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lowetyler
07-17-2003, 04:43 AM
Hey,
Just got up a couple of pics of my new bike, its a Kuwahara Matrix 2, 2003, 14", 4130. These frames are really cheap cost wise, but as I have come to learn, they really perform well. They are alot alike (Almost exact) with the .243 frames, the only differences being the larger downtube, and the absence of the three holes in the headtube gusset.

I have it built with 2002 Shiver SC, Profiles, Dual Singletracks (26/24), Hayes 8/6 Hydros With custom Levers, Blackspire Chainguide (Not in pic, the one in pic is Truvativ), Axiom Saddle, and other mismatched parts.

Hope you enjoy!

Tyler

Bare with me, ill get the links




lowetyler
07-17-2003, 04:48 AM
(1)
http://groups.msn.com/MountainBikingTalk/shoebox.msnw?action=ShowPhoto&PhotoID=85

(2)
http://groups.msn.com/MountainBikingTalk/shoebox.msnw?action=ShowPhoto&PhotoID=86

launch rider
07-17-2003, 04:59 AM
how much are those frmaes worth

lowetyler
07-17-2003, 05:07 AM
Originally posted by launch rider
how much are those frmaes worth

Mine was $350 after taxes, and with a seatpost.
I was looking for something cheap, because my ClifCat Tankass will be coming back from warrenty fairly quick, and if this frame works out, im keeping it and selling the Cat.

Chakalaka Rider
07-17-2003, 05:31 AM
What's its BB size?

lowetyler
07-17-2003, 05:33 AM
Originally posted by Chakalaka Rider
What's its BB size?

...Im not even sure, my MTB Profiles fit, if that helps.

Zaskar
07-17-2003, 05:35 AM
i like :)
i run profile dhs cranks with FSA cups.

here's mine...
http://www.pinkbike.com/modules/photo/?op=view&image=88250

Chakalaka Rider
07-17-2003, 05:48 AM
Originally posted by lowetyler
...Im not even sure, my MTB Profiles fit, if that helps.

It's alright, because I have a 68mm bb width, if the Kuwahara Matrix II frame uses 73mm then I'd have to buy a new bb because mine aren't adjustable. Well it's all good for $350 I guess I could afford a new bb too. Looks like a sweet bike have fun! I might get one too if I sold my frame.

FOX
07-17-2003, 06:30 AM
Originally posted by lowetyler
Hey,
Just got up a couple of pics of my new bike, its a Kuwahara Matrix 2, 2003, 14", 4130. These frames are really cheap cost wise, but as I have come to learn, they really perform well. They are alot alike (Almost exact) with the .243 frames, the only differences being the larger downtube, and the absence of the three holes in the headtube gusset.

I have it built with 2002 Shiver SC, Profiles, Dual Singletracks (26/24), Hayes 8/6 Hydros With custom Levers, Blackspire Chainguide (Not in pic, the one in pic is Truvativ), Axiom Saddle, and other mismatched parts.

Hope you enjoy!

Tyler

Bare with me, ill get the links

How do you feel about supporting a company that took one of my first production frames (that I worked my ass off on) over to china to be copied with a few changes to keep it legal (and cheap)?

I don't care - just curious. :)

FOX

Chakalaka Rider
07-17-2003, 06:37 AM
Umm I don't know what to say. Umm, the Matrix II's made in China?

IFO
07-17-2003, 06:38 AM
cloned bikes are no different from any other item u can purchase...

what is it with steel bikes and Black ???

couldnt they at least paint the frame in White or something... god i hate black...:mad:

WBC
07-17-2003, 06:41 AM
Originally posted by FOX
How do you feel about supporting a company that took one of my first production frames (that I worked my ass off on) over to china to be copied with a few changes to keep it legal (and cheap)?

I don't care - just curious. :)

FOX

I like you :)

Honestly, I couldn't ride one, even if it were free because it's hella shady. I'm not one of those guys who is all obsessed about morals, but rippin somebody off is hella sketch...especially when the person getting ripped is wicked cool.

IBIKE
07-17-2003, 06:41 AM
Originally posted by FOX
How do you feel about supporting a company that took one of my first production frames (that I worked my ass off on) over to china to be copied with a few changes to keep it legal (and cheap)?

I don't care - just curious. :)

FOX i dont get it...Its a steel hardtail with a gusset. It looks just a much like my old kona or most other hardtails as a .243. How is it such a direct copy of .243? I'm obviously missing something.

Chakalaka Rider
07-17-2003, 06:45 AM
Originally posted by IFO
cloned bikes are no different from any other item u can purchase...

what is it with steel bikes and Black ???

couldnt they at least paint the frame in White or something... god i hate black...:mad:

It's a steel bike? Wow actaully I thought it was Al.

mike
07-17-2003, 07:19 AM
balfa had a steel hardtail before 243 did

lowetyler
07-17-2003, 07:26 AM
Originally posted by FOX
How do you feel about supporting a company that took one of my first production frames (that I worked my ass off on) over to china to be copied with a few changes to keep it legal (and cheap)?

I don't care - just curious. :)

FOX

Its nothing against you or anything, but I dont really care. For 2 reasons, (And if they are wrong, please point it out)

1) The demand on your frames is huge, with or without these frames being produced.

2) I needed a temporay bike, and I cant justify spending near $600 for a frame im going to be using for a little over a month.

Im not trying to go anti-.243 or anything, because I think your frames are killer, but a question for you... (Once again, try to take as light hearted as possibe)

Lets switch roles for a moment,and say you were in my position. Would you be able to justify spending almost double on something that ill be selling in a month?

