Looking for some riding buddies [Archive] - North Shore Mountain Biking Forums

SammyJ

07-18-2008, 12:53 PM

I too have an issue with commercial operations using public trails to conduct for-profit clinics.

Myself and a few friends were riding seymour a few months ago and got run off bridal path (literally run off the path, after trying to avoid oncoming riders) by a group of women engaged in a clinic.

After I picked myself from the crash, they looked at me and tole me that there were more riders after them. Now, I understand that we all have to watch out for each other, and that beginners should be cut some slack. But come on, these girls were giving NO quarter, and acted like the fees they had paid entitled them to act like asshats.

Do they need a permit to do this? If not, they should and access times for clinics should be set to avoid busy times.

rookie_ryda

07-18-2008, 01:08 PM

not all riding groups are for profit.

We're all out there to have fun!

heckler's better 1/2

07-18-2008, 01:31 PM

wow, lots of hate to all the riding groups, don't we all just ride to have fun, like what rookie-ryda says?!

Maybe the bitterness is from having a crash in front of a bunch of girls?

Most of these riding club have been running since April, so any increase in rider on the mtn is most likely from your weekend warriors just out to enjoy the nice weather.

As a club ride leader I can honestly say that we had much larger groups in April and May. Our last few weeks the # of riders have decreased dramatically. People tend to be either away on holidays or are out riding with their friends (non club members).

SammyJ

07-18-2008, 01:46 PM

Sorry if I sound bitter against girls, I really don;t feel that way. Also, I have nothing against group rides.

The problem I have is the sense of entitlement I got from the riders who forced us off the trail. We were riding eastbound on bridal path, prolly 3-4 minutes from old buck. The group was riding westbound. We were moving over as far as we could, and there was plentyl of room to pass if they had moved as well. For one reason or another (likely due to their inexperience) they wouldn't or couldn't move over. We had no choice but to ditch off the trail in order to avoid what would have been a bad head-on collision.

Once we picked up, they just looked and tole us there were more riders to come.

It was clear that they belonged to a commercial group (shall go unnamed) and I felt that they sensed an entitlement to the trail, due to having paid for the clinic time. That 'entitlement' is what frustrates me.

sanrensho

07-18-2008, 02:04 PM

It seems to me that SammyJ's issue is less about group rides than basic trail manners. Something we can all remind ourselves to observe.

sanrensho

07-18-2008, 02:12 PM

As for hating on big group rides--well that's another issue. We all have our preferences for riding in groups or solo/duo.

The shuttlers that passed me on the road up yesterday were almost unfailingly polite (changed lanes completely to pass, no zooming up to me and doing a last minute lane change). It was just very busy last night for a weekend. OTOH, I did the entire descent without a car in front of or behind me, which is always great.

Lady Gravity

07-18-2008, 02:15 PM

It seems to me that SammyJ's issue is less about group rides than basic trail manners. Something we can all remind ourselves to observe.

i agree, trail etiquette does have to be taught after all.

I too have an issue with commercial operations using public trails to conduct for-profit clinics.

sammyJ - granted your rant has slowed down a bit, but i do have a query about this part - just where do you expect these clnics to take place, but on public trails?

bottom line, we're all out to learn and have fun.

heckler

07-18-2008, 02:19 PM

i agree, trail etiquette does have to be taught after all.

something for group ride leaders to keep in mind to mention to newbs...

sanrensho

07-18-2008, 02:19 PM

i agree, trail etiquette does have to be taught after all.

And not to derail this thread more than it is already, but does anyone agree that trail etiquette seems to have become watered down as the number of riders has increased? Fewer riders willing to observe something as basic as "yield to rider up"? Or not even aware of it?

SammyJ

07-18-2008, 02:22 PM

It seems to me that SammyJ's issue is less about group rides than basic trail manners. Something we can all remind ourselves to observe.

Yah, I guess that's the majority of it, you're right.

Another part of it has to do with the commercial aspect though. In all honesty if I had paid good money for a clinic, i would expect to have certain facilities provided. It is an unusual case to have a for-profit clinic sharing public land with the uhhhh, public.

sanrensho

07-18-2008, 02:24 PM

something for group ride leaders to keep in mind to mention to newbs...

Looking at things positively, I would think that (organized) group rides could provide a superb avenue for reinforcing trail/riding etiquette.

In addition to promoting trail responsibility and stewardship, of course.

