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View Full Version : OHVs allowed in parks...could your riding place be next?




HIBuLlitT
03-21-2010, 07:51 PM
So there is a big push to get the CRD to change their bylaws and allow OHV's at Harbourview (and Broomhill to a lesser extent). This movement has the support of the Sooke mayor and the mayor of Metchosin. After a few years of
fighting and going through the process, we were weeks away from getting this designated a bike park (like the dump
but with hiking too). Now the OHV group with support from some CRD staff have tabled it and are looking to "review"
the park, which could mean a few more years of going through the "process".

Then end result will be quads and MX's on mtb trails. Even now with the gate closed and posted "no motorized vehicles"
OHVs have been ripping up quite a bit of our trails. If the gates are open, you can say goodbye to these trails. We need
the support of anyone, and if you guys could find the time to write a letter, it would help. Of importance is mentioning
that you would no longer want to come to our city to ride bike and SPEND MONEY in Sooke if there's no place to ride without
OHVs.

This is the groups FB page: http://www.facebook.com/home.php?#!/group.php?gid=236921441704

Some of the destruction they cause:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OAZQmZLQh24&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PA2riobDu3E&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JzopsdvLMGk&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_5nHSv_Hugo&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=918wfWEyd1Y&feature=related



If you need talking points:

FOR MTBing:
*Health benefits of MTBing
*Low impact/footprint
-http://www.imba.com/resources/science/trail_shock.html
-http://www.imba.com/resources/science/marion_wimpey_2007.html
*History of trail maintenance volunteering
*Involving youngsters will help reduce drug use
-http://www.ehow.com/way_5325092_drug-prevention-young-children.html

AGAINST OHV's:
*Habitat destruction
-http://www.glorietamesa.org/ohv-orv-facts-sheet.php
-http://www.dnr.state.mn.us/ohvdamageaccount/index.html (it's so bad in Minnesota they have a state fund to pay land owners for damage).
-http://www.glorietamesa.org/in-the-news.php
*Noise (many OHV's don't have good muffler systems)
*Dangerous to hikers and bikers (high speeds, vehicle traffic where people are hiking)
*Displace wildlife
*If they open the HV road, how much will it cost to maintain it with all the extra
traffic?


Contact information (BE POLITE, CURSING AND ANGER WILL NOT HELP):
(CRD staff) http://www.crd.bc.ca/about/board/directors/index.htm
(Sooke council and mayor) http://www.sooke.ca/EN/main/contacts/feedback.php

The OHV people argue that they have no place to ride...not true, they have WAY more places
to OHV than we do to ride a bike or hike.

Examples:
Stamp Mountain
Boneyard main
Butler main
Neild road motorbike club property
Jordan River trials trails
Olifant lk
Burnt bridge
Bamberton
Emerald forest (west Shawnigan)
Western Speedway dirt bike track
...these are just the ones I know about, I don't OHV.

If the CRD allows OHVs in parks, this could have implications throughout the province.
This would set a precedent for other local, federal and provincial land managers.

Please help.




drummer_dil
03-21-2010, 08:45 PM
kids will do drugs with or without vehicles in parks

HIBuLlitT
03-21-2010, 08:55 PM
kids will do drugs with or without vehicles in parks

Yeah, their point is that everything else is so boring so if they can't do OHV stuff
they'll do drugs.

juan
03-21-2010, 09:27 PM
This is a tough one to call. It was a recreation area before it was a park afterall. Just no official title.
You can thank the OHV crowd for putting in many of the trails out there. I am aware that a large number of MTB specific trails have been built as well. That is great. I enjoy riding those trails.
The Harborview area has some of the best 4x4 trails in the Pacific NW. People were coming from all over North America to test themselves and their equipment. They are a user group, just like MTB that is being pushed out farther and farther.
I know as a mountain biker, I do not care to ride on bike paths like the goose. So to look at it from an off roader perspective I would not be thrilled to drive up and down logging roads.
There are bad apples in all groups. There are also responsible users as well.
I remember the Island Rock Crawlers doing massive clean ups out there, taking out tons of garbage.
Maybe all user groups could come together on this one
It would be great to have a true Multi-use recreation area out there.
The trail system is in place already. Why not use it.
just my 2cents

HIBuLlitT
03-21-2010, 09:44 PM
The need for a non-motorized park area is huge. There are very few hiking and
biking options in the Sooke area. There are lots of areas to OHV. Sooke is in dire
need of a economy, and OHV isn't going to cover it all. Sooke is prime to be a destination
not just some place people drive through to get to the west coast trail. Fishing
charters are starting to fill that bill and there's ziplines...but, we need to bring in
the families and with the opening of the new hotel(s), there will be a need for hiking
and outdoor recreation without fear of being run over by some punk on a quad.

Yes "some" of the trails we ride on were made by mx's, but most were made by us. Access was created by the logging companies.

By fighting for this one area they are loosing support for their other fights out
toward JR. If they're such a good user group, why is it that the logging companies don't want them on their land anymore? Liability? Destruction of roads? Trash?

juan
03-21-2010, 09:52 PM
The logging companies do not want anyone out there period. It is not just the OHV crowd that is doing the damage. Enviro activists hiking in and torching equipment. Mount bikers cutting down trees. Hikers straying off trail.
No off roading is not going to turn Sookes economy around. Sookes future is based on being a suburb of a growing Victoria.
The point I am trying to make is that the Harborview area is HUGE!!!! The trails are in place. Why go and put new trails in farther out in Jordan river? There are an abundance of Hiking trails between Vic and Port Renfrew. Juan de Fuca, Kludak and it's off shoots, East Sooke Park. West coast trail. And many smaller ones.
I would just like to see a true Multi use area where all user groups can be accommidated and work together.