-Tyler

KOW49
07-17-2003, 08:16 AM
I bought my 4 hun frame for 300 $ normal price at shops
I guess thats steel tho

Neo
07-17-2003, 09:33 AM
its also got welden on vee brake bosses. 243's have bolt on for both wheel sizes or without for disc. sweet bike.

Zaskar
07-17-2003, 09:53 AM
Originally posted by IBIKE
i dont get it...Its a steel hardtail with a gusset. It looks just a much like my old kona or most other hardtails as a .243. How is it such a direct copy of .243? I'm obviously missing something.

it's a copy dude, i know who "designed" it. they sent a frame over and came back with this. this is straight from his mouth.

I'm sorry Eric. If it helps this is my backup frame. I swap parts and have a Z1 for when i wanna ride a HT. My primary ride is my Banshee Sceam (another locally designed bike :)) so I'm not one for supporting rip off bikes (in fact, no decals). I got the matrix for 130$, i couldnt say no.

It was never an issue of backstabbing a company or supporting someone profiting off your work. It was an issue of the shop i worked at having Asama catalogues and me ordering myself one in to play around on.

On the flipside.

for kids just getting in to street this frame is great. cheap'ish and descent geometry. not every 12 year old can afford a .243....and price tags speak leaps and bounds for parents who are reluctant to buy their 12 or 13 year old kid a bike they may just grow tired of as they get older.

Cam.

oldschl81
07-17-2003, 02:27 PM
Originally posted by IFO
cloned bikes are no different from any other item u can purchase...

what is it with steel bikes and Black ???

couldnt they at least paint the frame in White or something... god i hate black...:mad:

Thank god someone else agrees with me.

only colors i see these days is black,raw

or

um..

black and raw.

FOX
07-17-2003, 03:47 PM
Originally posted by IBIKE
i dont get it...Its a steel hardtail with a gusset. It looks just a much like my old kona or most other hardtails as a .243. How is it such a direct copy of .243? I'm obviously missing something.

You are missing some thing:

I never said it was a direct copy.

However, they are more than open about sending one of our first 15" frames out to a factory to be imitated withthhe following changes:
- longer ST
- longer CS
- different DT
- remove cut outs from gussets
- less tire clearence

I even mentioned to them that if they want help designing a frame give me a call. Its just a lazy/lame way of doing something.


FOX

FOX
07-17-2003, 03:50 PM
Originally posted by mike
balfa had a steel hardtail before 243 did

????????????

Are you OK?

Its not about material.

Hundreds of frame companies have been using cromo before balfa (30 years+ befoe). What is your point?

FOX

FOX
07-17-2003, 03:53 PM
Originally posted by lowetyler
Its nothing against you or anything, but I dont really care. For 2 reasons, (And if they are wrong, please point it out)

1) The demand on your frames is huge, with or without these frames being produced.

2) I needed a temporay bike, and I cant justify spending near $600 for a frame im going to be using for a little over a month.

Im not trying to go anti-.243 or anything, because I think your frames are killer, but a question for you... (Once again, try to take as light hearted as possibe)

Lets switch roles for a moment,and say you were in my position. Would you be able to justify spending almost double on something that ill be selling in a month?

-Tyler

Hi Ty,

I am not concered or bothered by it at all.
I just wanted to stir some shit up and keep people thinking.
I understand your position, however, I am a very morral, honest person, and I just couldn't support such activity.
Sorry.

FOX

FOX
07-17-2003, 03:57 PM
Originally posted by Zaskar
it's a copy dude, i know who "designed" it. they sent a frame over and came back with this. this is straight from his mouth.

I'm sorry Eric. If it helps this is my backup frame. I swap parts and have a Z1 for when i wanna ride a HT. My primary ride is my Banshee Sceam (another locally designed bike :)) so I'm not one for supporting rip off bikes (in fact, no decals). I got the matrix for 130$, i couldnt say no.

It was never an issue of backstabbing a company or supporting someone profiting off your work. It was an issue of the shop i worked at having Asama catalogues and me ordering myself one in to play around on.

On the flipside.

for kids just getting in to street this frame is great. cheap'ish and descent geometry. not every 12 year old can afford a .243....and price tags speak leaps and bounds for parents who are reluctant to buy their 12 or 13 year old kid a bike they may just grow tired of as they get older.

Cam.

Oh God.
I am cool with the matrix.
I am just stiring the pot for fun.
I do agree it makes for a good low budget/quality frame for beginners to get going.
It would have been a better move to call me ask me to design a frame, but this is how our weird ass industry seems to work.

FOX

IBIKE
07-17-2003, 06:34 PM
Originally posted by FOX


imitated withthhe following changes:
- longer ST
- longer CS
- different DT
- remove cut outs from gussets
- less tire clearence

FOX

it seems to me like thats a totally different bike esp. as far as hardtails go. So what was actually copied?

FOX
07-17-2003, 07:25 PM
Originally posted by IBIKE
it seems to me like thats a totally different bike esp. as far as hardtails go. So what was actually copied?

I am not saying its the same.

I am saying its different.

Am I writing this wrong???

What would be the same?
- stays.
- drop outs.
- gusset (not really).

I am sorry, but when I design some thing I work my ass off on it.
I don't send another companies product to some factory, and say "copy this, but this and this different so it's legal".

Now do you get the piont.

I am not stating that there is copy catting going on.

I am stiring the pot to get you guys to look at the industry and see how some of the shifty side of it works.

Education is all I am giving you.

FOX

Mot
07-17-2003, 08:36 PM
Originally posted by FOX


However, they are more than open about sending one of our first 15" frames out to a factory to be imitated withthhe following changes:
- longer ST
- longer CS
- different DT
- remove cut outs from gussets
- less tire clearence

I even mentioned to them that if they want help designing a frame give me a call. Its just a lazy/lame way of doing something.


