NSMBA Shuttle Service

[thewwkayaker]

Everyone aware of the NSMBA Shuttle Service that will be offered? Willy from JH sent an e-mail to everyone who bikes in their club rides about it.

Plan is to raise money for trail maintenance via advertising on the van they plan to purchase and the $5/shuttle.

No I don't believe it will shuttle Fromme (which is good).

I wonder how that fits in with the Chuckwaggon?

Thoughts?

[Cheese]

bad idea.

[Lady Gravity]

hmmmm
so is JH going to purchase the van, and use every $5 shuttle fee to put back into trail maintenance? ie donating the van and the driver for free, or not. if they did that, then yes i'd say it would work.

i'd have no probs paying $5 if i knew ALL of it was going back to the trails.

[Zedbra]

JH poking into shuttling their expensive parts, eh? I dunno how I feel about that. You would think a bike shop should be promoting people to actually ride their bikes up...

[Putty]

Originally posted by thewwkayaker
Everyone aware of the NSMBA Shuttle Service that will be offered? Willy from JH sent an e-mail to everyone who bikes in their club rides about it.

Plan is to raise money for trail maintenance via advertising on the van they plan to purchase and the $5/shuttle.

No I don't believe it will shuttle Fromme (which is good).

I wonder how that fits in with the Chuckwaggon?

Thoughts?

I think they should shuttle fromme, from some parking lot nearby that everyone agrees is usable by bikers w/o having the residents upset. It would be a good solution to the parking issues up there.

Chuckwagon IMO has less dibs on this than NSMBA, after all if it was not for the efforts of a few dedicated people we would not have any trials.

Having the money go back to trail building is the best thing that can happen, it will also assure that people who know how to build build, instead of district workers that may not have a good idea about building fun trials.

I have not heard anything official on this, but I think it is a great idea. If this is done right, I see it as a solution to many of the issues that are negatively affecting the sport.

Even if the money raised has to cover the cost of the driver, there would still be money left for trails.

[Rat]

Im all for it, solves parking issues and the money goes back to the trails. It could be a good tool to help more riders become active nsmba members as well.

[corey@nsmb.com]

I find the reaction to a JH offered shuttle service compared to Chuck Wagon interesting and am looking forward to seeing how it unfolds.

First: I think anything that puts resources back into the trails is wonderful and I support it.


Here is something I find interesting and I'd like to see a few perspectives.

What makes the JH NSMBA shuttle OK and a good idea, but the intro of Chuck Wagon an act of the devil? I am not talking so much about shuttling to trails that they shouldn't, so lets leave that out. I am talking about the principle behind it all. What makes this service "good" and the Chuck Wagon service something that has been the hub of lengthy and heated debate?


As Diggler would say..."Discuss"....

[Rat]

Because the revenue from the shuttles goes back into the trail system.

I think had the chuckwagon done a few small things from the begining they woud have had a much different reception, shuttling people up to CBC when they were told it was closed was just plain stupid.

If I was the chuckwagon guys I would have gone up to seymour and rebuilt a few shitty trail sections prior to launching my service. I can guarantee that they would have been received much differently.

[Putty]

Originally posted by Mulletron
I find the reaction to a JH offered shuttle service compared to Chuck Wagon interesting and am looking forward to seeing how it unfolds.

First: I think anything that puts resources back into the trails is wonderful and I support it.


Here is something I find interesting and I'd like to see a few perspectives.

What makes the JH NSMBA shuttle OK and a good idea, but the intro of Chuck Wagon an act of the devil? I am not talking so much about shuttling to trails that they shouldn't, so lets leave that out. I am talking about the principle behind it all. What makes this service "good" and the Chuck Wagon service something that has been the hub of lengthy and heated debate?


As Diggler would say..."Discuss"....

I don't think that Chuckwagon is inherently bad or that the NSMBA shuttle will be inherintly good. My point of contention is the fact whoever is doing the shuttle has to realize that the increased traffic (from both people discovering the sport over the last few years, and the availability of shuttling) on trials needs to be dealt with, and that is going to cost money.

Look at someone like me, I put in time that I do not get paid for, but I do get literaly 100s of dollars back from the NSMBA for things like nails and some tools. That is good, because it allows me to continue working without having to spend my own money. I am assuming CW is making a profit or breaking even, but AFAIK nothing is coming back to trial building (other than the shuttles they offer for trail days). I could be wrong on this, so no-one freak, just correct me if I am.

So my point is, whoever is doing business off the trails should put back into supporting maintenance and building, otherwise the trails will get so bad that no-one will even want to shuttle.

My 2 cents.

[Putty]

Originally posted by Rat
Because the revenue from the shuttles goes back into the trail system.

I think had the chuckwagon done a few small things from the begining they woud have had a much different reception, shuttling people up to CBC when they were told it was closed was just plain stupid.

If I was the chuckwagon guys I would have gone up to seymour and rebuilt a few shitty trail sections prior to launching my service. I can guarantee that they would have been received much differently.

Do they know what they are doing though? I've seen people sink sweet rocks into organic mud on trails, as part of maintenance. That kind of help is no help at all IMO.

[corey@nsmb.com]

Nice. Great replies! I see what you are saying and I do agree with the both of you. I just wanted to see someone lay out the qualities that make one or the other a more viable and helpful service.

Keep it coming!

[Zedbra]

My opinion - they are both the same. The money coming to the NSMBA is great - because they will need all of it (and then some)to even try to keep up maintenance from the damage that all the new shuttling riders will cause.

