Building for a wider range of riders

[LostBoyScout]

I have a question, possibly a proposal, about trailbuilding techniques..

Now I'm an intermediate level rider. My technical skills are up to par with most expert level riders, but my lack of confidence and balls holds me down. I will admit, bigger drops frighten me. Any section of trail with above normal consequence scare me.

It seems to me, to make a trail fully rollable without taking away from the fun for the advanced riders is not too difficult. Just because there's a steep ladder down a drop doesnt mean you can't still huck it. A ladder across the top of a double doesn't mean you can't still hit it.

It also makes the trails a heck of a lot safer, especially to those not too familiar with them. And possibly most important of all.. It allows riders who don't have the guts or skill to ride these sections, to try them without the consequence of not having these safeguards..

Just something to remember when building your trails... I'm certainly NOT trying to suggest making trails easier, just try to build your stuff so people can not just ride them, but progress on them too. Isn't that what it's all about? We are all learning, at different levels..

[Ah-Choo]

Originally posted by LostBoyScout
I have a question, possibly a proposal, about trailbuilding techniques..

Now I'm an intermediate level rider. My technical skills are up to par with most expert level riders, but my lack of confidence and balls holds me down. I will admit, bigger drops frighten me. Any section of trail with above normal consequence scare me.

It seems to me, to make a trail fully rollable without taking away from the fun for the advanced riders is not too difficult. Just because there's a steep ladder down a drop doesnt mean you can't still huck it. A ladder across the top of a double doesn't mean you can't still hit it.

It also makes the trails a heck of a lot safer, especially to those not too familiar with them. And possibly most important of all.. It allows riders who don't have the guts or skill to ride these sections, to try them without the consequence of not having these safeguards..



Just something to remember when building your trails... I'm certainly NOT trying to suggest making trails easier, just try to build your stuff so people can not just ride them, but progress on them too. Isn't that what it's all about? We are all learning, at different levels..

MOst trails already have alternates, and in fact a few have well built challenging alternates as well. I think the problem is precisely the opposite at this time. I'm not sure of the root of the problem, but it seems that the truly challenging lines are rapidly disappearing on the North Shore. Every time I ride it seems, the line that you have to think ahead for (tight spaces, off camber turns, difficult roots or rocks) are being paved into mindless side walks. Whatever happened to learning. Have tyhe big bikes paved the way to paved trails?

[LostBoyScout]

I do agree the opposite happens too. Expert level trails should ONLY be worked on by expert level riders, for sure.

I guess it's more in dirtjump type situations that my post is more relevant. But also I find a lot of ladder sections only have a drop at the end and I think having a ladder down is better. Yeah I admit my post seemed like it doesn't happen and I agree that most do have such

[gimped]

Even those of us who can ride don't want to ride it all the time. Maybe its just me. (ie: LEAVE NED'S ALONE!!)

[Ah-Choo]

I think the philosophy that ALL trails are for ALL people is a slippery slope. The diving board drop is just that, a diving board. To expect builders of trails to adapt their vision to riders below the level of the trail only encourages them to hit trails above their ability level. In most cases what makes a trail double black is not necessarily the stunts or construction, but the terrain. To encourage riders of lesser ability to ride double black trails by dumbing down the stunts will only cause more problems. I'm with you on gaps, I don't believe in them, especially in inaccessable areas like we ride in. I feel that there should only be tables on the mountain, but many will disagree...

[LostBoyScout]

You're taking my points much more extreme that I meant them - I completely agree with what you say! I guess I just see a gap between easy and hard - there's not a lot of 1.5-3 foot drops, and especially not many fun ladder sections that DON'T have a big drop at the end n stuff

It might just be that my skills are lopsided too!

[Putty]

I'm building intermediate level stunts on Pangor. (There will be some sick sh*t as well, but it will all be optional)

[couch@nsmb.com]

Originally posted by Ah-Choo
MOst trails already have alternates, and in fact a few have well built challenging alternates as well. I think the problem is precisely the opposite at this time. I'm not sure of the root of the problem, but it seems that the truly challenging lines are rapidly disappearing on the North Shore. Every time I ride it seems, the line that you have to think ahead for (tight spaces, off camber turns, difficult roots or rocks) are being paved into mindless side walks. Whatever happened to learning. Have tyhe big bikes paved the way to paved trails?

I think you are just getting that much better ;)

[Broken Fusion!]

Originally posted by gimped
Even those of us who can ride don't want to ride it all the time. Maybe its just me. (ie: LEAVE NED'S ALONE!!)

I will relay a message from our good friend John, here is what he has to say:

Um, So you want me to leave logs with no rungs and not make safer routes around the tehcnical areas to help the not so good riders? I have been workin on important stuff, new down ramp to aid riders that were falling off it. I have seen 4 people fall off that steep downramp on the section I was workin on. I am helping to improve the trail, if you cannpt see that go eat shit asshole, I don't see you coming from coquitlam to work on the shores trails.
More will be fixed this weekend and then Iwill work on rock work and other ladder issues up top, want to make a sugestion why I should leave neds alone? Or do you want to shut the fuck up and be happy I maintain a trail for hundreds of riders a week.
In closing, Shut up, "Even those of us who can ride don't want to ride it all the time". Next time think before you say something. I'll be up there Sat and Sunday this weekend, come by and I'll be sure to give you more of my mind.

[ATN]

LostBoyScout has some really good points. I feel the same when I am riding. It's true that you in order to get BETTER you have to go BIGGER, but going bigger can mean injury, and that doesn't make you better. A trail should be forgiving for your first ride on it, but then you can ride in the next day/week and go bigger.

[Ah-Choo]

Originally posted by couch@nsmb.com
I think you are just getting that much better ;)

getting that much better???

[Ah-Choo]

While I applaud those who do any work at all, I still side with the guy who says leave Neds alone. Neds has always been a beginner trail, and should always be one. While John works diligently to build more ladders, the trail surface itself has eroded to the point that it is little more than a small canyon.

There is a serious shortage of beginner trails, and an even worse shortage of people willing to build and maintain them. Trails like Pangor and Neds have always been traditionally beginner trails, and I really think that they should remain that way. The problem is that nobody wants to be the one to do it. Every trail seems to need a signature move, and we've all gotten caught up in building stunts. When will it be cool just to shovel dirt?

I've gotten caught up in the new stunt parade, and am probably the worst offender...its like smoking, not good for you but you just can't stop...

anyone got a smoke?

[trail worker]

Originally posted by Ah-Choo
While I applaud those who do any work at all, I still side with the guy who says leave Neds alone. Neds has always been a beginner trail, and should always be one. While John works diligently to build more ladders, the trail surface itself has eroded to the point that it is little more than a small canyon.

There is a serious shortage of beginner trails, and an even worse shortage of people willing to build and maintain them. Trails like Pangor and Neds have always been traditionally beginner trails, and I really think that they should remain that way. The problem is that nobody wants to be the one to do it. Every trail seems to need a signature move, and we've all gotten caught up in building stunts. When will it be cool just to shovel dirt?

I've gotten caught up in the new stunt parade, and am probably the worst offender...its like smoking, not good for you but you just can't stop...

anyone got a smoke?

I talk to john on MSN quite a bit and he has in fact been doing some work,or is planning on doing some work on the trail such as rocking it and whatnot.



as for the original topic of this thread...i agree with you in full...I am not a big hucker,but instead prefer to roll smooth downramps.i hate coming to the end of a bridge just to be faced with a drop that i cant do.Sure,say what you want:..."get better and do the bigger hucks", but i just dont see why we cant just throw a little downramp in there to smooth things out for everyone.
I agree with a-choo...there are alot of alternate lines that are being made that are challenging,but i like to be able to ride a bif peice of sky-bridge then roll a nice downramp off of it,not just have to stick to the traill and skip the bridge because i cant ride the last 1 foot of it!
Also,i really think that youre point of people getting caught up in building only stunts is really a valid one...it DOES seem that way.

[ATN]

If anyone has ridden Flywheel on Burke Mountain you can see what happens when people just build bridges to solve problems, but the bridges are crappy and the trail is eroded and full of puddles. I want to fix that..

