Fromme Parking Question/Poll

[Knnn]

If the District build the new parking/staging areas at the Dempsey/Braemar intersection, including a new connector trail to the second switch back, and at the top of Mountain Highway (near the water tanks) where would you prefer to park?

If the District did not build the new connector between the D/B parking lot and the 2nd switchback, would your preference be different?

[synchro]

where's the park at the mall and spend an extra 15min riding/walking up to the gate option.

[Knnn]

Damn don't sneak up on me like that! That was quick, posted before I even finished reviewing my first poll.

So I'll put you down as a reluctant 3 shall I?

[LeeLau]

I'd park right in front of Mountain View Park right under some wind chimes

[Knnn]

I'd park right in front of Mountain View Park right under some wind chimes

Sigh ...me holds head in hands, where is that train wreck image when you need it?

Please, pretty please, can I get some serious responses....or should I have posted this in NBR (no DON'T answer that, it was rhetorical).

[Couch_Surfer]

I'd park right in front of Mountain View Park right under some wind chimes

Sweet - tailgate party?

[synchro]

Sigh ...me holds head in hands, where is that train wreck image when you need it?

Please, pretty please, can I get some serious responses....or should I have posted this in NBR (no DON'T answer that, it was rhetorical).

i was serious. i mean really, if people are willing/able to climb/push 40-75 mins to get up the mtn what's another 15 min and make them park at the mall?

[Couch_Surfer]

i was serious.

So was I - I've been riding up there for 10 years and apparently I've been missing out on the tailgating.

[synchro]

So was I - I've been riding up there for 10 years and apparently I've been missing out on the tailgating.

you actually ride?

and here i thought you merely posted your drivel on the boards because your co-workers got tired of listening to you.

[Knnn]

i was serious. i mean really, if people are willing/able to climb/push 40-75 mins to get up the mtn what's another 15 min and make them park at the mall?

Agreed, BUT you know that aint going to happen so in the absence of that option you would ..... ?

[DrewM]

100% from a Mountain Biking perspective I say ban parking right down to the Mall. The current parking ban has anecdotally lead to less traffic. It will make riders fitter as well. Take that.

From a "trail user" perspective there has to be parking available for families etc. that want to hike. This parking already exists in the form of distributive parking at the bottom of the Dempsey/Braemar trail. There are no houses on Braemar directly affected by this distributive parking so it is the best of both worlds (it doesn't require tax $$$ and it doesn't require cutting up any forest for parking).

The hiking is also much better off Braemar then from the Mountain Hwy entrance so it is ideal.

All the issues in the past aside, it is a total joke that the DNV is throwing money at parking areas when a huge amount of distributive parking exists.

Status quo 100%. It costs nothing. It works fine.

[synchro]

Agreed, BUT you know that aint going to happen so in the absence of that option you would ..... ?

i'd say make it an option. rpo the whole shebang right down to lynn valley road as long as you could get special permits/keys for people doing trailwork so they can easily access the trails.

it would go a long way to zip up the yappy people (bikers and residents) and prolly help the trails out a fair bit too.

[DrewM]

i'd say make it an option. rpo the whole shebang right down to lynn valley road as long as you could get special permits/keys for people doing trailwork so they can easily access the trails.

it would go a long way to zip up the yappy people (bikers and residents) and prolly help the trails out a fair bit too.

Beat you to it :)

[derekt]

to post on this pole there would have to be, ride from family members house on Chamberlain Dr....

[synchro]

where's the park at the mall and spend an extra 15min riding/walking up to the gate option.

Beat you to it :)

doesn't look that way

[derwood]

I'd park right in front of Mountain View Park right under some wind chimes

Me too.

There are only 6 or so private roads in NV and that aint one of them.

I wonder if anyone has successfully fought a ticket from the RPO?

I dont mean bikers either,but a birdwatcher or something.

[taprider]

Status quo 100%. It costs nothing. It works fine.

yes, Dempsey Braemar as it is, is better for hiking

A new gravel road is not needed, would likely wreck the existing Dempsey Braemar trail, and would likely lead to residents complaining about more traffic and conjestion at the Dempsey Braemar intersection

[SammyJ]

Ah jeez.

If they are hell bent on building a parking lot, mountain highway would prolly be a better option. Reason being that most ppl consider that the start point of their ride on Fromme.

To build a new gravel road AND a parking lot will cost more than just a lot imho.

HowEVER, I agree with Syncro that the best thing for mtb on Fromme is to extend the RPO all the way to the flat land. It will reduce traffic on the streets AND the trails and cost very little (cost to issue tickets.)

[Sparkplug]

i was serious. i mean really, if people are willing/able to climb/push 40-75 mins to get up the mtn what's another 15 min and make them park at the mall?


Generally, not a problem but when I take our dog, it is much nicer to be close to the trail head. Climbing up with him on a leash isn't fun for either of us - and the down is a lot of pavement action for him.


Dempsey/Braemar is a great parking spot for those of us who ride with dogs - been using it for a long time already.

[DaveM]

I've said it a bunch of times.

Mt. Highway is not near wide enough to handle a mass amount of bike traffic. It's scary enough now when a buses passes you.

And it's not like mountain bikers hold a nice tight line like roadies, we're all over the place.