It's a cliche, eh.

[white ri0t]

Originally posted by Mulletron

As Diggler would say..."Discuss"....

Well. I would also say "ride up" :P

I think it's a good idea that the NSMBA is getting in on the shuttling thing, from what I can gather the Chuckwagon deal isn't doing the trails any good. It is a good idea to get a lot more money going back into the trails and such. And prolly great exposure for JH. It will be interseting to see how it gets set up.

I hafta agree with Rat though, maybe shuttles to the top of the Mtn. Highway are a good idea, relieving a lot of the parking issues up there.

But I still feel that Seymour is beyond repair, the mountain reached critical mass as it was called a few years ago, and there is not much that can be done to really bring it back, there are just way to many apethetic weekend warriors who just want to get 7 runs on sunday in on Neds. But that is just my opinion. I doubt that after the ride I did on Seymour when I was in town I will ever ride there again.

[Putty]

Originally posted by Derek Diggler
Well. I would also say "ride up" :P


But I still feel that Seymour is beyond repair, the mountain reached critical mass as it was called a few years ago, and there is not much that can be done to really bring it back, there are just way to many apethetic weekend warriors who just want to get 7 runs on sunday in on Neds. But that is just my opinion. I doubt that after the ride I did on Seymour when I was in town I will ever ride there again.

riding up is the way to go.

but you are completely wrong about seymour being beyond repair. neds might be, but there are a lot of good trails up there. go ride there now after some of the work and see, or dont--less traffic.

[white ri0t]

I would, but the interior has so much more to offer, the trails are better built, the stunts cooler, safer and sturdier and...quiter.

[Zedbra]

Originally posted by Derek Diggler
I would, but the interior has so much more to offer, the trails are better built, the stunts cooler, safer and sturdier and...quiter.

Have party, will travel....

Think I can get shuttled there for 5 bucks - cuz then my opinion on this issue would vastly sway...

[XXX_er]

there is a shuttle service in Williams lake but its privatley run

Williams lake is definatley worth checking out,they are doing some great stuff there

[Lady Gravity]

Originally posted by Derek Diggler
Well. I would also say "ride up" :P

ahem
i heard how you "rode up" fromme :lol: :lol:

[Sunday Rider]

I'm happy to see the shuttle on Seymour but it should definitely stay off Fromme. I don't think the access road could take the traffic plus it's a nice ride up. As for parking, Dempsey is good.

[T-bone]

Originally posted by Sunday Rider
I'm happy to see the shuttle on Seymour but it should definitely stay off Fromme. I don't think the access road could take the traffic plus it's a nice ride up. As for parking, Dempsey is good.

I don't think they were implying that the Fromme shuttle would go all the way up the access road. I believe it would go from somewhere at the bottom of Mtn. Hwy up to the top near the yellow gate.....riders would still have to ride up the dirt road past the gate. I think it's meant to solve the parking issue on Mtn Hwy.......the best way to do that is to park a schools and stuff at the bottom of Mtn Hwy and then have a shuttle up to the yellow gate.

Is that right.......anyone?

[Sharon]

That's the idea.

Another question, How much would you pay for a shuttle from say Argyle or Lynn Valley Mall to the water tower on Mt. Hwy?

Originally posted by T-bone
I don't think they were implying that the Fromme shuttle would go all the way up the access road. I believe it would go from somewhere at the bottom of Mtn. Hwy up to the top near the yellow gate.....riders would still have to ride up the dirt road past the gate. I think it's meant to solve the parking issue on Mtn Hwy.......the best way to do that is to park a schools and stuff at the bottom of Mtn Hwy and then have a shuttle up to the yellow gate.

Is that right.......anyone?

[corey@nsmb.com]

Originally posted by Sharon
Another question, How much would you pay for a shuttle from say Argyle or Lynn Valley Mall to the water tower on Mt. Hwy?


Sounds like a trick question....Start the bidding low!

How much would you pay? :) :P

[Rat]

Originally posted by Sharon
That's the idea.

Another question, How much would you pay for a shuttle from say Argyle or Lynn Valley Mall to the water tower on Mt. Hwy?

Zip

if your going to ride up anyway who wants to bother shuttling up to cut 10 minutes off your ride.

[T-bone]

Originally posted by Sharon
Another question, How much would you pay for a shuttle from say Argyle or Lynn Valley Mall to the water tower on Mt. Hwy?

How about a Twoonie??? I think the real question is how much should the shuttle make for each run up Mtn Hwy? If it can fit, let's say, 8 riders then it would be making $16 per shuttle. If it shuttles about 10 times in a day, that's $160.

I suggested a Twoonie because it's easy to give without needing change back! I guess the same could be said if the price was $5, it's still easy to give a $5 bill and not worry about having to deal with change but I know I'd ride up Mtn Hwy instead of paying $5 for a 2 minutes shuttle ride.

Maybe 2 Twoonies ($4)???? Funny how I'd ride (bike) up if it was $5 bucks but that I might be inclined to take the shuttle for $4!!!!! With my saved dollar, I could buy an ice cream cone at McDonalds!!!!! :D

[Rat]

those who ride fromme are obviously prepared to ride up. with proper information I think we can get folks to disperse the parking. If someone found a letter on thier car window expaining the parking problem and asking if they would'nt mind parking on braemer or at Lynn Valley Elementery school they would do it all the time.