SammyJ

07-18-2008, 02:29 PM

i agree, trail etiquette does have to be taught after all.

sammyJ - granted your rant has slowed down a bit, but i do have a query about this part - just where do you expect these clnics to take place, but on public trails?

bottom line, we're all out to learn and have fun.

At a bike park I guess, in a perfect world. For example the camps at Whistler and Silverstar. Even on public trails, but not during a busy weekend or holiday, and not in the middle of the day when the trails are at their busiest. it isn't fair to the ppl in the clinic, or the other riders.

cyclist.ca

07-18-2008, 02:33 PM

And not to derail this thread more than it is already, but does anyone agree that trail etiquette seems to have become watered down as the number of riders has increased? Fewer riders willing to observe something as basic as "yield to rider up"? Or not even aware of it?

No one ever told me about "yield to rider up" but it makes sense as I had to dismount on cardiac yesterday because there was a guy rolling down and I couldn't keep a straight line (didn't want to get in his way and yeah I was happy to stop anyways because it was cardiac). It would have been nice if he stopped instead...

sanrensho

07-18-2008, 02:35 PM

Poor Heather, this thread isn't helping her find riding buddies.

Mods, can this thread be split off into a different thread? Before someone deletes it?

sanrensho

07-18-2008, 02:39 PM

No one ever told me about "yield to rider up"

Yeah, it is a lot more difficult for the rider going up to regain their momentum, but no sweat at all for the rider going down. I guess this is something from the XC days, but fewer people seem to be show the same consideration these days.

Lady Gravity

07-18-2008, 02:40 PM

At a bike park I guess, in a perfect world. For example the camps at Whistler and Silverstar. Even on public trails, but not during a busy weekend or holiday, and not in the middle of the day when the trails are at their busiest. it isn't fair to the ppl in the clinic, or the other riders.

i have to be honest with you - i can't ever see that happening, not for local riding clubs/clinics like endless, nsride, or muddbunnies (fwiw endless does do skills clinics at school gravel lots). it's just not feasible both from an economic and convenience standpoint. besides, the terrain at bike parks is nothing like what you will encounter on the shore (or any of the local mountains). and not to say that clinics provided that bike parks are bad in any way, but just that they are "different".

i'm actually kinda surprised at your narrow viewpoint and have to ask - where exactly did you learn how to ride?

SammyJ

07-18-2008, 02:51 PM

i have to be honest with you - i can't ever see that happening, not for local riding clubs/clinics like endless, nsride, or muddbunnies (fwiw endless does do skills clinics at school gravel lots). it's just not feasible both from an economic and convenience standpoint. besides, the terrain at bike parks is nothing like what you will encounter on the shore (or any of the local mountains). and not to say that clinics provided that bike parks are bad in any way, but just that they are "different".

i'm actually kinda surprised at your narrow viewpoint and have to ask - where exactly did you learn how to ride?

I learned by denial and error, like most ppl I know. Believe it or not, there weren't always clinics on the shore ;-)

Seriously, the reason endless is doing clinics at school fields is to provide a controlled environment, no? They can't get that when they have tom dick and harry blasting past them on their 4th ned's lap of the day. I'm just saying...

cyclist.ca

07-18-2008, 02:57 PM

sorry LG, but I think you are wrong. You can learn all you need as a n00b at a bike park, you don't need to be out on the trails. Skinnies - check, steep drops - check, jumps - check and so on. Sure it is good to have someone behind you to check if you are doing anything wrong but to really be able to spot what you are doing wrong one would have to film you and go frame by frame thus isolating any one particular challenge. What is a better spot than a bike park?

This may be different if you are an advanced rider trying to kick it up a notch but that is not what SammyJ is talking about so - irrelevant. N00bs can learn at bike parks everything they need to get started on easy trails.

Just my $0.05

Lady Gravity

07-18-2008, 03:21 PM

This may be different if you are an advanced rider trying to kick it up a notch but that is not what SammyJ is talking about so - irrelevant. N00bs can learn at bike parks everything they need to get started on easy trails.

thanks for your 0.05 :P but having been a "n00b" myself i can assure you that had i started out a bike park i never would have lasted. i learned on the lower trails of sfu (ie north road) and yes, at a clinic (womensonly) as well as on the coquitlam river trails, before they became paved.

we also did skills clinics at the local schools, but at some point you have to be able to take your skills to the trails. riding with a group - whether it be at an actual clinic, or a riding club - is a truly awesome way to improve your skills as you have the added confidence of a group of like-minded people who are only interested in seeing each other progress.

fwiw, bike parks do not have the same terrain as say fromme. i have heard of (and know) some women who love riding wbp, but are terrified of the shore.

i think the biggest issue you're all missing is that the trails are for everyone, whether you're paying to take a clinic (or get one on one instruction) or just out for a group ride. the biggest thing to learn here obviously is common courtesy while on the trails.

seriously sammyJ, if your issue is running into groups of people then maybe go ride where there aren't large groups ie not the north shore. of course, if such a thing exists....