Having 100% of the cycling traffic riding up Mt. Highway would be a recipe for disaster, they would have to put in a cycling lane. That would likely cost more than parking, if it was even possible given the width of the road.

[Endless Biking]

For personal rides, I prefer to park at DB and ride up and ride back to vehicle for full loop.

For commercial purposes, I would prefer to use the Mountain Highway/Water Towers to drop kids off for access to lower trails, etc.

What about the kids? You expect a 8-10 year old kid to ride up from mall? What about you dog lovers? It's not just us as riders, there are lots of demographics to consider...

DB@EB

[Lady Gravity]

by parking at dempsey braemar are you meaning for people to ride up st. mary's? because i think that's a viable option - for the dog owners at least it's in the trees and not the road.

i dont think banning on-street parking is a good idea as you're affecting ALL user groups not just mountainbikers. isn't there a school near there as well, what about opening up parking there?

[heckler]

I park at or below dempsey and mountain, or the school on coleman, and will continue to do so, since it means I don't have to ride back up to the car at the end of the ride.

[heckler]

Don't forget to reply to the poll! This is usefull data for DNV to consider.

[KenN]

Put parking at the north end of St George's Ave (next to St. Albans park), re-route Lower Crippler, Digger, Boundary and Groovula to drop out into the new lot. Do a minor re-route at end of Executioner to lead into the powerline at that level, ultimately leading into the new lot.

Provide a climbing route that pops onto the gravel road just above Pink Starfish.

This provides a much better separation of traffic between neighbourhoods with nicer potential for a climbing route.

Kn.

[chris2]

I was going to vote park at RPO limits because I usually park lower down or on Braemar, or ride up from home. I realise this is not an option for kids, dogs, hikers, commercial operators etc so to be realistic I'm voting for a Mtn Hwy parking area. I would continue to park elsewhere, but it's needed for other users. There's already a good trail to access the BP from Dempsey/Braemar, yet despite a parking spot for only 4 or 5 vehicles, it's never full. That should be a sign to the DNV that people simply don't want to access the mountain from there, even if they put in a gravel road across the mountain (what happened to this being a study based on reducing environmental impact??). The DNV needs to seriously look at this if the mountain bikers feel so strongly against a Dempsey/Braemar parking area & access trail (road) which seems to be the consensus so far.

[Couch_Surfer]

Provide a climbing route that pops onto the gravel road just above Pink Starfish.

In all seriousness - I'd ride that in a heartbeat. I'd be able to get to it from my house and could leave the car at home completely.

[Oldfart]

The ONLY reason I drive to ride Fromme is to bring my dog. I park at Dempsey Braemar now and occaisionaly at Coleman school but lately I have decided to simply avoid Monica Craver Park and frog conservation area just cause. If I do not take my dog I ride from Home by Lion's Gate Hospital. I would have to live pretty far away to drive otherwise. The whole concept of driving to ride is silly to me. That is why I live where I do. That said, for those that wish to "ride" bikes that are so heavy and slow that they are almost unrideable uphill then bike specific parking is required.

[shirk]

Instead of building the lot first and the climbing trail second why not build the climbing route that starts over in the Dempsey Braemer area first and allow the dispersion of users to dictate where a lot is needed.

With the number of trails that finish over on that side of the mountain it makes sense to have a lot there, but as DrewM pointed out there is alot of room for parking along that area already that could handle the increase without getting in the way of houses. Make the side of the street with houses, RPO and the other side open parking.

I think the general hikers would use the climbing trail over the road and as it's been said that side really does offer better access to the mountain. Once people start using that area more if parking is needed then look at adding some. A simple kiosk with info and maps over there would also spur more use over Mountain Hwy.

[josephus]

If a parking lot is built, does that mean that the existing parking on streets will become off limits? And how many spots are they looking of putting in place?

Anyway, I vote to push the parking further down the mountain; the higher up the parking is, the more they are going to force users to take a particular trail and more use means more erosion.

[Tonestar]

I voted for the RPO, I don't want any parking lots built on Fromme.
If they move the RPO down further, or have parking in front of "Green Space" (ie. Braemar, Dempsey, etc..), I think that dispersion of traffic is better for everybody concerned. There are lots of trail entrances off of Braemar for hikers, dog walkers, etc.. so it shouldn't be an issue for anybody.

Personally, I ride from home most days, which is at 15th and Lonsdale, it takes me aprox 25 minutes to get to the gate on my big bike (8" x 8"), so I don't see an issue with making so called "mountain bikers" climb for 15 minutes from Lynn Valley Park.

[SixZeroSixOne]

There are two reasons why I've voted for Dempsey-Braemar parking:
Firstly, it's easier access for me than having to go through Lynn Valley (so, from my POV better than the Mountain Highway car park proposal) but
Secondly (and most importantly), Mountain Highway is just too damn un-pleasant to ride up both because it is steep and the traffic.

I'm also against dispersed parking in residential areas cos when I arrive back at the car, I want to be able to get changed - and,quite frankly, I think the residents are well justified in not wanting to see my hairy ass ;-)

[Tonestar]

I'm also against dispersed parking in residential areas cos when I arrive back at the car, I want to be able to get changed - and,quite frankly, I think the residents are well justified in not wanting to see my hairy ass ;-)

And you think the people in the parking lot want to see your "hairy ass"?