Adam West
03-21-2010, 10:14 PM
I dont think HV should be multi use, I think they should open butler main though. other than that there really is alot of places for ohv (boyds, J.R, Shawnigan etc.)
a ohv park would be great just not at harbour view with all the dog walkers, hikers and Mtbs on the road adding motorcycles that will just fly by without consideration and trucks will be accidents waiting to happen

juan
03-21-2010, 10:20 PM
I do agree that there would be some conflict especially between MX and hikers.
I would like to see a sign in sign out type system, kinda like what you have up and down the island. Plate numbers, Bike vin, etc.. Where you are going. Monitor the access points. Truly manage the area and what is happening within it. To a certain degree

Wayne P
03-21-2010, 10:25 PM
Its good for each group to have their own areas to play in without other user groups interfering.

Don't get high and mighty like hikers vs mountain bikers when talking about dirtbike users. In this town dirtbike users are far and away more responsible for their actions than mountain bikers are. I'm very involved in both groups so I see both sides.

Your needs as a mountain biker are no more important than anyone else's. Posting up "anti-" propaganda does nothing for your cause but make your cause look elitist.

Mud bogging is the difficult one because of the massive amount of damage, but those guys need a playground too.

juan
03-21-2010, 10:30 PM
I do not think anyone is getting high and mighty Wayne. I also ride MX and hike and mountain bike. Out here on the island the main conflicts are between hikers, mtb, mx and quadtards. That is the reality.

enduramil
03-21-2010, 11:58 PM
Its good for each group to have their own areas to play in without other user groups interfering.

Don't get high and mighty like hikers vs mountain bikers when talking about dirtbike users. In this town dirtbike users are far and away more responsible for their actions than mountain bikers are. I'm very involved in both groups so I see both sides.

Your needs as a mountain biker are no more important than anyone else's. Posting up "anti-" propaganda does nothing for your cause but make your cause look elitist.

Mud bogging is the difficult one because of the massive amount of damage, but those guys need a playground too.

^This.

Out here get the same. Funnily enough had some help placing a log by a couple of dirtbikers today. And they don't even ride the trails- just the doubletrack. Don't expect that from mtbers much.

But the reality is. Thanks to the Big Iron shoot out incident expect all users to come under scrutiny. And expect everyone to be effected by the fall out.

Adam West
03-22-2010, 12:03 AM
i wonder how people would feel if it were fromme that would be the area in consideration for ohv "multi use" area

HIBuLlitT
03-22-2010, 02:50 AM
The point I am trying to make is that the Harborview area is HUGE!!!! The trails are in place. Why go and put new trails in farther out in Jordan river? There are an abundance of Hiking trails between Vic and Port Renfrew. Juan de Fuca, Kludak and it's off shoots, East Sooke Park. West coast trail. And many smaller ones.
I would just like to see a true Multi use area where all user groups can be accommidated and work together.

There's no issues with MTBin out JR way, nor do the logging co's bitch about hikers
out that way. They have singled out OHVs, so I ask why? Not conjecture, why after
allowing it for so long have they expressed a desire to get them out (not that
they're trying that hard).

There's no need to cut NEW trails out there, they are already there. The people
wanting OHVs at HV from the CRD should be petitioning the District to have official
access to the land west of there.

This is a bad fight, for a area that we (mountain bikers) need desperately.



Its good for each group to have their own areas to play in without other user groups interfering.

Don't get high and mighty like hikers vs mountain bikers when talking about dirtbike users. In this town dirtbike users are far and away more responsible for their actions than mountain bikers are. I'm very involved in both groups so I see both sides.

Your needs as a mountain biker are no more important than anyone else's. Posting up "anti-" propaganda does nothing for your cause but make your cause look elitist.

Mud bogging is the difficult one because of the massive amount of damage, but those guys need a playground too.

I just posted all the posts I could find of off-roading in Sooke. That's it, all that
footage was taken in the last year when it was illegal to ride. This is indicative
of the OHV population out this way. While there is a small percentage of OHV
users out here that will/have helped to clean up...most of that clean up has been
the result of OHV users. Riding through streams that feed salmon spawning grounds
with your truck or quad is bad.

If we could open HV road to allow access to Shields lake and beyond and keep
OHVs off of MTB and hiking trails I'd say lets do it. The reality is that the "small"
group that will go where they want (mt Quimper, Sooke mountain, Potholes area)
will do so much damage we will not be able to keep up let alone improve the
area for MTBing and hiking, dog walking etc.

Self policing may work where you live Wayne, but they have shown little ability to
do that over here.

HIBuLlitT
03-22-2010, 02:51 AM
i wonder how people would feel if it were fromme that would be the area in consideration for ohv "multi use" area

Why not, if they can open this park to OHVs why not Fromme or Cypress?

juan
03-22-2010, 03:17 AM
I just got back from a ride up in Duncan on Mt Tzeouhalem. We encountered a couple of trials motorbikers. We were talking about this same topic.
The Zoo is supposed to be non motorized and biking and hiking only. I feel that if the two guys we saw are riding responsibly then I am not going to jump on a soapbox and start WWIII.
The people I have talked to about squamish, who live there are saying good things about the trials guys on MTB trails. Maybe we can work together.
I can also see the point that some are making about cypress or fromme. And it is valid.
I just think that the area in question out in sooke is so vast, it could work there.
On a side note, the Zoo was wicked today:grinno:

Wayne P
03-22-2010, 03:26 AM
I don't doubt anyone's experiences, but I would like to always make the point in these threads that most motorized off road users are not the enemy nor are irresponsible.