FOX

i don't think they have the wishbone seat stay either but i could be wrong.

FOX
07-17-2003, 08:39 PM
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Mot

Cheese
07-17-2003, 08:46 PM
Thats why I have a .243 :)

mike
07-17-2003, 08:51 PM
Originally posted by FOX
????????????

Are you OK?

Its not about material.

Hundreds of frame companies have been using cromo before balfa (30 years+ befoe). What is your point?

FOX

not meaning to stir shit up but the 243 wasnt the first steel ht neither was the balfa
i think people will realize that the kuwahara is not the same quality as a 243 and balfa and stick to those frames
i would rather have a balfa or a 243 over a kuwahara but if it came down to the money. well yeah

are there any new 15's made? i cant ride a 13" hardtail theyre too small for me

lowetyler
07-17-2003, 09:55 PM
Originally posted by FOX
Hi Ty,

I am not concered or bothered by it at all.
I just wanted to stir some shit up and keep people thinking.
I understand your position, however, I am a very morral, honest person, and I just couldn't support such activity.
Sorry.

FOX

Thanks for opening up my (and im sure many other's) minds though, really clears up some false acusations about what has been going on with these frames.

I consider myself and honest, moral person also, but in the end, everything comes down to money, doesnt it?

-Tyler

FOX
07-17-2003, 10:00 PM
Originally posted by lowetyler
Thanks for opening up my (and im sure many other's) minds though, really clears up some false acusations about what has been going on with these frames.

I consider myself and honest, moral person also, but in the end, everything comes down to money, doesnt it?

-Tyler

It does to an extent, but I am a bit of an extremist.
We had a big discussion on this some time ago.
But, myself, I will go great lenghts for service and quality.
For example, I will go out of my way to the little family run corner stores (past the Safeway, etc.) to pay more for higher quality produce and better service. I do not have much money, so this means I have to eat less food.
To me it's worth it.

FOX

damian
07-18-2003, 12:23 AM
Originally posted by FOX
It does to an extent, but I am a bit of an extremist.
We had a big discussion on this some time ago.
But, myself, I will go great lenghts for service and quality.
For example, I will go out of my way to the little family run corner stores (past the Safeway, etc.) to pay more for higher quality produce and better service. I do not have much money, so this means I have to eat less food.
To me it's worth it.

FOX


Agreed. I would support .243, and I don't understand why they didn't just let you help them. My friend has a .243 and its a sweet bike, if I ever have enough cash I will get one for sure.

trail worker
07-18-2003, 02:52 AM
decent looking frame.
as far as the 243 vs. kuwahara goes...
i'll be honest.if i had the 600 bucks to buy a hardtail frame,i'd *probably,but not surely get the 243*...it's an awesome bike,but if i was building up a hardtail to ride occasionally,i would probably jsut buy a kuwahara and spend some of theleft over money on parts.
I'm sorry,i'm usually a very moral person,but for some reason this doesn't seem to be a big deal to me.i'm sure though,if i was in you're shoes FOX,that i would be having a shitfit.
i don't find the frames very similiar.alot of bikes have gussets,etc etc.i know you are telling everyone they arn't the same,but the concept is still there...other company's could accuse you for christ sakes!
the double diamond/gusseted headtube/adjustable brake bosses/curved stay's have been used for what,almost 3 or 4 years now?(24bikes was one of the first with the adjustable brake bosses).

C.C.
07-18-2003, 03:16 AM
Originally posted by trail worker
the double diamond/gusseted headtube/adjustable brake bosses/curved stay's have been used for what,almost 3 or 4 years now?(24bikes was one of the first with the adjustable brake bosses).


Yep. It seems like copying is part of the innovation process for bikes. A good design is often copied. Once the original design gets copied, it's then that something new and innovative is created again.

For example: v-brakes. Used to be high end gucci material, but now it's on department store bikes.

Here is another example: 24 bikes with their adjustable rear locking wheel base. It looks .243 is doing a very similar, if not the same design? Is it not the same design?

I'm all for innovation, but it really sucks to have your product stolen/ used without your permission.

cam
07-18-2003, 05:52 AM
Originally posted by FOX
It does to an extent, but I am a bit of an extremist.
We had a big discussion on this some time ago.
But, myself, I will go great lenghts for service and quality.
For example, I will go out of my way to the little family run corner stores (past the Safeway, etc.) to pay more for higher quality produce and better service. I do not have much money, so this means I have to eat less food.
To me it's worth it.

FOX

I wholeheartedly concur - I'd just like to voice my completely complying opinion, and the fact that I couldn't have written that better myself.

Cam

Ernesto Koba
07-18-2003, 07:02 AM
hey FOX, I looked real close at one of your frames, when I thought I was in the market for a FR HT. It's a sweet ride for sure, answering a lot of the complaints I have with most companies HT's. But in then end what it came down to is that I don't want a hucker, or DS bike, which most kick ass HT are aiming for. I'm no Hucker by any means.
I love work aspect of getting there riding as much as I love the tec trials like ground work. What I'm looking for is a go any where do any thing CroMo HT. some thing that will handle the long days as well as rail the steeps. Have you ever though of produsing a simmiler frame with a taller seat tube, longer seat stays, a slightly longer top tube, and slightly tighter HT angle?. (now I'm realy getting picky :rolleyes: ) Something like the first gen F.O.R., but with a higher BB hight for better climbing and gereral messing about.
It's your frame, I'm not bitching, just commenting. I'm not sure what kind of market there whould be for it, but I do know of a small hand full of interior boy and girls who are into something of the likes, for getting way the fuck out and back in style.

theoriginalhardcore
07-18-2003, 05:55 PM
i would get the .243 any day over the kuwahara just because its made right here in canada

eeyun
07-18-2003, 06:03 PM
Originally posted by theoriginalhardcore
i would get the .243 any day over the kuwahara just because its made right here in canada

psst. they're designed in Canada, fabricated overseas ;)

I can't wait till my .243 is built up. :)

.243racer
07-18-2003, 07:17 PM
i fully support ERIC FOX and his efforts to keep the mountainbike industry thirving

^^^^^^^^^

where my loyalties lie^

FOX
07-18-2003, 07:21 PM
Originally posted by eeyun
psst. they're designed in Canada, fabricated overseas ;)

I can't wait till my .243 is built up. :)

From my brain to Taiwan to the world.