[Oldfart]

Does the Dempsey Braemar parking area fit in better with future housing development up Mountain Highway from the Districts perspective?? Does the District just want ot decrease the number of cars going up Mtn Highway to appease the local residents??

[Tonestar]

For personal rides, I prefer to park at DB and ride up and ride back to vehicle for full loop.

For commercial purposes, I would prefer to use the Mountain Highway/Water Towers to drop kids off for access to lower trails, etc.

What about the kids? You expect a 8-10 year old kid to ride up from mall? What about you dog lovers? It's not just us as riders, there are lots of demographics to consider...

DB@EB

DB, I think they should keep the Mtn Hwy/Water Tower drop off, you can still get the 8-10 year olds up there. They are riding up part way now, if their parents are parking near the RPO boarders.

I am just against cutting down a swath of trees anywhere on Fromme, next thing you know, there are going to be new sub-divisions going up the hill (like on Cypress). Once they start cutting, who knows where they go from there.

I guess my question is, what is wrong with the way it is right now?? If they want to limit the number of open spots per street/block to disperse things further, that would work fine too. The only problem I see right now, is everybody wants to park within a block (500 yards) of Mtn Hwy, so the parking problem is still concentrated into that area. If they made 4 spots at the end of each street, then another 4 spots another block away, it would solve the parking glut issue.
I have no idea if any of that makes sense or not, it turned into a ramble and I was talking on the phone while typing.

[TheGiggler]

if they just allowed some dispersed parking beside Green Space it would cost fuck-all and probably be quite effective. there's lots of Green Space all over.

the very last thing i want to see on fromme is a parking lot at the water towers.

most trails don't end here and i can see a lot of lazy shits shuttling up to the water towers and leaving a car at Dempsey-Braemar == a shit load of driving on mountain highway.

and don't even try to tell me this wouldn't happen. i've seen a few groups that drive up to the watertowers and then force one person to drive the car down and hike back up while the others wait. that's the same spirit that would shuttle from dempsey to the watertowers without a second thought.

[shirk]

For those suggesting the HTFU option and climb up from Lynn Valley need to note that this isn't intended as a lot just for bikes. Yes bikes are the majority user, but the DNV will need to consider all users to get any sort of funding passed.

We really should be pushing for upgraded access from DB area and use the existing Green Space for parking or build the lot under the power lines to the south side of Braemer. Over flow parking or those that want a few more feet of climbing can park at Princess Park.

But any key to that is building a proper mellow climbing route.

[connor]

But any key to that is building a proper mellow climbing route.

and making it DH-unfriendly.

[heckler]

I park at or below dempsey and mountain, or the school on coleman, and will continue to do so, since it means I don't have to ride back up to the car at the end of the ride.

and Marvel's going to vote this way on the poll too!

[mudhoney]

I voted for the Dempsey/Braemar option, given the consideration of the different demographics of trail users (hikers/dog-walkers). I don't think a large parking area is needed, and would prefer to see distributed parking along green space (not much different than it is now). As for a trail connector? Would like it to be fun single track (i.e. not a smooth gravel path) ;)

Definitely no lot at the top of Mountain Hwy, I'm with Giggler that this would encourage shuttling :rolleyes:

Personally, I prefer to park at the bottom of the RPO and ride up, or if I'm feeling energetic, ride from home (Burnaby).

[shirk]

Make the climbing route 4ft wide and crushed gravel. Yeah it's not the coolest, but it's inclusive to all users and the NSMBA should offer to lay it out.....in trade for no net trail loss.

[DaveM]

Make the climbing route 4ft wide and crushed gravel. Yeah it's not the coolest, but it's inclusive to all users and the NSMBA should offer to lay it out.....in trade for no net trail loss.

Good plan.


I never thought about the shuttling that Giggler mentioned. As lame as it is, I ride with some people that would do it.

Too bad there wasn't a route to get a climbing path all the way to the bottom.

[Fluid]

and Marvel's going to vote this way on the poll too!

I taught her that (after biggles taught it to me :))

EDIT: I chose option 3 because I read the question as where would *I* choose to park. And I would continue to park below the RPO since I already don't try to get as close as possible to Coleman as it is. But for the sake of hikers and those with kids and/or dogs, then a parking area at DB would be most beneficial IMO.

[TheGiggler]

For those suggesting the HTFU option and climb up from Lynn Valley need to note that this isn't intended as a lot just for bikes.


you can park right up at the edge of the forest all the way from Dempsey/Braemar to Mosquito Creek. hikers don't need a new climbing trail, there's already a ton of different ways up.

[shirk]

you can park right up at the edge of the forest all the way from Dempsey/Braemar to Mosquito Creek. hikers don't need a new climbing trail, there's already a ton of different ways up.

I agree with you.

I also think there are a number of issues that are keeping the average joe and jane hiker from using them. First is a clear trail head and signage. Second is steepness. Not all hikers want to blast straight up the mountain.

I'd love to see Fromme with zero parking, no maps or signs and all talk to focus on how rad CBC and Neds are so everyone goes and rides somewhere else, but we know that isn't going to happen.

My comments are suggestions that IF the DNV is going to do anything thats what I feel is the best compromise.

[synchro]

Generally, not a problem but when I take our dog, it is much nicer to be close to the trail head. Climbing up with him on a leash isn't fun for either of us - and the down is a lot of pavement action for him.