And believe me when I lived in North Van I felt somewhat anti-moto, probably because I wasn't exposed to it being in the little bubble that mountain biking is there.

juan
03-22-2010, 04:10 AM
I don't doubt anyone's experiences, but I would like to always make the point in these threads that most motorized off road users are not the enemy nor are irresponsible.

And believe me when I lived in North Van I felt somewhat anti-moto, probably because I wasn't exposed to it being in the little bubble that mountain biking is there.

It is a good point wayne.
The common enemy all user groups share is ignorance and miseducation.

legionnair
03-22-2010, 04:16 AM
On another forum I posted for motorized vehicles, having a background in both mtb, quading, and motorcycles and got scorned and quite a bit of hate thrown my way. I try to see all points of view. Heres my take Harbour View is a very vast area it could support a multi-use trail system. I understand some people feel like if motorized use is allowed them all there trails will be gone. As I said on the other forum and I will repeat if you want your trails to be safe from motorized riders then you have to make filters so quads and 4x4 cant get into them.
I think a multi-use area is a great idea for sooke it will bring alot people out to see the sooke hills.
Let the hate begin

pedalhound
03-22-2010, 06:42 AM
I think I have already seen trails that were built by MTB'ers out in sooke get pretty messed up by quads, that is not cool. Period.

I have no issues with people out riding moto's or 4x4...but when you start messing up other users trails...that's just not ok behavior. If all users can respect the others users right to be there and their trails then I have no problem.... but since it is obvious in those video's that some users do not share that same philosophy....we'll that's the issue.

I see other areas like up at doumont in Nanaimo where OHV users and other users share the area and there is garbage all over the place...broken glass...just crap dumped...it's not a good situation. Is that how we want the sooke hills?

OHV users do have more area than MTB...all that has happened for us lately is area after area being lost to developments and golf courses....so now the only totaly legal place we have to ride in the victoria area is hartland...I love hartland but we need more area to ride.

I know that the OHV community had this area taken away and are pissed off about it, but the CRD parks mandate is no vehicles in their parks, it will be interesting if this group can change that....it will open up all of their parks, quite the shitstorm IMO.

Aeropusher
03-22-2010, 06:55 AM
..I see other areas like up at doumont in Nanaimo where OHV users and other users share the area and there is garbage all over the place...broken glass...just crap dumped...it's not a good situation. Is that how we want the sooke hills?...

...the area around duomont has been like that for a long long time...dumping crap and partying out there has established itself in the fabric of nanaimo's *culture*...you cant pin the blame for that mess on the area's recreation users....it's the asshats who don't want to pay 5bucks at a transfer station or aren't willing to spend an extra 15 minutes driving out to the landfill



btw: not agreeing with what happens out there...I've called in the plate numbers of quite a few people....

strahan
03-22-2010, 07:16 AM
if you want your trails to be safe from motorized riders then you have to make filters so quads and 4x4 cant get into them.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_CoYXp8Bm-4

check out 4:21. exactly how do you "filter" out quads when people take this kind of action?

by the way, this video is all in the area proposed to be a park, now being considered as open to OHVs.

DarylMac
03-22-2010, 10:06 PM
What does OHV stand for? Off-road ___ Vehicle?

Oldfart
03-22-2010, 10:16 PM
OHV = Off Highway Vehicle. The Motor Vehicle Act defines highway includes pretty much anywhere a car goes. Therefore off highway doesn't mean just slow vehicles.

Bryce
03-22-2010, 11:46 PM
...the area around duomont has been like that for a long long time...dumping crap and partying out there has established itself in the fabric of nanaimo's *culture*...you cant pin the blame for that mess on the area's recreation users....it's the asshats who don't want to pay 5bucks at a transfer station or aren't willing to spend an extra 15 minutes driving out to the landfill

true, but if the gate is open, its open to anyone, asshats included. And Doumont is really gross.

I'd support separate playgrounds, not mixed use

legionnair
03-23-2010, 01:30 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_CoYXp8Bm-4

check out 4:21. exactly how do you "filter" out quads when people take this kind of action?

by the way, this video is all in the area proposed to be a park, now being considered as open to OHVs.

I great filter is a suspended log(at least 2.5ft in the air) or 2 logs in the form of an "X"at the top of a short hill or in a tight area. If you strip the logs then paint them yellow. This type of filter will keep 99% of OHV out esp. quads and 4x4. Now there is the ass hats like you showed in the video does not matter if it is park, gated, or filters are in place they will get around. That is why I support plates for OHV's to identify and report abusers.

heres why I support an area either Harbour view or else where for muti-use is because if you allow an area closer to the users then they will be less likely to ride in MTB/hiking areas. Alot of them the idiots mostly are to lazy to travel the distance to areas where they are allowed.

As stated above we have lost alot of riding areas in and around Victoria but alot of those areas were lost because we were riding on private land and the owner/property managers sold the property. This is the case with skirt(Millstream rd) and Nield Rd.

enduramil
03-23-2010, 04:15 AM
This is what they use in the UK to deal with them.
http://i557.photobucket.com/albums/ss19/Endurimil/HPIM0330.jpg

HIBuLlitT
03-23-2010, 04:34 AM
The problem is access points. We would need a fence a few miles long on either side of the road. These guys will just mow down the smaller trees with their
quads and go around anything we put in. They are like bed bugs, creepy and hard to
get rid of once there.

strahan
03-23-2010, 04:35 AM
for the record, i support OHVs having a place to recreate. However, the nature of the vehicles (noise, damage to tread surface, speed, etc) and the type of people often attracted to them (garbage, drinking, destruction, etc) means they can't play in the same space as other users.

Yes this is a stereotype. But this is the reality. OHVs should not be allowed in Harbourview.