[JSinclair]

I think you have lost the point. John is fixing all the stuff that needs repair. He is not building "Pildriver" type drops everywhere...
The work that John has done on Ned's was MUCH NEEDED. He fixed the ladder going down the Logride so BEGINNERS wouldn't eat it going down and breaking rungs (Which happened to my friend).
Neds Is still a beginner trail. I enjoy honing my skills on it. There is nothing on the trail that is dificult to the point that you would injure yourself largely trying it.
John on the other hand has made the Ramps (For the easy ride arounds) safer and more accessible to the beginner riders. He is also fixing the stuff that is worn for the more advanced riders (ie Trannies and Bridges) Not once has he said anything about building expert only stunts.
I agree that neds is getting beat, but that trail sees more volume than most combined. The trail is still hella fun and more than an easy ride... Lighten up, if you don't want Neds touched, then maybe you should take over fixing it. John went out of his way to fix up a trail that was getting beat, and one that hundreds of riders enjoy weekly. The LEAST you could do would be to apprecitate that fact and give him props. If you want to make suggestions for building be POLITE and helpfull.

I for one applaud John for all his hard work and will be stopping on the weekend to give him a hand and share some Bubba with him.

[JSinclair]

From John :

I am not out to build new stunts are add any new hucks to neds, I realise its a beginners trail and I firstly fixed the dangerous ladders then made the original beginner route easier as it should be, I am only workin on fixing one corner than fixing the rest of the main line, E.I. the downramp beside the drop i am workin on. An original line that has gotten worked in the past years.

Neds is hard to fix because most of the ground is rockbed and where it is not it has worn down 3 feet, liek the corner before the section i am working on currently. I can not od much but rock work pete style which will take a serious amount of time that I dont have going ot school and commuting to the trailhead.

I will continue to work ont he section I am now but after that Switch has plans for some rock work in areas and I will continue on the original line at that time too. I am working my way from the bottom on Neds and will address any serious issues first. Not much of neds needs work, only some bad erosiona nd shotty ramps, or ones that are breaking down.

[Sharon]

Ah-choo, what is it? We need more challenging lines? Or we need more beginner trails?

If someone wants to do some work on a trail GREAT! If he wants to build stunts, it will only be a matter of time before he realizes that there is more to trail building than just building stunts, and he will start working on the ground. Let people learn, just like you had too.

John, good work. We'll be on C-buster on Saturday. Chris, good work too! Pangor WAS an easier trail until it became an eroded POS that is now getting some attention.

Neds used to be an easy trail until it started to get >100 people a day riding down it on weekends, and probably the same mid week on a descent day.

It is a bit of a double edge sword when working on a trail. To make it able to withstand traffic, it has to be roman road.

Remember 7th 2 years ago!

Originally posted by Ah-Choo


MOst trails already have alternates, and in fact a few have well built challenging alternates as well.

I think the problem is precisely the opposite at this time. I'm not sure of the root of the problem, but it seems that the truly challenging lines are rapidly disappearing on the North Shore.

Every time I ride it seems, the line that you have to think ahead for (tight spaces, off camber turns, difficult roots or rocks) are being paved into mindless side walks. Whatever happened to learning. Have tyhe big bikes paved the way to paved trails?

There is a serious shortage of beginner trails, and an even worse shortage of people willing to build and maintain them.

Trails like Pangor and Neds have always been traditionally beginner trails, and I really think that they should remain that way. The problem is that nobody wants to be the one to do it. Every trail seems to need a signature move, and we've all gotten caught up in building stunts. When will it be cool just to shovel dirt?

[Ned]

Originally posted by JSinclair
From John :

I am not out to build new stunts are add any new hucks to neds...

I saw him working the log ladder the other Friday while on the first leg of our Triple Crown ride. I was happy to see him out there working on it but didn't stop to talk as business is business when it comes to ride time.

[ATN]

What about building different lines... it's kinda like a new trail.. but not really. You can have anvanced stuff one way and easier stuff the other. Would that interfere with the nsmba no-new-trails agreement? it could solve the problem...

I am not building on the shore though, jsut to let you know. ;)

[trail worker]

Originally posted by burkebuilder
What about building different lines... it's kinda like a new trail.. but not really. You can have anvanced stuff one way and easier stuff the other. Would that interfere with the nsmba no-new-trails agreement? it could solve the problem...


I must be confused...i thought that this was already allowed?This seems like a very good solution to the problem of not being able to cut any new trails...have they ever set any reguations about how much you can to an existing trail?
my point is simply that you could add so much to a trail if you wanted to....Oh the possibilities!

[Putty]

Originally posted by trail worker
I must be confused...i thought that this was already allowed?This seems like a very good solution to the problem of not being able to cut any new trails...have they ever set any reguations about how much you can to an existing trail?
my point is simply that you could add so much to a trail if you wanted to....Oh the possibilities!

That's a good point. How much would you be allowed to add to an already existing trail?

I know that one issue with trails is widening, and builders take time to reduce this as much as possible, as well as fix (put back dirt) and close the widened parts of trails. But widening is, for the most part unintentional, as people go around stuff that is too big for them.

A good example of this was the bottom of Pangor, where you can ride or air a skinny near the begining of Slash. Until Dwicks put a beauty of a cradle for people who want to opt out, the area was getting horribly eroded on a daily basis.

I have been told that excessive widening is something that can result in a trail being shut down.

But actually adding to a trail is a different matter. If the adddition does not lead to moreerosion is it OK to do?

Sharon, you probably know about this? I am not just asking about Pangor, but about trails in general.

[bullit_kid]

John is good shit so lay off of him, all his work is done by hand, no chain saw or nothing, reusing already used nails. Lifintin huge boulders from hundreds off feet away

MaCHINE

[ATN]

Originally posted by putty
That's a good point. How much would you be allowed to add to an already existing trail?

I have been told that excessive widening is something that can result in a trail being shut down.

But actually adding to a trail is a different matter. If the adddition does not lead to moreerosion is it OK to do?

Sharon, you probably know about this? I am not just asking about Pangor, but about trails in general.

Ther one thing I've seen on Burke is on Red R. The original trail goes in a switchback, while the new line cuts right down. That makes it steeper for more advanced people.

IMO adding new lines to save a trail is acceptable as long as they are well built. The no-new-trails thing is to stop idiots from creating a lot of crappy trails all over the mountain while not mantainign anything. Something that makes the mountain safer, more accesssable and more fun without totally screwing up the ecosystem is ok in my books.

[Sharon]

You have to use your best judgement.

If a stunt or section is built that is too challenging for some to ride, a ride around WILL occur. It's best for the builder to realize that and build a ride around that will hold up to traffic.


If we use Upper Oilcan as an example. Pete has done an incredible job of creating an easier option to all of his challenging lines without compromising the trail at all. He didn't really ADD to the trail, since his challenging sections were all natural stunts off the trail that he incorporated into the trail.

A bad example is the bottom of Espresso before we fixed up a rideable line. There were about three lines you could choose if you didn't want to ride down the steep section ( about half way down before it gets really steep) the steep section still exists, and a newer rocked line is the easier option.

Make it look good, and build it to last.

Personally I think the trail should be as narrow as possible. Too many options that will increase braiding is undesirable since all the braids will have to be fixed or decommissioned eventually.

The exit Dave built just before slash is very nice. Totally fit in with the trail and made that section look better! That is afterall, the most important thing, right :)

Originally posted by putty

But actually adding to a trail is a different matter. If the adddition does not lead to moreerosion is it OK to do?

Sharon, you probably know about this? I am not just asking about Pangor, but about trails in general.

[Darryl]

Going back to the original post
I understand what he is saying to a point. We where all beginners at one point and we have all been frustrated by a stunt thats too big. But we have suffered through that and eventually got to the point of being able to ride that section or stunt.

It wasn't until I started going up to eagle and putting many full days of work in to a section that takes 2 seconds to ride. that I have respected all the work put in by all the other builders. and they are the ones putting in all those hours digging and carrying heavy rocks. and because of that builders have the choice as to what they want for the trail. If you want to contribute you can add your ideas if you come out on trail days, or even maybe bump into one of us on the trail. we aren't stubborn and will listen to someone elses opinon. if it's reasonable.

[Tool]

On this new trail that i am building at the watershed, i'm keeping in mind the riders that wanna ride a stunt, but don't wanna have to huck after, so i've given the option by having a moderate size huck on the end or a nice steep roll down to the side. People are gonna ride it anyways and it also means that they don't stop near the end, jump off to the side, trample a few bushes just to avoid the huck. That's one of the things that i've noticed about building stunts, that people will just find their own way around things if they can't do them. I don't know how many times i've tried blocking off spots that people end up walking or riding around stunts. One of my peeves is that if a person can't ride a skinny but wants to get to the otherside, that they decide to walk to the side and trample everthing in site and even move stuff that's been put there to keep these people from doing this when it's easier and better for the trail to walk along the skinny. But what can you do, that's why i guess you have to keep everybody in mind.