Dempsey/Braemar is a great parking spot for those of us who ride with dogs - been using it for a long time already.



I've said it a bunch of times.

Mt. Highway is not near wide enough to handle a mass amount of bike traffic. It's scary enough now when a buses passes you.

And it's not like mountain bikers hold a nice tight line like roadies, we're all over the place.

Having 100% of the cycling traffic riding up Mt. Highway would be a recipe for disaster, they would have to put in a cycling lane. That would likely cost more than parking, if it was even possible given the width of the road.



For personal rides, I prefer to park at DB and ride up and ride back to vehicle for full loop.

For commercial purposes, I would prefer to use the Mountain Highway/Water Towers to drop kids off for access to lower trails, etc.

What about the kids? You expect a 8-10 year old kid to ride up from mall? What about you dog lovers? It's not just us as riders, there are lots of demographics to consider...

DB@EB



Put parking at the north end of St George's Ave (next to St. Albans park), re-route Lower Crippler, Digger, Boundary and Groovula to drop out into the new lot. Do a minor re-route at end of Executioner to lead into the powerline at that level, ultimately leading into the new lot.

Provide a climbing route that pops onto the gravel road just above Pink Starfish.

This provides a much better separation of traffic between neighbourhoods with nicer potential for a climbing route.

Kn.

I was going to vote park at RPO limits because I usually park lower down or on Braemar, or ride up from home. I realise this is not an option for kids, dogs, hikers, commercial operators etc so to be realistic I'm voting for a Mtn Hwy parking area. I would continue to park elsewhere, but it's needed for other users. There's already a good trail to access the BP from Dempsey/Braemar, yet despite a parking spot for only 4 or 5 vehicles, it's never full. That should be a sign to the DNV that people simply don't want to access the mountain from there, even if they put in a gravel road across the mountain (what happened to this being a study based on reducing environmental impact??). The DNV needs to seriously look at this if the mountain bikers feel so strongly against a Dempsey/Braemar parking area & access trail (road) which seems to be the consensus so far.



if they just allowed some dispersed parking beside Green Space it would cost fuck-all and probably be quite effective. there's lots of Green Space all over.

the very last thing i want to see on fromme is a parking lot at the water towers.

most trails don't end here and i can see a lot of lazy shits shuttling up to the water towers and leaving a car at Dempsey-Braemar == a shit load of driving on mountain highway.

and don't even try to tell me this wouldn't happen. i've seen a few groups that drive up to the watertowers and then force one person to drive the car down and hike back up while the others wait. that's the same spirit that would shuttle from dempsey to the watertowers without a second thought.

For those suggesting the HTFU option and climb up from Lynn Valley need to note that this isn't intended as a lot just for bikes. Yes bikes are the majority user, but the DNV will need to consider all users to get any sort of funding passed.

We really should be pushing for upgraded access from DB area and use the existing Green Space for parking or build the lot under the power lines to the south side of Braemer. Over flow parking or those that want a few more feet of climbing can park at Princess Park.

But any key to that is building a proper mellow climbing route.

you can park right up at the edge of the forest all the way from Dempsey/Braemar to Mosquito Creek. hikers don't need a new climbing trail, there's already a ton of different ways up.

lota of great points here people, good to see.

like it or not, we havce to accept that a large portion of users will park as high up as they can. so whether it's lazy bikers, young bikers, hikers and dog bring-a-longers there are going to be people that want/need easy access.
the routes up the mtn already exist, albeit tho that a few of them could be improved. what's not clear for many is how to access these routes.

if we use the ditributed parking that already exists AND the DNV:

a. put in some excellent signage/trailmaps to show people these routes
b. spent money to fix these routes up

there would be no need for any parking lots cut into the mtn.

[SixZeroSixOne]

Genuine Q:
What is the zoning around Dempsey/Braemar?

Is it ever likely to turn into another housing sub-division? If so, the trees will be cut down. So would a car park mean there is less liklihood of houses being built there and maybe less tree felling overall?

[KenN]

One added semi-related comment. RPO areas have no reason to exist. If RPO zones are put into effect because of the horrible, nasty bikers, then to be fair, RPO should be in effect for every residential area across the region. The problems with the "nasty" bikers are experienced everywhere.

I've lived a block away from a soccer area, had soccer moms completely block my driveway while they walk their kids down the block. No way in/out of the drive. Same thing happens around churches, shopping areas, community centres, libraries and sports arenas.

Folks, there are bylaws to deal with partiers/nuisance, public changing/nudity, public alcohol consumption and improper parking. Maybe the District should enforce these bylaws instead of RPO zones, which are a huge inconvenience, even for the residents. If you own a house in the RPO area, you get a limited number (2 I think) of passes to give to friends for parking on the street. What if you live on McNair and have a lot of guests? Does everyone have to park way down Mtn. Hwy and walk all the way up??

Kn.

[shirk]

What if you live on McNair and have a lot of guests? Does everyone have to park way down Mtn. Hwy and walk all the way up??

Kn.Yes. Especially if all your guests have bike racks on your cars.

You could even live up on McNair and happen to own a bike shop and park your logo'd vehicle with RPO permit near an know anti-biker that happens to love frogs and said anti-biker will complain to the residence association.