Adam West
03-23-2010, 04:37 AM
for the record, i support OHVs having a place to recreate. However, the nature of the vehicles (noise, damage to tread surface, speed, etc) and the type of people often attracted to them (garbage, drinking, destruction, etc) means they can't play in the same space as other users.

Yes this is a stereotype. But this is the reality. OHVs should not be allowed in Harbourview.

Exactly.

legionnair
03-23-2010, 04:50 AM
The problem is access points. We would need a fence a few miles long on either side of the road. These guys will just mow down the smaller trees with their
quads and go around anything we put in. They are like bed bugs, creepy and hard to
get rid of once there.

Again why I believe Harbour view is going to be a never ending fight against OHV's because there is access from so many different places and the area so vast you will never be able to keep them out. So why not allow them but set up trail systems clearly marked for each user.

I hate when people blame OHV's users for bringing in garbage and drinking. Do not make this sterotype it just spreads ingornace. How about talking with the reponsible users and learn that we pay for insurance for our vehicles and the insurance has Zero tolerance against alcohol. Also alot of groups go out on clean up rides.

Looks like we will see what happens. I support the multi-use area but do not think it will get passed.

enduramil
03-23-2010, 04:55 AM
I hate when people blame OHV's users for bringing in garbage and drinking. Do not make this sterotype it just spreads ingornace. How about talking with the reponsible users and learn that we pay for insurance for our vehicles and the insurance has Zero tolerance against alcohol. Also alot of groups go out on clean up rides.





Having interacted alot in the last 2 years with dirtbikers out here. I agree with Wayne P, they are way better people then we give them credit for.

pedalhound
03-23-2010, 04:58 AM
http://simbs.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2603

HIBuLlitT
03-23-2010, 05:08 AM
Again why I believe Harbour view is going to be a never ending fight against OHV's because there is access from so many different places and the area so vast you will never be able to keep them out. So why not allow them but set up trail systems clearly marked for each user.

I hate when people blame OHV's users for bringing in garbage and drinking. Do not make this sterotype it just spreads ingornace. How about talking with the reponsible users and learn that we pay for insurance for our vehicles and the insurance has Zero tolerance against alcohol. Also alot of groups go out on clean up rides.

Looks like we will see what happens. I support the multi-use area but do not think it will get passed.

The area is not as "vast" as it would seem compared to the areas that OHVs have
access to already. I think what you and all of the other OHV in HV people are missing
is that we want a place that is peaceful. Why aren't you guys going after the west
coast trail? That was logged to no end too. OHVs and hiking and biking are a
bad mix.
No...the OHVs don't think so because they don't mind the ripped up trails and the
noise they put out or the smoke and smog.

If the OHVs want the areas to the west of Sooke, I'll be 100% behind them.
HV is not a good place,m laziness is not a good excuse.

As far as talking to "responsible" users. I have, and they acknowledge there is a
bad element that is in their midst. There is a bad element in the MTB community
as well. The difference is that the amount of damage to a trail caused by a quad
or mx roosting would take 100 bikers weeks if not months to do.

We don't allow people to ride bikes with studded tires on ice rinks, nor do we
allow 4X4's on soccer fields. The two activities do not mix. It may work in areas
that are dry with a hard clay base, but not HV. I've seen the damage, and the
videos speak for themselves.

BTW, if anyone finds any of the videos got pulled down, let me know I've d/led
them and can post them on youtube.

Wayne P
03-23-2010, 05:09 AM
for the record, i support OHVs having a place to recreate. However, the nature of the vehicles (noise, damage to tread surface, speed, etc) and the type of people often attracted to them (garbage, drinking, destruction, etc) means they can't play in the same space as other users.

Yes this is a stereotype. But this is the reality. OHVs should not be allowed in Harbourview.

Fuck, I hate it when people make that generalization. That is so far from the truth it isn't even funny. The number one garbage throwers in my experience has been mountain bikers, bar none. How's that for a generalization?

Maybe its just Kamloops, but you should see the garbage in our mtb riding areas. Shit, there's a frickin' tent thrown in the bushes at the top of the Ranch from 3 little twerps who camped out about a month ago. What about the random tubes in trees? Did pixies put those there?

I have yet to find one single piece of garbage in a moto staging area (and we have a lot) caused by OHV users. If you were involved in the off road moto scene you would see how much those people care about their riding areas.

I would even go as far as to say quadtards litter less than mountain bikers.

Man some of you sound like hikers talking generalizations about mountain bikers.

Adam West
03-23-2010, 05:12 AM
Fuck, I hate it when people make that generalization. That is so far from the truth it isn't even funny. The number one garbage throwers in my experience has been mountain bikers, bar none. How's that for a generalization?

Maybe its just Kamloops, but you should see the garbage in our mtb riding areas. Shit, there's a frickin' tent thrown in the bushes at the top of the Ranch from 3 little twerps who camped out about a month ago. What about the random tubes in trees? Did pixies put those there?

I have yet to find one single piece of garbage in a moto staging area (and we have a lot) caused by OHV users. If you were involved in the off road moto scene you would see how much those people care about their riding areas.

I would even go as far as to say quadtards litter less than mountain bikers.

Man some of you sound like hikers talking generalizations about mountain bikers.

Need i remind you that this is sooke we are talking about..
just sayin.

Wayne P
03-23-2010, 05:21 AM
Kamloops.... Sooke.... is there really a difference? ;)

enduramil
03-23-2010, 05:22 AM
Fuck, I hate it when people make that generalization. That is so far from the truth it isn't even funny. The number one garbage throwers in my experience has been mountain bikers, bar none. How's that for a generalization?