SammyJ

07-18-2008, 03:27 PM

thanks for your 0.05 :P but having been a "n00b" myself i can assure you that had i started out a bike park i never would have lasted. i learned on the lower trails of sfu (ie north road) and yes, at a clinic (womensonly) as well as on the coquitlam river trails, before they became paved.

we also did skills clinics at the local schools, but at some point you have to be able to take your skills to the trails. riding with a group - whether it be at an actual clinic, or a riding club - is a truly awesome way to improve your skills as you have the added confidence of a group of like-minded people who are only interested in seeing each other progress.

fwiw, bike parks do not have the same terrain as say fromme. i have heard of (and know) some women who love riding wbp, but are terrified of the shore.

i think the biggest issue you're all missing is that the trails are for everyone, whether you're paying to take a clinic (or get one on one instruction) or just out for a group ride. the biggest thing to learn here obviously is common courtesy while on the trails.

seriously sammyJ, if your issue is running into groups of people then maybe go ride where there aren't large groups ie not the north shore. of course, if such a thing exists....

Ladyg, I said it before and I will say it again:

I have nothing against group rides, period.

My issue is the sense of entitlement that a paid clinic provides to its participants. The group that I ran into clearly felt that they had right of way because they were getting professional instruction. That should not be happening on a public trail, at least not at peak hours.

Fwiw, the night riding ban on Fromme came into effect largley due to commercial group rides exiting mtn. view park after dark. If it weren't for the commercialized aspect of this it would not be a problem.

How would you feel if a commercial dog walker came by and all the barking pooches scared your dog, causing her to run off and get lost on the mountain? Oh wait, that's allowed too. Sorry, never mind.

cyclist.ca

07-18-2008, 03:33 PM

You are welcome :D

I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree here, I will never know what it is like to learn on a group clinic on trails because I did private lessons with Endless and two of them were at Interriver Bike Park - got my confidence level WAY up there (comparatively speaking). You and I rode SFU last year when I just got my bike and you may remember how I used to ride (stop every few seconds etc.), after two lessons from Geoff, you should watch me now.

I see it differently, there are some skills that if mastered are transferable no matter where you ride. Say you ride skinnies at a park all day long - now you can pick a much better line and stick to it on the trails. You know what I mean?

SammyJ's beef is with people who act like they own the trail just because they paid for some clinic and they should behave just like anyone / everyone else OR go some place else.

Lady Gravity

07-18-2008, 04:00 PM

I see it differently, there are some skills that if mastered are transferable no matter where you ride. Say you ride skinnies at a park all day long - now you can pick a much better line and stick to it on the trails. You know what I mean?

you're kind of missing something .. both sammyJ and i are talking about "bike parks" ie whistler and silverstar, not "skills parks" like interriver and burnaby. i guess if the clubs held their clinics at those places as well (which they probably do) then someone would complain about that as well. i have no issue with skills parks either, but at SOME POINT you have to take your skills to the trails, and what better way than in a group setting.

i agree with the self-entitlement to the trails being the wrong attitude. hopefully with educating the riders in the groups that will change.

synchro

07-18-2008, 04:01 PM

i have to be honest with you - i can't ever see that happening, not for local riding clubs/clinics like endless, nsride, or muddbunnies (fwiw endless does do skills clinics at school gravel lots). it's just not feasible both from an economic and convenience standpoint. besides, the terrain at bike parks is nothing like what you will encounter on the shore (or any of the local mountains). and not to say that clinics provided that bike parks are bad in any way, but just that they are "different".

i'm actually kinda surprised at your narrow viewpoint and have to ask - where exactly did you learn how to ride?

narrow viewpoint? the guy just says he'd prefer not to get run off the trail by a pack of riders. i'm thinking you're taking more offense here than you should simply because me mentioned it was a group of women.

larger groups should not be taking over the trail and their leaders should be well aware of this. if not then maybe the group should be named so they don't make the same mistake again.

heckler

07-18-2008, 04:13 PM

Poor Heather, this thread isn't helping her find riding buddies.

i'd suggest you check out the forum on www.muddbunnies.com. lots of women riders of all levels and rides happen all the time.