[(oasta|_]

$5 from the seabus, $2-3 from Lynn Valley Mall.

4 or 5 times a day would be great for weekends.
Every 2 hours from 9:00 'til 5:00
Weekdays? Maybe an early and a late trip?
That's what I'd like to see anyway.

I think it's a great idea because it wouldn't allow you to shuttle the trails so I don't see the hardcore shuttlers moving over.
It would reduce parking disputes, and put money into maintenance. Nothin' but good stuff.

If it were accessible to the seabus it would be an awsome opportunity now that Translink is allowing bikes on the Skytrain. :thepimp:

[white ri0t]

Originally posted by Lady Gravity
ahem
i heard how you "rode up" fromme :lol: :lol:

ADAM WAS HUNG OVER AND I DIDN'T FEEL LIKE WAITING FOR AN HOUR FOR EVERYONE SO I WALKED OK

AT LEAST I CAME OUT AND WAS NOT A SELLOUT OK

[bunny]

I think in theory it's a great idea to solve the parking problem on fromme, but in reality I don't think it will be nearly as popular as on seymour. We have to climb anyway, and it really isn't a big deal to ride up the road a bit, whereas the fat ;) harsh shuttlers on seymour would probably pay $5 for a ride up from the mushroom to the corkscrew trailhead on a bad (hungover) day.

I very selfishly think shuttling on seymour is good (I am hungover sometimes too). It is a different kind of ride, and I hate to say but this is what it has become... a different market on seymour. I love riding up, but when there is time for either a shuttle or a jello shooter and a jump off the tramp... i pick the shuttle every time. :P

[Zedbra]

Originally posted by Derek Diggler
ADAM WAS HUNG OVER AND I DIDN'T FEEL LIKE WAITING FOR AN HOUR FOR EVERYONE SO I WALKED OK

AT LEAST I CAME OUT AND WAS NOT A SELLOUT OK

Not even close to a sell out, like the place was empty...

[bunny]

Originally posted by Derek Diggler
ADAM WAS HUNG OVER AND I DIDN'T FEEL LIKE WAITING FOR AN HOUR FOR EVERYONE SO I WALKED OK

AT LEAST I CAME OUT AND WAS NOT A SELLOUT OK

:lol: Adam's always hungover. At least he's not weird. :lol:

[white ri0t]

I am not responding to this thread. Anymore. :mad:

[Zedbra]

Originally posted by Derek Diggler
I am not responding to this thread. Anymore. :mad:

You're gonna miss out on Superzero filming on Monday I hear. Why?

[white ri0t]

don't taunt me!
HOW DID YOU KNOW I WAS A SUPERZERO

[Zedbra]

Originally posted by Derek Diggler
don't taunt me!
HOW DID YOU KNOW I WAS A SUPERZERO

Me and Jerm are buds. I help film from time to time, we ride together weekly.

[bunny]

Aaawww, Derek, don't be a grouch. I am pretty sure being a weirdo is better than being a hippie, and the really good news is I hear some guy named Ross really wants to buy a jersey from you. :)

[Lady Gravity]

Originally posted by Derek Diggler
ADAM WAS HUNG OVER AND I DIDN'T FEEL LIKE WAITING FOR AN HOUR FOR EVERYONE SO I WALKED OK

AT LEAST I CAME OUT AND WAS NOT A SELLOUT OK

OUCH!!! :(

i had to work :cry:

[thewwkayaker]

Here is the actual e-mail:

Please read this and forward this to whomever this proposal would apply to. I would appreciate it if you could also cc me the name and contact information of the sponsorship person. Please take this seriously, it could mean the difference between continued growth of mountain biking in the hotbed of the mountain biking world.



North Shore Mountain Bike Association Shuttle Van Proposal



Who Are the NSMBA?

The NSMBA has always taken a very proactive approach to continued existence of mountain biking on the North Shore. Without financial resources and with only member support and sheer effort has the NSMBA continued to exist and represent mountain biking interests on the fabled North Shore. Without the support of government, like sports such as hockey, soccer, skateboarding, or swimming, mountain biking and the network of trails has been, and is, continuing to be self sufficient, relying on the guiding hands of existing avid trail builders and the organized band of mountain bike riders of the NSMBA. The NSMBA is a full fledged charitable organization.



Problems:

With the massive number of people riding the North shore trails and considering the North Shore’s international appeal and draw the network of trails is becoming increasingly harder to maintain and keep in environmentally respectable condition. It is not a battle that is lost nor is it conceivable that it ever will be. It is just hard to keep up.

The advent of driving to the top of a trail, or shuttling as it is known, has further increased the impetus to improve the mountain bike trails and to continually improve and maintain them. To keep this sort of effort up it is impossible to do without funding. Trail crews need to be constantly working to keep the environment in good shape. It is completely possible to do this, but how?



Concept:

The NSMBA has decided that a very feasible way to address both the rider’s needs and the environmental needs of trail maintenance is to combine the two. The proposal is to lease a 15 passenger van and a carrying trailer. This van would display visible logos of supporting companies all the while “shuttling” riders up the mountains for a fee. By procuring advertising or supporters logos we would hopefully offset most of the hard costs of the van, trailer, insurance, gas, and paid driver so that any funds taken from riders, presumably a $5 per trip charge, would be used to finance full time trail crews. By having one van up and down the mountain the environmental impact is completely reduced because there is much less fossil fuels being emitted and riders are still happy they can get to the top of the mountains. Full time trail crews would legitimize the maintenance being done on trails currently as well as improve and encourage more maintenance to be done. This is a win, win for all concerned; Government, riders, trails, and NSMBA.