Maybe its just Kamloops, but you should see the garbage in our mtb riding areas. Shit, there's a frickin' tent thrown in the bushes at the top of the Ranch from 3 little twerps who camped out about a month ago. What about the random tubes in trees? Did pixies put those there?

I have yet to find one single piece of garbage in a moto staging area (and we have a lot) caused by OHV users. If you were involved in the off road moto scene you would see how much those people care about their riding areas.

I would even go as far as to say quadtards litter less than mountain bikers.

Man some of you sound like hikers talking generalizations about mountain bikers.

Did you cut and paste this from an earlier thread?

enduramil
03-23-2010, 05:22 AM
Kamloops.... Sooke.... is there really a difference? ;)

One smells of fish and one smells of Steer Manure.

pedalhound
03-23-2010, 06:11 AM
The MTB crowd here tends to be a little cleaner....at least by my observation. The only area that I have seen a lot of shit on the ground has been at dirt jumps...and I think thats mostly just the age of the average jumper...and the lack of any garbage facilities.

But just about every area I have been where 4x4 and moto's use it heavily tends to have broken crap all over the place...garbage and all that kind of stuff. I dunno...just thinking out loud here.

strahan
03-23-2010, 06:22 AM
Fuck, I hate it when people make that generalization. That is so far from the truth it isn't even funny. The number one garbage throwers in my experience has been mountain bikers, bar none. How's that for a generalization?
You conveniently chose to address the only issue by which you have any footing, garbage.

All users unfortunately pollute. In my experience in order of most-to-least users that bring/leave garbage:
- 4x4s (by far the worst, and includes bicycle shuttles)
- quads
- moto / bicycle / hiker (all pretty even, but low)

I've personally been roosted by gravel by a passing moto in the area in question. Noise, speed, damage to trail surface, and incompatibilty with other users => No OHVs in Harbourview.

Dantes Inferno
03-23-2010, 08:38 AM
Why not try to co-operate and both sides work together. Im sure theres lots of mtb people who are part of the mud slinging crowd aswell.

legionnair
03-23-2010, 02:14 PM
Why not try to co-operate and both sides work together. Im sure theres lots of mtb people who are part of the mud slinging crowd aswell.

Its easier said than done I'm afraid most MTB's around these parts are as uptight towards the moto crowd as hikers are towards MTBer's. One of Victorias major problems is the rifts between the different types of users.

HIBuLlitT
03-23-2010, 06:18 PM
Its easier said than done I'm afraid most MTB's around these parts are as uptight towards the moto crowd as hikers are towards MTBer's. One of Victorias major problems is the rifts between the different types of users.

I could say that the OHVs are as uptight as any redneck southern US state about
their "right" to go "anywhere I want".

The problem is that OHVs are not conducive to a park. Hiking and biking (not shuttling
mind you) are not compatible with the noise, speed and damage that OHVs bring
with them (no matter how "responsible" they think they are).

I have yet to see one comment from a biker that isn't advocating a place for OHVs.
WE ALL want a place for the OHVs to go, just not in a park. I find it absurd that we
are even having this conversation. It would be like arguing to be allowed to open
a gun range in a soccer field. Most gun owners are responsible, there's only a few
yahoos that will get drunk and shoot.

Wayne P
03-23-2010, 08:43 PM
I could say that the OHVs are as uptight as any redneck southern US state about
their "right" to go "anywhere I want".

The problem is that OHVs are not conducive to a park. Hiking and biking (not shuttling
mind you) are not compatible with the noise, speed and damage that OHVs bring
with them (no matter how "responsible" they think they are).

I have yet to see one comment from a biker that isn't advocating a place for OHVs.
WE ALL want a place for the OHVs to go, just not in a park. I find it absurd that we
are even having this conversation. It would be like arguing to be allowed to open
a gun range in a soccer field. Most gun owners are responsible, there's only a few
yahoos that will get drunk and shoot.

My god man, you generalize more than I do.

Tom P
03-23-2010, 09:08 PM
The motorized crowd would be further ahead if they worked on developing their own OHV parks/areas and realised multi-use (moto & non-moto) trails won't work.

One of the comments posted on a local 4x4 forum recently re: mtb trails was "a bike trail becomes a quad trail becomes a 4x4 trail, deal with it"

I'd be for supporting OHV parks as long as they don't impact mtb singletrack and I don't have to listen to their noise pollution.

Wayne P
03-23-2010, 09:14 PM
Yea I can't see how motorized and non-motorized could possibly work in the same area unless it was regularly patrolled.

Up here on Greenstone we have a couple of mountain bike trails mixed in with probably a few hundred kms of pseudo-managed moto trails and it seems to work well.... but those mtb trails are adopted moto trails anyway. There is definite inclusion going on there.

The nice thing about Kamloops is that you don't see a lot of high volume 4x4 drivers trying to access trails. I know it happens, but most often they stick to the logging roads and double track.

We have so many legal moto trails that go deep into the back country that problems are rare.

Tom P
03-23-2010, 09:26 PM
The nice thing about Kamloops is that you don't see a lot of high volume 4x4 drivers trying to access trails. I know it happens, but most often they stick to the logging roads and double track.

On the island the 4x4 conflicts are not with the mud bogging crowd, but the rock crawlers. I've learned they are 2 fairly distinct user groups. The conflict arises as we (mtb'ers) and rock crawlers both enjoy steep rocky technical terrain, and if the bluffs are suitable for bikes, then chances are a truck can get up there as well.

For some reason they are drawn to areas with singletrack lines, likely because they are too lazy to scout ahead off a trail. Even when they veer off the mtb line for a 100m they always seem to end up back on the trail. There has been significant damage on Forbidden Plateau the last couple years due to rock crawlers poaching mtb lines.