FOX

FOX
07-18-2003, 07:22 PM
Originally posted by .243racer
i fully support ERIC FOX and his efforts to keep the mountainbike industry thirving

^^^^^^^^^

where my loyalties lie^

Thanks man - I am blushing - and not from the porn I was just checking out.

FOX

Cheese
07-18-2003, 07:25 PM
heres my Kuwahara Matrix 2 :rolleyes:

http://www.members.shaw.ca/djrb180/243six.jpg

shes a babe. :D :D :D

C.C.
07-18-2003, 08:35 PM
Fox, did you work with 24 bikes to design the adjustable rear wheel base that is featured on your 03 .243 frame?

Not to question your integrity, but they look to be a similar design, if not exactly the same?

FOX
07-18-2003, 09:10 PM
Originally posted by C.C.
Fox, did you work with 24 bikes to design the adjustable rear wheel base that is featured on your 03 .243 frame?

Not to question your integrity, but they look to be a similar design, if not exactly the same?

Totally different beasts.

I designed the .243 plates before even looking at the 24 plates, then it was mentioned that I should make sure mine differ from 24, so I found a shop that carries them and went in to check them out - it all looked good - totally different.

The 24 plates are way different and smaller and used for a different purpose.

The 24 plates are used to tension the chain and or sguarley align the axle in mutliple positions using 2 locating screws and lots and lots of locating tapped holes.

The .243 uses plates with 3 locating holes and 3 bolts to lock the axle out for using a derailer. Then uses a tensions bolts for running single speed.

Its a basic chain tensioner with lock out pins - simple.

I have attched a pic.
If any one can attach a pic of the old 24 style (they changed for 04), please do so.

FOX

FOX
07-18-2003, 09:14 PM
Any one think they look the same?

FOX

Desloc
07-18-2003, 10:00 PM
Originally posted by lowetyler
Mine was $350 after taxes, and with a seatpost.
I was looking for something cheap, because my ClifCat Tankass will be coming back from warrenty fairly quick, and if this frame works out, im keeping it and selling the Cat.

Nice frame, nice price... sorry to here it's a ripoff.

Des

FOX
07-18-2003, 10:17 PM
Originally posted by C.C.
Fox, did you work with 24 bikes to design the adjustable rear wheel base that is featured on your 03 .243 frame?

Not to question your integrity, but they look to be a similar design, if not exactly the same?

Took a few more pix for you:

FOX

FOX
07-18-2003, 10:18 PM
Originally posted by FOX
Took a few more pix for you:

FOX

Biking Fiend
07-19-2003, 12:17 AM
you guys are kiss asses, no offense to fox at all but i dont care bout morals. When i buy things it comes down to price, i dont care bout supporting local or a smaller company, if it means me saving $400 then yeha ill take the one with the deal.

Jeez u guys are sayign sorry to him and everything for buyign a bike that isnt his. Maybe i should go aroudn to all the mass bike comps and say sorry for buying a norco becuase it was cheaper than there products.

C.C.
07-19-2003, 02:15 AM
Fox, thanks for the visual clarification. I see how they vary in design. The 24bikes adjustable dropout incorporates movement of the rear deraileur where as the .243 doesn't.

I guess for the .243, it makes sense for all the ss riders out there. The adjustable wheel base for both frames seem similar in appearance, (horizontal dropouts with adjustment holes above the drop out), but differ function wise.

Just out of curiousity, are you considering an adjustable wheel base system that incorporates rear deraileur adjustment too?

Colin



Originally posted by FOX
Totally different beasts.

I designed the .243 plates before even looking at the 24 plates, then it was mentioned that I should make sure mine differ from 24, so I found a shop that carries them and went in to check them out - it all looked good - totally different.

The 24 plates are way different and smaller and used for a different purpose.

The 24 plates are used to tension the chain and or sguarley align the axle in mutliple positions using 2 locating screws and lots and lots of locating tapped holes.

The .243 uses plates with 3 locating holes and 3 bolts to lock the axle out for using a derailer. Then uses a tensions bolts for running single speed.

Its a basic chain tensioner with lock out pins - simple.

I have attched a pic.
If any one can attach a pic of the old 24 style (they changed for 04), please do so.

FOX

Mr. Charles
07-19-2003, 02:45 AM
You're selling the clifcat for that?!?!?

i know a few snapped, but the Clifcat is about as SICK as freeride hardtails can get, but you're hanging on to that generic "all mountain frame"...

hahahahaha.


for me the failing of a few frames and seeing how Biill hooked everyone up with a fixed frame so damn quickly gets me going for two reasons...

1) the frames are not mass produced--the failing of a FEW means there is a person behind the frames.... someone trying to do what they love. because he was trying to advance the frame, a few broke and. It just seems very real to me. i cant really explain it.

2) when he realized that he screwed a few up he was so damn quick to take blame. he even replaced the ones that hadn't broken. (even though they most likely wouldn;t have in the end)


you can really tell that is is a living breathing company with soul... and sick frames... just like .243, Endless, Banshee, 24...

not too sure if that made sense, just my rant...