It's good to caiter to people trying to improve and progress. But there should still be some trails that people shouldn't ride if they're not ready for it.

[gimped]

I want to start making Ned's way more technical. I would like to add more rock lines on top of rock lines to slow it down a bit. I wouldn't call it a beginner trail exactly, because it can be tough when going at high speed. More stuff like the root gap and the big rocks with gnarly step-down gaps. Who's with me?

[gimped]

To broken fusion & John:

My point is not to build stunts on Ned's period! If you have rungs out then fix the rungs idiot! Can we have one trail here that doesn't resemble an ewok village? Enough with the log rides!!! Anybody who builds stuff like that on a sweet trail like Ned's is a dork, no matter who they are or how much time they put in.

[Reggaeman]

Gimped: Neds is a combination of a DH training run and a beginners trail. Slow it down abit? Why? Whats the fun in making it more technical? Is it to slow people down b/c I know most of the people i ride with will find a way to gap over whatever you build. And why not build more little stunts on Neds? As long as the original trail is there and there is an easier way around it I say go nutz and build more skinny lines and drops! But you want to not build any skinny lines but still build drops and other features like that? I don't get it. Who cares build what you want just make sure its good! And make sure there are ways around it!

[Ned]

Hmmmm... I'd be pretty disappointed to drop in for a ride in the old digs only to find more lumber, moved dirt and the like. You can pass it off as progression but I don't buy into it even if I'm not paying my mortgage in that part of the world. Sorry.

[gimped]

Listen Jamie, How many trails are there on the shore that doesn't have some sort of man-made wooden structure on it? Not many. How many trails are as fast as Ned's? None. I'm talking about making it more gnarled for better dh training (like WC). Ned's is a classic that I think should be left natural. If you are to build on it, build natural. I'm surprised to hear that from a fellow dh'er.

[Ned]

Gimped, a little OT but... if you dig on 'Bin Over-ridden line I can turn you on to some hour+ descents of curly, bermed, brake bumped, whooptied, switchbacked ribbons that are absolutely devoid of riders, shuttlers and ski pole toting hikers.

Something about leaving a pack of moto's sucking your dust will change your whole outlook on riding... or is it the 4-5000ft descents? :D

[Sharon]

Have you ridden Cypress lately? No stunts there, lots of fall line fast trails.
Sex Boy
Coiler

Perfect for DH training runs, they're already braided and eroded! AND there are no parking issues, yet.

Originally posted by gimped
Listen Jamie, How many trails are there on the shore that doesn't have some sort of man-made wooden structure on it? Not many. How many trails are as fast as Ned's? None. I'm talking about making it more gnarled for better dh training (like WC). Ned's is a classic that I think should be left natural. If you are to build on it, build natural. I'm surprised to hear that from a fellow dh'er.

[gimped]

Cypress is my fav by far for that reason.

Ned I'm there!

[Biking Fiend]

Originally posted by gimped
I want to start making Ned's way more technical. I would like to add more rock lines on top of rock lines to slow it down a bit. I wouldn't call it a beginner trail exactly, because it can be tough when going at high speed. More stuff like the root gap and the big rocks with gnarly step-down gaps. Who's with me?

*from john*

I am not building stunts, Thank You. All I have done so far is fixed shotty work from other builders that were only concerned with building shit ramps and dumb drops. I am only there to preserve the original line. If you modify the original line I will hurt you, do not touch the trail. It is fine; all it needs is basic maintenance. I am sure people would like to leave is as a somewhat technical beginners trail. If it's not technical enough for young o somewhere else or ride faster. If you slow it down (which you can't because like Jamie said we'll just gap over the stuff like we do now.), it will become a stupid trail. It was also make it harder for the beginners, don't forget we all share the trails. Neds is and always will be a beginner style trail, were not going to change it to a WC trail because YOU want too. There are more people than you out there fool. Want to train for DH go ride bear or something else. All I plan to do is fix some dangerous lines and fill in rock and dirt where needed. No more of this building huge stunts, I don't do that on he shore because it's an eye sore and land managers aren't to keen on that high up stuff that breaks necks.

[Ah-Choo]

My question is when did neds go from being a beginner trail to a downhill training run? I think people need to be slowed on Neds, not necessarily with big stunts, but with ground level stuff that can be learned on and is fun for an expert rider looking to downsize his or her ride, and with old fasioned tight corners and nose first drops that require the skills necessary to progress to the next level safely...and I'm not crapping on the work, some-one was good enough to make crappy trails ridable again...just putting in my two cents, and I'm sure that I'm not the first who said you shoulda...I got it all summer...

[Sharon]

Neds stopped being a beginner trail when its level of erosion got to this current point of disaster.

The combined effect of riders and water running down the trail has made the drops bigger and rocky areas more rocky!

The best thing to do for that trail would be drainage to stop the water erosion. The lower bridges were built over really eroded areas, really because the people were too lazy or didn't know how to do the rock work.

I remember riding that trail on the Slayer (5X5, 2.5inch tires, flat pedals), then riding the XC HT down it (3 inch X-Fly, clipped in, 2.1 FireXC Pros). HOLY CRAP! Was that trail more difficult on the HT! It didn't used to be!

[gimped]

Whoa John!! Get off the high-horse man! You are obviously a young & brave little POS so watch it son. Please don't threaten anyone because you do not know who you can get on the other side. You are fixing up existing stuff, you're my hero, have a cookie!

Anyway...Gaps and filling in sections with dirt and rock lines is exactly what I am promoting.

Ned's has been a beginner/intermediate/pro-level trail forever. It's how fast/slow you can ride it. Adding more technicality is not nessicarily (sp) going to make it harder. I'm talking about harder at speed, but still somewhat easy going slow.

[bullit_kid]

Originally posted by gimped
Whoa John!! Get off the high-horse man! You are obviously a young & brave little POS so watch it son. Please don't threaten anyone because you do not know who you can get on the other side. You are fixing up existing stuff, you're my hero, have a cookie!

From John:

"It's assholesd like you that ruin this sport only thinking about yourself. I would advise you to leave me alone as you have no clue who I am or what I can do to you. Don't fuck with smarter people guy. I'll be the merry guy I am and keep workin on neds for people who have respect, not for assholes like yourself. Hope to never meet you in my life. I'm done with this thread, for anyone that wants ot help. I'll be up there on Saturday and sunday from 7-5 all day "

From john himself

reminder he is pretty buff

[LostBoyScout]

Wow, I forgot about this thread and it took off!

There is a whole other point now that is starting to surface, and sadly it's at least partially true: All the trails on the shore (and surrounding mountains) are becoming more and more alike. I have to say I DO reaaaally enjoy our trails (in fact I plan to live in BC for a long, long time, largely due to our world famous trails) - if you want to go for a smooth, flowing, faster trail.. well, um, you better get more suspension. We don't have much here for that, all our trails are a bunch of stunts with steep, rooty, tight trail between them.

But then again, that's the card nature has dealt us with the terrain - and the builders do a great job of building what the terrain allows (and the drainage systems are very impressive).

We all have different views on what our idea of the perfect trail is. Best thing we can do is take a look at each trail and decide first what will work best in terms of working with the terrain, and then compare with other trails so you can have as much variety in both terrain and difficulty. I personally like a good variety myself, I'd be up for a tech trail followed by something smoother and flowier, etc.

And thanks to those two supported and considered my ideas. I wouldn't want to make anything less boring or difficult to the experts (after all.. difficulty is what makes the shore famous), but intermediate riders like myself enjoy the stunts but oftentimes have to skip them because of a drop or whatnot.

Maybe it already exists, but here's a trail I'd LOVE to see: A balance line trail, but the stunts staying under 4 feet off the ground. (Maybe some optional side lines going higher). Drops ok, but small ones. Lots and lots of skinny stuff, pretty low to the ground. Berms and flowy stuff in between as well. Maybe several different lines on some balance sections, to add a little more dynamics to the trail.

I'm not sure why as the stunts get narrower, they have to get higher!

[Sharon]

Gimped, John. Chill.

John that kind of reply is why you are not allowed to post here anymore.

Lostboyscout, have you ridden Upper Oilcan or Bitches Brew?

Neds needs work, if someone is going to take on that task, then respect his decision about the work that needs to be done. Gimped it sounds like you have the same vision as John, why don't you go help him out?

[switch]

First, a note on Ned's.