Bryce
03-23-2010, 09:39 PM
http://mckenziefriend.ca/13701.html?action=result

don't forget to vote in the poll, its currently at 65% 'keep the gate locked'

HIBuLlitT
03-23-2010, 09:40 PM
My god man, you generalize more than I do.

If you read the first sentence was without the serious amount of sarcasm you're
getting slow in your old age.

If I go into a park with a boombox on my shoulder rolling a barrel of burning oil
behind me, I'd be fined. Why is it so different with a OHV in a park?

duga
03-23-2010, 11:44 PM
HV Mtn was one of the best places I had the privilege to ride last year. Opening it up to motors would destroy much of it, there is no doubt. It just takes one quadtard to undo a years worth of MTB trail work.

Those GD machines are just terra-grinders and the quadtard knows just full brakes and full throttle, in my experrience.

Wayne P
03-24-2010, 12:00 AM
[QUOTE=HIBuLlitT;2338589
If I go into a park with a boombox on my shoulder rolling a barrel of burning oil
behind me, I'd be fined. Why is it so different with a OHV in a park?[/QUOTE]

ahahaha.... I hope you never drive a car or fly in an airplane or someone might call you a hypocrite. Does your shit smell like flowers too?

HIBuLlitT
03-24-2010, 12:10 AM
ahahaha.... I hope you never drive a car or fly in an airplane or someone might call you a hypocrite. Does your shit smell like flowers too?

Are you always so defensive? Is it that hard to accept ONE fucking place without
the noise of a OHV? NO ONE is saying we want to deny access to OHVs in Sooke, just
Harborview. The OHV seen has lots of places to ride, we don't. I like to go off road in
my truck too, but I also don't want to do it in a park. They CAN coexist in SOME
areas, this is not one of them.

I don't think I should be allowed to ride my bike on the west coast trail, I wouldn't
want to have bikes on that trail if I was hiking it. Sometimes you just want a
different thing.
Why is that so fucking hard for most of you OHV diehards to understand? Has the
CO gotten to your brain cells?

I'm not some fucking left wing nutjob vanderman type hippie loving flower wearing
fucktard. I like guns, I like 4x4ing, I like shuttling, but I also like hiking and freeriding.

Wayne P
03-24-2010, 12:52 AM
Whoa take a chill pill captain grumpy. I thought what I said was kinda funny. For the record, I'm making general statements and nothing is directed towards HV park or co-existing. If you don't like what's going on then try to turn it into a fenced bicycle park, patrolled by by-laws officers. But whatever, that's your issue not mine.

I would, however, like to point out how goofy this statement is, once again:

"If I go into a park with a boombox on my shoulder rolling a barrel of burning oil
behind me, I'd be fined. Why is it so different with a OHV in a park?"

Seriously man. I'm the one with some missing brain cells?

:P

Brother Lu
03-24-2010, 04:42 AM
Are you always so defensive? Is it that hard to accept ONE fucking place without
the noise of a OHV? NO ONE is saying we want to deny access to OHVs in Sooke, just
Harborview. The OHV seen has lots of places to ride, we don't. I like to go off road in
my truck too, but I also don't want to do it in a park. They CAN coexist in SOME
areas, this is not one of them.

I don't think I should be allowed to ride my bike on the west coast trail, I wouldn't
want to have bikes on that trail if I was hiking it. Sometimes you just want a
different thing.
Why is that so fucking hard for most of you OHV diehards to understand? Has the
CO gotten to your brain cells?

I'm not some fucking left wing nutjob vanderman type hippie loving flower wearing
fucktard. I like guns, I like 4x4ing, I like shuttling, but I also like hiking and freeriding.
Well said.I sure hope to ride mountain bikes with you one day:clap:

Rat
03-24-2010, 04:47 AM
Vedder is a pretty good example of all groups getting along. mostly because everyone has their own trails.

why would I ride my moto on the mtb bike trail when there is a better moto trail.


of course the real shit heads arnt the 4x4 crowd or the moto or quad crowd but the never ending supply of douchbags who go up there to drink and well be douchebags.

pedalhound
03-24-2010, 06:28 AM
The thing is this is not just...any land....its parkland.

Help us out by signing the petition...

http://www.petitiononline.com/not4ohv/petition.html

Ned
03-24-2010, 09:55 PM
enjoy steep rocky technical terrain, and if the bluffs are suitable for bikes, then chances are a truck can get up there as well.

For some reason they are drawn to areas with singletrack lines, likely because they are too lazy to scout ahead off a trail. Even when they veer off the ... line for a 100m they always seem to end up back on the trail. There has been significant damage ... the last couple years due to rock crawlers poaching mtb lines.

Reiter trails to a T, context = Gold Bar WA. A classic ST and trials moto haven that's been over-run by the tardlingers to the point of being shut down and mired in politics as it's getting overhauled and agenda'd to death by the *cough* stakeholders - funny how the horsey's, hikers, climbers and MTBr's have circled down on top of the kill too. As that's going on the knuckledraggers primarily responsible for the carnage have moved elsewhere and the same pattern emerges.

I like riding my bike on the golf course at the bottom of Seymour at night when I'm in town...

Aside, where'd Mr Can-of-Gas and Mr Matches go? This had the making of a QWERTY war :lol:

enduramil
03-26-2010, 03:45 AM
The MTBr thread,

http://forums.mtbr.com/showthread.php?t=602303

Tom P
03-26-2010, 05:12 AM
The MTBr thread,


man, debating with mtbr folk is like....

legionnair
03-26-2010, 06:20 AM
I think some of the posts are very valid for both sides of the arguement.