[heckler]

I guess the tailgate party is tonight?

[wizardB]

Where's the option to climb on my bike at home and ride up,shuttle Seymour if you want but you should ride up Fromme!From the mall at least.

[Knnn]

Having 100% of the cycling traffic riding up Mt. Highway would be a recipe for disaster, they would have to put in a cycling lane.

One of the many reasons I believe the District would like to see more traffic go over to D/B, is better road infrastructure and access.

What about the kids? You expect a 8-10 year old kid to ride up from mall? What about you dog lovers? It's not just us as riders, there are lots of demographics to consider...
DB@EB

Agreed, this is why I think the District wants two parking areas, because there are so many different demographics to consider and surprisingly, :rolleyes: not all are biking related.

by parking at dempsey braemar are you meaning for people to ride up st. mary's? because i think that's a viable option - for the dog owners at least it's in the trees and not the road.

i dont think banning on-street parking is a good idea as you're affecting ALL user groups not just mountainbikers. isn't there a school near there as well, what about opening up parking there?

I believe the intent is to put in a new connector road from the D/B parking area up to the second switchback (based on plans presented at public meetings).

The school idea was tried, but people like to park as close to the hill (i.e. RPO boundary) as possible and the parking lot was not used much.


I park at or below dempsey and mountain, or the school on coleman, and will continue to do so, since it means I don't have to ride back up to the car at the end of the ride.

Even when many trails end at the BP, close to D/B? Therefore there would be no need to ride back up, unless you wanted to finish off on lower ladies, skull, NH?




I'm also against dispersed parking in residential areas cos when I arrive back at the car, I want to be able to get changed - and,quite frankly, I think the residents are well justified in not wanting to see my hairy ass ;-)

This will always be a problem with the RPO or dispersed parking. There will always be user/resident conflicts, which the District have had enough of after the 2002-2003 debacle. So the only solution they see is to separate the two. Right or wrong, it will solve that particular problem.

if they just allowed some dispersed parking beside Green Space it would cost fuck-all and probably be quite effective. there's lots of Green Space all over.

the very last thing i want to see on fromme is a parking lot at the water towers.

most trails don't end here and i can see a lot of lazy shits shuttling up to the water towers and leaving a car at Dempsey-Braemar == a shit load of driving on mountain highway.

Looking at a satellite image of the North Shore, I'm note sure there is much in the way of green space. Sure there is quite a bit over by D/B, but there is bugger all over by mountain. The only green space I see near Mountain Highway and the woods is right opposite Mountain View Park, and you know how sensitive that particular area is.

Sorry, I can't seem to follow the shuttle argument, if the intent is to finish the ride over at D/B because most trails dump out there. If there is an easy ride up from the D/B parking area to the second switch back, why would you shuttle over to Mountain?

The only reason I could see people using the Mountain Parking lot was if they wanted to ride Bobsled, Floppy Bunny, Natural High, Griffin, Kirkford/Crinkum, Skull Lower Ladies or GMG. These represent about 20% of the trails (?) and I wonder what percentage of the average ridership use these trails?

I could see the opposite shuttle if people wanted to leave a car at the Mountain Parking lot, start at D/B for an easier ride up but finish off on Skull, Lower Ladies, 7th/Crinkum or GMG. I can see the D/B to 7th to Crinkum to Mountain parking lot and drive back to the D/B lot being a fairly popular shuttle. Whether the shuttling would result in an overall increase in traffic up mountain hwy considering a lot of traffic is likely (IMHO) to be redirected to the D/B area, is a tough call. My suspicion is that most riders will want to use the D/B staging area despite what the hard core say about continuing to park at the edge of the RPO

Make the climbing route 4ft wide and crushed gravel. Yeah it's not the coolest, but it's inclusive to all users and the NSMBA should offer to lay it out.....in trade for no net trail loss.

I suspect the District want something even wider to accommodate emergency vehicles and not limit access to one point. I like your idea of a horse trade.


A number of riders have expressed an opinion that they want to continue to park at the edge of the RPO. Fast forward a couple of years and there are now 25/30 space parking areas located at the top of Mountain Hwy and in the D/B area. The D/B stagging area may also have a bike wash stand and some small commercial enterprise (possibly a drink/food stand). Seriously are you really going to continue to park down at the RPO? If not, then which parking area do you think you would prefer?

I personally hate the idea of tearing down trees for parking, but how else can you;

Reduce user/resident conflicts;
Enhance easy access for all users to the mountain; and
Improved access for emergency vehicles (ambulance and fire)?

Lots of interesting opinions and dialog here, thanks and keep it coming.

[wizardB]

What about the kids? You expect a 8-10 year old kid to ride up from mall? What about you dog lovers? It's not just us as riders, there are lots of demographics to consider...

DB@EB
Why not my son has been doing it since he was 6 and doesn't consider it a big deal it's just the price of the ride.

[Bean]

Genuine Q:
What is the zoning around Dempsey/Braemar?

Is it ever likely to turn into another housing sub-division? If so, the trees will be cut down. So would a car park mean there is less liklihood of houses being built there and maybe less tree felling overall?

Additional housing development at B/D has been in the works for years. That little stub of a street above the Braemar/Princess intersection wasn't someone making a mistake or a nice little spot to park a car or two. I don't know the time line on this, but I would be very surprised if it doesn't happen in the next 5 years.