I helped out John one day a couple weekends ago, and I will be helping him some more. The very bottom of Ned's, the last few hundred metres, is essentially a bunch of ladders. Only a couple small sections of these ladders have rungs that are in good condition, and safely nailed down.

The rest of the wood work has a lot of missing rungs (people have even posted this up on the trail conditions forum), rungs that have rotted and broke, and rungs that will not last another season. There's probably 150 to 200 rungs like this. Also, there are nails sticking up where the rungs have broken off.

What John started, and I've tried to help with, is to start at the top of this section, and replace all the rungs with new ones. The first part, where the ladder-on-log crosses back accross the trail, had a ladder section on the left that would lean heavily under weight, and was soon to break. John propped that up right away; it will be made much stronger. The small up-and-over ladder on the log that crosses the trail had rotted and was missing rungs. The intersection with the main ladder was a dangerous hole where a wheel could easily get caught in. The drop-off ladder that was not only very steep, but rotting. We replaced the rungs on the intersection, and replaced the steep drop-off ladder with a new one that is less steep. Why less steep? Because I've personally seen a half dozen endos on that thing, and I've seen people slip off as they try to walk their bike over.

The two ladder drops at the bottom are in good shape, and can be left as is. They go to the side of the trail, and are used a lot (Ned's, being a very wide trail, can support this configuration with ease). The rolling ladder, just below the section John started on, is in bad shape; missing runs, very sketchy to walk on, etc. It will be repaired. There's a gap jump to the right that seems to be in good shape. The ladder bridges on the "exit-stage-left" path are in good shape, and are needed there because of the amount of water that pools up (which cannot be drained).

After fixing what is dangerous, without adding any new kind of stunts, John and I have talked about rocking in some of the rolls up the trail, and putting in drainage where there are ponds of water, or where there is just too much erosion occuring. Also, some of the upper structures, such as the first a-frame, will be repaired (it already has a big gap in it because rungs have broken off).

I see no problems with what John (or I) have done, or plan to do. It's all to do with making the trail safer and more durable. In other words, it's been trail maintenance. That's what the NSMBA has committed to, and we want to see the trails kept open and the opportunity for new trails in the future.

As for what Ned's is: Ned's is a trail that is shuttled hard. Especially in the winter, when it's arguably the best trail to ride in terms of condition. It's a trail that a good novice to intermediate rider can enjoy, and it's also a trail that experienced and pro DH racers enjoy. You can ride it slow, or rip it up, and safely too, because of it's width and excellent visibility. It is a trail for almost all riders because of these things, and I very much doubt that will change.

I cannot speak for John, but if I wanted to modify the trail at all, I would not do so without consulting some people like PD or Jeremy or other NSMBA trail coordinators. I personally feel that the trail ownership issue can be taken too far. A concerted effort by the group makes more sense, and not using the experience of some of the NSMBA's trailbuilders, with regards to the best way to drain, rock, flow, lay down a stunt, etc., would be, well, dumb. Plus, no none has a patent on good ideas.

As for the topic of the thread.

A colleague of mine, at work, overheard myself and another colleague talking about mountain biking. He wanted to get into it, so he bought a nice hardtail. Rode for a while, getting used to the bike. Then, one weekend, he wanted to ride on one of the mountains. A bike shop person told him to do Pipeline ("easiest trail on Fromme"). My colleague showed up for work on Monday with bruises all over his body. It's not an easy trail. If you think about it, there aren't any "easy" trails on the three mountains. I've since told him to ride Bridal Path (our one pseudo XC type trail) to get used to the roots and rocks.

But I'd like to talk about Seymour, as I know it very well.

Most of the trails require maintenance in that they need existing structures fixed, and they need rock/drainage work done. Take Pangor. When it's dry, it's a sweet trail. When wet, it's a trail that's half submerged. Dave has done some great work on the lower section. Chris has fixed up some structures at the top - that new long ladder/log ride is excellent. And they've only just started. Rock work and drainage is very demanding and time consuming. But I think that a year from now Pangor will be a much better trail than it was at the start of this season. And look at CBC - riders are raving about it, yet there's still drainage/rock work to be done. Same with Boogieman. I road Leopard for the first time this summer, and was in awe of the rock work. Solid building, and in the right places. Great trail that the novice and experienced riders can both enjoy. That's what a lot of the trails should be like. Sure, Boogieman being an expert trail makes sense - but without other trail options, such as Severed, C-Buster, or Pangor, it's going to get hit by novice riders. So, the options are to provide good trails for novice and itermedidate riders, or to make all trails rideable for novice/intermediate riders. The former is preferable, and hopefully it will work out that way so that you don't get experienced riders barreling down the run into novice riders.

One thing I'd like to see on Seymour is a stunt area. A small area that has some skinnies, various heights of ladder drops (2ft, 3ft, 4ft, 5ft), a couple teeeter-totters, small gap jump, etc. Riders want to practise these type of stunts to improve their skills for the trails. Without having a "play" area, they'll do it in the middle of a trail. Better to have people off in an area that is safer, and hopefully, easier to maintain.

Anyways, that's my 6 cents worth.

[Tool]

Those are some really good points Switch, but i have a couple things to add, firstly: for beginners, a couple good places to go to get comfortable with skill developement would be places like UBC, Burnaby mtn, Stokes Pitt or the Delta Watershed. These are good areas that offers beginners a wide range of trails that will help bring their skills up before they decide to venture up to the shore.

Secondly, a really good beginner ride on the shore is Leopord Trail to Krikim Krankim to whatever the next trail is called, that's where i would take a newby

[switch]

Originally posted by Tool
Those are some really good points Switch, but i have a couple things to add, firstly: for beginners, a couple good places to go to get comfortable with skill developement would be places like UBC, Burnaby mtn, Stokes Pitt or the Delta Watershed. These are good areas that offers beginners a wide range of trails that will help bring their skills up before they decide to venture up to the shore.

Secondly, a really good beginner ride on the shore is Leopord Trail to Krikim Krankim to whatever the next trail is called, that's where i would take a newby

Good suggestions. Another friend who started riding this year lives on the west side, and he's been riding at UBC a lot. I've not been to the Delta watershed, but would like to some time and see what it is like. Same with Burnaby Mtn. But I don't know where Stokes Pitt is. Since I live at the bottom of Seymour, that's where I mostly ride.

I've done the Leopard->Crinkum->Kirkford->Griffin a few times, and really like it. Flows really well, and yes, if anyone asked about an easy trail on Fromme, that's where I'd point them.

[trail worker]

wow,seems to be a pretty heated up debate here....
i have never ridden on seymore,so my opinion probably isnt worth two shits but i'll try to throw my view on things in here.
I talk to John quite a bit and it seems as if he is doing some really great things for Ned's...he has never mentioned to me that he wanted to build "bigger" stuff or anything,merely that he wanted to restore the trail.I think that he is doing great things considering he comes from PoCo almost every weekend to come work on a trail on the North Shore.A while back it seemed as if everybody was bitching about no-one doing work on trails and no one restoring old trails...now John come along and does some really great work(with the approval of NSMBA to boot) and you guys just flame him..it makes no sense whatesoever to me.
In my opinion, no matter how small the amount of work done to a trail is, the people who worked on it should still be given mad props. It's hard to come across people who are willing to do work for free, so i think you should appreciate the effort done by John and Switch and all the others who come out to trail days.
And im sure if you still have a problem with him, John would be more than willing to discuss it with you on saturday or sunday when he is up working...keeping in mind he is 6'4" and 240 pounds:lol:

[Ah-Choo]

The funny part is that I don't see anyone flaming John...I see John over reacting and getting quite upset about posts that merely suggest that a few people (I would argue more than a few) would like to see beginner trails remain just that, beginner trails for the reasons that Switch so ably reccomends in his posts. Anyone that has seen the parking nightmare at the bottom of riverside can attest to the fact that trails for experts, intermediates and begginners just wont work. The homeowners on Riverside will put a stop to that I guarantee you, just as the home owners on Mountain Highway have.

Keeping beginner trails beginner only serves to keep traffic down, while making a trail all things for all people will only serve to ensure that all people will ride it resulting in higher traffic, increased necessity for maintenance and increased headache for those surrounding the exits to these trails. It is important to note that at over time Neds has become a multi use trail. Trail runners, hikers and the like are regularly on the trail and their safety must be taken into account. Much of the concerns regarding the environmental impacts of this trail have been noted by these user groups.