Costs:

To run the van in all aspects for most of the summer we have assumed the cost of $30,000.00. Logos of 18”, which would normally be charged per year, are going to receive the remainder of this summer and then next summer entirely for a price of $1500.00 cash. Each logo will be 18” around and the purchase of this advertising is completely charitable and therefore deductible. It goes without saying that you can buy as many logo spots as you wish and we would encourage donations of as much as possible (Please!). Please contact Willie Cromack at John Henry the Bicycle Man for any information necessary. He can be reached at willie@johnhenrybikes.com or 604-986-5534.





Willie Cromack

John Henry the Bicycle Man Ltd.

phone: 604-986-5534

email: willie@johnhenrybikes.com

100-400 Brooksbank Ave.

North Vancouver, BC

Your 'North Shore' Bicycle Professionals:

Providing You With More Knowledge, Information, & Products so You Can Ride More and Research Less

[bunny]

Derek, I will even give you some good hippie ammo to make it fair if you want to fight. :) www.maddox.xmission.com/hippies.html :lol:

[white ri0t]

Tammy, you suck at the internet. the link doesn't work OK



:P

[Couch_Surfer]

I'm of the opinion that the Seymour Shuttling Situation (apologies for the alliteration) has wrecked Neds - agreed that some other trails are still excellent, but I used to love to take beginners on that trail to give them some exposure to North Shore riding... with good results. Last time I tried that, a group of 4 a$$hole$ nearly decapitated my girlfriend as she was sizing up a stunt.

Fortunately I've salvaged her opinion of the Shore and its citizens and now we ride Fromme routinely (nothing is better then the friendly camraderie on Fromme - everyone says hi to everyone else). I think it's sad that NSMBA would try to get in on the shuttling aspect of riding. Now before I get too far up on my high horse, yes I have shuttled Seymour in the past and yes it's a blast. But the volume is just too high now.

What really is concerning is the idea of shuttling people to the yellow gate. I would hate to see Fromme exposed in the same way that Seymour was. I think its both hilarious and sad that Fromme scares people off because there is pedaling (up) involved. Come on folks...these are freaking bicycles! If the uphill scares people away from Fromme - I say GREAT - these are the people that I don't want on the mountain (Flame away folks but I'm willing to bet its the same types that nearly killed me on Ned's the last time out there - and I do mean LAST).

Further and more importantly, the residents around there are pissed with us - does anyone honestly think they'll be happier when a fume spewing van full of bikers stops at the yellow gate and the riffraff (lets face it, to them we are riffraff)unloads? <sarcasm>Cause I'm sure it would be an orderly and quiet unloading and not a bunch of yelling, swearing etc...</sarcasm> Lets try and not piss them off in a new fashion. I say we just quit whining about the hill and ride our damn bikes up.

i'll climb down off my soapbox now.

[white ri0t]

good points, especially the part about the climb scaring people off. I agree, the less riders the better, IMO. I always used to ride midweek in the day, there would be hardly a soul up there, it was great.

[ryan]

slapping the word "NSMBA" on the side of a van doesn't solve the issue of trail traffic. and i'm assuming that only NSMBA sanctioned trails will be funded by the program, yet other non-NSMBA trails will be accessed through it.

[thewwkayaker]

The point here is obtaining funding for trail work. Other than selling hashbrownies they need a way to get mtn bikers to pony up a lot more. We may all dream of "free" riding but the volume of traffic requires $$ to fix what use to require little work.

I think the solution might be to allow ONLY the NSMBA van up Seymour, no other bikes on vehicles allowed. You pay to shuttle up (thus helping the trails) or you ride up (thus limiting the number of runs on the trails you'll be doing). Everyone wins (better environment, better trails) - OK the hardcore shuttlers are a bit poorer but so what?

[white ri0t]

why are they spending 1500 on something that is only 18" long?

I think that more efforts should be focused upon maintaining fromme so it doesn't end up like seymour.

bunny, the link still doesn't work. but I am familiar with maddox, so don't further embarass yourself by posting another link :lol:

[bunny]

thanks adam... ok. the page to insult me is at...
mission.com/nohippies.html go nuts derel :)

[white ri0t]

who is this "derel" person you speak of?

[Lady Gravity]

Originally posted by bunny
thanks adam... ok. the page to insult me is at...
mission.com/nohippies.html go nuts derel :)

HAHAHAHA
christ woman i am POSITIVE you are a closet blonde :lol: :lol: omg you make me laugh

[bunny]

:woot: judy, you should try it...i laugh more making other people laught than they do :) :) :) :) :)

[Lady Gravity]

hahahaha yeah no kidding
i need to laugh..it's been the #1 day from hell :)
thank god i'm riding tomorrow

[Putty]

Originally posted by Derek Diggler
why are they spending 1500 on something that is only 18" long?


isn't that what you did?

btw, what happend to

"im not responding to this thread anymore?"

:friend:

[Niggz]

put a big yellow gate at the bottom on seymour during non-ski season. the only other poeple using the road are hikers and they can hike from the bottom.

[T-bone]

I really can't believe we're all still trying to figure this problem out as if it hasn't been solved already. It's like everyone is trying to re-invent the wheel here or something.