Mr. Charles
07-19-2003, 03:00 AM
Originally posted by FOX
Any one think they look the same?

FOX

that was my fisrt thought. "Oh a cheap .243" ...i had no idea i was so correct.

i understand what you're saying, and it would piss me off far more than it's pissing you off... it's just insulting in a strange way.



the same shit happens in music. these crappy derivative bands pop up like daisies every week. (Strokes, White Stripes, Datsuns...) get your own inspiration.

FOX
07-19-2003, 03:06 AM
Originally posted by Biking Fiend
you guys are kiss asses, no offense to fox at all but i dont care bout morals. When i buy things it comes down to price, i dont care bout supporting local or a smaller company, if it means me saving $400 then yeha ill take the one with the deal.

Jeez u guys are sayign sorry to him and everything for buyign a bike that isnt his. Maybe i should go aroudn to all the mass bike comps and say sorry for buying a norco becuase it was cheaper than there products.

Calm down - its not about price dude.

FOX

FOX
07-19-2003, 03:09 AM
Originally posted by C.C.
Fox, thanks for the visual clarification. I see how they vary in design. The 24bikes adjustable dropout incorporates movement of the rear deraileur where as the .243 doesn't.

I guess for the .243, it makes sense for all the ss riders out there. The adjustable wheel base for both frames seem similar in appearance, (horizontal dropouts with adjustment holes above the drop out), but differ function wise.

Just out of curiousity, are you considering an adjustable wheel base system that incorporates rear deraileur adjustment too?

Colin

The derailer doesnlt need to be adjustable with axle position to be functional.
The 24 hanger is only adjustable because it was the best way for them to make the hanger replaceable.

FOX

FOX
07-19-2003, 03:13 AM
Originally posted by BoyBoy
you can really tell that is is a living breathing company with soul... and sick frames... just like .243, Endless, Banshee, 24...

not too sure if that made sense, just my rant... [/B]

That makes loads of sense.
Thats exaclty why guys like me, Pip, endless, 24, etc. are here.
I got so sick of the crap service in this indusrty as a consumer.
I don't think any of you should stand for it.

FOX

FOX
07-19-2003, 03:13 AM
Originally posted by BoyBoy
that was my fisrt thought. "Oh a cheap .243" ...i had no idea i was so correct.

i understand what you're saying, and it would piss me off far more than it's pissing you off... it's just insulting in a strange way.



the same shit happens in music. these crappy derivative bands pop up like daisies every week. (Strokes, White Stripes, Datsuns...) get your own inspiration.

Dido.

FOX

lowetyler
07-19-2003, 06:07 AM
Originally posted by FOX
Calm down - its not about price dude.

FOX

Except, in my situation, it is 100% about price.

lowetyler
07-19-2003, 06:11 AM
Originally posted by BoyBoy
You're selling the clifcat for that?!?!?

not too sure if that made sense, just my rant...

Ill tell the story, to get a few things straight.

First of all, mine didnt snap, and to this day I still stick op for bill when people slag on ClifCat for the few snapping. Mine isnt on warrenty for snapping, either, its off getting a new headtube put on. (Yeah, laugh it up) I ran into a wall. How many people can say they have wrecked a $1000 frame after running into a wall? lol

The reason I might keep this, is it is holding up well, the geometry is better for the riding I do, and I need the money more or less.

But as it turns out, I might be losing it in a trade for a 2002 Shore anyway...

damian
07-19-2003, 06:14 AM
Originally posted by Biking Fiend
you guys are kiss asses, no offense to fox at all but i dont care bout morals. When i buy things it comes down to price, i dont care bout supporting local or a smaller company, if it means me saving $400 then yeha ill take the one with the deal.

Jeez u guys are sayign sorry to him and everything for buyign a bike that isnt his. Maybe i should go aroudn to all the mass bike comps and say sorry for buying a norco becuase it was cheaper than there products.

I don't quite agree with you. I also ride a Norco, not because it was cheap but because I researched, and found that they are quite high quality bikes. Sure finding a sweet deal is nice, can't say it isn

Chakalaka Rider
07-19-2003, 11:00 AM
actaully i dont mind riding the kuwahara i mean all bikes came from previous bikes. there's no such thing as "new" really. see all the four bar linkages out there. there r alot of that because four bar works and that's why ppl want it. xc ht all look the same to me, but can u say it's wrong that they r the same? not really. same with .243 It has a good geometry and of course ppl'd want to copy it and make a similar frame. you mentioned they change the tt, dt, st, etc to make it legal. but what if they r changin them to make it even a better frame? some riders might prefer the changes. and about the price i guess it's normal to go for things that cost less but still works. if the geometry of the matrix II works and its stregth is good i'd go for it since they r what. 350$? i guess it's not wrong to copy designs beacuse that's how ppl improve. but there is an extent i guess.

FOX
07-19-2003, 04:45 PM
Originally posted by Chakalaka Rider
actaully i dont mind riding the kuwahara i mean all bikes came from previous bikes. there's no such thing as "new" really. see all the four bar linkages out there. there r alot of that because four bar works and that's why ppl want it. xc ht all look the same to me, but can u say it's wrong that they r the same? not really. same with .243 It has a good geometry and of course ppl'd want to copy it and make a similar frame. you mentioned they change the tt, dt, st, etc to make it legal. but what if they r changin them to make it even a better frame? some riders might prefer the changes. and about the price i guess it's normal to go for things that cost less but still works. if the geometry of the matrix II works and its stregth is good i'd go for it since they r what. 350$? i guess it's not wrong to copy designs beacuse that's how ppl improve. but there is an extent i guess.