As for downhilling on neds, I would argue (some what in chicken and egg fashion) that the downhilling is the cause of the massive erosion on neds, not the other way around. Increased pace+increased use=increased erosion.

Note to John:

The "You should have done so and so" comment is one that trail builders hear on a regular basis. Don't take it personally. Take the input weigh it against your better judgement and do what you feel is best. Often times I have dismissed some-ones ideas only to find later that their idea was precisely the right solution to the problem at hand. Enjoy your trail building experience for what it is, a contribution to the community, and relish in the fact that without a community so attatched to their "turf" there wouldn't a "North Shore"...

[Putty]

Originally posted by switch
First, a note on Ned's.
One thing I'd like to see on Seymour is a stunt area. A small area that has some skinnies, various heights of ladder drops (2ft, 3ft, 4ft, 5ft), a couple teeeter-totters, small gap jump, etc. Riders want to practise these type of stunts to improve their skills for the trails. Without having a "play" area, they'll do it in the middle of a trail. Better to have people off in an area that is safer, and hopefully, easier to maintain.


I was thinking about the same thing. There are a couple places I can think of that would be good. We should do it.

[Ah-Choo]

Originally posted by putty
I was thinking about the same thing. There are a couple places I can think of that would be good. We should do it.

Actually, if I'm not mistaken Dirt Club (Hoots Jay etc.) are working with the district to make just such a thing happen in urban settings. Perhaps contacting Jay about the Myrtle Park site and offering some help there might be what the doctor (Doctor Jay that is...badump-bump) ordered...

[gimped]

I think John has some hidden issues. Why would anyone get so angry over a trail? I'm detecting f.a.s. Does anyone remember the story of the guy who I schooled in Whistler because he mouthed off to some beginners, telling them to stay off the mountain? I think I've found him!

Oh well, for those of you who actually understood what I said, thanks! I think building log rides on every trail is not nessicary (sp?), and I don't mean trail maintenance.

Thanks for enlightenment shitface.

[Ah-Choo]

Gimped...uncalled for, unintelligent and unneccessary...

[gimped]

Com'on it was funny. Seriously, I'm sorry and I will stop.

[KamaKazi]

Originally posted by gimped
I think John has some hidden issues. Why would anyone get so angry over a trail? I'm detecting f.a.s. Does anyone remember the story of the guy who I schooled in Whistler because he mouthed off to some beginners, telling them to stay off the mountain? I think I've found him!

Oh well, for those of you who actually understood what I said, thanks! I think building log rides on every trail is not nessicary (sp?), and I don't mean trail maintenance.

Thanks for enlightenment shitface.

John asked me to post this for him

You are right I have hidden issues but that doesn't concern you, Trail work is one of the reason's I'm still sane, That and hunting/fishing. Example, today I pushed someone out of my way in school, when he asked why I pushed him I broke his nose. He got what he asked for. Maybe I am so protective over the trail because I have seen it decline from a sweet little dh rip to a shit run in 3 years.

I didn't like the way that happened. Now I am trying to slow that process. Oh and yes I scream and yell at noobs in whistler, but it's funny cause I know I can tool you now questions asked. Only person who can beat me is Bighitter on the board. Your original post caught me on an edge when you said leave neds alone as it needs desperate help, sorry if I overreacted, but you want to change the trail I just want to maintain it

Whate evr happened happened and now I don't care. I will continue to work on neds without complaint because I love the trail and the sport and want to see it around to show my kids(if I have any..).

Merry Christmas, Cya in Whsitler next year

[trail worker]

Originally posted by gimped
I think John has some hidden issues. Why would anyone get so angry over a trail? I'm detecting f.a.s. Does anyone remember the story of the guy who I schooled in Whistler because he mouthed off to some beginners, telling them to stay off the mountain? I think I've found him!

one of the reasons he got so angy over the trail is the same reason i would be feeling if ppl where saying the same to me....he is passionate about trail building(you just need to talk to him about it for 5 minutes to understand this), and he feels like he isnt being given a chance to do some much needed work, and when he is doing work, people just arent giving him the appreciation he deserves.
anyways i think this thread got way out of hand....just my .02 cents

[gimped]

Words can't even explain that one. Why bother even responding? Where do I start? I'll be the bigger MAN and not even do it because I don't have to challenge people to prove myself. Unless your name is Shandro or Watson, ...anyway you get the point.

Darwin was right. Anyone agree?

[LeeLau]

Originally posted by gimped
Words can't even explain that one. Why bother even responding? Where do I start? I'll be the bigger MAN and not even do it because I don't have to challenge people to prove myself. Unless your name is Shandro or Watson, ...anyway you get the point.

Darwin was right. Anyone agree?

I don't get it. You and John basically agree on what should be done to the trail. You don't seem to like the way he's telling the message.

He's doing the work on the trail. IMO if he's doing the work he can do it however he wants.

Even the buddy of mine who built those crapass ramps on Neds which John is now repairing was doing work on the trail. I didn't think it was the greatest quality but GOD FORBID that someone actually do some work that not everyone likes!

If you don't like the work that either John or any trailworker is doing on the trail then perhaps you should be doing the work yourself.

You're offering input in a pretty abrasive manner. I don't recall that you've said that you'll lift a shovel. If you get a reaction like you just got why should you be surprised?

I don't even know you but you're sure coming off like yet another one of the countless spoiled downhill racers wannabes

[switch]

Originally posted by putty
I was thinking about the same thing. There are a couple places I can think of that would be good. We should do it.

I'm in, but not right now. Maybe this spring. And, as Ah-Cho points out later, Jay did ask for assistance in building some stunts during the NSMBA AGM. I didn't catch where he wanted it done - I am assuming it was at Myrtle. In any case, I'd be up for that too. Good to have a safer place to practice biking skills before hitting the trails.

[trail worker]

Originally posted by LeeLau
I don't get it. You and John basically agree on what should be done to the trail. You don't seem to like the way he's telling the message.
He's doing the work on the trail. IMO if he's doing the work he can do it however he wants.
If you don't like the work that either John or any trailworker is doing on the trail then perhaps you should be doing the work yourself.
You're offering input in a pretty abrasive manner. I don't recall that you've said that you'll lift a shovel. If you get a reaction like you just got why should you be surprised?
I don't even know you but you're sure coming off like yet another one of the countless spoiled downhill racers wannabes
you just stole the exact words from my lips....i hate it when that happens!

[switch]

Originally posted by LeeLau [B]
Even the buddy of mine who built those crapass ramps on Neds which John is now repairing was doing work on the trail. I didn't think it was the greatest quality but GOD FORBID that someone actually do some work that not everyone likes!

Lee, the ramps weren't/aren't crappy. The wood is rotting and needs replacement. Personally, I think they're nice lines and that the original work must have taken a large amount of effort. Same goes for a lot of the stunts on Seymour. That's why it's so great that guys like Jeremy, Jim (PD), Chris, Dave, you, Sharon, etc. are making the effort to put the maintenance in. :)

[LostBoyScout]

I sure did a good job of opening up a can o worms :D

And as for a question directed at me on the 3rd page - yes I've ridden Upper Oilcan, and I know exactly why you ask me and yes I agree - the rock sections etc are very flowing, pretty smooth, and FUN. Don't get me wrong I freakin LOVE every trail on the shore. I haven't left there without a shit eating grin yet!

I'm just stirring the pot (more effectively than planned) so we can discuss the finer things, much like we are doing.. cept the flaming isn't necessary.. I guess people get very defensive over stuff they've spent so much time and effort on though, and I can appreciate that.

But my main point was and still is, that I have a lot of friends who are not extreme mountain bikers whatsoever, but they do love riding 'stunts'.. and while there's easy ones and hard ones both, I think we can make the easy ones a lot more fun :) And the bridge between easy and hard is often quite large - there's not so much medium stuff! Well unless you consider 5-6 footers medium.. which it is to a hucker but to an aggro XC rider, 2-3 feet is medium.

PS: SFU has some good novice to intermediate trails too, like Nicoles - for whoever it was talking about his coworker.

[LeeLau]

Originally posted by trail worker
you just stole the exact words from my lips....i hate it when that happens!

Sunshine Coast, Seymour; its all the same - you can't please everyone so might as well go ahead and do your own thing.