Take a second and look at the big picture......(reference Whistler here). I know it's hard to face but if the North Shore is going to work from here on in, it's got to be set up as a business. I know the thought of that sucks, because part of what we all love is the freedom of riding down trails that were built with our own sweat and blood (well, some of us) but with the number of people riding the NS now and the level of popularity of our sport and our location (World renowned), it's not going to work this way anymore.....no matter how many shuttles we have or don't have.

Here are some interesting points:

1. Trail builders build for free and spend their own time and money working on "their" trails knowing full well that thousands of riders are going to use their trails......yet they still build them and then complain about it.

2. Trail builders whine about the lack of help they get with building/maintaining......but they whine even more when anybody else touches their trails.

3. Trail maintenance days are great......but don't/can't happen enough to keep up with the maintenance needs of the shore.

4. Our trails are built on land where they're not fully approved to be therefore there's an ongoing battle with the city and we aren't even able to bulid/maintain the way we want.

Look at all the other sports......they've all got venues now that are fully approved (and mostly funded) by the city and they all work great...... soccer fields, skate parks, tennis courts etc.

It's not a difficult issue to figure out. Grouse mountain (or whoever owns it) doesn't even realize that they're sitting on a gold mine right now.......one that would profit them as well as us, the riders. If I owned that land, I know that I'd build a parking lot near the yellow gate, install a chair lift, and then hire people to build/maintain the trails. How the hell is biking different than skiing???

I still can't figure out why we're all acting like there's no possible solution to this problem when it's happened with so many other sports (skateboarding) as well as ours and has already been shown to be beneficial if set up properly (Whister).

Anyway, that's my rant and I hope you guys/gals understand what I'm trying to say.

As a final point, I'd like to make sure that you all know that I would still rather RIDE up and ride down for free and be able to build/maintain trails myself but that's just not going to work anymore......the sport is too big. Compared to all the shit that's going on right now (and it's really pathetic) I would rather pay to ride at a place where I'm allowed to ride, where I don't have residents glaring at me like I'm a criminal and where the trails are properly maintained by people who don't get pissed/whine at you for riding them.

Thanks,
T-bone

[Incorrigible]

Is there any talk of allowing bikes on the gondola? Just a whacky thought. They'd make a mint.

[LeeLau]

Who bitched you out? If it was me I'm very sorry. I'm usually a pretty happy guy but maybe I had a bad day?

1. I think the only time builders complaining about people riding their trail is when riders don't use basic etiquette when riding. Kind of analogous to inviting a guest with diarrhea into your home.

2. Help on a trail is almost always appreciated. You only hear about the bad and not the good on this board.

3. There is a hell of a lot more money in skiing than there is in biking.

Originally posted by T-bone
Here are some interesting points:

1. Trail builders build for free and spend their own time and money working on "their" trails knowing full well that thousands of riders are going to use their trails......yet they still build them and then complain about it.

2. Trail builders whine about the lack of help they get with building/maintaining......but they whine even more when anybody else touches their trails.



It's not a difficult issue to figure out. Grouse mountain (or whoever owns it) doesn't even realize that they're sitting on a gold mine right now.......one that would profit them as well as us, the riders. If I owned that land, I know that I'd build a parking lot near the yellow gate, install a chair lift, and then hire people to build/maintain the trails. How the hell is biking different than skiing???

[Incorrigible]

Only because it's better marketed. As soon as lift access is there, everybody does it. Whistler is now world famous for biking, not just for skiing. Skiing took many many years to get popular in North America. I hate to date myself, but I remember Whistler when it was Alta Lake, and a couple of chair lifts.

[Putty]

more people in bike park = less people on trail = good

[trout]

We have a shuttle service here in Rossland called Summit Rides. It's not easy to make a living in these parts so the locals are stoked to see a business start here and make a go of it. It brings more people to the area and many other business's benefit.

Local folks as well as the Kootenay- Columbia trail society ( www.rosslandtrails.ca ) build and maintain trails. There are no conflicts between the shuttle drivers and the trail builders, we're all friends. No one expects them to pay to use the trails, if they have time to help out with trail work, they do.
The shuttle service is great for out of towners who don't know their way around and they often get to ride with a local.

[Putty]

Originally posted by LeeLau
Who bitched you out? If it was me I'm very sorry. I'm usually a pretty happy guy but maybe I had a bad day?

1. I think the only time builders complaining about people riding their trail is when riders don't use basic etiquette when riding. Kind of analogous to inviting a guest with diarrhea into your home.

2. Help on a trail is almost always appreciated. You only hear about the bad and not the good on this board.

3. There is a hell of a lot more money in skiing than there is in biking.

I only bitch at people I know, and even then its just for fun. Honestly, I've had so much good help on Pangor from people passing by, it is amazing.

[Putty]

Originally posted by LeeLau
Kind of analogous to inviting a guest with diarrhea into your home.


no shit...i'll never do that again:rolleyes:

they never tell you ahead of time either, now that's worse than any builder.

[Lady Gravity]

Originally posted by LeeLau
diarrhea

Originally posted by putty
no shit...

:lol: :lol:

[Putty]

Originally posted by Lady Gravity
:lol: :lol:

ahh, someone still sees the subtle shit...

[T-bone]

LeeLau.......

Nobody's bitched me out personally and I guess that's because I'm an experienced rock piler!! .........but I've heard many stories of SOME builders who are a little too proprietary when it comes to "their" trails. However, if the builders were being paid to build the trails, then there'd be less of that feeling I'm sure.

