View Full Version : Leipheimer following Bruyneel to Astana?
Ninja
09-17-2007, 08:37 PM
cyclingnews.com (http://www.cyclingnews.com/news.php?id=news/2007/sep07/sep18news)
hrumph. grumble grumble.
They better turf Kloden, he's the biggest "clean" doper left in cycling.
I'm not liking this one bit!
baloom
09-18-2007, 12:13 AM
I'll believe it when I see it happen. Velonews carried a piece where Bruyneel sounded off about calling it quits with cycling (indicating that he intended on leaving on a high note). Perhaps if Astana throws enough money at him......
As for Leipheimer, it seems unlikely that he would tarnish his excellent reputation by taking up with perceived cheaters. I can only imagine that he is in a position to write his own ticket now and should have several offers to choose from.
As for Leipheimer, it seems unlikely that he would tarnish his excellent reputation by taking up with perceived cheaters.
Leipheimer's rep isn't that great...he's linked to Michele Ferrari but it's not as heavily publicised as say...Lance's relationship with Ferrari.
http://www.cyclingnews.com/news.php?id=news/2006/jul06/jul06news4
baloom
09-18-2007, 08:08 PM
Gasp....So Leipheimer and Armstrong are both dirty then. I suspected as much and now after reading the linked article my suspicions are most certainly supported. Bastards, the both of them.....
Ninja
09-18-2007, 08:26 PM
Gasp....So Leipheimer and Armstrong are both dirty then. I suspected as much and now after reading the linked article my suspicions are most certainly supported. Bastards, the both of them.....
Ha, just give up, and accept, that they all cheat one way or an other!;)
baloom
09-18-2007, 10:07 PM
uncle....
Gasp....So Leipheimer and Armstrong are both dirty then. I suspected as much and now after reading the linked article my suspicions are most certainly supported. Bastards, the both of them.....
Oooo...internet sarcasm...nice one. Glad you able to understand and use the linky provided. But really, you come off sounding like these guys are without fault and it is sooo not the case. I like Leipheimer but I'm in no way giving him the benefit of the doubt when it comes to doping....or the rest of them for that matter. Clearly, Bruyneel is very good at running a doping program and that's probably why he's going to Astana...and taking Contador and Leipheimer with him for the ride. So think what you may but anyone at that level in Europe is not clean.
baloom
09-20-2007, 12:05 AM
...be merciful and stop chipping away at the thin veneer that is my enthusiam for this sport.....I cannot believe that all pro-tour riders dope in order to ride at that level any more than I can believe that Gretzky could only have scored as he did by pure magic. Such a statement is baseless much as the article that was linked. I don't think I am being unduly naive, I simply want to make decisions about what I believe that is evidence-based. Show me facts and I will clam up and go give myself and my enthusiam a swirly for good measure.
I don't believe that all Protour riders are doping...just the ones at the top. If there were facts to show...we would all know for a certainty who is and isn't clean and we wouldn't be having this discussion. I choose, instead, to look for things that seem out of place or are an interesting coincidence - such as the article I posted earlier - as way to gauge who is clean and who isn't. I think anyone associated with Bruyneel is on the sauce. Just because nobody on the team ever tested positive doesn't mean they weren't doping...it just means that Bruyneel is smart, very smart and knows the system well enough to manipulate it. I'm not trying to destroy anyone's enthusiasm for the sport - I still follow it closely - but I feel that we all need to realize what is going on over there and push for the correct resolution. I guess I misinterpreted your enthusiasm as turning a blind eye to the doping issues in the pro peloton...
Ninja
09-20-2007, 09:21 PM
Well I hate to do this too you Baloom, you're a good man... but! I have some reading for you too do!
roadbikereview.com (http://forums.roadbikereview.com/showthread.php?t=107856&highlight=gregstef)
Then download this mp3 file of Greg's conversation with Lances Oakley rep! Yeah I know Greg Lemond is a Quaker! and completely out to lunch... but!
http://www.4shared.com/file/24532391/fe77b775/gregstef.html?cau2=403tNull
Just more doubt for the fire! I liked the part about Watts vs VO2 max. It kinda makes me wounder!
shorelocal
09-21-2007, 09:50 AM
Lance will never go down in the near future ... he's just too big of a name in ProCycling to take a fall. Once he's out of the limelight and someone else has taken the helm for cycling's image in N.America, the truth may come out.