[LeeLau]

Originally posted by switch
Lee, the ramps weren't/aren't crappy. The wood is rotting and needs replacement. Personally, I think they're nice lines and that the original work must have taken a large amount of effort. Same goes for a lot of the stunts on Seymour. That's why it's so great that guys like Jeremy, Jim (PD), Chris, Dave, you, Sharon, etc. are making the effort to put the maintenance in. :)

Well, like I said I know the guy who did them and he blew out his shoulder and slapped the stuff together. The actual supports - tresses - are good. THe lines are pretty nice too and I like the way he put them out of the main trail. But he sure used manky wood for the rungs. He's a hell of a nice guy though and I never would've taken the trouble to work on Neds so I can't really say much about that.

[trail worker]

Originally posted by LeeLau
Sunshine Coast, Seymour; its all the same - you can't please everyone so might as well go ahead and do your own thing.
yep i agree completely with ya there!

[gimped]

Lee,

I'm sorry if I offended you. Yes I do work on the trails and wish I had more time to do so, but I don't. Why would you call me a spoiled downhiller? Please don't get abrasive. It offends me.

[LeeLau]

Originally posted by gimped
Lee,

I'm sorry if I offended you. Yes I do work on the trails and wish I had more time to do so, but I don't. Why would you call me a spoiled downhiller? Please don't get abrasive. It offends me.

I wasn't offended - just surprised that two people who agreed on the condition of Neds and what should be done about it went off on each other like that.

I said "I don't even know you but you're sure coming off like yet another one of the countless spoiled downhill racers wannabes". I made an assumption that you didn't work on trails. I used to race (I know you're a racer too from other threads) and tossed out a glaring stereotype because most of my buddies who raced were just too damn good to haul a bucket of dirt.

If you do work on trails then you should know how annoying it is for someone to flame you for your work. That's why I am surprised that you came down so hard on John and that you had such a hard time understanding why he'd be po'ed.

[Ah-Choo]

Originally posted by LeeLau
Sunshine Coast, Seymour; its all the same - you can't please everyone so might as well go ahead and do your own thing.

And heres the problem in a nutshell...

I'm going to make a few assumptions...

1) People that do trail work are not true beginners. It takes a certain amount of passion for the sport to take on such a monumental task.

2) People that do organized, or official trail work are GENERALLY not experts...they tend to build new trails, or just plain ride their bikes...(I can see some argument from this one...)

3) All builders will inherently build to their own level, even when maintaining a beginner trail.

I think we should get away from the Neds thing and talk in hypotheticals...It was a mistake to name trails/builders in the first place (I should know better by now eh Lee...)

If every-one who is working on trails increases the level of difficulty by a notch, what are we left with for the true beginner...

The problem is, even though we may or may not understand it, that we are in effect building one large park for the District of North Vancouver's benefit (even though they may not understand it at times). If that resource is to remain sustainable, it will have to appeal to riders of all skill levels, as well as to the people that live on the exits from these trails. Judging from the number of cars parked on Riverside, and the varied skill levels of the riders I see getting into those cars, having Neds as a one trail for all riders is doomed to failure from parking issues alone. We are already seeing the beginnings of that problem.

When any park or recreation facility is built, a certain degree of planning is necessary in order to make sure issues like these are taken into account, unfortunately when people "may as well do their own thing" the result is just what I am predicting for the North Shore, a middling of the difficulty level of all the trails ignoring the begginer, and for the most part the expert trails as well...

[Sharon]

LostBoy you started a good thread.

I think your assumptions are valid Ah-Choo.

North Van is such a weird little place for biking. Everywhere else - Squish, Sunshine Coast, Galbraith, Victoria,Hood River even Whistler, there's so much XC and "beginner" to go around to balance the stunt-filled or "expert" level trails. Even areas like Eagle and Pt Moody etc have a nice balance of beginner vs difficult trails.

I recently got my brother into biking and you're so right. There's very little around here for the beginner. There's some trails in the SDF, Camp Brick area; some below 1st switchback on Fromme; some trails in Mosquito Creek but not really a whole lot.

One big problem is our terrain - steep, rooty, wet. And so much traffic! It so hard to build a "beginner" - intermediate type trail here. It's just so tempting to make the trail difficult because the terrain is so conducive to it.

One other thing you've touched on also is that "difficult" trails are diverging. It used to be that you wouldn't think of cutting out a root. After all its a shore trail. Now I see rider preference for buff, bermed, fast trails with gap jumps and transistions all in the name of 'flow". Well, does one stick to the "old school" guns or build with the trend?

I had a good chuckle over Grimace and trailworker on another thread talking about switchbacks and why someone would put a switchback into a trail. They're so lucky! Awesome terrain to work with and not that much traffic. They're blessed with not having to deal with a Coiler!

Back to your points: It'd be great to get a little more support from DNV but I think that what they're doing now is much much better than what we had before.

It'd also be nice to have some planning but persuading people or bikers to stick to some kind of plan is going to be next to impossible imo. Rather like herding cats.

At some point all these injured bikers are going to catch up to us. I think that's a bigger potential problem than the fact that, sometime shortly in the future, we're going to run out of volunteer bodies to work on trails.

I don't really have an answer to either problem though

Originally posted by Ah-Choo
And heres the problem in a nutshell...

The problem is, even though we may or may not understand it, that we are in effect building one large park for the District of North Vancouver's benefit (even though they may not understand it at times). If that resource is to remain sustainable, it will have to appeal to riders of all skill levels, as well as to the people that live on the exits from these trails. Judging from the number of cars parked on Riverside, and the varied skill levels of the riders I see getting into those cars, having Neds as a one trail for all riders is doomed to failure from parking issues alone. We are already seeing the beginnings of that problem.

When any park or recreation facility is built, a certain degree of planning is necessary in order to make sure issues like these are taken into account, unfortunately when people "may as well do their own thing" the result is just what I am predicting for the North Shore, a middling of the difficulty level of all the trails ignoring the begginer, and for the most part the expert trails as well...

[trail worker]

Originally posted by Sharon

Now I see rider preference for buff, bermed, fast trails with gap jumps and transistions all in the name of 'flow". Well, does one stick to the "old school" guns or build with the trend?
I had a good chuckle over Grimace and trailworker on another thread talking about switchbacks and why someone would put a switchback into a trail. They're so lucky! Awesome terrain to work with and not that much traffic.

Yeah trails are definately changing..up here we have,for the most part fast flowy trails and barely anything that touches the roots and rocks of the shore.I do suppose we are priveldged to just wander into the woods and build a new trail pretty much wherever we damn well please:o
It is nice to live in such a place as this were we do not have the problem of ass holes who frown upon stunts and whatnot.
I really like the new style of trails that are very burmed and fast and I'ts a shame that they cant be built on the shore mountains as easily as they can up here.
It's a shame that easier trails cant be built on the shore because everyone has to start somewhere, and even the easiest trail on fromme is not the easiest in the world, at least not for a beggining rider.

[Niggz]

wow what a long read of all (well mostly) well educated opinions.....now its my turn.......
a lot of things I agree on have already been stated but i dont feel like repeating them now. anyways, my opinion on the stunt situation on neds is john never said he was building new stunts and i see no point in removing all the hard work of the good base of the existing logrides.

there are no easier trails on the shore and maybe nsmba should focus on fixing up some easier routes down fromme on old skidder roads or something over the next couple of years.
i also dont like how many trails and *tricky* sections are being dumbed down on the well used trails. i always like to leave a challenging part on my rides that i can not complete so i can come back and focus my skills to conquer the section at a later time. Yes i do like flow, however it seems to be popping up all over too much on the shore lately and everything is so smotth and fast that your ride down fromme is over in 30mins. i remmeber when i started out only 2 years ago that it took me two hours to negotiate the once challenging terrain to get down the mountain. i think trails should also be kept technically challenging if not made MORE challenging with the additions of lines. now im not saying to go make neds all challenging and difficult, but other, non-DH-oriented trails should be kept challenging. if this means making and putting lots of focus on easier trails next to these difficult ones to divert the traffic of the "begginer" riders then ill gladly put in a few days of work to buff up the easier lines. mountain biking will only get bigger and i think in the next few years there will be a huge amount of new people starting into this sport.

this leads me to another topic that has been discussed on the board, the parking issue. with only more people starting riding i can only imagine the horror of parking issues on seymour and the top of mountain hwy. already on sunny days the seymour lots are full and the only parking on fromme is a couple dozen blocks from the gate. i can see moutain hwy after the gate strictly closed to all people because of accidents with grouse mtn vehicles and bikers. everytime we ride up fromme we pass those big green and yellow signs that say NO TRESSPASSING, NO MOUNTAIN BIKING. i guess we will only find out what will happen in the future when we get there....... just a few things to think about...

edit...I aslo dont even want to start on the development slowly creeping up the mountain. how long will it be till we loose great trails such as diggers, groovula, and even mine and tylers???