My main point was that NS mtn biking as we know it is currently in that "in between" stage where we're big enough to be a "real" sport and have proper funding but we're just not fully recognized yet......but I believe it's coming in the next few years. Remember how skateboarders were 15 years ago??? Now look at what they've got........

The problem is also only with the high traffic areas like the Shore. I'm sure if you're building your own trails on land somewhere in the interior or the middle of nowhere......then there aren't any issues because there's nobody around to complain about it and there probably isn't even 1/20th the amount of riders riding your trails. Out there, nobody cares that you're building trails......but here we've got hundreds of sets of eyes watching our every move.

So the build/maintain for free system probably isn't going to work anymore on the NS because it's too hard to keep up.....and I don't believe a shuttle service is going to cover the costs for everything that actually needs to be done.

[LeeLau]

I was just trying to make you feel guilty.

I hate the thought that someday it will be rider pays but I fear you are right.

What may be a solution is for one of the local skihills to put in chair-assisted riding. That will take a ton of pressure off Seymour and Cypress as the motoheads can then go to whistler and the local hill for their jollies. Maybe that will happen but its sure not happening quick.

Proprietary builders -- ha -the one with the 13 trails? OK you don't have to answer that

Originally posted by T-bone
LeeLau.......

Nobody's bitched me out personally and I guess that's because I'm an experienced rock piler!! .........but I've heard many stories of SOME builders who are a little too proprietary when it comes to "their" trails. However, if the builders were being paid to build the trails, then there'd be less of that feeling I'm sure.

My main point was that NS mtn biking as we know it is currently in that "in between" stage where we're big enough to be a "real" sport and have proper funding but we're just not fully recognized yet......but I believe it's coming in the next few years. Remember how skateboarders were 15 years ago??? Now look at what they've got........

The problem is also only with the high traffic areas like the Shore. I'm sure if you're building your own trails on land somewhere in the interior or the middle of nowhere......then there aren't any issues because there's nobody around to complain about it and there probably isn't even 1/20th the amount of riders riding your trails. Out there, nobody cares that you're building trails......but here we've got hundreds of sets of eyes watching our every move.

So the build/maintain for free system probably isn't going to work anymore on the NS because it's too hard to keep up.....and I don't believe a shuttle service is going to cover the costs for everything that actually needs to be done.

[corey@nsmb.com]

Originally posted by LeeLau
That will take a ton of pressure off Seymour and Cypress as the motoheads can then go to whistler and the local hill for their jollies

"Motoheads" or whatever you call them comprise a significant portion of those that ride bikes. You make it sound like they are a bunch of monkies who need to get there rocks off in a somehow less repsectable way that other types of riders do (btw, I know you are kidding! But other people might read into that term differently).

We are all riders of bicycles. If MTB is to survive this unsettled period, we need to recognize that we are "ONE" and need a unified voice to emerge with solutions that accomodate everyone.

The instant we start dividing ourselves into disciplines and brushing off those diciplines that we don't focus on (eg. DH'ers dismissing XC riders and trails) is the instant we begin to fall apart from the inside out.

we are all

MOUNTAIN BIKE RIDERS

[Putty]

i'm a FIRETRUCK

[corey@nsmb.com]

Originally posted by putty
i'm a FIRETRUCK

:lol: :lol: :lol:

Too funny!

[LeeLau]

I stereotype like an albino porch monkey. You know I meant mulletheads.

Actually, in the vast majority of the biking world, most trails have tons of ups and downs; not a lot of places like Van where you ride or shuttle up then get one long dhill.

But maybe you were just talking about the Vancouver area?

Originally posted by Mulletron
[B]"Motoheads" or whatever you call them comprise a significant portion of those that ride bikes. You make it sound like they are a bunch of monkies who need to get there rocks off in a somehow less repsectable way that other types of riders do (btw, I know you are kidding!

[corey@nsmb.com]

Originally posted by LeeLau
I stereotype like an albino porch monkey. You know I meant mulletheads.

Actually, in the vast majority of the biking world, most trails have tons of ups and downs; not a lot of places like Van where you ride or shuttle up then get one long dhill.

But maybe you were just talking about the Vancouver area?

:lol: I know Lee ! :lol:

I did mean just the Vancouver area, the place that sees to be under the scope right now.

Cheers!

[LeeLau]

Originally posted by Mulletron
:lol: I know Lee ! :lol:

I did mean just the Vancouver area, the place that sees to be under the scope right now.

Cheers!

Most times I post I've got tongue so far in cheek if I had it in any deeper I'd have to analize.

Keep it in perspective, mtb is here to stay in Vancouver. No way the scene is going away. One only hears the bad and never the good. They love us I tell you!

[corey@nsmb.com]

True true... It gets depressing at times when all you hear are the things that are at stake and the looming changes we are going to have to accept as a possibility.

Don't they get it? We just want to ride!

If we could get some of these finger pointers out for just one ride, how could they not fall in love with it?

[m33p]

Considering the profits from the shuttle service go towards the nsmba and the tools and supplies they need it's a lot better than going into some guys pocket.

[Pat T.®]

Originally posted by T-bone
However, if the builders were being paid to build the trails, then there'd be less of that feeling I'm sure.