Heather got the best advice from Lady G already.

josephus

07-18-2008, 04:13 PM

In general though, shouldn't the smaller group of riders yield to the bigger group? Of course ideally everyone should make room for everyone else.

cyclist.ca

07-18-2008, 04:18 PM

In general though, shouldn't the smaller group of riders yield to the bigger group? Of course ideally everyone should make room for everyone else.

Yes I understand, in every intellectual argument (on the trail or off) the one who is physically stronger is always right :D. I like the way you think he-he.

Lady Gravity

07-18-2008, 04:20 PM

narrow viewpoint? the guy just says he'd prefer not to get run off the trail by a pack of riders. i'm thinking you're taking more offense here than you should simply because me mentioned it was a group of women.

no, he said that clinics should be run in bike parks.

SammyJ

07-18-2008, 04:24 PM

no, he said that clinics should be run in bike parks.

In a perfect world. I also said it would be cool on public trails but not at peak hours.

sanrensho

07-18-2008, 04:24 PM

In general though, shouldn't the smaller group of riders yield to the bigger group? Of course ideally everyone should make room for everyone else.

Huh? Big pack owns small pack rule?

Is this a joke?

synchro

07-18-2008, 04:26 PM

no, he said that clinics should be run in bike parks.

he said a lot more than that. go back and re-read his post for some of his other options.

cyclist.ca

07-18-2008, 04:27 PM

Huh? Big pack owns small pack rule?

Is this a joke?

What do you mean a joke? There is another rule, you always yield to the guy in a bigger car... err... on a bigger bike :D :lol:

josephus

07-18-2008, 04:31 PM

Huh? Big pack owns small pack rule?

Is this a joke?

Someone once told me that on the water, the small boat always makes way for the big ship. That makes sense and seems fine to apply it to this situation as well. In either case I don't see how the opposite would make any more sense. Take in mind, that 90% of the time i ride solo, and the other 10% I ride with one or two other.

Lady Gravity

07-18-2008, 04:35 PM

he said a lot more than that. go back and re-read his post for some of his other options.

i read his other options and they're somewhat unrealistic ie people work during the day during the week, so their weekends are the only time to get out, that and during evenings during the week which are also the busiest times on the trails because again this is pretty when the majority of people ride.

in a perfect world there would be trails designated for "clinics only" but as people want to learn on "real" trails it's not really an option. maybe someday it will be.

i understand his frustration and i really think the only option here is to educate the ride leaders to transmit trail etiquette to their riders. it's really the best place to learn it in any event.

fwiw, i have been run over on seymour trails from riders in large groups, so i do know where sammyJ is coming from - they weren't in clinics but just groups of riders. pretty much why i dont really ride the shore much anymore. the trails i ride on are loamy and empty (except for bears)

sanrensho

07-18-2008, 04:46 PM

Take in mind, that 90% of the time i ride solo, and the other 10% I ride with one or two other.

Well, I ride 95% solo as well, and I don't expect to yield to two riders if I'm grinding up Old Buck/Baden Powell and they're going down. And neither do the polite riders expect me to yield in that situation.

Taking all things into account, the pack size should not factor into who yields. Under that principal, the biggest pack owns the trail all the time and you get the situation that SammyJ ran into.

josephus

07-18-2008, 05:25 PM

Well, I ride 95% solo as well, and I don't expect to yield to two riders if I'm grinding up Old Buck/Baden Powell and they're going down. And neither do the polite riders expect me to yield in that situation.

I agree with you.

Taking all things into account, the pack size should not factor into who yields. Under that principal, the biggest pack owns the trail all the time and you get the situation that SammyJ ran into.

Obviously big always wins gets you all sorts of weird behaviour that doesn't work (e.g. your uphill climb example), but I think that there are a number of situations where it's least disruptive for the smaller group to yield to the bigger group.

Ultimately though, I think we just need to remember that none of us owns these trails (unless of course we are rich and own a mountain) and remember the lesson learned from pre-school/kindergarten about about how to share.

sanrensho

07-18-2008, 05:43 PM

but I think that there are a number of situations where it's least disruptive for the smaller group to yield to the bigger group.

I agree with the least disruptive part, but then you run into the situation of 4-5 bikers (or hikers for that matter) hogging the trail, especially on MUTs. Needless to say, I could go on and on, and I'm sure you could too.

People just need to be more considerate and aware of other users.

Leaders of organized group rides can take a proactive role in this. Conversely, this type of trail etiquette is better learned by seeing and doing, rather than being told off the trail.