[LostBoyScout]

Man, is development scary. Burke is the same way - I hear the figure of 10,000 planned houses popping up all the time - that means almost every trail on the mountain will be wiped out. Fromme is definitely in similar danger. But I guess we have to play it by ear and still enjoy what we have, for as long as we can...

Also, good point niggz bout the not being able to ride everything - Me and my buddies up there were mentioning that at the bottom of our ride - if you ride everything on the trail it does take away from some of the challenge for the next ride. I think a good imagination can go a LONG way though as well, though you have to be careful not to widen the trail - there are usually a few different lines down each section, and always taking the easiest one is no fun, to me. I primarily ride trials, which really teaches you to look at things with a more open mind to find new and unique lines to something you've ridden maybe once, maybe a hundred times before.

I certainly think the current trailbuilders do a great job. A really great job - but imput and ideas never hurt, and there's always room for a little improvement. These are IMO good guidelines to keep in mind (simple but easily overlooked):

- Keep a common style and difficulty for the duration of each trail (don't throw hard stuff on an easy trail and vice versa)

- Add as much variety in both style and difficulty on different trails

- Arrange the trails so a rider of each level can still get a good top to bottom run.. not just all the easy ones at the bottom so the more novice riders get shorter runs

- If possible without affecting the difficulty, make stunts both rollable and huckable (omit on very advanced trails)

I think stuff like tabletop ladders are cool because novices can ride them, and advanced riders can jump them... stuff like that

[trail worker]

Originally posted by LostBoyScout

I certainly think the current trailbuilders do a great job. A really great job - but imput and ideas never hurt, and there's always room for a little improvement. These are IMO good guidelines to keep in mind (simple but easily overlooked):
advanced trails)

there is just one other suggestion for a guideline wich some people will like and others will look down on(why? I dont really know...). Here it is:
I would like to see trails built with varying lines with varying dificulty. That is NOT to say that we should be building trails with 3 foot wide shakebridges and another line that features 10 foot hucks or a discombobulator, right next to each other...
We should try to incorporate a wider variety of lines that you are able to hit so you can get a little bit more taste for everything on one trail ie; have a series of smaller and larger drops to progress up to, have some different stunts so that if you arnt able to hit one, you wont feel as if you got "gipped" on the ride just because you werent able to hit the main line. I dont know how clear i was in explaining my point but I just want to see a variety of stunts on a trail to give it a bit of change from the constant. For example, lower ladies is a great trail with a few little rollers in there but when i rode it this summer we met up with a guy who couldnt hit the main rolercoaster(made famous in NSX5).I'm sure that he probably felt a little gipped because he rode the whole trail,probably really hoping that he could hit it, then when he got there he couldnt do it.I'm sure he would have been far happier if there had been a few other little things thrown in there to please himself.
just a thought.....

[gimped]

Yeah I'm sorry guys, I'll try and have a better opinion. Thanks Lee!

[Niggz]

thats a good idea trail worker

[Taylor_P]

trail worker and i have build a variety of trails, in the past and present. and with each new one that we build we find our selves incorpreting more and more altrenet routes, for example on out last trail we built a roll down off a rock that and then as an alternate routs we built a drop (to the direct left of the rock) off of a stump, that is five feet or so. the thing that we have been doin recently with our drops is to find a location with a nice long run out and good tranny then build a smaller drop(five feet or so) that with speed can be hucked to a bigger height. this way people who have difficulty with bigger drops can hit it at its smaller size of five feet, but for the folks that need a bigger challange they can rip down the trail and hit the drop to as big as they can manage.

[LostBoyScout]

Trailworker I agree with you on the several alternate lines of varying difficulty. BUT I think the amount of variation of difficulty shouldn't be very extreme - basically you want the main line to still be entertaining for a rider of a level who is considering doing the tough lines. To have a trail that's pretty easy, so the riders riding the trail will either never be able to see themselves doing the stunts or the guys doing the stunts will find the rest of the trail lame.. So make it so the stunts are pushing the level of the riders who are most likely going to be riding the trail anyway, so they have something to work towards that they can see with their own eyes :)

[trail worker]

Originally posted by LostBoyScout
Trailworker I agree with you on the several alternate lines of varying difficulty. BUT I think the amount of variation of difficulty shouldn't be very extreme - basically you want the main line to still be entertaining for a rider of a level who is considering doing the tough lines.

that is EXACTLY what i had in mind...i guess i just couldnt get my point acrss very clearly.

[switch]

I know this is a lot more work, but a stunt that's a ladder drop would be more useful to more riders if it had 2 or 3 different height options. I've seen photos of this kind of thing, but haven't seen it on the trails. A ladder and/or log ride to a ladder drop, that's 2 feet and 4 feet would make the ride much more useable for a lot more riders.

[trail worker]

Originally posted by switch
I know this is a lot more work, but a stunt that's a ladder drop would be more useful to more riders if it had 2 or 3 different height options. I've seen photos of this kind of thing, but haven't seen it on the trails. A ladder and/or log ride to a ladder drop, that's 2 feet and 4 feet would make the ride much more useable for a lot more riders.

this is exactly waht i want to build!!!!
an easier solution(if the terrain permits) is justto build a smaller drop with a large tranny that you can hit bigger and bigger. this saves on the work of building numerous drops but allows everyone to have fun.

[synchro]

On the original topic, I don't think it's a great idea to mix beginner/advanced riders onto one trail by making "a trail fully rollable without taking away from the fun for the advanced riders". It happens too often that you've got your groove on going down your favorite trail when you have to stop, avoid some small hit on the side or go back up the trail to ride a great section because it is clogged up with beginners/intermediates. The reason we have advanced trails is for advanced riders, for those who want to and can rip it up.

However, it is important to have trails for new riders that they can ride (not walk like 50%) and ENJOY. I can remember as a new rider being on a intermediate level run and having to worry about some freak running me over and cursing newbies as they flew by.

If you want to ride fast and drop big then do it on an advanced run. If you ride a beginner/intermediate type trail expect to see slower riders and respect their right to use the trail as well.

By building lots of options on difficult trails it encourages less skilled riders to take risks they may not be ready for and puts the brakes on for the faster riders when they have to avoid the "slowies". Lets have advanced trails for advanced riders and easier trails for newer riders. If it's an intermediate level trail, then we all just need to learn to play nice. Either don't block the trail and move out of the way or slow down just a bit, whichever applies.

:)

[LostBoyScout]

Originally posted by trail worker
this is exactly waht i want to build!!!!
an easier solution(if the terrain permits) is justto build a smaller drop with a large tranny that you can hit bigger and bigger. this saves on the work of building numerous drops but allows everyone to have fun.

Fer sure! I guess you want the trail's multiple lines to be more for different riding styles, rather than levels - some like drops, some like skinnies, etc.

[Putty]

Originally posted by LeeLau
Sunshine Coast, Seymour; its all the same - you can't please everyone so might as well go ahead and do your own thing.

Yup, if someone doesn't like what we build, they can come out and share their ideas and help. I don't claim to have all the answers. I am trying to build things that get harder and bigger, the further you go, with plenty of different skill level options.

[trail worker]

Originally posted by LostBoyScout
Fer sure! I guess you want the trail's multiple lines to be more for different riding styles, rather than levels - some like drops, some like skinnies, etc.
yep...thats the idea! today we started work on a 6 footer wich has a 30 foot long tranny...this should be great because it can cater to the intermediate to the crazy....i think the biggest you could hit this little drop would be to like 16-17 feet,the smallest being 6 feet or so.
the posibilities for stuff like this is asounding!
It is a little bit harder to incorporate stuff like skinnys and whatnot into multiple lines without building a bunch of different sections of bridge....
I love riding trails that give you all sorts of options...it makes things interesting!

[bullit_kid]

Putty are you thinking about putting a little practise area on Pangor ? Cause there is that little clearing that has no trees about little bit in front of swamp monster. There used to be a bridge going up onto a log and then off which is broken there as well.That would suit realy well. Cause I would be all for that, have maybe even some little gaps of ladder bridges, some skinneies. A few little drops (1-4 feet). There is also a log there to which is cedar. Perfect spot IMO.