I agree to a piont.

Changes to improve was not the issue here, it was for legal issues - I have spys all over the industry.

So lets say your writing a book, and another author takes your book, changes the title and the character names, then publishes the book.

Is that right?

FOX

trail worker
07-19-2003, 06:25 PM
sorry to piss on you're parade,but i'm tired of the 243 over everything else show.it's old.
someone ripped you off,and you can't sue them for copyright infringement.
then i guess...i hate to be the person to say it...but maybe it's time to suck it up like a kick in the ball's and move on.there is nothing that you can do,except that hope that people support you more.and they seem to be doing just that,right?
there's what, 3 kuwahara frames being ridden on this board, and probably in excess of 100 times that number of 243's being ridden.
you've proven you're point that kuwahara ripped you off,but you can only kick a dead horse so many times.

FOX
07-19-2003, 06:53 PM
Originally posted by trail worker
sorry to piss on you're parade,but i'm tired of the 243 over everything else show.it's old.
someone ripped you off,and you can't sue them for copyright infringement.
then i guess...i hate to be the person to say it...but maybe it's time to suck it up like a kick in the ball's and move on.there is nothing that you can do,except that hope that people support you more.and they seem to be doing just that,right?
there's what, 3 kuwahara frames being ridden on this board, and probably in excess of 100 times that number of 243's being ridden.
you've proven you're point that kuwahara ripped you off,but you can only kick a dead horse so many times.

Wow dude - hold your hourse's - calm down.

Not sure where your heading, but I am not against anyone here.
I am simlpy educating young minds.

I am 100% not bothered by the Matrix frame - I feel it is way too different from my designs and quality to be of any concern.

We are talking about the lack of imagination in the industry as a whole.

Weather I was part of .243 or not I would be here viocing my opinions.

Chill.

FOX

KOW49
07-19-2003, 07:14 PM
Originally posted by FOX
From my brain to Taiwan to the world.

FOX


hahaah sweeet :thepimp:

trail worker
07-20-2003, 04:45 AM
Originally posted by FOX
Wow dude - hold your hourse's - calm down.

...........

Chill.

FOX
hahahaha, and i'm not even worked up!
it just seems like it's been repeated all those times.
i've heard the same points over and over again and it's time to move on.
hell,in this post alone, i read the same points made by you, me and other's at least a dozen times....now(at least)...everyone is educated alot better than the school system, and i'm glad it's in an aspect of bikes, rather than something useless like home ecenomics of phys. ed :)

Monster Mike
07-20-2003, 05:16 AM
Fox will the 3.0s be out this fall?

spy tip:Brooklyn will have tires out that could be big competion....

FOX
07-20-2003, 06:36 PM
Originally posted by trail worker
hahahaha, and i'm not even worked up!
it just seems like it's been repeated all those times.
i've heard the same points over and over again and it's time to move on.
hell,in this post alone, i read the same points made by you, me and other's at least a dozen times....now(at least)...everyone is educated alot better than the school system, and i'm glad it's in an aspect of bikes, rather than something useless like home ecenomics of phys. ed :)

Dido.

It drives me a littel crazy how many times I get asked the same questions in different ways - when will it stop!!!!!!!!

I took home ec. (lots of girls in that class);)

FOX

FOX
07-20-2003, 06:38 PM
Originally posted by Monster Mike
Fox will the 3.0s be out this fall?

spy tip:Brooklyn will have tires out that could be big competion....

Nope - I woun't count on it.
I am not totally sure what Duro's plans are with the 3.0 version.
I am trying to get them to make a kick ass street tire as well.

Cool - I want to see the Brooks tire - pix? Those dudes make some sick shit!!!!!!!!!

FOX

stinkyman
07-20-2003, 07:10 PM
will we ever see a .243 dually? or are u strictly making the 4130?

Troy.

FOX
07-20-2003, 07:20 PM
Originally posted by stinkyman
will we ever see a .243 dually? or are u strictly making the 4130?

Troy.

Move this question to the following thread and I'll answer it.

http://bb.nsmb.com/newforum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=19950

FOX

Cheese
07-21-2003, 12:12 AM
Originally posted by FOX
Move this question to the following thread and I'll answer it.

http://bb.nsmb.com/newforum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=19950

FOX

:lol: wouldn't it take less time to say Yes / No rather than opening up a new browser and going to NSMB.com and clicking bullitan boards and clicking photo forum and clicking .243 leakage thread and copying the tag, then closeing the window, pasting it in here and saying post the question in the .243 leakage thread? :lol:

I'm curious too...so I guess ill do it your way and ask in the other thread. :P

Zaskar
07-21-2003, 01:01 AM
hmmm how different can bikes really be THAT much different from one another? how many ways can be the best? i'm pretty sure every "boutique" bike companies wish is to get the best bike out there. in hardtails how many designs can seriously work. theres gonna be some grey area. same deal with duallies. theres only so many linkage designs and their pros/cons stay the same no matter what colour you paint the frame. geometry tweaks sure. but then you can just say "how does 1 degree change make it a new design". tubing and stuff but i mean anyone can say anyone else copied them. its all relative. everything is just building blocks. we would never have the curnutt shocks if we didnt have fox rc's and wouldnt have RC's if we didnt have R's etc etc etc


i guess what im saying is that if people think there is not much difference in design between the higher end companies its because theres not. if it aint got a patent their gonna use it and even if there is chances are its nothing earth shatteringly different.

pike119
08-05-2003, 03:18 AM
those copy cating sons of bitchs:mad: can suck my left nut. to stupid to design there own or is that they are to dumb to make a good one of there own so they have to pretty much copy another bike and makle it barley legal i wouldent get one if they were free:mad: :mad:

4x4 style
08-05-2003, 05:39 AM
haha this thread started out as a guy with a new bike and now it's about .243 education:rolleyes:

|)uR0 .243
08-05-2003, 05:59 AM
god damnit, i could not turn my back to a .243 and i hate that gay kuwahara shit

Kyle the Hun
08-05-2003, 06:05 AM
Originally posted by pike119
those copy cating sons of bitchs:mad: can suck my left nut. to stupid to design there own or is that they are to dumb to make a good one of there own so they have to pretty much copy another bike and makle it barley legal i wouldent get one if they were free:mad: :mad:

OOMGOGMOGMO ROXOR N00B!
thos basterds who r 2 lazy 2 desine there own stufs
they 2 dum to desine stuf i bet u they cannt even spel eether!