But alot of them are just screwing around

Trail Guy
03-26-2010, 06:38 AM
A lot of them just wouldn't believe that someone would intentionally destroy a mountain bike singletrack with a quad. Until they saw the video.

Wayne P
03-26-2010, 06:45 PM
With the quad/4x4 crowd you will get a greater chance of finding those who would willingly destroy singletrack for their own personal gain. Its no surprise that a lot of rednecks don't care, but some simply are not educated on the matter. A little bit of factual info goes a long way and you'd be surprised at their willingness to listen and understand.

But we all know about the bad apples........

Adam West
03-27-2010, 04:42 AM
bad apples ruined my orange juice.

Aeropusher
03-27-2010, 06:33 AM
man, debating with mtbr folk is like....

some form of personal gratification using steel wool??

Trail Guy
03-27-2010, 06:48 AM
some form of personal gratification using steel wool??

Mtbr-debating?

enduramil
03-27-2010, 07:41 AM
man, debating with mtbr folk is like....

Other then the Eastern section and viewing the manufacturer parts. The rest I surf for the amusement factor.

schoenrock
03-27-2010, 09:11 AM
Why not, if they can open this park to OHVs why not Fromme or Cypress?

:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol: :lol::lol::lol:
:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol: :lol::lol::lol:
:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol: :lol::lol::lol:

HIBuLlitT
03-27-2010, 06:15 PM
:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol: :lol::lol::lol:
:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol: :lol::lol::lol:
:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol: :lol::lol::lol:

We thought so too. When brought it to the VIMB board that they were trying to get
a CRD wilderness park opened to OHVs I was laughed at because the thought was
silly. This is exactly what I said in my original thread over there..."Never underestimate
rednecks and hillbillies in large groups with money".


If you want to write a letter to help us out look at the OP. If that's too much trouble
how about signing out petition? http://www.petitiononline.com/not4ohv/petition.html

If you don't agree with our cause, don't sign it or write letters. I was just looking
for some help the same way many of you were asking for help to keep Fromme
open to MTBing and many from around the world wrote, called and did whatever
they could to help.

I know our little mountain isn't as popular as Fromme, but if given a chance, it
can become a destination, the trails will mature, and it will be an option for local
and visitors to the island for a place to ride. We were planning a super-D race
this summer (that's out now), we were in the process of getting permission for
better and bigger TTF's. All of this is on hold. All because of a group of people
that aren't happy with the rest of the island, and they can't stand the fact that
there are a group of people that want something different than they do. We're
not trying to kick them out of the wilderness, we just want a small slice for ourselves.

So while some of you are debating and derailing the thread, those of you that
care about mountain BIKING, please help.

enduramil
03-27-2010, 06:22 PM
We thought so too. When brought it to the VIMB board that they were trying to get
a CRD wilderness park opened to OHVs I was laughed at because the thought was
silly. This is exactly what I said in my original thread over there..."Never underestimate
rednecks and hillbillies in large groups with money".


If you want to write a letter to help us out look at the OP. If that's too much trouble
how about signing out petition? http://www.petitiononline.com/not4ohv/petition.html

If you don't agree with our cause, don't sign it or write letters. I was just looking
for some help the same way many of you were asking for help to keep Fromme
open to MTBing and many from around the world wrote, called and did whatever
they could to help.

I know our little mountain isn't as popular as Fromme, but if given a chance, it
can become a destination, the trails will mature, and it will be an option for local
and visitors to the island for a place to ride. We were planning a super-D race
this summer (that's out now), we were in the process of getting permission for
better and bigger TTF's. All of this is on hold. All because of a group of people
that aren't happy with the rest of the island, and they can't stand the fact that
there are a group of people that want something different than they do. We're
not trying to kick them out of the wilderness, we just want a small slice for ourselves.

So while some of you are debating and derailing the thread, those of you that
care about mountain BIKING, please help.

^this.

And petition signed x 3.

Bryce
03-30-2010, 09:50 PM
LOL at the ATV and 4x ads on the petition

Ha Terrance Martin signed it... WTF? He's the main guy pushing for motorized access

HIBuLlitT
03-30-2010, 10:20 PM
LOL at the ATV and 4x ads on the petition

Ha Terrance Martin signed it... WTF? He's the main guy pushing for motorized access

He probably signed it so that he can deny signing it thus saying it's a bullshit petition.

I found out last night that Terrance Martin is doing his doctoral thesis on media manipulation (and something else). So basically this whole thing is a thesis exercise.

legionnair
03-31-2010, 12:31 AM
Hibullitt

Just to let you know I did sign your petition. The main reason is the fact Terrance stepped out of line attacking Lorien and his shop. I still believe there should be access but not if it means supporting him.

Good Luck

pedalhound
03-31-2010, 12:36 AM
What?

Edit...I see it now...wow, what a douche move.

HIBuLlitT
03-31-2010, 06:33 AM
Hibullitt

Just to let you know I did sign your petition. The main reason is the fact Terrance stepped out of line attacking Lorien and his shop. I still believe there should be access but not if it means supporting him.

Good Luck

I was there and heard his comments...his were very well worded IMO and not attacking
anyone in any way. The lady i the red jacket did attack and very well.

The problem was that while we were all talking the council and the mayor could
have given a shit. Their minds are made up. Terrance is doing his masters or doctoral
thesis on media manipulation.

Thing is that TLC will NEVER allow OHVs on their land EVER. They will sue and sue
and Sooke will pay and pay if the council blocks the park from going through.
CRD can not in any way allow OHVs in even one of it's parks. The implications
will be province wide if not nation wide. There were a lot more against OHVs at
HV than for last night, and this with only a couple weeks to get organized. As
this drags on there will be overwhelming forces acting against Terry Martin.