[LostBoyScout]

Originally posted by trail worker
yep...thats the idea! today we started work on a 6 footer wich has a 30 foot long tranny...this should be great because it can cater to the intermediate to the crazy....i think the biggest you could hit this little drop would be to like 16-17 feet,the smallest being 6 feet or so.
the posibilities for stuff like this is asounding!
It is a little bit harder to incorporate stuff like skinnys and whatnot into multiple lines without building a bunch of different sections of bridge....
I love riding trails that give you all sorts of options...it makes things interesting!

Good stuff!

The best situation for a skinny line to me is this: Begins fairly wide.. then gets narrower and at each spot it gets narrrower, there is a ride-off to the side. Eventually it gets suuuper narrow, so that rarely will a rider make it to the end, with maybe a small drop, like 2 feet (nothing big since any rider that makes it will likely not be in perfect balance). That would be dope!!

And keeping it like 4 feet off the ground or less so it encourages people to take more chances :)

[LostBoyScout]

Originally posted by bullit_kid
Putty are you thinking about putting a little practise area on Pangor ? Cause there is that little clearing that has no trees about little bit in front of swamp monster. There used to be a bridge going up onto a log and then off which is broken there as well.That would suit realy well. Cause I would be all for that, have maybe even some little gaps of ladder bridges, some skinneies. A few little drops (1-4 feet). There is also a log there to which is cedar. Perfect spot IMO.

Great idea! I love that sort of thing. Like on SFU but the SFU spot is way too easy.

[Sharon]

Have you ridden espresso?

Originally posted by LostBoyScout
Good stuff!

The best situation for a skinny line to me is this: Begins fairly wide.. then gets narrower and at each spot it gets narrrower, there is a ride-off to the side. Eventually it gets suuuper narrow, so that rarely will a rider make it to the end, with maybe a small drop, like 2 feet (nothing big since any rider that makes it will likely not be in perfect balance). That would be dope!!

And keeping it like 4 feet off the ground or less so it encourages people to take more chances :)

[Putty]

Originally posted by bullit_kid
Putty are you thinking about putting a little practise area on Pangor ? Cause there is that little clearing that has no trees about little bit in front of swamp monster. There used to be a bridge going up onto a log and then off which is broken there as well.That would suit realy well. Cause I would be all for that, have maybe even some little gaps of ladder bridges, some skinneies. A few little drops (1-4 feet). There is also a log there to which is cedar. Perfect spot IMO.

It would be better to build something like that in a more accessible place so that more peeps can reach it without having to shuttle or peddal up old buck. Also, that whole trail is terrible in the rain...

Having said that, I know the area you are talking about, and I already had some ideas for that would incorporate all the things you talked about, and still flow with the trail.

I dropped Hoots an e-mail about putting something like that in at Myrtle, I believe there was some discussion about that at the GM. I offered to help build there if it is a go. He said he would get back to me.

[bullit_kid]

Chris,

There are already some, skinnies and bridges,

[Taylor_P]

Originally posted by LostBoyScout
Good stuff!

The best situation for a skinny line to me is this: Begins fairly wide.. then gets narrower and at each spot it gets narrrower, there is a ride-off to the side. Eventually it gets suuuper narrow, so that rarely will a rider make it to the end, with maybe a small drop, like 2 feet (nothing big since any rider that makes it will likely not be in perfect balance). That would be dope!!

And keeping it like 4 feet off the ground or less so it encourages people to take more chances :)

thats a pretty cool idea, the only thing(allt though not bad) is you would end up with one hell of a long skinny. cuz you'd have the first section then second and third or so. bu they would allhave to be at leasy 15 feet(or 12 i guess) in lengt, cuz the people who wanna ride the start would want to have at least a bit of length or else its like they just mount then have to get offcuzits too skinny, but any-we i think ive started to ramble, but im sure you get my point... :)

[switch]

Originally posted by bullit_kid
Chris,

There are already some, skinnies and bridges,

Where?


And Chris, I think at the NSMBA AGM Jay was talking about another area other than Myrtle, but I'm not positive as I missed the very start of his talk.

[bullit_kid]

Trust me there are skinnies at myrtle robert on one end ..

[axx]

neds is sweet! and will be even sweeter when its done , let john build what he wants AT LEAST SOMEONE IS FIXING IT. if you want dh, go to cypress. And john i will come up and help you sometime cause i want to make that trail better. I will add you on msn if you are reading this Props to you for doing trail maitenance! and i hope one of these days i will get to meet you and help you fix the trail.

[switch]

Originally posted by bullit_kid
Trust me there are skinnies at myrtle robert on one end ..

I've only seen a couple small ones right beside the slope where you start the run for the small dirt jumps. The times I've been down to Myrtle I play on them. There isn't much room for any more stuff there, unless some bush is cleared.

Or are you talking about other ones?

[bullit_kid]

Originally posted by switch
I've only seen a couple small ones right beside the slope where you start the run for the small dirt jumps. The times I've been down to Myrtle I play on them. There isn't much room for any more stuff there, unless some bush is cleared.

Or are you talking about other ones?

yes those are the ones ..

[LostBoyScout]

Originally posted by CoffeeMan
thats a pretty cool idea, the only thing(allt though not bad) is you would end up with one hell of a long skinny. cuz you'd have the first section then second and third or so. bu they would allhave to be at leasy 15 feet(or 12 i guess) in lengt, cuz the people who wanna ride the start would want to have at least a bit of length or else its like they just mount then have to get offcuzits too skinny, but any-we i think ive started to ramble, but im sure you get my point... :)

Yes it would be a lot of work.. but long skinnies are fuuuun!

[LostBoyScout]

Originally posted by Sharon
Have you ridden espresso?

Nope, but I spose I should put it on my list as trails to ride soon?

[Mountain Biker]

this thread is just way too long to see if my views are already posted...so here it goes:

why are trails like ned's beat to sh*t?

because they're beginer trails; a very rare breed of trail in this area. Everybody who's new to the shore, or who hasn't been riding long will hit up neds, because it's the standard 'test of metal' for the shore. It's kinda like testing the waters to see just what this "shore" thing is all about. With the huge amount of traffic going down neds, and the subsequent erosion, it's gotten to the point where it's pretty similar to the black diamond trails as far as difficulty goes(though it's still labeled intermediate), and because of this difficulty, most people don't progress beyond ned's, the so called 'beginner' trail, because it's hard enough as it is!

Trail maintenance with our current selection of beginner trails is nothing more than a band-aid. It masks the problem but doesn't get to the root of it. you can't expect to keep up with the traffic and buff the trail at the same time, because the buffer you make the trail, the more traffic you will get! it's a vicious circle and it requires far to many man hours to keep in check.

My proposal is to promote the use of, and build, alternate routes on some of the black diamond trails to allow for an easier line (while still providing the opportunity for a more difficult run if you chose). this will, in effect, increase the number of 'beginer' trails by making them dual rated trails... you can ride them one way which is challenging, or another which is less so.

To a degree, this is already taking place (mainly by people riding over their head and stomping their way around stunts that are too big for them), but I advocate that we take a hint from this 'problem' and use it to our advantage, namely, distributing traffic from the handfull of beginer trails across the entire mountain by creating more 'beginner' trails. this will cut down on the massive trail erosion that comes from over-use by opening new options for people, and thereby spreading the usage across a large number of trails. Reducing traffic on specific trails by diverting it to new ones will allow for a more sustainable trail network, which requires less frequent maintenace, aswell as less man-hours maintenance per trail.

It really should be obvious that beginer trails will have the most usage, (and why we should dual-rate trails to combat erosion).
if you look at mountainbiking in levels of skill, it plots a pyramid.
you have the beginners at the bottom, making up most of the sport, then you have a smaller percentage of intermediates, and even smaller percentage of experts, and at the top you have a handfull of pros. Is it any wonder these beginner trails are shot to f*ck? there's maybe 4-5 real beginer trails on the shore, and they have to keep up with the largest segment of users, while the ratio of black diamond and double blacks to expert riders is much higher... the smallest group, the top of the pyramid, has the most trails to choose from.

I'm sure some of my views will be scoffed at by the diehards who think you have to "earn" the right to ride these trails... to a degree, I agree with them, but when dealing with the problem of over-use, I think some concessions need to be made.


oh BTW: putty

great work on pangor, i rode it this morning and it's starting to look really nice( way better than the last time I rode it... gawd that trail was in rough shape!)... definitely well on it's way to being a fun, and very usable trail in the near future.

[Taylor_P]

Originally posted by LostBoyScout
Yes it would be a lot of work.. but long skinnies are fuuuun!

yes i agree, especially when there are curves and whatnot to make life more interesting. im not sure what my point was, i dont think i had one. :)