[Bean]

I voted B/D and am surprised more people haven't done the same. I actually favour lots at both B/D and Mtn Hwy, here's my thinking:

1) No shuttling required - you park at B/D, ride up the new trail to the 2nd switch back, ride up Mtn Hwy to some trail off the 6th (maybe you ride something off the 7th first), enjoy a great ride down the hill, pop out on Braemar, ride the very short distance back to the car. Rinse (at bike wash), repeat.

2) Enjoy all the elevation you've climbed - No more riding down Dempsey and losing all that glorious elevation. If you park at B/D, the edge of the RPO, or ride to Fromme via Braemar (like I do) and ride a trail off the 6th you know what I'm talking about.

3) Other trail users - Right now the RPO isn't that big a deal for people biking, it is way easier to ride up the hill than it is to walk. Want to go for a hike off Mtn Hwy today? I hope you enjoy the extra 1/2 hour walking up the pavement before your hike and the 20 minutes walking back down after your hike. Not everyone who hikes or walks their dog, or what have you, can reasonably be expected to add almost an hour of steep climbing/descending to their trip. Older people, younger people, people with dogs, etc. The same people that have issues with the extra walking up/down Mtn Hwy have issues with the trails that currently start off B/D. Sure, you can say if you can't hike the steep stuff go somewhere else... but those same people could enjoy a nice walk on the Baden Powel off the top of Mtn Hwy, Mtn Hwy itself, or Mountain View if they could only get to it. Before the RPO there were more hikers in the area.

4) Dispersed parking is a no go with the District - It would take enforcement that just simply isn't there. Witness the 2 hour parking restrictions on Coleman. The signs are about the only enforcement there is. Dispersed parking would also do very little for the traffic and noise related conflicts with residents.

5) Two lots are better than one because the trails finish in generally two different locations. The lower trails come out in the are around the top of Mtn Hwy while the trails off the 6th come out near B/D. The lots should be sized according to the useage of the trails they service.

6) Self Interest - I live near the top of Lonsdale and ride over to Fromme. I've tried many, many different trails to try and avoid losing all that glorious elevation coming down Dempsey to Mtn Hwy, but it is still at least 15-20 minutes faster to the trail heads off the 6th to ride along Braemar, down Dempsey, and up Mtn Hwy. I'd love a connector from the B/D area to the 2nd switch back even though I'd never use the lot. Please clue me in if you know of trail that is reasonably rideable uphill (or even quickly walkable) from the top of St. Mary's over to Mtn Hwy.

7) The B/D area is slated for additional housing development. Those of you looking at the current green area on the north edge of Braemar and seeing a good parking spot should look a little further into the future when there will be houses there. The little stub of a road above the Braemar/Princess intersection isn't a mistake. It would be much better to have a parking/staging area constructed in there before the houses go in rather than trying to convince homeowners to accept one after the fact. Why did the District originally want to put the lot in Braemar Park? Probably so they could sell more lots on the other side of the road.

8) Emergency Access - Touch wood it hasn't happened to me or anyone while I've been riding with them, but serious accidents happen and getting people out of the woods can be really difficult, time consuming, and dangerous. An access road from B/D to the 2nd switchback wide enough to get an ambulance or NS Search and Rescue vehicle up could be a life saver.

Anyone still reading? Well, that's my thinking on things.

[Spaz]

Generally, not a problem but when I take our dog, it is much nicer to be close to the trail head. Climbing up with him on a leash isn't fun for either of us - and the down is a lot of pavement action for him.


Dempsey/Braemar is a great parking spot for those of us who ride with dogs - been using it for a long time already.

My thoughts exactly. If I know I coming out near Dempsey and Braemar I park on that side as well. i hate running my dog down Dempsey to get back to Mtn Hwy. Riding/walking up Dempsey trail to Baden Powell and down LL's or Baden Powell to the gait takes about 25 minutes and you get a nice little ride out of it. If i exit at MVP then i park near the RPO.

[LeeLau]

Sorry, I can't seem to follow the shuttle argument, if the intent is to finish the ride over at D/B because most trails dump out there. If there is an easy ride up from the D/B parking area to the second switch back, why would you shuttle over to Mountain?

The only reason I could see people using the Mountain Parking lot was if they wanted to ride Bobsled, Floppy Bunny, Natural High, Griffin, Kirkford/Crinkum, Skull Lower Ladies or GMG. These represent about 20% of the trails (?) and I wonder what percentage of the average ridership use these trails?


I think you grossly underestimate how lazy bikers can be. No matter how ridiculous it sounds - some people will shuttle Fromme by parking as high as possible. After all, SFU is shuttled and that's about as low as you can go

[Knnn]

I think you grossly underestimate how lazy bikers can be. No matter how ridiculous it sounds - some people will shuttle Fromme by parking as high as possible. After all, SFU is shuttled and that's about as low as you can go

Actually no, I agree with you completely. You only have to ride/build for a little while to understand this. I just think the inherent lazyness of many will result in the majority of riders riding from and returning to D/B just because it is the easiest option, unless they want to do Crinkum etc as noted above.

SFU is different, the shuttle gets you to the top of the trails, same as Cypress and Seymour, where as on Fromme the drive only gets you to the bottom.

[synchro]

6) Self Interest - I live near the top of Lonsdale and ride over to Fromme. I've tried many, many different trails to try and avoid losing all that glorious elevation coming down Dempsey to Mtn Hwy, but it is still at least 15-20 minutes faster to the trail heads off the 6th to ride along Braemar, down Dempsey, and up Mtn Hwy. I'd love a connector from the B/D area to the 2nd switch back even though I'd never use the lot. Please clue me in if you know of trail that is reasonably rideable uphill (or even quickly walkable) from the top of St. Mary's over to Mtn Hwy.


i have the perfect solution for you.

Drewm has picked up the torch and been doing a great job in turning LOC into a rideable uphill trail. from the top of saint mary's you can do the abelard canyon climb and then take LOC up and you end up half way between the 5th and 6th switchbacks.

you could also just do the push up st. george's.

[Lady Gravity]

I think you grossly underestimate how lazy bikers can be. No matter how ridiculous it sounds - some people will shuttle Fromme by parking as high as possible.

yeah but is that REALLY shuttling? it's just driving to a trailhead, which is pretty common.

[Testy]

Why don't the residents just get "$5.00 Park on my lawn" paddles like the folks who live around the PNE. They could raise money for frogs and owls and all kinds of things.

[Sketchy Flanders]

I voted for D/B. It seems the best option that gets traffic off Mtn Highway.
Mtn Highway is already too busy and I don't see a parking lot at the upper gate (or wherever it is being contemplated up there) making things any better.
RPO all the way down to the mall is unworkable and is a bit selfish in that it makes the mountain less accessible to the walkers/hikers.
I'm still a little leary about this access "trail" up to the 2nd switchback but I'm sure, if done properly (i.e. not a superhighway and not hacking up the trails in that area) I could tolerate it.
What I would like to see, in the way of polls, is how do the mountain bikers get up Fromme now. Who parks at D/B and climbs Rooter's re-route to DB to BP? Who parks on Coleman (Upper Lynn Elementary) and rides up? Who parks elsewhere at the RPO border and rides up? Who does the semi-shuttle and drops off at the upper gate? And who, aside from Synchro, parks at Lynn Valley Mall and has a Quiznos sammy before heading up?

[Bryce]

I don't support any option that requires removing trees, paving forestland, or putting in wide gravel trails. There is plenty of street parking up there already, one empty block after another. I support dispersed islands of public parking.

right now I park just below the elementary school and pedal up

[Big Dipper]

Votes a three way split.......perfect, and just the point. Spread out the riders and you've solved half the problem.

[MyLes]

I think it would be pretty sweet to have a connector from D/B to the 2nd switch back

[J0SH]

Put parking at the north end of St George's Ave (next to St. Albans park), re-route Lower Crippler, Digger, Boundary and Groovula to drop out into the new lot. Do a minor re-route at end of Executioner to lead into the powerline at that level, ultimately leading into the new lot.

Provide a climbing route that pops onto the gravel road just above Pink Starfish.

This provides a much better separation of traffic between neighbourhoods with nicer potential for a climbing route.

Kn.

Thats a great idea. I ride up St. Gouges, but going along the BP and then riding up that road is just too much riding just to get there. But a path that went to pink starfish would be great. I've just started to 7th or Upper Oilcan and it would be nice to have a simple ride up.

[Tonestar]

I think it would be pretty sweet to have a connector from D/B to the 2nd switch back

I am seriously afraid of this concept of a "connector trail" from D/B to the 2nd Swtich. If the district builds it, it will probably be a gravel access road, not a trail, this would be the most cost effective way for them to build and maintain it, and they are going to be about the bottom line.

I am for "CUT NOTHING, PAVE NOTHING", leave it as is, lets just go riding (hiking, dog walking, running...) it's about the riding and if you aren't riding (hiking, running...) because of accesibility now, then I don't think we need your opinion (harsh but true) on this subject. I think we are trying to appease the existing users and I don't think any of us are really complaining about how things are now.

[Oldfart]

I am seriously afraid of this concept of a "connector trail" from D/B to the 2nd Swtich. If the district builds it, it will probably be a gravel access road, not a trail, this would be the most cost effective way for them to build and maintain it, and they are going to be about the bottom line.

I am for "CUT NOTHING, PAVE NOTHING", leave it as is, lets just go riding (hiking, dog walking, running...) it's about the riding and if you aren't riding (hiking, running...) because of accesibility now, then I don't think we need your opinion (harsh but true) on this subject. I think we are trying to appease the existing users and I don't think any of us are really complaining about how things are now.

I agree to a point. If I had my druthers I prefer parking on Hoskins in front of Mountainview Park, but that isn't going to happen. And the parking isn't about the riding, it's about the residents and too many people parking in their neighbourhood and making spectacles of themselves.

[maudification]

I guess I am getting sick and tired of all this of this stuff and I finally have to say somehting.

The district could have resolved all these issues years ago by banning all parking in the RPO area and set up parking in or around the Lynn Valley Community Center area. All riders should ride up... I have been riding Fromme for over 20 years and this issue has only really risen in the last 5 due to the large increase in usage.

I think it is time for mountain bikers to step up and take some resposibility and ride their butts up the hill. As far as 8 - 10 year olds go, they can do it as well. I have lead a many a groups of kids up fromme and getting them used to climb will only benefit them in the long run. Do you want to have lazy kids who think the only way up the mountain is to drive.... Lame for sure.

[Knnn]

I guess I am getting sick and tired of all this of this stuff and I finally have to say somehting.

The district could have resolved all these issues years ago by banning all parking in the RPO area and set up parking in or around the Lynn Valley Community Center area. All riders should ride up... I have been riding Fromme for over 20 years and this issue has only really risen in the last 5 due to the large increase in usage.

I think it is time for mountain bikers to step up and take some resposibility and ride their butts up the hill. As far as 8 - 10 year olds go, they can do it as well. I have lead a many a groups of kids up fromme and getting them used to climb will only benefit them in the long run. Do you want to have lazy kids who think the only way up the mountain is to drive.... Lame for sure.

Sure, I can understand some of your points, but what about the other issues the District are also trying to deal with.

Improving access for emergency vehicles

Improving access for hikers and dog walkers

Improving access for residents and visitors


It's quite the juggling act they have to perform and its not just about mountain biking.

[maudification]

There other secondary parks near the area that have excellent access to the Fromme area. i.e Princess Park, Lynn Headwaters. These parks all have very good access to the Fromme Mountain area. There are a lot of existing alternatives that no one has even considered yet. Even School parking lots that remain closed all summer could be used for over flow parking if needed.

I don't understand you point of access for emergency vehicles, sorry. I have pulled a many of body off of that mountain and never had any issue with emergency vehicle access. They can get very close to you via the exsisting road.

As far as residents go, I believe if they live in the area they can obtain a parking permit to park where ever they want in that area. So not an issue for them. I am a resident of the North Shore and have been my whole life and I have no problem with the restrictions and I understand the residents who do live close to these trails access points complaints. I am OK with parking a couple of KM's from the trail access point if this will keep the trails open.

[SammyJ]

There other secondary parks near the area that have excellent access to the Fromme area. i.e Princess Park, Lynn Headwaters. These parks all have very good access to the Fromme Mountain area. There are a lot of existing alternatives that no one has even considered yet. Even School parking lots that remain closed all summer could be used for over flow parking if needed.

I don't understand you point of access for emergency vehicles, sorry. I have pulled a many of body off of that mountain and never had any issue with emergency vehicle access. They can get very close to you via the exsisting road.

As far as residents go, I believe if they live in the area they can obtain a parking permit to park where ever they want in that area. So not an issue for them. I am a resident of the North Shore and have been my whole life and I have no problem with the restrictions and I understand the residents who do live close to these trails access points complaints. I am OK with parking a couple of KM's from the trail access point if this will keep the trails open.

Your points are not without merit but there is a LOT of history that you are not aware of.

[maudification]

Like what?

I don't believe you know my background into this and the history of it is something that I am very aware of I promise you that.

[SammyJ]

Like what?

I don't believe you know my background into this and the history of it is something that I am very aware of I promise you that.

Okay. Fair enough I have no idea who you are.

See below for alink to the ARSS:

http://dnv.org/article.asp?c=988

Oh, and Knnn IS aware of the history and is very close to the situation, as are many of the others who have commented on this thread.

[Sharon]

There other secondary parks near the area that have excellent access to the Fromme area. i.e Princess Park, Lynn Headwaters. These parks all have very good access to the Fromme Mountain area. There are a lot of existing alternatives that no one has even considered yet. Even School parking lots that remain closed all summer could be used for over flow parking if needed.



These have been considered.

The other parks are already heavily used and cannot accommodate additional biker traffic especially on weekends when it is necessary. They too get complaints from people living near them about their current usage and parking issues.

There was an open house regarding Princess Park to upgrade the park - trails, ammenities, parking - and when the residents there learned that the new parking facilities at Princess Park would also be used for Fromme mountain bikers there was instant resistance to this upgrade.

School parking was being used in 2003 and was supposed to continue to be available during the summer but didn't for some reason. You'll have to call the District Parks Dept. to ask about that.

[chris2]

I am seriously afraid of this concept of a "connector trail" from D/B to the 2nd Swtich. If the district builds it, it will probably be a gravel access road, not a trail, this would be the most cost effective way for them to build and maintain it, and they are going to be about the bottom line.

I believe they want it to be accessible by ambulance as an alternative access point (has there ever been an issue getting up mtn hwy to the 2nd switchback???) which means wide gravel road. Please someone correct me if I'm wrong... I hope I am but am pretty sure I heard this stated at a meeting.

[Knnn]

I don't understand you point of access for emergency vehicles, sorry. I have pulled a many of body off of that mountain and never had any issue with emergency vehicle access. They can get very close to you via the exsisting road.

The issue of improved emergency vehicle access is just something I am repeating from public meetings. I presume this need has been identified through discussion between DNV staff and the various emergency services involved and is therefore there is a valid reason even if it's not obvious to us. May be there is a concern about access if there were a forest fire localized on the east side of the hill, I dunno really, just speculating.


I believe they want it to be accessible by ambulance as an alternative access point (has there ever been an issue getting up mtn hwy to the 2nd switchback???) which means wide gravel road. Please someone correct me if I'm wrong... I hope I am but am pretty sure I heard this stated at a meeting.

Yeah I heard the same thing Chris, a gravel road suitable for emergency vehicle access.