CBC? I think Jeremy and that trail have matching wedding bands...... Hehe, actual trail crews though, IMBA is a good example, would be great. But I think the just a shuttle service would not make enough money to keep it going. Maybe a donation box at the yellow gate, just pop in a twoonie every trip up past the gate, or heck even a loonie for that matter. And the shuttle should unload at the water tower, that way no one has to look at the "grimey" bikers exiting the shuttle van........and for an extra $20 the van will take you to 7th....LOL Maybe they can get one of these? http://www.snipesbicycles.com/images/510_taxi10.JPG

Photo from Snipes web site

[switch]

Originally posted by T-bone
1. Trail builders build for free and spend their own time and money working on "their" trails knowing full well that thousands of riders are going to use their trails......yet they still build them and then complain about it.
Nope. The more riders, the better. I love the sport, and want others to enjoy it too. If I can make it up to work on a trail, and put some effort into fixing it up, then I hope someone will ride it. Otherwise, what the heck did I go up there for in the first place?


2. Trail builders whine about the lack of help they get with building/maintaining......but they whine even more when anybody else touches their trails.
Nope. Trail builders do it for the love of it, and because they want to give back to the sport. It is fun work, a relaxing time, and it is rewarding to give something back to the sport that you love.


3. Trail maintenance days are great......but don't/can't happen enough to keep up with the maintenance needs of the shore.
Trail days are very positive. During the last year, the Seymour trails CBC, Corskcrew, and Pingu have really improved because of trail days. Overall maintenance of all the existing trails on Seymour is reaching the point where by this fall most of the trails will be weather ready. Fromme has a lot of maintenance occuring, and would have more if not for the current issues. Just look how much Espresso improved in the last year because of trail days. Pipeline was going to get the same treatment this year.


4. Our trails are built on land where they're not fully approved to be therefore there's an ongoing battle with the city and we aren't even able to bulid/maintain the way we want.
Sure we are. The NSMBA said that we would maintain the existing and designated trails. That is exactly what is being done.

[T-bone]

Switch, thanks for the responses to my points...you're obviously one of those builders that I WASN'T talking about. I share your opinion completely......build for fun and ride for fun. The only problem is that I'm still afraid to go build on the shore in fear of breaking the law or something!!!

What ever happened to the good 'ol days when nobody gave a shyte whether the kids on their bikes were having fun in the forest??? Are we really this much of a problem right now??? I'm really trying to look at this whole situation (building as well as parking issues....) perspectively and it just doesn't make sense that we're really dealing with such rediculous issues right now.

(To LeeLau)
I personally don't have any problems with lift accessed riding, pay shuttling or even personal shuttleing (I have a bike rack in the back of my pickup truck for crap sakes!) simply because it's just another aspect of the sport. I don't mind shuttling up Seymour just like I don't mind riding up Fromme. I don't consider shuttling riders any less of a "rider" than people who choose to bike up. Just like I don't think any less of XC riders not wanting to ride down 70 degree slopes or huck themselves off 10 foot drops.....they're all just different aspects of our sport.

[Couch_Surfer]

Originally posted by T-bone
I personally don't have any problems with lift accessed riding, pay shuttling or even personal shuttleing (I have a bike rack in the back of my pickup truck for crap sakes!) simply because it's just another aspect of the sport. I don't mind shuttling up Seymour just like I don't mind riding up Fromme. I don't consider shuttling riders any less of a "rider" than people who choose to bike up. Just like I don't think any less of XC riders not wanting to ride down 70 degree slopes or huck themselves off 10 foot drops.....they're all just different aspects of our sport.

I'll agree with you on this point. They are all valid aspects of the same sport. However, I think we need to look at what comes from an increase in shuttling under a more critical eye before saying "Give 'er Dude! Open the yellow gate and let the shuttles go."

I too remember when everyone was just out having fun in the forest and it was all good. During those days, shuttling happened, but there weren't the massive quantity of riders doing it that there are now. I won't ride Ned's anymore due to my experiences there in the last two years - nearly getting clipped by 'fellow' riders. It used to be a good trail to ease new riders into the shore experience... now it seems to be viewed as downhill prep.

What happened to a bunch of people having fun in the woods? Dunno. I'll shoot back with what happened to rider etiquette and responsibility?

Shuttling has a place in the community - hell, I like a good shuttle now and then. But I don't think we need to turn the sport into an all shuttle recreation. People can learn to ride up a mountain here and there. You wanna shuttle? Fine. There is Seymour, Whistler and Cypress. 3 out of 4? pretty good odds by anyone's standards.... and.... all you have to do to get to the trails on the fourth is ride up. Status Quo is good enough. Keeps the volume of riders on Fromme to a manageable level if they don't want to do the <cough cough> work of riding up.

Parking issues? Tag a 15 minute road ride onto your trail experience. Ride your bike up from 10th and Lonsdale, or the seabus or any other spot. You might find you like it.
Trail Maintenance funding problems? Convince the city that we aren't a bunch of pricks and that there is a benefit in funding maintenance. Try looking to other sources - corporate sponsership? "Mountain Dew fuels Air Supply"; "The GM Pipeline"... ok maybe that's not the best idea i've ever had...

anyway - discussion and debate are healthy for the sport.
cheers
t

[switch]

Originally posted by T-bone
Switch, thanks for the responses to my points...you're obviously one of those builders that I WASN'T talking about. I share your opinion completely......build for fun and ride for fun. The only problem is that I'm still afraid to go build on the shore in fear of breaking the law or something!!!


Nah, I bitch often as it's hard not to. But the plan is to make things better, and as another thread on this board has said, "ride more - bitch less". What's the addage? "You can be part of the problem, or part of the solution." Or something like that. I'll try for the latter and see if things work out.