/v\ark
08-05-2003, 10:40 AM
I would buy a .243 over a kuwawhateverthef#ck anyday.
Even if the bikes were identical......in everyway.

If you got a killer deal on an M1 would you buy it over the internet without trying it or ever having tried one for that matter? I would. Because Intense has a good name.

I put name, and everything that comes with it, at almost the same level as functionality and .243 destroys kuwahara even if the latter is $300 cheaper.

Ipecac
08-05-2003, 09:35 PM
Why I love my .243:

- it's a local company (and the sole proprietor, designer, head honcho is an OK guy to boot)
- it's pretty
- it's beefy as hell
- having bought the frame a couple of weeks before breaking my leg in Feb, it's all I could think about during my rehab and recovery
- having ridden it last weekend for the first time since my mishap, I re-affirm my love for my .243 (and biking in general) - climbs like a dream, descends like a scream.

Why I "dislike" my Kuwahara:

- I broke my f*cking leg while manualling my 1983 Factory Kuwahara BMX. Of course, this has nothing to do with the bike. But still, it ain't my favorite company or bike right now.

Spaztic
08-05-2003, 11:33 PM
How about some fuel for the fire....

.243's tire

Spaztic
08-05-2003, 11:35 PM
and gazzalodi's tire (developed a few years before)

you can't tell me that .243 was not 'influenced' by nokian.

trail worker
08-05-2003, 11:48 PM
Originally posted by Spaztic
and gazzalodi's tire (developed a few years before)

you can't tell me that .243 was not 'influenced' by nokian.


finally,someone noticed it too!
i run a 243 tire in the front,and sure,it's an awesome tire...but...they did sort of take a bit of design from NOKIAN,no denying that.if the nokian was available at my LBS,i probably woulda bought that one.but there were none in stock so i settled for the .243

t-town dirt jumper
08-05-2003, 11:48 PM
Originally posted by lowetyler
Mine was $350 after taxes, and with a seatpost.
I was looking for something cheap, because my ClifCat Tankass will be coming back from warrenty fairly quick, and if this frame works out, im keeping it and selling the Cat.

dude who ever sold u that frame made a fortune off of it. i got that frame a wile ago when mine broke and i had to send it in for warranty and i only payed $100 for my Kewie. u got jiped. big time.

FOX
08-06-2003, 12:05 AM
Originally posted by Spaztic
and gazzalodi's tire (developed a few years before)

you can't tell me that .243 was not 'influenced' by nokian.

OMFG.

Do we have do go though this one again.
I already said my favourite and most influencing tires were the high roller and Gazz.
Anyone with eye balls can put the duro/.243 tire side by side and see that, other than both having high side walls (.243 being smaller), they aren't even close.
I design the tread patterns and give my opinion on what the casing and durometer should be like and the rest is done by Duro.

I'll see if I can dig up specs of the two tires to put them together.

FOX

Zaskar
08-06-2003, 12:33 AM
Originally posted by t-town dirt jumper
dude who ever sold u that frame made a fortune off of it. i got that frame a wile ago when mine broke and i had to send it in for warranty and i only payed $100 for my Kewie. u got jiped. big time.

same hahaha
i got mine from Bike Co and it wsa the same.
300$ is an insane price.

Zaskar
08-06-2003, 12:36 AM
as for everyone whose bitchen bout copycat parts and saying how FOX has ripped people off. SHUT THE FCUK UP. stop talkin outta your ass. go take every catalgoue part off your bike and see how much you're left with. eric is here maken real shit. hes puttin heart in to it and just cuz i couldnt afford a .243 doesnt mean i dont respect him for it.

it's the raw heart that makes these frames what they are. while the whole /243 or nothing thing is a little over rated they are a good bike and good componentry that uses elements of bike design that WORK. you're not gettin shifty "i hope this works" crap.

i hate to say it but i'd much rather hear ppl bashen on brodie, azonic, perv, moonraker, oryx, etc all companies with copycat models or full lineups.

deal with it. and respect Eric's integrity as a leading force in local frame design.

IFO
08-06-2003, 01:16 AM
im pretty sure the "double-triangle" steel HT design was around before FOX built one...

its not exactly like a major break throu for mankind or anything....its a decent Steel HT...

no need to get all bent outa shape people....

Rosscofat
08-06-2003, 01:18 AM
so IFO hows the hands man? everything inside still intact?

IFO
08-06-2003, 01:20 AM
hahah.... i had bruises on my thumbs by my palms this morning ....

:mad:

u sir, ROK... rossco, i give u huge kudos for riding your HT/Jr-T at Whistler.... i'll never do that again...:P

Rosscofat
08-06-2003, 01:28 AM
lol... meh.. all in a days work.. I have perm damage to my palms and middle finger :( but its well worth it :D 1 day ill borrow my firends dare and show what speed really is, but as you can see my frame didnt stand up to what I gave it :( or my fork.. :(

Spaztic
08-06-2003, 02:01 AM
How do you feel about supporting a company that took one of my first production frames (that I worked my ass off on) over to china to be copied with a few changes to keep it legal (and cheap)?

I don't care - just curious.

FOX


You try to make some kid feel like shit for buying a frame and then get upset when I point out that you, like everyone else in the bicycle industry and pretty much every other industry, have based a product on an improved old design. Give the kid some slack, that's all.

FOX
08-06-2003, 02:18 AM
Originally posted by Spaztic
You try to make some kid feel like shit for buying a frame and then get upset when I point out that you, like everyone else in the bicycle industry and pretty much every other industry, have based a product on an improved old design. Give the kid some slack, that's all.

Dude.

Don't group me with any other corperate industry crap - it's a total insult.

The Duro tire is just that - a Duro product.

I don't take other companies products and ship them off to China to be coppied - I work my ass off on my designs.

FOX

:mad:

dudski
08-06-2003, 02:21 AM
and it payed of, i hopefully will be riding a 243 in the next week

Spaztic
08-06-2003, 02:59 AM
Dude.

Don't group me with any other corperate industry crap - it's a total insult.

The Duro tire is just that - a Duro product.

I don't take other companies products and ship them off to China to be coppied - I work my ass off on my designs.

FOX



Fair enough. I don't know you, nor do I know how you developed your product.

Check your PM's.

FOX
08-06-2003, 03:02 AM
Originally posted by Spaztic
Fair enough. I don't know you, nor do I know how you developed your product.

Check your PM's.

Got it.

Thanks.

Peace.

FOX

:)

Rosscofat
08-06-2003, 03:45 AM
I say a hardtail is a hardtail.. stell alu whatever its a bike.. that is ment to be riden.. only reason I didnt want a .243 is because EVERYONE HAD EM.. thats why I got a le toy 3 so Id have a bit of standing out status.. insted of a oh look another .243 :(

Neo
08-06-2003, 04:19 AM
cool bike

flowrider
08-06-2003, 06:23 AM
Anyone remember when Kuwhara was cool? And everyone wanted a Factory Kuwi? You younguns won't but I think Fox might!;)

oldschl81
08-06-2003, 01:49 PM
Originally posted by flowrider
Anyone remember when Kuwhara was cool? And everyone wanted a Factory Kuwi? You younguns won't but I think Fox might!;)

we talking old bmx kuwie's ?

if so :thepimp: :)

nicklouse
08-06-2003, 02:29 PM
:announce: copying happens some times intentionally and sometimes without being aware of it.
take the snipes 30.06 that was the ID Dr jekyll. the factory wanted to make some more money so it sold it to snipes without ID's approval.

in the end it lost the manufacture money as ID has taken the production of its new bikes somewhere else.

you will also find one companies product with another name in a diferent country. its called taking advantage of the lower cost of a big production run.

conversly if you want a bit of exclusivity it costs

nick

Rosscofat
08-06-2003, 05:02 PM
my friend has the kurhara diver

FOX
08-06-2003, 06:26 PM
Originally posted by nicklouse
:announce: copying happens some times intentionally and sometimes without being aware of it.
take the snipes 30.06 that was the ID Dr jekyll. the factory wanted to make some more money so it sold it to snipes without ID's approval.

in the end it lost the manufacture money as ID has taken the production of its new bikes somewhere else.

you will also find one companies product with another name in a diferent country. its called taking advantage of the lower cost of a big production run.

conversly if you want a bit of exclusivity it costs

nick

Good comments - I agree, and it happens way to often.

FOX

FOX
08-06-2003, 06:28 PM
Originally posted by flowrider
Anyone remember when Kuwhara was cool? And everyone wanted a Factory Kuwi? You younguns won't but I think Fox might!;)

Sure do - I had a fully cromed out Kuwi bmx - it was the shit back in the day.

FOX

FOX
08-06-2003, 06:32 PM
Originally posted by Rosscofat
I say a hardtail is a hardtail.. stell alu whatever its a bike.. that is ment to be riden.. only reason I didnt want a .243 is because EVERYONE HAD EM.. thats why I got a le toy 3 so Id have a bit of standing out status.. insted of a oh look another .243 :(

Really????

No one told me...

As far as I know there are about 50+ in BC and that is divided into 8 different models. So, about 7 of each. I am sure there are more riders around here than that?????

FOX

KOW49
08-07-2003, 02:42 AM
Originally posted by FOX
Really????

No one told me...

As far as I know there are about 50+ in BC and that is divided into 8 different models. So, about 7 of each. I am sure there are more riders around here than that?????

FOX

yeah theres alot more riders

maybe it would be good to give some different color frames?

Rosscofat
08-07-2003, 02:44 AM
ya I dont like to blend in... and my firend got one in ladner too. like ladner dude 4 bikers in all 1 has a park bike.. a 2003 dare the other one has a .243 with Mr T's mmm a banshee scream a 250 a torrent and rm7 and then me with me Le toy 3 :D

Zaskar
08-07-2003, 07:49 AM
Originally posted by Rosscofat
ya I dont like to blend in... and my firend got one in ladner too. like ladner dude 4 bikers in all 1 has a park bike.. a 2003 dare the other one has a .243 with Mr T's mmm a banshee scream a 250 a torrent and rm7 and then me with me Le toy 3 :D

hahahaha ladner.

you stink

IP FreeLee
08-07-2003, 10:26 PM
Ummm Eric from 243

Can you do a backflip? ;)

FOX
08-08-2003, 06:27 PM
Originally posted by IP FreeLee
Ummm Eric from 243

Can you do a backflip? ;)

On a bike?

MX or pedal?

Intentionally?

Is this white trash redneck VW Lee from the backwoods?

FOX