Well I hate to do this too you Baloom, you're a good man... but! I have some reading for you too do!
roadbikereview.com (http://forums.roadbikereview.com/showthread.php?t=107856&highlight=gregstef)
Then download this mp3 file of Greg's conversation with Lances Oakley rep! Yeah I know Greg Lemond is a Quaker! and completely out to lunch... but!
http://www.4shared.com/file/24532391/fe77b775/gregstef.html?cau2=403tNull
Just more doubt for the fire! I liked the part about Watts vs VO2 max. It kinda makes me wounder!
Nice find Ninja!! Lemonde is def a bit of a weiner these days but holy gossip Batman!! LOL @ "I wonder what George's new baby will look like because he's on so many drugs."!!!!
TylerDurden
09-24-2007, 02:50 PM
How is Johan going to Astana a bad thing for cycling? I hope he takes the gig.
Looks like it's pretty much locked...Bruyneed, Contador, and Leiphiemer are going to Astana.
http://www.velonews.com/race/int/articles/13438.0.html
Contador and Leipheimer may follow
By Andrew Hood
VeloNews European correspondent
Filed: October 2, 2007
Johan Bruyneel is poised to take over the reins at the troubled Astana team and will bring heavy hitters Levi Leipheimer and Alberto Contador with him for the 2008 season.
Bruyneel's 'retirement' may have been shorter than you thought
Sources close to Bruyneel told VeloNews that the Belgian director is finalizing negotiations with the Kazakh government and will assume control of the ProTour team.
A formal announcement is expected in the coming weeks. Bruyneel could not be reached for comment Tuesday.
Last month, the Belgian sport director confirmed reports that Kazakh officials approached him to take over the squad in the wake of devastating doping scandals involving team stars Alexandre Vinokourov and Andrey Kashechkin. Both tested positive for homologous blood doping and sent the team's future spinning into doubt.
Team sponsors - a consortium of major Kazakhstan industries - have vowed to continue to underwrite the team's estimated $15 million-a-year sponsorship, despite the high-profile scandals.
Bruyneel also said last month that if he accepts the Astana offer, he would not want to be the team's primary sport directo. Instead, he would assume a managerial role involving less travel.
Experienced and trusted sport director Dirk Demol as well as Russian Viatcheslav Ekimov, who joined as a director after retiring in 2006, told VeloNews they would also prefer to stay with Bruyneel. Many of the team's mechanics, soigneurs and support staff would likely follow the move.
Many riders are waiting with bated breath to see what Bruyneel does, as only a handful of Discovery Channel racers have secured contracts for the 2008 season in what is an increasingly tight market.
Contador told VeloNews last month he was would prefer to stay with Bruyneel if the Belgian moves to Astana, and would bring teammates Sergio Paulinho and Benjamin Noval with him.
The Belgian website Sporza reported Monday that Leipheimer has already signed a letter of intent to join the team. Others linked to a Bruyneel move are Tomas Vaitkus and Janez Brajkovic.
If Bruyneel comes on board, that will likely mean the departure of current team manager Marc Biver and some members of the management staff. If the past is any indication, upper-management shakeups typically see a complete changeover of directors and managers to help restore a team's image and reputation.
The future of the team's ProTour status would also remain a question mark. Cycling's grand tours never officially recognized Astana's ProTour status in 2007, but invited the team to race all three major stage races anyway. The team's invitation to the Vuelta a Espaņa, however, was withdrawn on the heels of the Vinokourov/Kashechkin positives.
The 43-year-old Bruyneel, considered one of modern cycling's most successful tacticians, led Lance Armstrong to a record seven consecutive Tour de France titles during 1999-05. He won an eighth Tour crown from behind the wheel this year with Contador taking the yellow jersey and Leipheimer finishing third.
In August, Bruyneel made the surprising announcement that he would retire from cycling after team officials couldn't secure a title sponsor to take over the Discovery Channel team beyond the 2007 season.
Sources said the challenge of rebuilding the Astana program as well as assuring employment for dozens of staff and riders might tip Bruyneel toward accepting a deal.
sanrensho
10-02-2007, 10:48 AM
Essentially, then, it sounds like Astana is set to become Discovery II.
Note that Bruyneel will also be reunited with ex-Discovery riders Benoit Joachim and Paolo Savoldelli. Depending on which riders they bring over, Bruyneel could almost field a full Discovery squad in any given race.
From a competitive standpoint, they would need to dump some of the dead weight on that team and pick up some Spanish climbers to do well in the Grand Tours (assuming they can get wild card entries).
I can't really be excited about this yet. I have suspicions about Bruyneel and gang and the fact that he is going to team with a terrible doping rep make me even more suspicious...and Leipheimer going a long boggles my mind as well. I don't know if he's 100% clean but I've generally considered him to be one of the "cleaner" riders.
sanrensho
10-02-2007, 12:12 PM
^^^If anything, it sounds to me like Astana is cleaning house and breaking clean by essentially taking over Disco's infrastructure.
We'll have to see if Astana will continue to be the Phonak of pro cycling.
I don't see why Bruyneel deserves any special suspicion, since most people suspect them all at this point. Aside from Team Slipstream, which teams are you going to trust? T-Mobile (Sinkewitz)? Belgian/Dutch teams ? French teams (also got nailed in the TdF)?
^^^Well...both Hamilton and Landis are former Postal/Disco riders that have been busted for doping and it's not like they just started doping when they moved over to Phonak. Lets not forget that Bruyneel signed Basso even though there was more than circumstantial Puerto evidence against him. He has since been found guilty. Contador and Davis are also implicated in Puerto. They have been removed from the case in Spain but it's not certain that their cases will be closed forever. There is also plenty of info that has been leaked in various formats - granted some of it is in the form of recorded insider phone calls, text messages and such but these people wouldn't talk about that stuff unless there was some truth behind it. All that stuff is good enough for me to be suspicious of him.
Cleaning house? Maybe...I can't say that I am 100% correct in my suspicions because it's all circumstantial/heresay but it still smells fishy to me.
sanrensho
10-02-2007, 01:15 PM
All that stuff is good enough for me to be suspicious of him.
Yeah, but how is Bruyneel/Disco more suspicious than any other ProTour team?
They all dope, right?
Yeah, but how is Bruyneel/Disco more suspicious than any other ProTour team?
They all dope, right?
Why isn't he more suspicious? Why doesn't he deserve to have the magnifying glass on him? Not a lot of other directors had the super team Bruyneel did and claim to be doing it all by clean living.
I didn't say they all dope. Do you think they all dope?
TylerDurden
10-02-2007, 01:51 PM
From a competitive standpoint, they would need to dump some of the dead weight on that team and pick up some Spanish climbers to do well in the Grand Tours (assuming they can get wild card entries).
Contador: Climbing, check. Grand Tour GC Contender, check. Spanish, check.
sanrensho
10-02-2007, 02:01 PM
Contador: Climbing, check. Grand Tour GC Contender, check. Spanish, check.
Conventional wisdom says Contador needs a few strong support climbers to be with him on the last climbs, especially now that he will be closely marked.
Leipheimer did that admirably this year, and maybe Contador can do it alone, but it would help to add one or two pocket climbers like Beltran or Egoi Martinez.
sanrensho
10-02-2007, 02:10 PM
Why isn't he more suspicious? Why doesn't he deserve to have the magnifying glass on him? Not a lot of other directors had the super team Bruyneel did and claim to be doing it all by clean living.
I didn't say they all dope. Do you think they all dope?
I have no idea if they ALL dope--no one does, but the veil of suspicion hangs over everyone (and every team) at this point.
Having said that, I see nothing unique about Bruyneel claiming to be clean. Every team (and rider) claims to be clean, before they're caught that is. Bruyneel isn't particularly unique in that respect.