As for breaking any laws, just fix things up if you feel like doing some trail work. Most people want to get out the chainsaw and build cool stunts, but there's more to trailwork than that. Fixing a section so that there is good drainage, or rocking an area to protect roots and decrease erosion, are necessary things too.

People might not like to hear it, but the future of mountain biking on a mountain like Seymour is armoured trails. It is impossible to have "old school" trails when you get the traffic we're seeing now. Change is inevitable. For those who do not like change, there will be bitching. For those that can handle it, there will be new adventures.

And it would be nice to see some figures on the numbers of hikers vs. number of bikers on Seymour. The local governments should recognize the change in usage without fearing it.

[Putty]

im of the opinion that armouring and ladders can still be fun to ride. look at the ladders i built at the top of pangor, they are over a swamp, and I have paved it, but everyone that hits the berms has a shit eating grin coming out. you just have to be creative:thepimp:

[Pat T.®]

Originally posted by putty
im of the opinion that armouring and ladders can still be fun to ride. look at the ladders i built at the top of pangor, they are over a swamp, and I have paved it, but everyone that hits the berms has a shit eating grin coming out. you just have to be creative:thepimp:

You got that right man, that stuff on Pangor is some sweet woodwork. When I was up there for the trailday everyone who walked by them had very positive things to say....so that's a good thing. Armoring is way better than riding in deep sloggy ruts, plus it lets you ride a good solid trail almost year round.

[Putty]

Originally posted by Pat T.®
You got that right man, that stuff on Pangor is some sweet woodwork. When I was up there for the trailday everyone who walked by them had very positive things to say....so that's a good thing. Armoring is way better than riding in deep sloggy ruts, plus it lets you ride a good solid trail almost year round.

Thanks man...it becomes a different type of trail for sure (than old school low volume trails), but it is still fun IMO.

[T-bone]

Originally posted by Couch_Surfer
I'll agree with you on this point. They are all valid aspects of the same sport. However, I think we need to look at what comes from an increase in shuttling under a more critical eye before saying "Give 'er Dude! Open the yellow gate and let the shuttles go."

I definitely don't think they should EVER open the yellow gate to shuttlers.....however, if there was a chair lift on Fromme, I'm sure people would still ride up instead of paying for the lift. If the actuall "riding down" was free, and you only had to pay for the lift, then of course alot of us would still ride up...I would.

Shuttling has a place in the community - hell, I like a good shuttle now and then. But I don't think we need to turn the sport into an all shuttle recreation. People can learn to ride up a mountain here and there. You wanna shuttle? Fine. There is Seymour, Whistler and Cypress. 3 out of 4? pretty good odds by anyone's standards.... and.... all you have to do to get to the trails on the fourth is ride up. Status Quo is good enough. Keeps the volume of riders on Fromme to a manageable level if they don't want to do the <cough cough> work of riding up.

You're right, I don't think EVERY hill should have shuttle access either. I like Fromme and the fact that there's almost nobody up there each time I go. I also like hitting up Seymour sometimes too though. So yeah, the variety is good to have and maintain in our sport......

Trail Maintenance funding problems? Convince the city that we aren't a bunch of pricks and that there is a benefit in funding maintenance. Try looking to other sources - corporate sponsership? "Mountain Dew fuels Air Supply"; "The GM Pipeline"... ok maybe that's not the best idea i've ever had...


:D "The GM Pipeline" :D That's a good one......but it could actually work!

And as for Ned's becoming a race track for ediquettly challenged riders........if we did have proper funding, and therefore fully maintained trails, there wouldn't be guys flying down Ned's because we'd have trails built for their purposes and then trails built for the beginers.

I guess the biggest problem we're facing right now is proper funding and establishment of the sport. Once we get those 2, we're cruisin'!!!!!

[T-bone]

Originally posted by switch
People might not like to hear it, but the future of mountain biking on a mountain like Seymour is armoured trails. It is impossible to have "old school" trails when you get the traffic we're seeing now. Change is inevitable. For those who do not like change, there will be bitching. For those that can handle it, there will be new adventures.

I agree. "Natural" trails aren't going to withstand the abuse of the amount of riders that are currently hitting Seymour. I myself don't really mind armoured trails that much. I mean, you're still riding over rocks and dirt and chopped up cedar even though it's been man made.......it's still loads of fun!

And it would be nice to see some figures on the numbers of hikers vs. number of bikers on Seymour. The local governments should recognize the change in usage without fearing it.

That's a huge point. Not only are there probably more bikers right now but we're also a bigger part of current economy than the hikers.....on account of all the equipment and beer we buy!

We really are no different than any other sport out there.....we're just not fully established yet. Just like every other sport before us.....we're going to have to go through these changes before everything runs smoothly.

[T-bone]

Originally posted by putty
Thanks man...it becomes a different type of trail for sure (than old school low volume trails), but it is still fun IMO.

As I said above.........I agree with ya that armoured trails are just as fun. The part of biking I love the most is being able to play on something that feels sorta like an obstacle course. With all the ladders and rock work and stuff like that it's perfect.

Nice work on Pangor putty :thepimp:

[Pat T.®]

So T-Bone tell us how you really feel.... :lol:

[T-bone]

Originally posted by Pat T.®
So T-Bone tell us how you really feel.... :lol:

Ok, Ok, I'll stop now........:rolleyes: