photo

or are you talking to fergs?

scottvelez
07-23-2003, 07:16 AM
Sorry, I meant the link Big_Fish gave you. The DV site.

scott

Cheese
07-23-2003, 07:33 AM
1) http://www.digitaljournalist.org/

2) - forum - http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?threadid=11555

Cheese
07-24-2003, 06:13 AM
What do you think Scott?

Joe Dick
07-24-2003, 07:56 AM
Originally posted by superman_4
lets see some pics of your bike

what he said.

Cheese
07-24-2003, 08:02 AM
Originally posted by Joe Dick
what he said.


I'm disapointed...how about you finnish reading the thread?

But since I'm so nice ...

http://www.members.shaw.ca/djrb180/243six.jpg

Joe Dick
07-24-2003, 09:53 AM
I read whole thread, and there be some good advice in there, I'z just wanted to be sure you could take a decent pic before giving giving my .000002c about buying a hi-zoot camera, and I'm still not sure.

Film is cheap if you think about your shots, slides capture a high quality image. The price of digi stuff will only drop in the next few years as quality goes up. used SLR's go for next to nothing.

scottvelez
07-24-2003, 06:23 PM
Originally posted by scottv
If you are a 'sports' shooter, you need fast auto-focus, fast shots per second rate, fast flash sync speeds and large memory buffers. In the Nikon lineup, this would be the 'D2H' body. In Canon's lineup, you would want the '1D'.


If anyone is interested, here is a firstlook at the Nikon D2H (sports photography camera)
http://www.letsgodigital.be/webpages/firstlook/nikon/slr/D2H_UK1.html

scott

fergs
07-24-2003, 08:33 PM
Originally posted by scottv
If anyone is interested, here is a firstlook at the Nikon D2H (sports photography camera)
http://www.letsgodigital.be/webpages/firstlook/nikon/slr/D2H_UK1.html

scott


Pretty sweet. I like the wireless image transfer idea, tha's good stuff. Set your laptop within range of the transmitter and run around taking photos. Awesome idea.

Cheese
07-24-2003, 08:51 PM
Originally posted by scottv
If anyone is interested, here is a firstlook at the Nikon D2H (sports photography camera)
http://www.letsgodigital.be/webpages/firstlook/nikon/slr/D2H_UK1.html

scott


All I can say is WOW. 8 FPS :drool: The newly devolped flash that works with a 1/800th of a second shutter. :| And that wireless transmission is an amazing idea. Theres gotta be a heafty cost to that baby.

Cheese
07-24-2003, 08:55 PM
Originally posted by Joe Dick
I read whole thread, and there be some good advice in there, I'z just wanted to be sure you could take a decent pic before giving giving my .000002c about buying a hi-zoot camera, and I'm still not sure.


I dont know if I'm that great, but heres my site for you to check out but I havn't updated it in a month or two.

www.pbase.com/dannybrody/

read the "first time at oak" thread as well. :)

oldschl81
07-24-2003, 11:11 PM
i would definately shop on ebay for a deal.

spent $2700 from this shop on ebay.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2934275499

always buy from them .never a problem.


3 yr extended warranty was an additional $110

adorama is another good ebayer

nice website too

http://www.adorama.com

Joe Dick
07-24-2003, 11:30 PM
Your preaty gook kid, but I don't think you need a $2000 Camera to get better. Just keep shooting. Keep your head up and your eyes open. :rocker:

scottvelez
07-25-2003, 05:19 AM
Originally posted by Cheese
All I can say is WOW. 8 FPS
...
Theres gotta be a heafty cost to that baby.

Yes. It's rumored to be about $3500 US.

scott

Cheese
07-25-2003, 05:22 AM
Originally posted by scottv
Yes. It's rumored to be about $3500 US.

scott


Wow. I bet its worth ever ypenny, that camera is so nice. What do you use scott?

scottvelez
07-25-2003, 05:26 AM
When I ride, I usually use the FM2n. It's by far my favorite camera. Never needs batteries and the flash syncs at 1/250th.

http://www.bythom.com/fm2n.htm

scott

ryan
07-25-2003, 05:55 AM
Originally posted by Cheese


Digital is the way of the future. its becomming more and more popular and I'd rather not take a step backwards.


wait until the future then. by purchasing a mid-range digital SLR now, are you really taking a step forwards as opposed to going film?

i may not have 3 links and big acronyms to back this up, but you'd probably be taking backwards steps in picture quality by going the route that you are leaning towards right now. but then again, that's just an assumption.

digital is the way of the future - but what is the camera type that is constantly being outdated? (hint: not film)

scottvelez
07-25-2003, 06:09 AM
If you want to know about digital vs. film quality, this is a good link. It's best to read the whole thing, but for those of you in a hurry, scroll about half way down to see the side-by-side comparison of film and digital.

http://www.clarkvision.com/imagedetail/scandetail.html

scott

Cheese
07-25-2003, 08:34 PM
Some interesting reads Scott. Looks like film is better in the end, but I sure think its more expensive and more of a hastle to get them onto a computer.

What camera do you use when your not riding?

scottvelez
07-25-2003, 11:43 PM
Heh..heh.. you're going to laugh.

http://www.olympusamerica.com/cpg_section/cpg_product_lobbypage.asp?l=1&sc=1&bc=4&p=11&product=291

but it has a really sharp f/2.8 lens, fill-flash and a spot meter!

scott

Cheese
07-26-2003, 02:45 AM
Originally posted by scottv
Heh..heh.. you're going to laugh.

http://www.olympusamerica.com/cpg_section/cpg_product_lobbypage.asp?l=1&sc=1&bc=4&p=11&product=291

but it has a really sharp f/2.8 lens, fill-flash and a spot meter!

scott

I guess it really is true when they say its not the camera that makes the good picture.

banjopete
07-26-2003, 08:45 PM
I know this might be too obvious a point to be making at this point in the thread, but if you are still in highschool, not working, you are wasting 4 months of earning potential.

Even at minimum wage, wherever it is now, you would earn more than enough to cover the cost of all the equipment you want, and then some. Just think, wouldn't you give up sleeping in everyday until 1pm for the camera? Or don't you think you have time to spare 4 or five days a week that you wouldn't mind trading for a couple of hundred bucks?

I want, I want, I want. Get a job, keep your bikes, buy your cameras. Making a minimum of $80's a month is not going to cover any incidental expenses that come up with your camera, so what's next, "I don't really like bikes anyway, so I'll just sell the bullit".