^^^Of course...you are right...nobody does other than the riders/teams that are doping. I was a huge supporter of Postal/Disco/Lance etc from the beginning but after Hamilton, Landis, Basso, Puerto crap, listening to the Walsh interview, that LeMonde phone conversation etc...I feel that the sport would be better off without Bruyneel and those like him. And...I'll be the first one to eat my words if for some reason it's proven beyond a doubt that he has always run a clean ship.
sanrensho
10-02-2007, 02:46 PM
And...I'll be the first one to eat my words if for some reason it's proven beyond a doubt that he has always run a clean ship.
That'll never happen, of course, because it's impossible to prove non-doping.
The sport is so tainted at this point that almost any knowledgeable observer would have to conclude that doping is pervasive. I would say most road cycling fans have already reached this conclusion, and by the same token, would agree that there was also some degree of doping at Disco (regardless of whether they were caught red-handed).
Only the fan-boys will insist that Armstrong/Disco/Bruyneel never doped or encouraged doping. So I don't see Bruyneel as being any more guilty or complicit than anyone else involved in cycling at that level.
At the root of the problem, they will never manage to eliminate doping to any serious extent, except to manage it and catch the most egregious offenders. Still better than what we had before.
I think the good directors/managers still outweigh the bad by a good margin but even they will have riders doping behind their backs bringing the whole organization down...to quote your examples...T-Mobile and Cofidis during the tour. We'll see more teams going in the CSC, Slipstream, T-Mobile direction as soon as the old guard it out.
I'm not a totally negative bastard...I just want Bruyneel among others to get the heck out of pro cycling in Europe.
sanrensho
10-02-2007, 04:29 PM
^^^Whoah. How does Team CSC escape your wrath?
Basso was involved in Operacion Puerto while with Team CSC and under Riis' watch. Not to mention that Team CSC continue to be led by Mr. 60% himself.
Riis and all the other old school DS'es are just as bad as you make Bruyneel out to be.
Riis was Mr 60% but he came clean and fessed up. He is now a business man and he realizes that for cycling to survive (and so he can keep making big bucks) the doping culture needs to be eliminated. He clearly doesn't tolerate doping on his team which is proven by the Basso situation, the fact that Rasmoosen wasn't invited back to the team after his stagiere contract ended, and the independant blood profiling he instituted for his team. CSC is standing behind him. That says a lot these days.
wallyjames
10-02-2007, 11:08 PM
At the root of the problem, they will never manage to eliminate doping to any serious extent, except to manage it and catch the most egregious offenders. Still better than what we had before.
Agree. It is impossible (and undesirable) to run 24-hour out-of-competition enforcement on athletes. And that's what it would take to eliminate suspicion. The war on doping is as unwinnable as those other wars on terror and drugs.
Agree. It is impossible (and undesirable) to run 24-hour out-of-competition enforcement on athletes. And that's what it would take to eliminate suspicion. The war on doping is as unwinnable as those other wars on terror and drugs.
I'll go a long with that....it's like anything illegal...where theres a will, theres a way. I don't expect cycling to be 100% clean in the future...nobody would. I think the Vuelta organizers made a good move with their out of competition testing program leading up to the Vuelta. Why not make mandatory rider blood profiling part of the UCI rules that teams have to abide by?
sanrensho
10-03-2007, 10:34 AM
Hey Six, here's hoping Santa brings you a new pair of socks this year:
http://www.cyclingnews.com/photos/2007/tech/shows/interbike07/interbike077/MZ-IB07_sockGuy2.jpg
Hey Six, here's hoping Santa brings you a new pair of socks this year:
http://www.cyclingnews.com/photos/2007/tech/shows/interbike07/interbike077/MZ-IB07_sockGuy2.jpg
Nice find dude!!! I've had my eye on one of these...
http://www.rideclean.net/site/files/images/RC%20mini%20sleeve%20Natasha%20bigger.preview.jpg
stuffed with the hottie of course...
baloom
10-04-2007, 10:09 PM
Hey dude, that's my sister so watch you "p's and q's". She's 15 and has no right hand (which she is very self-concious about)....
Ninja
10-04-2007, 11:05 PM
Hey dude, that's my sister so watch you "p's and q's". She's 15 and has no right hand (which she is very self-concious about)....
She's got a stump!
I find that soo hot!
baloom
10-05-2007, 12:13 AM
...her lovely lady stump
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