The big down side to all this is that MTBs may loose out in the end since this
stunt Terrance has pulled is going to bring out the far left hippy types and the
only thing allowed in that area may be people with walking sticks.

legionnair
03-31-2010, 02:38 PM
I was there and heard his comments...his were very well worded IMO and not attacking
anyone in any way. The lady i the red jacket did attack and very well.

The problem was that while we were all talking the council and the mayor could
have given a shit. Their minds are made up. Terrance is doing his masters or doctoral
thesis on media manipulation.

Thing is that TLC will NEVER allow OHVs on their land EVER. They will sue and sue
and Sooke will pay and pay if the council blocks the park from going through.
CRD can not in any way allow OHVs in even one of it's parks. The implications
will be province wide if not nation wide. There were a lot more against OHVs at
HV than for last night, and this with only a couple weeks to get organized. As
this drags on there will be overwhelming forces acting against Terry Martin.

The big down side to all this is that MTBs may loose out in the end since this
stunt Terrance has pulled is going to bring out the far left hippy types and the
only thing allowed in that area may be people with walking sticks.

Have you checked out his facebook page lately

Adam West
03-31-2010, 03:31 PM
me thinks he just wants to win so he can get an A on his report card

Adam West
03-31-2010, 03:50 PM
Have you checked out his facebook page lately

I sigh alot while reading that.

HIBuLlitT
03-31-2010, 06:32 PM
Have you checked out his facebook page lately

Yes, and he lies a lot, twists the truth and in general is insincere. His take on the
meeting was not true, his statements about Lorien were untrue, his assessment
of TLC and CRD are untrue, his agenda (that he shows) changes with the wind based
on the days turn. The only thing that is truthful is his assertion that the council and
mayor are behind this. What he fails to report is that the council has only heard
one side of the story and we hope to change their minds with truth, fact and conviction.
Terry Martin is in a odd position because if he shows overwhelming support for
the OHVs in HV then the impact to the Sooke watershed (which according to Sookes
own assessment is very unique and fragile) and to the fish stocks in the lakes
they want access to will be serious. If he doesn't show enough support then the
council and CRD will think WTF why bother.

We want to show the Sooke council that there are other options available for OHVs
in Sooke other than HV. We want to show that opening lands to OHVs will cost
Sooke a lot of money as the CRD and TLC will fight this and TLC will sue.

The district of Sooke has a lot of land with lakes west of Sooke main that would
be appropriate for OHVs (they're already using it, just not legally) and this would
be supported by the majority of people in Sooke.

What puzzles me is that by bringing all this attention to "his" cause, he is inviting
provincial and national scrutiny to OHVs in this area. The majority of people view
OHVs as bad. Once WCWC, Sierra club get involved, then not only will he not
get HV, he will get resistance for any wilderness activity to be opened to OHVs.
While, as it stands there is support for it, just not in HV.

Wayne P
03-31-2010, 06:44 PM
Media manipulation..... sounds like a candidate for either the US republican party or Faux news!

HIBuLlitT
03-31-2010, 06:53 PM
Media manipulation..... sounds like a candidate for either the US republican party or Faux news!

I thought I got away from that kind of thinking when I left the US. I thought Canadian
rednecks were smarter than that. The only thing missing is them singing the Battle
hymn of the south and wanting the ten commandments to be recited in our schools.

Bryce
03-31-2010, 11:12 PM
I'll wade in... email sent to the Sooke mayor and councillors with lots of pics

enduramil
04-01-2010, 07:49 PM
I thought I got away from that kind of thinking when I left the US. I thought Canadian
rednecks were smarter than that. The only thing missing is them singing the Battle
hymn of the south and wanting the ten commandments to be recited in our schools.

Some points,


- Education does not equal intelligence.

- Access arguments are not based on reality.


Talked to a dirtbiker here in Kingston. One of his buddies he dirtbikes with owes some property just out of town by the hydro lines. In regards to Quads he has a simple policy- signs up as well. Since he has livestock and the quadtards have disturbed them to often he pretty much has signs that say you will be shot on sight. Apparently the Quad guy's stay well clear of his property.

skifreak
04-22-2010, 06:50 AM
Update

http://www.timescolonist.com/travel/road%20vehicles%20allowed%20regional%20parks/2934706/story.html#Comments

enduramil
04-22-2010, 07:04 AM
Thank you.

HIBuLlitT
04-22-2010, 07:59 AM
Update

http://www.timescolonist.com/travel/road%20vehicles%20allowed%20regional%20parks/2934706/story.html#Comments

Yes we had a pretty big victory today, but...

Terry Martin will be petitioning the Sooke council which already has at least 2
members and the mayor (though she did backpedal today a LOT), that think
that they should be allowed in the area. The CRD needs the council to approve
rezoning of this land for park (it's now slated as residential/ag). So they have said
at the last council meeting that they will block the rezoning if CRD doesn't allow
OHVs into the park.

While we may have won a battle, the war is still on.

Something you may not see too much that I think is key was the CRD making
a commitment to work with the Sooke district, Crown and WFP and other forest
companies to get access (legal) for OHVs into the areas west of Sooke river.
This would give OHV's a lot bigger area to recreate that the HV area by a long
shot.

Funny thing is that with all the stink these guys have made, they have brought
so much attention on themselves that now every left wing enviro group will be
watching them like hawks and those guys don't think OHVs belong in ANY wilderness.
So, now they'll have to fight for anything they get, when they could have just
gone the west of Sooke lands with lots of local support and no opposition.

Mike.T
04-22-2010, 02:04 PM
http://www.clubtread.com/sforum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=34645&whichpage=1&SearchTerms=harbourview